Have ESO become pay to win ?

exeeter702

Gidorick wrote: »

There will be people who ALWAYS say ESO is NOT pay to win, no matter what. These people will ALWAYS justify why a Crown Store offering is NOT pay to win. They will put on their ZOS color glasses and use a decision tree that always leads to "Not pay to win"...

For me it's REALLY simple:

Consider two players of equal skill who spend equal time in the game. One buys extra stuff in the Crown Store (ESO+, DLC, XP scrolls, etc), one doesn't... These two players meet in PVP. Does the player who buys Crown Store items have an advantage on the battlefield over the player who does not buy items in the Crown Store.

If they do... ESO is pay to win.

Whoever made that chart needs to educate themselves seriously.

P2w has a very simple very clear meaning. Over the years people (I'm going to assume it's a younger post league of legends generation of gamers) morphed the meaning of what p2w ACTUALLY is. Paying cash to circumvent or otherwise expedite a grind or time gate is not pay to win. Additionally having the option to purchase consumables (like tri pots or repair kits in this game) with actual cash yet can be obtained via in game methods is as well not p2w.

P2w spawned from awful Asian market pc bang geared games that were f2p and offered statistical advantages to players who chose to spend cash. Said advantages were literally impossible to achieve /obtain by regular in game methods ie. Weapons that would be the absolute BIS only found on the cash shop and having no alternatives in game.

While what we have now most commonly is cosmetic things and convenience items. It still leaves a bad taste in player's mouths. "Why should bob get to level cap faster than i because he decides to pay for experience boosters?" (if ambrosias were not in this game, exp scrolls would still not be p2w), it is a fair complaint sure but thst does not make it p2w.

There is the messy rabbit hole logic that I hate bringing up but..... for some people "winning" might be simply collecting all the pets and vanity items (I am of the camp that devs determine the win conditions of their game and no one else). Would said player feel his game is p2w when certain vanity items are exclusive to cash shop? He might feel it is but the answer is simply that it's not.

Again, p2w is not a subjective term. It has a very simple very clear meaning and eso is absolutely not p2w, period.

Gidorick

hehe.. you guys like that chart a lot! THANKS GOOGLE!

@exeeter702 , you say the P2W is NOT a subject term and has a very simple and very clear meaning... Is this clear the meaning:

"A game in which players who spend more money are offered statistical advantages that are in no way otherwise obtainable in-game." ?

Does the above statement derived from your comments need more to properly clarify the meaning of P2W?

Unsent.Soul

Jesus people... the OP isn't even around anymore, great job they did at trolling...

Just let it go...

exeeter702

Gidorick wrote: »

hehe.. you guys like that chart a lot! THANKS GOOGLE!

@exeeter702 , you say the P2W is NOT a subject term and has a very simple and very clear meaning... Is this clear the meaning:

"A game in which players who spend more money are offered statistical advantages that are in no way otherwise obtainable in-game." ?

Does the above statement derived from your comments need more to properly clarify the meaning of P2W?

Well technically that is an accurate summary. I'm not sure what your angle is.

Reevster

Actually the only ones who "win" are those who don't spend hundreds of dollars on a game that never ends.

Player A spends $1000s on said game in a year.

Player B spends $200 on said game in a year via Subbing or store.

Players A looks back at all the money spent after a year and kicks himself.... or has to leave his parents basement to look for work to pay for all the money he wasted on a game.

Players B looks back at the bargain he/she got for one years of entrainment .

I know which player I want to be in a years time.....

sagitter

Axorn wrote: »

Best weapons drops from vMSA best dps monster set Molag Kena drops from vWGT and other items and they all bound and all DLC content so how come someone can compete againts a dps having these items ? And we know all DLC items will be bound in future too. Raid leaders always choose the best DPS for trials without these items there is no way to compete. For example i usually do 25-27k dps with my sorc he only uses crafted items but other dps in the party was doing 32k dps cuz he/she was wearing molag kena.

