Have ESO become pay to win ?

DanteVFenris

Axorn wrote: »

Best weapons drops from vMSA best dps monster set Molag Kena drops from vWGT and other items and they all bound and all DLC content so how come someone can compete againts a dps having these items ? And we know all DLC items will be bound in future too. Raid leaders always choose the best DPS for trials without these items there is no way to compete. For example i usually do 25-27k dps with my sorc he only uses crafted items but other dps in the party was doing 32k dps cuz he/she was wearing molag kena.

its not pay to win as you do not need that armour to win in the content that is not pertained to the dlc's.

Chillic

Lysette wrote: »

Chillic wrote: »

I wouldn't have any gear at all if I didn't buy the game... that's not fair!!!

Stop being a child, life is that way, you have to pay for things you want, just love is for free, but even that takes effort to maintain.

How did you not get the sarcasm in this? If I spell it out any better, it ruins my beautifully constructed comment

sylviermoone

Lysette wrote: »

The more I read about how pvp people think, the less I am interested to ever try pvp in this game.

What does this "discussion" have to do with PvP players?

ral

Pay to win in eso definition is able to buy maelstrom weapons, monster sets etc in crown store aka massive short cut to become powerful like a lot of mobile games. The fact you still have to grind and work hard for your drops is no way near pay to win in my opinion.

bedlom

Its not the best system going but I would not call it p2w.

Waseem

ZOS_MollyH wrote: »

Multiple posts have been removed from this thread for being abusive and insulting to other players, promoting conspiracy and misinformation.

There is a lot of good discussion and feedback going on in this thread, so we will open it back up, but any further infractions may result in the thread being locked and disciplinary action.

thanks for deleting my thread which sums the real stuff thats happening and keeping the other threads which mostly discuss BS

Equilibriator

no one going to answer my question? :P

im trying to make it clear to everyone what pay to win means in a few steps

x3lumin8x

Axorn wrote: »

Best weapons drops from vMSA best dps monster set Molag Kena drops from vWGT and other items and they all bound and all DLC content so how come someone can compete againts a dps having these items ? And we know all DLC items will be bound in future too. Raid leaders always choose the best DPS for trials without these items there is no way to compete. For example i usually do 25-27k dps with my sorc he only uses crafted items but other dps in the party was doing 32k dps cuz he/she was wearing molag kena.

Maybe you should stop paying attention to how much damage you do and just play the game. So what if something takes a little longer to kill. This min/max mindset of people is just lame. People want everything fast and now. Blah!

Leandor

Aaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh...

"Has every MMO ever been pay to win since we had to buy expansion packs and am I now entitled to sue every MMO distributor for psychological abuse?"

I can't even...

jarrandub17_ESO

Boy if you feel this way on pay to win/buy to win, then you will really get your teeth kicked when you buy the expansions, run the dungeons till your bleeding out your eyeballs and still don't get the Kena helm...

siddique

You guys should play Kabam games and see people spending thousands of dollars over flash games buying cores worth 50 dollars each to upgrade one building one level which doesn't even give you a new graphic, only slightly better stats.

Buying DLC is not pay-to-win. You can't expect a company to give you gbs worth of new content for free. I have both DLCs and will get new ones as they come, but I still don't have vMA weapons, because I can't finish the damn thing still.

If those weapons were in the crown store, I would have bought them and that would have made it pay to win. Which would have sucked and gone against the company's policy too.

Elsonso

Equilibriator wrote: »

pay to win is very simple to analyse: does real money give you something that free ppl can never compete with.

Ultimately, I think that this is the measure that ZOS might be using.

The @Gidorick chart is misleading, seemingly designed to increase the chances that one will arrive at "Pay to Win"... likely for use as a justification for whatever belief the person who created it held. I would hesitate to trust it.

XP boosters are not pay to win. As a matter of fact, the player using the XP booster is at a base disadvantage. Two new players, one using XP boosters constantly and one that does not, arrive at 100,000 XP. The characters have the same XP but they are not equal. The player that used XP boosters has 50% less in-game time on the character. They have had 50% less time to build skills and collect equipment. All other things being equal, the player that did not use the XP booster should have an advantage.

