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• PC/Mac: EU megaserver for maintenance – September 9, 22:00 UTC (6:00PM EDT) - September 10, 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682784
Stealth nerf to Puncturing Sweep :(
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Essiaga✭✭✭✭Well - if you take into account that you can now easily get major mending on your sweep heals as a templar i´d say it´s a change you can live with.
So... while I am standing still in a very small area, I can briefly get major mending. If I stand still and don't attempt to move out of the way of any attacks coming towards me. As long as I stand still it's all OK?
I would not declare purifying ritual a very small area.itscompton wrote: »
Only my personal opinion from playing a templar in pve admittedly. I will prefer 35% heal on sweep with a 25% heal increase over 40% heal without the major mending.
How are you going to get major mending so before you start EVERY sweep you will need a ritual or rune and have to stay in it. As a Templar of over 20 months ( now retired) when I see Templars throw down a ritual or rune I will dodge roll back and move out of it then you will need to come to me then repeat my dodge roll or you can Risk it toppling to me then I will do it again. I am not going to let you get major mending. And without the ritual or rune you won't have it. go ahead test it on pts I double dog dare you. Let me know we can level our dks together.
I´m indeed leveling a magica DK - it´s the only class i don´t have v16. Too many nightblades.
If you allow an ability like purifying ritual to be a spacing ability in a fight you´re basically never going to be able to score a kill against a templar - you have to accept some terms an opponent brings to a fight. It´s much like a sorc mine camping. You can never engage into those mines but you´ll never kill the sorc aswell.
Especially since there is no reason ever for a templar to not cast ritual.
... no the templar will never be able to kill you. You have in your tag "Derra - Sorcerer - DC - V16 - AR39
Derranii - Sorcerer - AD - V16" so i'm assuming you have played a sorcerer. Sorcerers are hard to kill cause the have shield, streak and movements speed in addition to big burst damage.
So your telling me on your sorc you can create enough distance to end the fight at any time you'd like?
The difference between Rune, Ritual and Mines are so great that if you're not seeing the difference already ....
Rune gives us and 8 second buff and if you stand in it you get to regen magicka. Rune does NOTHING to the enemy.
Sorc gets the same buff for 20 sec via boundless storm, which also gives you movement speed, and passive AOE damage and you're free to move. You have no fear of entering rune or even the templar standing in it because if the opportunity presents its self you can drop a combo that will kill the Templar twice over which BOL will not save use from. Nor will rune, or standing in ritual or jab healing.
Now Ritual. larger AOE ... HOT ...cleanses on cast ... No deterent to enemy players. The change in Focus Healing is a net lost of 5% effectiveness of the healing form Ritual (and all other Restoring Light abilities including BOL). 30% down to 25%
Mines ... harms ... heals ... CCs ... and with sorcs shields, streak, movement speed, and buffs that provide additional mitigation makes a great baiting tool for them to more easily drop death on you.
And you're trying to say your never going to kill a templar standing in ritual? just walk away. I don't play games so i can stand in circles hoping only 1 person comes along so i might have the chance to best him. I want to fight. Not stand and wait. Also when you run from 5 and 1 keeps up the chase its not as bad as standing and having 5 pound on you with crap for mitigation. And yes Jabs helps keep you alive. 40% or aoe damage is pretty good and when you invest some CP those heals can be all you need in PVE, and comes in very useful in PVP. I take advantage of it constantly and my party mates are often at a loss as to what to do with how aggressively I can go balls deep into a group of enemies. While i might not kill them all I can put a pretty good dent in them and with a little help from friends and my jab healing I've taken and defend resources against larger numbers of people.
As for if this nerf to PS is life altering ... its kinda like taking a french fry my plate with out asking ... after you've already taken a bites of my burger and drank my milkshake over the past 2 years.
Now regardless of weather its life altering it is a nerf and Templars have just received a number of nerfs this update including the blanket nerf to Restoring Light abilities that supposedly justify this nerf to Jabs.
Ritual ... fixed or nerf , either way not being able to cleanse projectiles hurts especially when Eclipse was changed to projectiles from harmful single target spells.
This update is net nerf to templars. We gained no mitigation or regen. We lost healing across the board. We gained a few seconds on a DOT that is hardly usable. We got an insignifigant buff to a crap Ult (1 m) and weak situation shield buff to skill that's nowhere near viable. None of the useless skill were made useful. NONE.
The only improvement I see is Jab snare. Beyond that nothing makes this class any better. Not even dark flare. No one complained about the damage. We complain cause its kinda like watching a kid swing a sledge hammer. It's going to hurt you if he manages to hit you with it but its cute watching him try.7 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Derra So in your opinion we don't deserve an armor buff that sticks to us or what is your actual point here? I thought you were primarely a Sorcerer anyway? Isn't there something else you can discuss here on forums that makes more sense fighting against? Or do you like keeping the Templar class down? Sorry mate we've known each other for some time but I don't see the grand plan of what you're trying to achieve here in this thread other than sowing doubt about whether Templars and in particular Stamina Templars needs some additional buffs or quality of life changes. We don't really need that, seems ZOS themselves have enough doubt about what to do with the Templars.
