Have ESO become pay to win ?

Julianos · February 2016

Best weapons drops from vMSA best dps monster set Molag Kena drops from vWGT and other items and they all bound and all DLC content so how come someone can compete againts a dps having these items ? And we know all DLC items will be bound in future too. Raid leaders always choose the best DPS for trials without these items there is no way to compete. For example i usually do 25-27k dps with my sorc he only uses crafted items but other dps in the party was doing 32k dps cuz he/she was wearing molag kena.

Jaeysa · February 2016

No. Buying an expansion to receive access to its' content is not the same as pay to win. Pay to win is if those weapons were on the crown store and you could purchase them.

Julianos · February 2016

Jaeysa wrote: »

No. Buying an expansion to receive access to its' content is not the same as pay to win. Pay to win is if those weapons were on the crown store and you could purchase them.

Yes its not directly but its pay to win to me

gresiac · February 2016

Axorn wrote: »

Best weapons drops from vMSA best dps monster set Molag Kena drops from vWGT and other items and they all bound and all DLC content so how come someone can compete againts a dps having these items ? And we know all DLC items will be bound in future too. Raid leaders always choose the best DPS for trials without these items there is no way to compete. For example i usually do 25-27k dps with my sorc he only uses crafted items but other dps in the party was doing 32k dps cuz he/she was wearing molag kena.

you want everything for free ?

ProfessorKittyhawk · February 2016

If you run dungeons and want the latest and greatest gear, you gotta buy the expansions. It's not pay to win if you still have to work to get the gear. By making it like this it encourages people to spend money on the new content to get the new gear, which means ZOS makes more money to produce more new content.

Julianos · February 2016

gresiac wrote: »

Axorn wrote: »

Best weapons drops from vMSA best dps monster set Molag Kena drops from vWGT and other items and they all bound and all DLC content so how come someone can compete againts a dps having these items ? And we know all DLC items will be bound in future too. Raid leaders always choose the best DPS for trials without these items there is no way to compete. For example i usually do 25-27k dps with my sorc he only uses crafted items but other dps in the party was doing 32k dps cuz he/she was wearing molag kena.

you want everything for free ?

ofc i dont but items that have big impact on game should be accsesible by everyone otherwise its pay to win

Jaeysa · February 2016

Axorn wrote: »

Jaeysa wrote: »

No. Buying an expansion to receive access to its' content is not the same as pay to win. Pay to win is if those weapons were on the crown store and you could purchase them.

Yes its not directly but its pay to win to me

So you want ZoS to continue to throw money at a game they will make substantially less money on? Crown Store is nice and all, but I'd be willing to bet most of their profits come from DLCs.

Julianos · February 2016

Jaeysa wrote: »

Axorn wrote: »

Jaeysa wrote: »

No. Buying an expansion to receive access to its' content is not the same as pay to win. Pay to win is if those weapons were on the crown store and you could purchase them.

Yes its not directly but its pay to win to me

So you want ZoS to continue to throw money at a game they will make substantially less money on? Crown Store is nice and all, but I'd be willing to bet most of their profits come from DLCs.

I dont want that ZOS can still make money from DLCs or costumes but restricting the newest best items is pay to win otherwise why they went to buy to play method first place ?

Jaeysa · February 2016

Axorn wrote: »

Jaeysa wrote: »

Axorn wrote: »

Jaeysa wrote: »

No. Buying an expansion to receive access to its' content is not the same as pay to win. Pay to win is if those weapons were on the crown store and you could purchase them.

Yes its not directly but its pay to win to me

So you want ZoS to continue to throw money at a game they will make substantially less money on? Crown Store is nice and all, but I'd be willing to bet most of their profits come from DLCs.

I dont want that ZOS can still make money from DLCs or costumes but restricting the newest best items is pay to win otherwise why they went to buy to play method first place ?

It is buy to play. You buy the DLCs you want to play. Not into PVP? Don't buy Imperial City. Don't like orcs or PVE? Orsinium isn't for you.

ProfessorKittyhawk · February 2016

Axorn wrote: »

Jaeysa wrote: »

Axorn wrote: »

Jaeysa wrote: »

No. Buying an expansion to receive access to its' content is not the same as pay to win. Pay to win is if those weapons were on the crown store and you could purchase them.