Look at the Wailing Prison bypass. When the character steps out on the street, the one that has gone through the Wailing Prison will have better gear that is more attuned to how the character will be played, and has loot that can be sold. The other one has whatever limited junk can be looted in the house they start in, plus a limited amount of free gear to approximate what they would have received in the Wailing Prison. They might even be one level lower. By my estimation, the bypass character is not viable and needs to be developed before becoming viable. Naturally, this is acceptable because the bypass character has resources from the account that can be used.

Just because you can buy your way to the level max, or buy your way to the level max faster, does not mean you have a better character and can win. Shortcuts are not necessarily OP.

WoW players realized this quickly when the Level 90 boost came out. The players who created boosted characters did not know how to play them and were equipped with default equipment. They were easy targets for other players.

Mashille

No

robkrush

Axorn wrote: »

Best weapons drops from vMSA best dps monster set Molag Kena drops from vWGT and other items and they all bound and all DLC content so how come someone can compete againts a dps having these items ? And we know all DLC items will be bound in future too. Raid leaders always choose the best DPS for trials without these items there is no way to compete. For example i usually do 25-27k dps with my sorc he only uses crafted items but other dps in the party was doing 32k dps cuz he/she was wearing molag kena.

I believe what you described there is actually called "PLAY to Win". Yes, you have to play ESO to win. You have to grind and farm and then throw yourself at the arenas and learn their tactics. Then repeat it over and over until you finally get that perfect drop. THEN your ready go to PVP and cut down the enemy like your cutting wood. Nah, just kidding, level 40 night blades will still wipe your v16 vMA character.

bryanhaas

It really seems that saying ESO is pay to win because you cannot obtain gear from the DLC without paying for said DLC is like saying Skyrim is pay to win because you have to buy Dawnguard to get crossbows.

I'm not debating whether or not it is pay to win just that if one is pay to win then so is the other.

EQBallzz

Gidorick wrote: »

Axorn wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

There will be people who ALWAYS say ESO is NOT pay to win, no matter what. These people will ALWAYS justify why a Crown Store offering is NOT pay to win. They will put on their ZOS color glasses and use a decision tree that always leads to "Not pay to win"...

For me it's REALLY simple:

Consider two players of equal skill who spend equal time in the game. One buys extra stuff in the Crown Store (ESO+, DLC, XP scrolls, etc), one doesn't... These two players meet in PVP. Does the player who buys Crown Store items have an advantage on the battlefield over the player who does not buy items in the Crown Store.

If they do... ESO is pay to win.

Sounds like pay to win lol

lol. Does to me too... and before I started writing the post I was leaning toward ESO NOT being pay to win. I've struggled with this definition before and we've discussed this on the forums in the past... and I always and up on "I .... guess it's not pay to win... I think."

So I went out, read about different definitions of pay-to-win that are out there. You cant just use what people say on this forum because there are VERY vague definitions that are designed to make ESO NOT pay to win.

When I came across that flow chart I really couldn't argue against it. I had to accept that ESO is pay to win. No, you don't just buy an item from the crown store and YOU WIN!... but paying customers get a distinct advantage over those who don't pay.

Seems pretty obvious to me now.

This is why B2P/F2P systems are doomed to fail. Regardless of whether a game is or is not technically P2W the community will bicker over this distinction regardless. By removing the subscription they have to generate revenue from purchases and therefore the items must have value or nobody will purchase them.

By setting up a system where some players spend lots of money to buy things of value and others may not be able or willing to you are creating a tiered system of haves and have-nots. Someone with unlimited resources to buy never ending XP pots and motifs has an advantage over someone who doesn't.

This is why subscription is a better model. Everyone pays the exact same amount and everyone gets the exact same access to the game and everything in it. The only difference between players at that point is the amount of time players have to invest and that's something ZOS has little control over.

For now, I choose to just subscribe and pretend this is still a sub game even though it's not. The cash shop and ludicrous motif system of beat yourself in the head with a hammer to collect motifs or buy them for crowns is a painful reminder that it's not.

Talyena

What I've learned from this thread is that all games you purchase are pay to win...

Did you buy the game?
|
yes
|
pay to win

anitajoneb17_ESO

Depends what you call "win".

All content in the game is doable with standard available, non-PtW stuff/gear. Thus the game is NOT P2W.

Now if "win" means "reaching the leaderboards", then yes, you'll need specific gear to get there, and join specific guilds.