I´m not fighting anything.
Honestly i have no idea why you guys now come up with an amor buff now. That´s not what what i was talking about at all.
I´d love some stamina templar buffs though, my poor bosmer templar was created the second day i started the game and has not seen much sunlight since then (only dungeons).Well - if you take into account that you can now easily get major mending on your sweep heals as a templar i´d say it´s a change you can live with.
So... while I am standing still in a very small area, I can briefly get major mending. If I stand still and don't attempt to move out of the way of any attacks coming towards me. As long as I stand still it's all OK?
I would not declare purifying ritual a very small area.itscompton wrote: »
Only my personal opinion from playing a templar in pve admittedly. I will prefer 35% heal on sweep with a 25% heal increase over 40% heal without the major mending.
Not when you take Templar to VMA and have to recast ritual or rune constantly while moving around the arena....and then there's PVP which is what most of us are mad about. 1 Gap closer and we are no longer in the ritual...
I was referring to vmsa when i said pve. But i´m admittedly ~50k behind the top templars on my bosmer magica build after 6 runs - so what do i know.
It doesn't bother you at all that Templar's armor rune is the only one in the game that doesn't stick to the user? Really? You desire having to recast rune or ritual every time you move? It doesn't upset you DK gets the exact same Major Mending buff by just using Igneous Shield, which sticks to him?
Do you really not see where we are coming from here? Do you consider yourself a Templar or is the class just casual fun for you? I've always thought of you as a sorc... If Templar was your only class can you say these changes would not bother you? I get that it's a net positive, but it's only a positive when in our rune/ritual. I just flat out don't see the logic in a pitiful 5% healing nerf on Sweeps.
Well if you compare templar ritual to igneous shield - i´d prefer ritual for magica and igneous for stam admittedly. They´re both good skills.
I don´t like the ability design of rune focus at all for templar (and the magica reg nerf is outright stupid). I´ve not been talking about this skill though. I´ve talked about ritual.many words... Rune gives us and 8 second buff and if you stand in it you get to regen magicka. Rune does NOTHING to the enemy. many more words
Wow you guys really dislike rune focus. I get that. I think it´s bad too. I just was not talking about this ability at all.
You started with "never fighting a templar in ritual" - i just made the comment: that´s the same as stating to never fight a sorc in mines.
You are never going to kill that player. Nothing else i´ve wanted to say about it. So no need to write an essay.
I don´t get the templar hype/hate aswell as the DK hype. Aslong as there is no option for those classes to gain some sort of magica related mobility they will still have issues.
I´m not arguing against anything. I just stated that i personally think major mending while in ritual will be a buff for the way i play my templar.Edited by Derra on February 5, 2016 9:49PM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
AfkNinja✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Derra So in your opinion we don't deserve an armor buff that sticks to us or what is your actual point here? I thought you were primarely a Sorcerer anyway? Isn't there something else you can discuss here on forums that makes more sense fighting against? Or do you like keeping the Templar class down? Sorry mate we've known each other for some time but I don't see the grand plan of what you're trying to achieve here in this thread other than sowing doubt about whether Templars and in particular Stamina Templars needs some additional buffs or quality of life changes. We don't really need that, seems ZOS themselves have enough doubt about what to do with the Templars.
I´m not fighting anything.
Honestly i have no idea why you guys now come up with an amor buff now. That´s not what what i was talking about at all.Well - if you take into account that you can now easily get major mending on your sweep heals as a templar i´d say it´s a change you can live with.
So... while I am standing still in a very small area, I can briefly get major mending. If I stand still and don't attempt to move out of the way of any attacks coming towards me. As long as I stand still it's all OK?
I would not declare purifying ritual a very small area.itscompton wrote: »
Only my personal opinion from playing a templar in pve admittedly. I will prefer 35% heal on sweep with a 25% heal increase over 40% heal without the major mending.
Not when you take Templar to VMA and have to recast ritual or rune constantly while moving around the arena....and then there's PVP which is what most of us are mad about. 1 Gap closer and we are no longer in the ritual...
I was referring to vmsa when i said pve. But i´m admittedly ~50k behind the top templars on my bosmer magica build after 6 runs - so what do i know.
It doesn't bother you at all that Templar's armor rune is the only one in the game that doesn't stick to the user? Really? You desire having to recast rune or ritual every time you move? It doesn't upset you DK gets the exact same Major Mending buff by just using Igneous Shield, which sticks to him?
Do you really not see where we are coming from here? Do you consider yourself a Templar or is the class just casual fun for you? I've always thought of you as a sorc... If Templar was your only class can you say these changes would not bother you? I get that it's a net positive, but it's only a positive when in our rune/ritual. I just flat out don't see the logic in a pitiful 5% healing nerf on Sweeps.
Well if you compare templar ritual to igneous shield - i´d prefer ritual for magica and igneous for stam admittedly. They´re both good skills.
I don´t like the ability design of rune focus at all for templar. I´ve not been talking about this skill though. I´ve talked about ritual.
So it's fair to make a Templar stand in ritual to get major mending but not make any other class stand still to get Major Mending got it.