Yes its not directly but its pay to win to me

So you want ZoS to continue to throw money at a game they will make substantially less money on? Crown Store is nice and all, but I'd be willing to bet most of their profits come from DLCs.

I dont want that ZOS can still make money from DLCs or costumes but restricting the newest best items is pay to win otherwise why they went to buy to play method first place ?

...to make people want to buy their content. You're choosing to gimp yourself by not paying for the dlc to earn the gear for yourself. Its not pay to win, it's them trying to make a profit.

Julianos · February 2016

ProfessorKittyhawk wrote: »

Axorn wrote: »

Jaeysa wrote: »

Axorn wrote: »

Jaeysa wrote: »

No. Buying an expansion to receive access to its' content is not the same as pay to win. Pay to win is if those weapons were on the crown store and you could purchase them.

Yes its not directly but its pay to win to me

So you want ZoS to continue to throw money at a game they will make substantially less money on? Crown Store is nice and all, but I'd be willing to bet most of their profits come from DLCs.

I dont want that ZOS can still make money from DLCs or costumes but restricting the newest best items is pay to win otherwise why they went to buy to play method first place ?

...to make people want to buy their content. You're choosing to gimp yourself by not paying for the dlc to earn the gear for yourself. Its not pay to win, it's them trying to make a profit.

okay its not pay to win its buy to win then

Gidorick · February 2016

There will be people who ALWAYS say ESO is NOT pay to win, no matter what. These people will ALWAYS justify why a Crown Store offering is NOT pay to win. They will put on their ZOS color glasses and use a decision tree that always leads to "Not pay to win"...

For me it's REALLY simple:

Consider two players of equal skill who spend equal time in the game. One buys extra stuff in the Crown Store (ESO+, DLC, XP scrolls, etc), one doesn't... These two players meet in PVP. Does the player who buys Crown Store items have an advantage on the battlefield over the player who does not buy items in the Crown Store.

If they do... ESO is pay to win.

Of course, as MANY have pointed out in the proceding pages, this would be true for almost all other MMO as well since almost all MMOs have for-pay expansions.

Jaeysa · February 2016

Axorn wrote: »

ProfessorKittyhawk wrote: »

Axorn wrote: »

Jaeysa wrote: »

Axorn wrote: »

Jaeysa wrote: »

No. Buying an expansion to receive access to its' content is not the same as pay to win. Pay to win is if those weapons were on the crown store and you could purchase them.

Yes its not directly but its pay to win to me

So you want ZoS to continue to throw money at a game they will make substantially less money on? Crown Store is nice and all, but I'd be willing to bet most of their profits come from DLCs.

I dont want that ZOS can still make money from DLCs or costumes but restricting the newest best items is pay to win otherwise why they went to buy to play method first place ?

...to make people want to buy their content. You're choosing to gimp yourself by not paying for the dlc to earn the gear for yourself. Its not pay to win, it's them trying to make a profit.

okay its not pay to win its buy to win then

Buy to play. Play to win. Not sure what exactly you want, other than not to spend money on a game.

Whatzituyah · February 2016

Wouldn't any MMO expansion be P2W than? You get a higher level cap in expansions to perform better than people without the expansion.

SHADOW2KK · February 2016

Adapt, it is what it is.

Not everyone is gonna have access to the leet gear/weapons etc, regardless of whether they have the content purchased or not.

It forces you to be better to access the said items, and makes people get better and progress more efficiently.

Julianos · February 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

There will be people who ALWAYS say ESO is NOT pay to win, no matter what. These people will ALWAYS justify why a Crown Store offering is NOT pay to win. They will put on their ZOS color glasses and use a decision tree that always leads to "Not pay to win"...

For me it's REALLY simple:

Consider two players of equal skill who spend equal time in the game. One buys extra stuff in the Crown Store (ESO+, DLC, XP scrolls, etc), one doesn't... These two players meet in PVP. Does the player who buys Crown Store items have an advantage on the battlefield over the player who does not buy items in the Crown Store.

If they do... ESO is pay to win.