Now WHAT gear is concretely behind a paywall ?
- maelstroem weapons
- Kena helmet
- vICP helmet (not sure that one is compulsory in competitive endgame).

and... THAT'S IT. All the rest is available in the vanilla game.

Do you need the Kena helmet ? I'd say : yes. As a DPS, especially as a magicka sorc, you might be rejected for insufficient DPS in an endgame competitive guild, if you don't have a Kena helmet. Or a Maelstroem weapon.

That... 0.05% of the gear... that's required for 1% of the "winners" that aim at leaderboards. Rest is available to vanilla players.

Calling it "P2W" in those very particular cases is strictly speaking true, but it's such a smaaaalll portion....

Now the two only fair-and-real measurement for "winning" are both behind a paywall : vMSA and vMoL. If you like to call it P2W, but IMHO, it's pretty much like crying "P2W" if your national athletics competition doesn't pay your travel and hotel bill for participating to the tournament. Makes no sense.

I think ZOS is remaining remarkably far away from p2w. It could be much worse.

.

Kova

I know a lot of players that believe paying to win means you become invincible because you paid for it.

So if someone buys the best gear, specs with money, and buys an extra damage potion/buff and STILL loses to a free player, then it's not pay to win.

This is an opinion I see a lot of in these threads. It's as if some players won't admit it's pay to win until there is a skill that lets you throw money at your opponent to kill them.

Runs

ZOS_MollyH wrote: »

Multiple posts have been removed from this thread for being abusive and insulting to other players, promoting conspiracy and misinformation.

There is a lot of good discussion and feedback going on in this thread, so we will open it back up, but any further infractions may result in the thread being locked and disciplinary action.

I understand when mods remove abusive/insulting posts. But removing for promoting conspiracy and misinformation is ***. Those posts should be addressed and correctly informed instead of removed. Removing them only furthers conspiracy and ignorance.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Kova wrote: »

This is an opinion I see a lot of in these threads. It's as if some players won't admit it's pay to win until there is a skill that lets you throw money at your opponent to kill them.

It's just that it's a very valid argument ! As long as a "buy this in the crown store" argument can be easily beaten by a "L2P" argument, then it's not P2W..

PvP-wise, as long as a good player can beat a "dollar-player" on a regular basis, it's a proof it's not P2W.

And don't forget that 95% (purely theoretical symbolic percentage) of players are not "competitive", meaning they don't "play to win" in the first place...

.

Keepercraft

How about lag2win?

WalkingLegacy

EQBallzz wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Axorn wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

There will be people who ALWAYS say ESO is NOT pay to win, no matter what. These people will ALWAYS justify why a Crown Store offering is NOT pay to win. They will put on their ZOS color glasses and use a decision tree that always leads to "Not pay to win"...

For me it's REALLY simple:

Consider two players of equal skill who spend equal time in the game. One buys extra stuff in the Crown Store (ESO+, DLC, XP scrolls, etc), one doesn't... These two players meet in PVP. Does the player who buys Crown Store items have an advantage on the battlefield over the player who does not buy items in the Crown Store.

If they do... ESO is pay to win.

Sounds like pay to win lol

lol. Does to me too... and before I started writing the post I was leaning toward ESO NOT being pay to win. I've struggled with this definition before and we've discussed this on the forums in the past... and I always and up on "I .... guess it's not pay to win... I think."

So I went out, read about different definitions of pay-to-win that are out there. You cant just use what people say on this forum because there are VERY vague definitions that are designed to make ESO NOT pay to win.

When I came across that flow chart I really couldn't argue against it. I had to accept that ESO is pay to win. No, you don't just buy an item from the crown store and YOU WIN!... but paying customers get a distinct advantage over those who don't pay.

Seems pretty obvious to me now.

This is why B2P/F2P systems are doomed to fail. Regardless of whether a game is or is not technically P2W the community will bicker over this distinction regardless. By removing the subscription they have to generate revenue from purchases and therefore the items must have value or nobody will purchase them.

By setting up a system where some players spend lots of money to buy things of value and others may not be able or willing to you are creating a tiered system of haves and have-nots. Someone with unlimited resources to buy never ending XP pots and motifs has an advantage over someone who doesn't.