I only mentioned the armor because Rune and Ritual are our two class paths to get Major Mending. Both require us to be stationary or spam a skill to keep up a requirement no other class has at this time. I guess just use a non-class skill to get major mending? Then again that only helps Magplar and Stamplar is left in the cold again.1 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Derra So in your opinion we don't deserve an armor buff that sticks to us or what is your actual point here? I thought you were primarely a Sorcerer anyway? Isn't there something else you can discuss here on forums that makes more sense fighting against? Or do you like keeping the Templar class down? Sorry mate we've known each other for some time but I don't see the grand plan of what you're trying to achieve here in this thread other than sowing doubt about whether Templars and in particular Stamina Templars needs some additional buffs or quality of life changes. We don't really need that, seems ZOS themselves have enough doubt about what to do with the Templars.
I´m not fighting anything.
Honestly i have no idea why you guys now come up with an amor buff now. That´s not what what i was talking about at all.Well - if you take into account that you can now easily get major mending on your sweep heals as a templar i´d say it´s a change you can live with.
So... while I am standing still in a very small area, I can briefly get major mending. If I stand still and don't attempt to move out of the way of any attacks coming towards me. As long as I stand still it's all OK?
I would not declare purifying ritual a very small area.itscompton wrote: »
Only my personal opinion from playing a templar in pve admittedly. I will prefer 35% heal on sweep with a 25% heal increase over 40% heal without the major mending.
Not when you take Templar to VMA and have to recast ritual or rune constantly while moving around the arena....and then there's PVP which is what most of us are mad about. 1 Gap closer and we are no longer in the ritual...
I was referring to vmsa when i said pve. But i´m admittedly ~50k behind the top templars on my bosmer magica build after 6 runs - so what do i know.
It doesn't bother you at all that Templar's armor rune is the only one in the game that doesn't stick to the user? Really? You desire having to recast rune or ritual every time you move? It doesn't upset you DK gets the exact same Major Mending buff by just using Igneous Shield, which sticks to him?
Do you really not see where we are coming from here? Do you consider yourself a Templar or is the class just casual fun for you? I've always thought of you as a sorc... If Templar was your only class can you say these changes would not bother you? I get that it's a net positive, but it's only a positive when in our rune/ritual. I just flat out don't see the logic in a pitiful 5% healing nerf on Sweeps.
Well if you compare templar ritual to igneous shield - i´d prefer ritual for magica and igneous for stam admittedly. They´re both good skills.
I don´t like the ability design of rune focus at all for templar. I´ve not been talking about this skill though. I´ve talked about ritual.
So it's fair to make a Templar stand in ritual to get major mending but not make any other class stand still to get Major Mending got it.
I only mentioned the armor because Rune and Ritual are our two class paths to get Major Mending. Both require us to be stationary or spam a skill to keep up a requirement no other class has at this time. I guess just use a non-class skill to get major mending? Then again that only helps Magplar and Stamplar is left in the cold again.
Other classes have to channel a full resto heavy to get 3s of major mending.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
Mumyo✭✭✭✭✭Actually to this "nerf". Since they changed the passive we got from placing rune or purge... dont we actually get more healing?
It could actually be buffed. Ill check that out tomorrow.0 -
AfkNinja✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Other classes have to channel a full resto heavy to get 3s of major mending.
You're right, my mistake. Only DK has Major Mending on a class skill and remains mobile.
I guess I just saw all the extra healing added to Sorc pets and DK skills when I skimmed the notes and thought they got Major Mending too. DK healing just got way way better after reading those DK patch notes....0 -
AfkNinja✭✭✭✭✭
✭Actually to this "nerf". Since they changed the passive we got from placing rune or purge... dont we actually get more healing?
It could actually be buffed. Ill check that out tomorrow.
Overall healing for a Magicka Templar appears to have gone down not up (needs extensive testing). BOL 25% nerf, 5% puncturing strikes nerf (wasn't effected by old passive so it's an overall buff), Major Mending changed from + 30% to + 25% healing done.
Overall healing for a Stamplar has gone up, as long as you can maintain rune or ritual.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Actually to this "nerf". Since they changed the passive we got from placing rune or purge... dont we actually get more healing?
It could actually be buffed. Ill check that out tomorrow.
Overall healing for a Magicka Templar appears to have gone down not up (needs extensive testing). BOL 25% nerf, 5% puncturing strikes nerf (wasn't effected by old passive so it's an overall buff), Major Mending changed from + 30% to + 25% healing done.
Overall healing for a Stamplar has gone up, as long as you can maintain rune or ritual.
I have not tested this on pts - does the major mending effect "stick" to your hots when you cast them in ritual and then leave it? Like can a stamplar buff vigor and rally by first using ritual - like a stamdk does with igneous?<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Actually to this "nerf". Since they changed the passive we got from placing rune or purge... dont we actually get more healing?
It could actually be buffed. Ill check that out tomorrow.