Did you know that molag kena and other monster sets are going to be purchasable on Cyrodiil merchant right?
Anyway , for your and gidorick definition of p2w, should include in the list than WOW , Daoc Lotro, all of the bigs mmo of the present and the past , and listen Listen! also Skyrim! right because with skyrim dlcs you could have new abilities and armor + weapon sets!!!! Seriously guys, where did you lived untill now?

Gidorick

exeeter702 wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

hehe.. you guys like that chart a lot! THANKS GOOGLE!

@exeeter702 , you say the P2W is NOT a subject term and has a very simple and very clear meaning... Is this clear the meaning:

"A game in which players who spend more money are offered statistical advantages that are in no way otherwise obtainable in-game." ?

Does the above statement derived from your comments need more to properly clarify the meaning of P2W?

Well technically that is an accurate summary. I'm not sure what your angle is.

I like how mistrusting people on the forum and internet in general are. This isn't the first time that's happened to me.

I genuinely want to know!

I said on the FIRST page of this thread that I struggle with this definition and right now I'm thinking ESO is pay to win. But... I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong and change my opinion if I'm presented with compelling evidence.

Surprise!

right now... I'm thinking that P2W has a sort of scale... like

1. Not at all Pay to win
2. Marginally Pay to win
3. Somewhat pay to win
4. Moderately pay to win
5. Extremely pay to win
6. Entirely Pay to win

I wouldn't put ESO at level 1... but it's NOT level 6. Heck, I'd even argue against it being level 3. I think it's pretty squarely at level 2. You can't get much less pay to win than ESO currently without becoming NOT pay to win... but it's still pay to win.

heh... it's kind of like the furry scale...

Even at 5%... it's still a furry.

If you want to take this conversation off-thread @exeeter702 I'd totally be down for continuing this conversation via private messages. I genuinely want to discuss this. And I mean the whole pay to win thing... not the furries...

Oh, and to all the "EVERY GAME IS PAY TO WIN!" posts. Sorry, but I disagree. The conversation of Pay To Win BEGINS at the point of players gaining access to the game. It doesn't matter if they get the game for free or if they buy it... once the players get the game, it is at this point the game is able to go pay-to-win or not.

Flynch

ESO is also 'marginally' a third-person shooter.

What's important is where in the sand you draw the line, and that tends to become more biased with how you feel about the rest of the game. The happier you are, the more likely you are to ignore, overlook or simply not worry about subjective issues like P2W.

And the heavy accent needs to be placed firmly on 'subjective' here.

Lysette

The whole issue is about something what is not interesting to the majority of people in this game. To me the win is in having an enjoyable time and eventually make friends, the joy of exploring and "living" in an awesome fantasy world, with which I can interact and develop a character role in it. And that is what ESO is for the majority of players, I guess - nearly half of them have played TES games since Morrowind (there is a recent poll about it on this forum) and what they enjoy cannot be measured in terms of "win" and "competition" at all. They pay to play and pay to have fun - to me it does not seem, that those complaining about P2W have a lot of fun, but instead a lot of anger and aggression - why are those playing the game at all?-

ScooberSteve

Imma just going to chill here with my popcorn and watch the noobrage.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

The definition of pay to win is to buy something the other player cannot get unless he also buys it. Like selling gear on the store better than anything you can get in the game. Buying DLC or paying for a game is not pay to win. XP boosts etc also not pay to win.

Karacule_Fairystar

grind/farm to win perhaps~

Mikoto

If ESO DLC is P2W then EVERY SINGLE MMO IS P2W because you get BiS from expansions that you PAY FOR. /endrage

Kalifas

I think Gidorick nailed the definition. I like the model in ESO, it could be worse like Swtor's or something lol.

Personofsecrets

the clear answer is yes

Volkodav

Axorn wrote: »

Jaeysa wrote: »

No. Buying an expansion to receive access to its' content is not the same as pay to win. Pay to win is if those weapons were on the crown store and you could purchase them.

Yes its not directly but its pay to win to me

That's to you.Not everyone would agree.