Sounds like pay to win lol

Whatzituyah · February 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

There will be people who ALWAYS say ESO is NOT pay to win, no matter what. These people will ALWAYS justify why a Crown Store offering is NOT pay to win. They will put on their ZOS color glasses and use a decision tree that always leads to "Not pay to win"...

For me it's REALLY simple:

Consider two players of equal skill who spend equal time in the game. One buys extra stuff in the Crown Store (ESO+, DLC, XP scrolls, etc), one doesn't... These two players meet in PVP. Does the player who buys Crown Store items have an advantage on the battlefield over the player who does not buy items in the Crown Store.

If they do... ESO is pay to win.

I am confused by that image because there is a unlock system but yet there is a cash shop. Wow I think everyone is as stumped as I am no replies.

Gidorick · February 2016

Axorn wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

There will be people who ALWAYS say ESO is NOT pay to win, no matter what. These people will ALWAYS justify why a Crown Store offering is NOT pay to win. They will put on their ZOS color glasses and use a decision tree that always leads to "Not pay to win"...

For me it's REALLY simple:

Consider two players of equal skill who spend equal time in the game. One buys extra stuff in the Crown Store (ESO+, DLC, XP scrolls, etc), one doesn't... These two players meet in PVP. Does the player who buys Crown Store items have an advantage on the battlefield over the player who does not buy items in the Crown Store.

If they do... ESO is pay to win.

Sounds like pay to win lol

lol. Does to me too... and before I started writing the post I was leaning toward ESO NOT being pay to win. I've struggled with this definition before and we've discussed this on the forums in the past... and I always and up on "I .... guess it's not pay to win... I think."

So I went out, read about different definitions of pay-to-win that are out there. You cant just use what people say on this forum because there are VERY vague definitions that are designed to make ESO NOT pay to win.

When I came across that flow chart I really couldn't argue against it. I had to accept that ESO is pay to win. No, you don't just buy an item from the crown store and YOU WIN!... but paying customers get a distinct advantage over those who don't pay.

Seems pretty obvious to me now.

a_cylon · February 2016

Marketing. Once you start to understand how business works, everything becomes clear. This ain't a game with staff working for your entertainment without pay.

Julianos · February 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

Axorn wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

There will be people who ALWAYS say ESO is NOT pay to win, no matter what. These people will ALWAYS justify why a Crown Store offering is NOT pay to win. They will put on their ZOS color glasses and use a decision tree that always leads to "Not pay to win"...

For me it's REALLY simple:

Consider two players of equal skill who spend equal time in the game. One buys extra stuff in the Crown Store (ESO+, DLC, XP scrolls, etc), one doesn't... These two players meet in PVP. Does the player who buys Crown Store items have an advantage on the battlefield over the player who does not buy items in the Crown Store.

If they do... ESO is pay to win.

Sounds like pay to win lol

lol. Does to me too... and before I started writing the post I was leaning toward ESO NOT being pay to win. I've struggled with this definition before and we've discussed this on the forums in the past... and I always and up on "I .... guess it's not pay to win... I think."

So I went out, read about different definitions of pay-to-win that are out there. You cant just use what people say on this forum because there are VERY vague definitions that are designed to make ESO NOT pay to win.

When I came across that flow chart I really couldn't argue against it. I had to accept that ESO is pay to win. No, you don't just buy an item from the crown store and YOU WIN!... but paying customers get a distinct advantage over those who don't pay.

Seems pretty obvious to me now.

Very true

EnemyOfDaState · February 2016

So you want access to all the new items that come in DLC but you don't want to have to pay for the DLC? What company would use that as a business model?

Julianos · February 2016

I was always againts free to play or buy to play method.

Moderator edit - post edited to match moderated content

Acrolas · February 2016

When Gido stoops to Reddit for a user-made flowchart, you know the forum's gone *** *** mad.

I give up. I don't give a *** anymore. *** if you do *** if you don't so I'll see you all in ***.

*throws hands up*
*guard confiscates forum sweetroll*

Jaeysa · February 2016

Axorn wrote: »

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

So much sense of entitlement; so much whining. What has the world come too?!?!