For heals outside of restoring light it is. Aside from restoration staff heavy attacks and igneous shield I don't know off the top of my head if there are any other ways to sustain that buff.0 -
AfkNinja✭✭✭✭✭
✭Actually to this "nerf". Since they changed the passive we got from placing rune or purge... dont we actually get more healing?
It could actually be buffed. Ill check that out tomorrow.
Overall healing for a Magicka Templar appears to have gone down not up (needs extensive testing). BOL 25% nerf, 5% puncturing strikes nerf (wasn't effected by old passive so it's an overall buff), Major Mending changed from + 30% to + 25% healing done.
Overall healing for a Stamplar has gone up, as long as you can maintain rune or ritual.
I have not tested this on pts - does the major mending effect "stick" to your hots when you cast them in ritual and then leave it? Like can a stamplar buff vigor and rally by first using ritual - like a stamdk does with igneous?
Yes, however ZOS has stated they want major mending to wear off after 2-4 secs depending on rank when you leave ritual or rune. Currently this is not functioning on the PTS however I am sure ZOS will try to make it work. The 18 seconds of mp regen on Rune they also want to wear off after 8 seconds of leaving the rune. IDK even know if they CAN make it function that way, but they want to.0 -
AriBoh✭✭✭✭✭Actually to this "nerf". Since they changed the passive we got from placing rune or purge... dont we actually get more healing?
It could actually be buffed. Ill check that out tomorrow.
Overall healing for a Magicka Templar appears to have gone down not up (needs extensive testing). BOL 25% nerf, 5% puncturing strikes nerf (wasn't effected by old passive so it's an overall buff), Major Mending changed from + 30% to + 25% healing done.
Overall healing for a Stamplar has gone up, as long as you can maintain rune or ritual.
I have not tested this on pts - does the major mending effect "stick" to your hots when you cast them in ritual and then leave it? Like can a stamplar buff vigor and rally by first using ritual - like a stamdk does with igneous?
Yes, however ZOS has stated they want major mending to wear off after 2-4 secs depending on rank when you leave ritual or rune. Currently this is not functioning on the PTS however I am sure ZOS will try to make it work. The 18 seconds of mp regen on Rune they also want to wear off after 8 seconds of leaving the rune. IDK even know if they CAN make it function that way, but they want to.
They want the MP regen to happen when you are standing in the rune period. As soon as you step out you lose the effects of either morph. Hence why they are being called jerks.khele23eb17
Agreed. Whoever came up with the design should be shot in the foot and only admitted to hospital when he manages to find 3 other people willing to maim themselves the same way in order to accompany him.
ZOS_AmeliaR admin
Ultimately, any method of entering an enemy keep without breaking down the door is considered an exploit. Thanks for checking!
tinythinker
"I used to be a healer once, but then I took a Wrobel to the knee"3 -
AfkNinja✭✭✭✭✭
✭Actually to this "nerf". Since they changed the passive we got from placing rune or purge... dont we actually get more healing?
It could actually be buffed. Ill check that out tomorrow.
Overall healing for a Magicka Templar appears to have gone down not up (needs extensive testing). BOL 25% nerf, 5% puncturing strikes nerf (wasn't effected by old passive so it's an overall buff), Major Mending changed from + 30% to + 25% healing done.
Overall healing for a Stamplar has gone up, as long as you can maintain rune or ritual.
I have not tested this on pts - does the major mending effect "stick" to your hots when you cast them in ritual and then leave it? Like can a stamplar buff vigor and rally by first using ritual - like a stamdk does with igneous?
Yes, however ZOS has stated they want major mending to wear off after 2-4 secs depending on rank when you leave ritual or rune. Currently this is not functioning on the PTS however I am sure ZOS will try to make it work. The 18 seconds of mp regen on Rune they also want to wear off after 8 seconds of leaving the rune. IDK even know if they CAN make it function that way, but they want to.
They want the MP regen to happen when you are standing in the rune period. As soon as you step out you lose the effects of either morph. Hence why they are being called jerks.
Yes that is their ultimate goal. Currently the regen sticks for 18 seconds and I bet the Major Mending does too. However they WILL fix this at some point unless we convince them not too.1 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Actually to this "nerf". Since they changed the passive we got from placing rune or purge... dont we actually get more healing?
It could actually be buffed. Ill check that out tomorrow.
Overall healing for a Magicka Templar appears to have gone down not up (needs extensive testing). BOL 25% nerf, 5% puncturing strikes nerf (wasn't effected by old passive so it's an overall buff), Major Mending changed from + 30% to + 25% healing done.
Overall healing for a Stamplar has gone up, as long as you can maintain rune or ritual.
I have not tested this on pts - does the major mending effect "stick" to your hots when you cast them in ritual and then leave it? Like can a stamplar buff vigor and rally by first using ritual - like a stamdk does with igneous?
Yes, however ZOS has stated they want major mending to wear off after 2-4 secs depending on rank when you leave ritual or rune. Currently this is not functioning on the PTS however I am sure ZOS will try to make it work. The 18 seconds of mp regen on Rune they also want to wear off after 8 seconds of leaving the rune. IDK even know if they CAN make it function that way, but they want to.
They want the MP regen to happen when you are standing in the rune period. As soon as you step out you lose the effects of either morph. Hence why they are being called jerks.