This is why subscription is a better model. Everyone pays the exact same amount and everyone gets the exact same access to the game and everything in it. The only difference between players at that point is the amount of time players have to invest and that's something ZOS has little control over.

For now, I choose to just subscribe and pretend this is still a sub game even though it's not. The cash shop and ludicrous motif system of beat yourself in the head with a hammer to collect motifs or buy them for crowns is a painful reminder that it's not.

And they could clear confusion by scrapping Champion points, and having each DLC(expansion) increase level cap by X amount. Then the new gear is tied to increase level AND the DLC so 50s could still compete against 50s.

SneaK

How does one "win" at ESO?

I_killed_Vivec

lordrichter wrote: »

XP boosters are not pay to win. As a matter of fact, the player using the XP booster is at a base disadvantage. Two new players, one using XP boosters constantly and one that does not, arrive at 100,000 XP. The characters have the same XP but they are not equal. The player that used XP boosters has 50% less in-game time on the character. They have had 50% less time to build skills and collect equipment. All other things being equal, the player that did not use the XP booster should have an advantage.

Apologies for the truncated quote, wanted to keep it short

If you look at players with equal XP then yes, the player who used a booster will be at a disadvantage.

However, if you look at players with equal game time - assuming they do pretty much the same things - then the player using XP boosters will have considerably more CP and the same experience, skill points, gear, etc.

So the player using boosters will have a big advantage.

And we all know it - otherwise why would anyone buy them?

Is it pay to win? Probably... you can make/buy your own potions but the crown store ones are better.

But they can get away with it because it's "convenience". It's not as blatant as "Pay and you will win"

KallistaBlackheart

ESO is not pay to win. it is pay to play. those that claim otherwise have never played a pay to win game.....

and, crown store pots are not better than crafted pots.......

Troneon

Axorn wrote: »

Best weapons drops from vMSA best dps monster set Molag Kena drops from vWGT and other items and they all bound and all DLC content so how come someone can compete againts a dps having these items ? And we know all DLC items will be bound in future too. Raid leaders always choose the best DPS for trials without these items there is no way to compete. For example i usually do 25-27k dps with my sorc he only uses crafted items but other dps in the party was doing 32k dps cuz he/she was wearing molag kena.

Technically it's also pay 2 win because of the champion system and being able to spend real money on exp scrolls to gain advantage through real money. Having a free option does not suddenly make it not pay 2 win either before someone says it.

flubber77

[/quote]Technically it's also pay 2 win because of the champion system and being able to spend real money on exp scrolls to gain advantage through real money. Having a free option does not suddenly make it not pay 2 win either before someone says it. [/quote]

Well its not, u gain nothing that u cant gain if u play without the scrolls. u only use a bit longer time. and if u crying that u need to do 1 more day that your mate to reach lvl cap then stop playing games like this

exeeter702

Axorn wrote: »

Jaeysa wrote: »

No. Buying an expansion to receive access to its' content is not the same as pay to win. Pay to win is if those weapons were on the crown store and you could purchase them.

Yes its not directly but its pay to win to me

"Pay to win" is not a subjective term

Inarre

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Now the two only fair-and-real measurement for "winning" are both behind a paywall : vMSA and vMoL.

If they started selling Maelstrom Arena weapons in the crown store I'd be more inclined to call it pay to win. Frankly, having great weapons that are earned only by completing a major achievement within an expansion I would not call pay to win. To do so would be to mark every subscriber as a dirty cash shopper, when frankly I think that such a huge mmo (I mean lets be honest, this isn't some little game with 2d graphics and 8 maps) SHOULD be supported by it's players. No it's not perfect, yes they make mistakes, but such an undertaking such as completely open class and role choices, open world maps and massive PVP requires resources and monetary support to maintain, and adding incentive to either sub or purchase expansions I don't think is as dirty as handing the gear to the players for real life dollars.

Plus, even if you have those special gear items does not mean they are so unbalanced there is no way to win. I have played games where the P2W is so intense that farmed gear vs P2W gear is literally a guaranteed one shot + 200% the farmers HP. If theres pay to win in ESO (still not sure about those kinky outfits) I don't think this is it.

I know you in essence agree with the pay to win idea and I'm not exactly responding to your comment @anitajoneb17_ESO but it was a thought that came to me when reading your comment .