Axorn wrote: »

gresiac wrote: »

Axorn wrote: »

Best weapons drops from vMSA best dps monster set Molag Kena drops from vWGT and other items and they all bound and all DLC content so how come someone can compete againts a dps having these items ? And we know all DLC items will be bound in future too. Raid leaders always choose the best DPS for trials without these items there is no way to compete. For example i usually do 25-27k dps with my sorc he only uses crafted items but other dps in the party was doing 32k dps cuz he/she was wearing molag kena.

you want everything for free ?

ofc i dont but items that have big impact on game should be accsesible by everyone otherwise its pay to win

No,Pay to win is if you can buy things in the crown store that will give you a heavy advantage ingame.
I havent seen a thing in the crown store that does that yet.How does buying a DLC give you an unfair advantage? If you want it get it,.if you dont,continue playing as you have.
Sorry,not Pay to Win.

EIGHTS

No. you just need to cheat to win.

EdmundTowers

Well, first off ESO is not a free to play game. That's where you normally hear the term pay to win. Where you can play the game for free, but unless you pay to unlock items, you can't beat it. Hence, pay to win. ESO is not pay to win in this sense.

BUT! If a game developer releases an expansion to their game, that includes new items, abilities, classes, levels, whatever. And:

1)These new things are better than what was included in the vanilla game.
2)Players who don't buy the expansion do not get access to these things.
3)Players who play the vanilla game are pvp'ing and/or playing content with the players who bought the expansion.

At that point the game becomes pay to win in a competitive gaming sense. A player is able to pay to gain access to an advantage that another players cannot gain unless they pays as well.

I've played other games that involved expansions that include "better things". They either make these better things available to the players of the vanilla game as well, or they separate the vanilla player base from the expansion player base. For obvious balance reasons. Apparently, ESO did neither.

So yes, from a competitive gaming sense ESO is pay to win. Buy DLC and you are able to gain an advantage over those who did not buy it, when it comes to any sort of competition between these two types of players (pvp for example).

There are worse games, I know, but an advantage is an advantage. Doesn't matter what other MMO's have been doing. Doesn't matter that game developers are running a business and have to make money somehow (BTW, this is the usual argument used to defend all those really terrible pay to win games, don't use it. Having played some of those terrible games, it makes me sick to see it).

Jaeysa

So. So far, our definitions of pay to win:
1. You can buy things in the crown store that will give you a heavy advantage in game. This would include experience scrolls and tri-pots. Things that you can get in game but have to work(at getting the gold for) it.
2. You can buy items on the crown store that give you a mechanical advantage that you cannot otherwise get in game. So if they started selling weapons that are better than those earned in VMA.
3. You can buy items on the crown store that give you a mechanical advantage that you can get by playing the game. So if they started selling VMA weapons on the crown store.
4. You can buy access to DLCs that allow you to earn items that give you a mechanical advantage(Wrothgar and Vet MA).

ESO is pay to win in the cases of 1 and 4.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Gidorick wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

hehe.. you guys like that chart a lot! THANKS GOOGLE!

@exeeter702 , you say the P2W is NOT a subject term and has a very simple and very clear meaning... Is this clear the meaning:

"A game in which players who spend more money are offered statistical advantages that are in no way otherwise obtainable in-game." ?

Does the above statement derived from your comments need more to properly clarify the meaning of P2W?

Well technically that is an accurate summary. I'm not sure what your angle is.

I like how mistrusting people on the forum and internet in general are. This isn't the first time that's happened to me.

I genuinely want to know!

I said on the FIST page of this thread that I struggle with this definition and right now I'm thinking ESO is pay to win. But... I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong and change my opinion if I'm presented with compelling evidence.

The FIST page (Let's add that one to your concept repository )

On topic

"A game in which players who spend more money are offered statistical advantages that are in no way otherwise obtainable in-game." ?

I would add "statistical advantage necessary to complete the game's goal or beat the game" and that definition would be quite fitting to me.

The problem with ESO is that we don't all agree on the meaning of "win" because we have different goals.

- The player who stays in the game for his guild and social contact and loves running dungeons and stuff with his friends will "win" just by having his social requirement fulfilled => no P2W in this case, you don't buy friends.