Yes that is their ultimate goal. Currently the regen sticks for 18 seconds and I bet the Major Mending does too. However they WILL fix this at some point unless we convince them not too.
Another alternative to rune focus would be to make it a conjured totem or some such, make it so it channels the buffs with a larger effective range, but when you leave the range it moves to your location with some sort of aoe damage, thinking like a blast of sunfire, add some mobility to it in a game where moving is kind of important.1 -
Anhedonie✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »We never purposely leave notes out from the patch notes; we'll double check if this was intended or not, and get back to you.
HA-HA-HAProfanity filter is a crime against the freedom of speech. Also gags.3 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I don´t get the templar hype/hate aswell as the DK hype. Aslong as there is no option for those classes to gain some sort of magica related mobility they will still have issues.
I´m not arguing against anything. I just stated that i personally think major mending while in ritual will be a buff for the way i play my templar.
I can agree with this much. I just really feel like they try to hide nerfs behind buffs and am just a little frustrated. I don't really want to grind another toon but that mobility is key.2 -
Essiaga✭✭✭✭Seriously guys there's no point in discussing alternatives to skill. We already made suggestions and spelled out needs and weaknesses and did it all constructively and everything. Gina past it along and got back to us once or twice ... http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/234362/templar-issues-thread/p1
The replies we get are from forum mediators, mostly just asking us to be nice. The devs clear don't read or don't care what we think, feel, whatev ... those who play against templers are who they listen to. Nerf healing. Done. Its the class they don't care to play so whatev. Pets got more work then templars did this patch. We got BS buffs and jab snare, along with a bunch of nerfs.
If its easy enough for them to do with out more then like 20 mins work they will but Templars are a very small, and shrinking, population of their game. We're dungeon healers. ZOS puts no effort into improving this class cause they just don't care. Its obvious by an arbitrary nerf like this that they really have no love for this class. The fact that someone stopped to think of decreasing the healing of PS is just unfathomable after they just decreased the healing of EVERY Restoring Light ability by 5%.
I'm going back to leveling my magNB, who at level 14 already gets more benefit from passives then my v16 Templar.7 -
Zinaroth✭✭✭✭✭
✭After speaking to @ZOS_Seiffer on a Hodor raid stream last night he assured me that developers are reading all feedback made on the PTS forum at the moment. If you really want your point across make sure its thorough, indepth and well argumented, and not just some snippy comment about you wanting a buff or a nerf.1 -
hobicabobjob✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »ZOS_KNowak wrote: »Joy_Division,
Thanks for bringing this to our attention. This change was intended, and we apologize for missing the patch note for it. Ultimately, the rationale was that the change to the Focused Healing passive means Puncturing Sweep is now eligible for that healing bonus and will heal for more than compared to Live. So we reduced Puncturing Sweep's healing by 5% to compensate; in the end, it's still a net buff to total healing.
@ZOS_KNowak
I appreciate the response. I am going to remain respectful. I don't want this thread closed. I know you folks at ZoS have an impossible job to please all of your customer base with its diverse opinions on what constitutes balance and exciting gameplay. I understand that. But there are reasons I made this topic that go beyond a 5% nerf.
Emotions are high on the templar side because, even it was unintended, there has been a history of undocumented nerfs to templar skills. All of us who played since beta can recite them. The two that really have stuck with me are the Toppling Charge global cooldown and the Eclipse single target restriction. There was no outcry for such nerfs and yet here they are in the game, both put in without nary an acknowledgement. This is incredibly frustrating. Who ever complained about eclipse being OP?
And then there are the listed nerfs. Nerfs to signature class skills are a big deal and the ones done to Purifying Ritual and Breath of Life seemed to be too casual. I am sure that perception is incorrect and ZoS put a lot of thought into it. But hear me out. Purify and Breath are what make templars templars as opposed to generic magicka DPS who stack spell damage. It's one thing to make a concession to the vocal part of the community who feels there is too much healing in Cyrodiil. It's something entirely different to do so without making any sort of recompense that takes into account the cost of the skill, how it functions, etc. If ZoS wants to argue that purify was never intended to cleanse incoming projectiles, fine, I can see the logic. But whether or not it was intended is irrelevant because purifying meteors was a part of Cyrodiil class balance. Many admitted templar tanking was found wanting even with that "bug" and yet again templars lost something with no compensation. ZoS says purify works now just like cleanse and that's right, it now has the functionality of a generic alliance war skill, one which allies have to actually use a synergy to derive the benefits of. Are we supposed to be excited about that? These are not just irrefutable net losses, but an outright loss of templar distinctiveness.