I was always againts free to play or buy to play method.

So get the subscription? You have three options. Buy the DLCs. Keep up a subscription. These allow you to gain access to the content that rewards the best gear. You're for subscription? Go with that. No one is saying you have to let it lapse.

SHADOW2KK · February 2016

Axorn wrote: »

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

So much sense of entitlement; so much whining. What has the world come too?!?!

I was always againts free to play or buy to play method.

F2P games are invarialby utter crap, and B2P is a common business practice for games, i.e you buy the game, and have DLC coming out periodically, not just in MMOs but in other gaming genres too.

Gaming companies have to make money and generate cash flow through the life of a game, at the moment it is normally a B2P model with DLCs.

It is what it is, no one is forcing you to play

leepalmer95 · February 2016

It's not pay to win, you can still compete and play the game without the dlc, you can still get v16 gear and such?

EnemyOfDaState · February 2016

Jaeysa wrote: »

Axorn wrote: »

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

So much sense of entitlement; so much whining. What has the world come too?!?!

I was always againts free to play or buy to play method.

So get the subscription? You have three options. Buy the DLCs. Keep up a subscription. These allow you to gain access to the content that rewards the best gear. You're for subscription? Go with that. No one is saying you have to let it lapse.

I think he was saying he was against the crowd that Free to Play and Buy to Play attract.

Julianos · February 2016

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Axorn wrote: »

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

So much sense of entitlement; so much whining. What has the world come too?!?!

I was always againts free to play or buy to play method.

F2P games are invarialby utter crap, and B2P is a common business practice for games, i.e you buy the game, and have DLC coming out periodically, not just in MMOs but in other gaming genres too.

Gaming companies have to make money and generate cash flow through the life of a game, at the moment it is normally a B2P model with DLCs.

It is what it is, no one is forcing you to play

I always subbing but right now im protesting ZOS for pvp/pve lag so im not going to sub till servers lag free otherwise i would walk around with a sign on my neck saying "im stupid".

SHADOW2KK · February 2016

EnemyOfDaState wrote: »

Jaeysa wrote: »

Axorn wrote: »

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

So much sense of entitlement; so much whining. What has the world come too?!?!

I was always againts free to play or buy to play method.

So get the subscription? You have three options. Buy the DLCs. Keep up a subscription. These allow you to gain access to the content that rewards the best gear. You're for subscription? Go with that. No one is saying you have to let it lapse.

I think he was saying he was against the crowd that Free to Play and Buy to Play attract.

I do not think a company is gonna develop a AAA game that is free somehow, and nor should they.

Not sure what OP is getting at, however have explained the fundamentals of why earlier.

Maybe gaming is not for you OP

Lenikus · February 2016

ESo is only "pay2win" as far as kinky clothing is concerned.

SHADOW2KK · February 2016

Axorn wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Axorn wrote: »

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

So much sense of entitlement; so much whining. What has the world come too?!?!

I was always againts free to play or buy to play method.

F2P games are invarialby utter crap, and B2P is a common business practice for games, i.e you buy the game, and have DLC coming out periodically, not just in MMOs but in other gaming genres too.

Gaming companies have to make money and generate cash flow through the life of a game, at the moment it is normally a B2P model with DLCs.

It is what it is, no one is forcing you to play

I always subbing but right now im protesting ZOS for pvp/pve lag so im not going to sub till servers lag free otherwise i would going to walk around with a sign on my neck saying "im stupid".

Fair enough, I have subbed more or less continuously since Early Access but they need the revenue to make things happen, the more people sub, the more cash is generated to make things better for everyone.

Just a way of supporting the game that we all play.

PvP/PvE lag is bad here and there, and still waiting on the lag free megaserver tech that was promised, but they are working on it, personally I will believer it when I see it.

But money makes the world go round, here is no different.

But going by your earlier points, you want access to the shizzle that the DLC presents, thats fair enough, you can buy mats from people in guld stores, or you can sub for a month and try to get whatever other gear you need.

Your call, your choice, but you should just accept you are not gonna get the best gear if you are not allowing yourself to access the content that is required to get it.

It is hardly Zenis fault for your decision, lag or no lag.