- The "RP" or "fashion-show" player will want to be able to "make his character" perform and show as much as possible in the game, possibly make him charismatic and famous and sought after, that's what "win" will mean to him => to him the game is clearly P2W. Luckily, most of these people are not "competitive" by nature but rather the cooperative-interactive kind.
(Speaking of which, I wonder why they don't sell new emotes in the crown store, that would make tons of money to ZOS).

- The "streamer" would seek to "win" by making interesting content and widen his audience. I don't think there's anything in the Crown Store that could help him achieve this, so it's not P2W to that type of player.

- The "trader" who enjoys making gold, playing the market... to him, "win" would mean having the most gold of the entire playerbase, creating a monopoly... nothing in the Crown Store will help him either so it's not P2W (rather the opposite, whenever crown store stuff comes in direct competition with ingame tradeable stuff, i.e. ambrosia).

- The competitive PvE player : for him, "winning" means fighting for N°1 in the leaderboards. Do they need some specific BiS items ? Yes. Are these items available in the crown store ? No. But you have to buy the DLC or at least sub for a month to get them. So yes it's P2W, not because some boosting item is directly purchasable in dollars, but because it's gated. I don't think anyone in this category minds : staying "competitive" implies "in the game's current state" and it's obvious that a competitive PvE player will have access to all DLCs anyway.

- The competitive PvP player : for him, "winning" is being able to 1v1, 1vX, zergVzerg as many other players as possible, dominate his campaign, become and stay emperor, etc... I'm less versed in this community so I should let them answer : do you feel there's any aspect of the game that is P2W for competitive PvP players ?
(for me I'd say yes, referring to the riding lessons scrolls : a fast horse IS a MUST in Cyrodiil and nothing in the game lets you bypass the 2 months needed to max your horse, so these scrolls for me are a convenience item in PvE but P2W in PvP).

.

kenjitamura

I don't care about the semantics surrounding P2W but I do want to voice an opinion. So far I've found the game to have a refreshing amount of content not behind either a pay wall or unbearably long grind that requires cash infusions.

The last two MMO's I played before ESO were Rift and Neverwinter. Neverwinter is unapologetically Pay-to-win with everything in game pretty much being on the game store and the only real sane way to play the game is to spend a bit of dough every week to circumvent absurd grinds.

And Rift was at the spot two years ago that ESO is now. After having just gone free-to-play the Rift store mostly only had cosmetic items and armor that was at least two tiers below BiS. Today Rift is selling all of its BiS gear on the store, has many essential perks behind a pay-wall, and has implemented obnoxious grinds on just about anything they can to keep people buying stuff to avoid them.

As long as ESO maintains its current pay-model I'll consider it leaps and bounds above the last two MMO's I played. I'll continue my subs/buying DLC's if it keeps it like this. If it starts that slippery slope Rift went on though I'm out of here.

EdmundTowers

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

- The competitive PvP player : for him, "winning" is being able to 1v1, 1vX, zergVzerg as many other players as possible, dominate his campaign, become and stay emperor, etc... I'm less versed in this community so I should let them answer : do you feel there's any aspect of the game that is P2W for competitive PvP players ?
(for me I'd say yes, referring to the riding lessons scrolls : a fast horse IS a MUST in Cyrodiil and nothing in the game lets you bypass the 2 months needed to max your horse, so these scrolls for me are a convenience item in PvE but P2W in PvP).

The OPs statement pretty much says it all

"For example i usually do 25-27k dps with my sorc he only uses crafted items but other dps in the party was doing 32k dps cuz he/she was wearing molag kena."

"Best weapons drops from vMSA best dps monster set Molag Kena drops from vWGT and other items and they all bound and all DLC content so how come someone can compete againts a dps having these items ?"

anitajoneb17_ESO

EdmundTowers wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

- The competitive PvP player : for him, "winning" is being able to 1v1, 1vX, zergVzerg as many other players as possible, dominate his campaign, become and stay emperor, etc... I'm less versed in this community so I should let them answer : do you feel there's any aspect of the game that is P2W for competitive PvP players ?
(for me I'd say yes, referring to the riding lessons scrolls : a fast horse IS a MUST in Cyrodiil and nothing in the game lets you bypass the 2 months needed to max your horse, so these scrolls for me are a convenience item in PvE but P2W in PvP).