Also, no other class has had a history of having so many wonky, awkward, cumbersome, and inefficient abilities as templars. I don't know what the metrics are telling ZoS and maybe it's me and the particular people I play with (i.e the entire NA server homed on the pop-locked Azura's Star and more PuG dailies than I'd like), but it is the rare occasion I see any templar use healing ritual, radiant aura, rite of passage, radial sweep, or sunfire. Sun shield is niche. Eclipse is impractical. Every decent DPS ability we have leaves us 100% vulnerable to enemy attack. It's not like these are secrets or simply a corner-case perspective held by hardcore elitists, it's pretty much public knowledge for anyone who hops in just about any teamspeak on a given night. And yet here we are again, another February for class balance, and healing ritual is still a double no-no because of a cast time and no mobility, radiant aura still rendered moot by a common potion, and blazing shield, our signature defensive ability that for most builds is incapable of mitigating a single attack by an enemy player, didn't even get the 1% buff. There is disappointment.
In short, the undocumented nerf to Puncturing Sweep is emblematic of a larger frustration among templars.
******
And it still bothers me because I don't buy the rationale.
On Live my my tooltip damage is around 1000 per sweep so let's use that to be simple. I damage NB for 1000. I heal 400.
Now on PTS, let's say I damage that same NB for 1000. I am healed 350.
That is the default case and that is a nerf.
*****
Your stated rationale only comes into to play if I have the have the focused healing passive. This is no guarantee yet it is being treated like it is a given. It's not.
I can most assuredly tell you that while I would like to always be fighting in my purifying ritual or ehem...remained stationary [!] in my channeled focus...it's not that easy and it doesn't always work out that way. There are many situations where we are taking upwards of 10,000 damage every second when using a global cooldown to essentially "punt" - a skill that does zero damage to the enemy nor impedes them, a skill that does not heal me at that moment and a skill that also will no longer cleanse stuff about to hit me - is not always feasible. Even if I do get that ritual or focus down, what do I do when my opponent moves out of it or in Maelstrom arena when those 7K DPS archers who stand out in the middle of the water, or the Spider boss on stage 6 where I have to move to the totems, or the final boss in Maelstrom where I have to dodge lich crystals, interrupt the boss, chase gold ghosts and prevent the summoners from spawning a colossus? I cannot stay in one spot! ZoS designed this game in such a way where it is now disadvantageous to do so and now Zos is telling me I have to stand in one area or spam these skills every time I move just to avoid this nerf?
That is not a net buff to healing. That is a potential situational buff to healing, a small one at that: I'd be getting 437, let's not pretend this all of a sudden "fixes" what Nifty correctly pointed out - it can't crit, doesn't work on damage shields, subject to battle spirit reduction. And this situation runs counter to ZoS's latest PvE game design and the realities of Cyrodiil combat.
*****
But here is the thing: did ZoS have to put that nerf in? How is it that ZoS went through so much micro-analysis considering the potential addition of the mending passive and not take into account the overall state of the now flimsier templar with its purify "fixed," 25% less healing from breath, and to be confined to within its rune focus? Isn't this missing the forest for the trees? Would it not to have made more sense to say, "Hey, you know templars are losing some of their ability to sustain/mitigate and it's pretty obvious after a year that tanking is already under-powered in cyrodiil. They're probably going to need that mending bonus whenever they can get it so let's compensate those templars who do try to stand their ground with a bit of extra healing from their sweeps and not punish those who attempt to stay mobile."
How is there so much consideration given to reducing the default effectiveness of our most used offensive skill and so little consideration given to increasing the default effectiveness of those many skills so few of us use? It is absolutely mind-blowing that ZoS is so concerned about the melee effectiveness of a class that nobody thinks is overpowered and yet so apathetic to the continuous voices that have told ZoS time and time and time again that healing ritual is bad, we desperately need a blinding flashes type skill back, the sword and shield reflect is miles better than our own skill, and radial sweep and rite of passage are ultimates so uninspiring that we look elsewhere? If ZoS spent half as much time contemplating how to buff our many skills that even other classes say are bad instead of nerfing the few that we do use, templars would be a lot more interesting, diverse, and fun to play.
This really resonates with me.6 -
Lokov✭✭✭same things happens with DK - ninja nerfs is stupid or its just bugs after updatesEdited by Lokov on February 8, 2016 10:47PMCaptain Org As More |Mag Blade| DC
Bald Dude You Know From |Stam Blade| DC
Ashot One Shot |Mag Blade| AD
Strippirella |Stam Blade| AD
Dont Touch My Tralala |Stam DK| DC
Im Badman |Mag DK| DC
Big Mac |Mag Sorc| DC
Savitar Himself |Stam Sorc| DC
Captain Old Fashion |Mag Plar| DC
Chelovek Chlen-Nevidimka |Stam Warden| DC
Welcome to my TWITCH in Russian0 -
Xexpo✭✭✭✭✭
Kiki Dickson ~~~ Dixmanian Devil ~~~ Cornelius Buckshank Jr.
Histy-Fitz ~~~ Boozemer ~~~ Chace X'expo
Lluvia De'Fuego ~~~ Shakes Spear
Macro and Cheese NA/PC3 -
Idinuse✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »ZOS_KNowak wrote: »Joy_Division,
Thanks for bringing this to our attention. This change was intended, and we apologize for missing the patch note for it. Ultimately, the rationale was that the change to the Focused Healing passive means Puncturing Sweep is now eligible for that healing bonus and will heal for more than compared to Live. So we reduced Puncturing Sweep's healing by 5% to compensate; in the end, it's still a net buff to total healing.
@ZOS_KNowak
I appreciate the response. I am going to remain respectful. I don't want this thread closed. I know you folks at ZoS have an impossible job to please all of your customer base with its diverse opinions on what constitutes balance and exciting gameplay. I understand that. But there are reasons I made this topic that go beyond a 5% nerf.
Emotions are high on the templar side because, even it was unintended, there has been a history of undocumented nerfs to templar skills. All of us who played since beta can recite them. The two that really have stuck with me are the Toppling Charge global cooldown and the Eclipse single target restriction. There was no outcry for such nerfs and yet here they are in the game, both put in without nary an acknowledgement. This is incredibly frustrating. Who ever complained about eclipse being OP?
And then there are the listed nerfs. Nerfs to signature class skills are a big deal and the ones done to Purifying Ritual and Breath of Life seemed to be too casual. I am sure that perception is incorrect and ZoS put a lot of thought into it. But hear me out. Purify and Breath are what make templars templars as opposed to generic magicka DPS who stack spell damage. It's one thing to make a concession to the vocal part of the community who feels there is too much healing in Cyrodiil. It's something entirely different to do so without making any sort of recompense that takes into account the cost of the skill, how it functions, etc. If ZoS wants to argue that purify was never intended to cleanse incoming projectiles, fine, I can see the logic. But whether or not it was intended is irrelevant because purifying meteors was a part of Cyrodiil class balance. Many admitted templar tanking was found wanting even with that "bug" and yet again templars lost something with no compensation. ZoS says purify works now just like cleanse and that's right, it now has the functionality of a generic alliance war skill, one which allies have to actually use a synergy to derive the benefits of. Are we supposed to be excited about that? These are not just irrefutable net losses, but an outright loss of templar distinctiveness.
Also, no other class has had a history of having so many wonky, awkward, cumbersome, and inefficient abilities as templars. I don't know what the metrics are telling ZoS and maybe it's me and the particular people I play with (i.e the entire NA server homed on the pop-locked Azura's Star and more PuG dailies than I'd like), but it is the rare occasion I see any templar use healing ritual, radiant aura, rite of passage, radial sweep, or sunfire. Sun shield is niche. Eclipse is impractical. Every decent DPS ability we have leaves us 100% vulnerable to enemy attack. It's not like these are secrets or simply a corner-case perspective held by hardcore elitists, it's pretty much public knowledge for anyone who hops in just about any teamspeak on a given night. And yet here we are again, another February for class balance, and healing ritual is still a double no-no because of a cast time and no mobility, radiant aura still rendered moot by a common potion, and blazing shield, our signature defensive ability that for most builds is incapable of mitigating a single attack by an enemy player, didn't even get the 1% buff. There is disappointment.
In short, the undocumented nerf to Puncturing Sweep is emblematic of a larger frustration among templars.
******
And it still bothers me because I don't buy the rationale.
On Live my my tooltip damage is around 1000 per sweep so let's use that to be simple. I damage NB for 1000. I heal 400.
Now on PTS, let's say I damage that same NB for 1000. I am healed 350.
That is the default case and that is a nerf.
*****
Your stated rationale only comes into to play if I have the have the focused healing passive. This is no guarantee yet it is being treated like it is a given. It's not.
I can most assuredly tell you that while I would like to always be fighting in my purifying ritual or ehem...remained stationary [!] in my channeled focus...it's not that easy and it doesn't always work out that way. There are many situations where we are taking upwards of 10,000 damage every second when using a global cooldown to essentially "punt" - a skill that does zero damage to the enemy nor impedes them, a skill that does not heal me at that moment and a skill that also will no longer cleanse stuff about to hit me - is not always feasible. Even if I do get that ritual or focus down, what do I do when my opponent moves out of it or in Maelstrom arena when those 7K DPS archers who stand out in the middle of the water, or the Spider boss on stage 6 where I have to move to the totems, or the final boss in Maelstrom where I have to dodge lich crystals, interrupt the boss, chase gold ghosts and prevent the summoners from spawning a colossus? I cannot stay in one spot! ZoS designed this game in such a way where it is now disadvantageous to do so and now Zos is telling me I have to stand in one area or spam these skills every time I move just to avoid this nerf?
That is not a net buff to healing. That is a potential situational buff to healing, a small one at that: I'd be getting 437, let's not pretend this all of a sudden "fixes" what Nifty correctly pointed out - it can't crit, doesn't work on damage shields, subject to battle spirit reduction. And this situation runs counter to ZoS's latest PvE game design and the realities of Cyrodiil combat.
*****
But here is the thing: did ZoS have to put that nerf in? How is it that ZoS went through so much micro-analysis considering the potential addition of the mending passive and not take into account the overall state of the now flimsier templar with its purify "fixed," 25% less healing from breath, and to be confined to within its rune focus? Isn't this missing the forest for the trees? Would it not to have made more sense to say, "Hey, you know templars are losing some of their ability to sustain/mitigate and it's pretty obvious after a year that tanking is already under-powered in cyrodiil. They're probably going to need that mending bonus whenever they can get it so let's compensate those templars who do try to stand their ground with a bit of extra healing from their sweeps and not punish those who attempt to stay mobile."