The OPs statement pretty much says it all

"For example i usually do 25-27k dps with my sorc he only uses crafted items but other dps in the party was doing 32k dps cuz he/she was wearing molag kena."

"Best weapons drops from vMSA best dps monster set Molag Kena drops from vWGT and other items and they all bound and all DLC content so how come someone can compete againts a dps having these items ?"

OP was talking PvE. Are you talking about Molag Kena in PvP ???
Seriously guys, does ANYONE need Molag Kena (2 pieces) to win in PvP ?
Does anyone even use this monster set in PvP ?

Again I'm not a specialist in PvP by far so I'm genuinely asking. Molag Kena is a must for damage stacking builds. I don't think any viable PvP build is build around damage stacking...

EDIT : by the way , the whole discussion about Molag Kena being pay-gated is obsolete because the helmet will be avaible for purchase ingame soon.
Regardless, I'm still interested in knowing about the importance of the use of this set in PvP ;-)

.

Bossdonut

Until I can buy gear for real cash it's not pay to win. I don't consider xp boosts pay to win, or that food they sell. All that does is make you take less time to hit max level.

If you consider DLC/Expansions pay to win well then sadly you are an idiot.

Stikato

It was a lot more pay 2 win with uncapped CPs:

Cash -> Crowns -> Xp pots -> More CPs -> Stats -> Win

Now? Meh, it's more like Pay-To-Advance-To-Cap-Quicker. The cash shop is pretty tame.

anitajoneb17_ESO

And as always, everyone seems to have forgotten that the first and possibly only true P2W item in ESO is the imperial edition, only way to create an imperial and their OP racial passives... it was there long before the game went B2P, and long before the crown store even existed.

Almost looks like people are more forgiving of a sub-based (forced-to-pay) game that a B2P/optional sub model.

.

gen_reynard2050

exeeter702

Stikato wrote: »

It was a lot more pay 2 win with uncapped CPs:

Cash -> Crowns -> Xp pots -> More CPs -> Stats -> Win

No...

anitajoneb17_ESO

exeeter702 wrote: »

Stikato wrote: »

It was a lot more pay 2 win with uncapped CPs:

Cash -> Crowns -> Xp pots -> More CPs -> Stats -> Win

No...

Actually, yes, to a certain extent.
Take two people with the same game time.
Player A who uses XP scrolls will have 50% more CP
Player B1 who doesn't use XP scrolls nor ambrosia will never catch up
Player B2 who uses ambrosia will have to sacrifice some game time to collect ingredients for making ambrosia, or to collect gold for buying ambrosia.

Player B2 will be closer to player A than player B1 but he'll never catch up either.

But that's out now with cap anyway.

exeeter702

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Stikato wrote: »

It was a lot more pay 2 win with uncapped CPs:

Cash -> Crowns -> Xp pots -> More CPs -> Stats -> Win

No...

Actually, yes, to a certain extent.
Take two people with the same game time.
Player A who uses XP scrolls will have 50% more CP
Player B1 who doesn't use XP scrolls nor ambrosia will never catch up
Player B2 who uses ambrosia will have to sacrifice some game time to collect ingredients for making ambrosia, or to collect gold for buying ambrosia.

Player B2 will be closer to player A than player B1 but he'll never catch up either.

But that's out now with cap anyway.

Again no. The advantage to spending cash to level up faster is not the argument. That is obvious.

The point is that none of which you said is in any way, shape or form p2w.

Player A gets it faster, this is a convenience plain and simple.

Player B has equal access to the exact same buff in game, wether he has to farm gold or mats to purchase it or has an unlimited supply via a generous guild, it does not matter, he is not excluded from said buff therfore is not at an inherent disadvantage for chosing not to spend real money.

By your logic, subscribing to eso plus is also p2w.