How is there so much consideration given to reducing the default effectiveness of our most used offensive skill and so little consideration given to increasing the default effectiveness of those many skills so few of us use? It is absolutely mind-blowing that ZoS is so concerned about the melee effectiveness of a class that nobody thinks is overpowered and yet so apathetic to the continuous voices that have told ZoS time and time and time again that healing ritual is bad, we desperately need a blinding flashes type skill back, the sword and shield reflect is miles better than our own skill, and radial sweep and rite of passage are ultimates so uninspiring that we look elsewhere? If ZoS spent half as much time contemplating how to buff our many skills that even other classes say are bad instead of nerfing the few that we do use, templars would be a lot more interesting, diverse, and fun to play.
Sed ut perspiciatis unde omnis iste natus error sit voluptatem accusantium dolorem que laudantium, totam rem aperiam, eaque ipsa quae ab illo inventore veritatis et quasi architecto beatae vitae dicta sunt explicabo. Nemo enim ipsam voluptatem quia voluptas sit aspernatur aut odit aut fugit, sed quia consequuntur magni dolores eos qui ratione voluptatem sequi nesciunt. Neque porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit, sed quia non numquam eius modi tempora incidunt ut labore et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem. Ut enim ad minima veniam, quis nostrum exercitationem ullam corporis suscipit laboriosam, nisi ut aliquid ex ea commodi consequatur? Quis autem vel eum iure reprehenderit qui in ea voluptate velit esse quam nihil molestiae consequatur, vel illum qui dolorem eum fugiat quo voluptas nulla pariatur?1 -
Essiaga✭✭✭✭After speaking to @ZOS_Seiffer on a Hodor raid stream last night he assured me that developers are reading all feedback made on the PTS forum at the moment. If you really want your point across make sure its thorough, indepth and well argumented, and not just some snippy comment about you wanting a buff or a nerf.
We went this route, a few times. If they don't know by now ... If you have his ear ask for Class discussion via Twitch where we can select a few representative of the class to be our go between so they can hear what we have to say and give us the reasons they refuse to do them.
We have no champion in the streamer community or with ZOS. Just people bitching about BOL. I know Blab, and others stream but they are not championing the fight for balance. They're just finding ways to win with less and I truly believe they like it that way. They enjoy the hard mode that is the templar class.
The issues with this class has been spelled out over and over and HAVE NOT CHANGED in about a year. The templar is LESS capable of standing its ground but required to do so MORE with this update. We don't need another buff to Dark Flare (same thing they did last year) just to have it nerfed because its OP (same thing they did last year). We need mitigation, better passives (regen, stacking stats, anything), and more utility and less restriction out of our skills.
I DON'T WANT MOBILITY!! I want mitigation and skills that make me NO stronger 1v1 but STRONGER 1vX since that is were a 'Stand Your Ground' class will find themselves.
These are the skills that do that for us currently ...
- Puncturing Strikes - 40% damage return as healing (soon to be 35%). (Magicka Morph)
- Sun Shield - Shield size and AOE damage. (RENDERED USESLESS BY BATTLE SPIRIT)
Blinding Flashes used to be the epitome of this. Mass Hysteria, Reflective Scales ... We need a skill or skills like this.
Suggestions.
SOLAR BARRAGE ... add debuff Major Maim ... then fix the animation so it isn't a self root.
RUNE FOCUS ... add Major Evasion to the base skill that carries over to both morphs and acts just like the other 2 buffs. 8 secs unless in the rune.
RADIANT AURA ... Rework to be "Preempt" ...
Gives resource return based on damage ... health return (25%), magicka return (15%), and Stamina Return (8%) ... ever 2 seconds for 6-8 seconds. The recovered resources will also be granted to party members in a 12 m radius.
This would make backlash more viable too as it will be value added. This would make it more feasible to standing your ground with Shards, Solar Barrage, Sweeps/jabs, and even the crappy Sun Shield (though not by much) more viable due to there AOE damage, BUT ITS ALL BASED ON DAMAGE making it self balancing but still useful for all roles depending on the duration and the cost. Stam builds could get value from this morph OR Repentance.
Repentence ... change the Minor Endurance to Major Endurance when slotted.
Those changes will add some mitigation and resource return to the class that we don't get currently and other class get passively. Preempt would obviously take some time but it cant take much to add Maim, Evasion, or Endurance to a skill before TG goes live.
Other Changes ...
Bitting Jabs ... Replace Savagery with Beserk or Brutality buff.
Eclipse ... revert to single target spells. Add Major Breech debuff for 8 secs. Apply damage when CC broken or Purged.
Backlash ... Prevents affected enemies from going into stealth. Maybe add Berserk or Force or even Empower buff for caster to help with use in PVP as its purely a party skill and more so according to patch notes and comments in this thread.
Eclipse, Radiant Destruction, and Backlash SHOULD ... NOT ... HEAL. They're in the DPS tree. At best they should return resources. Preempt (as i suggested) would replace those heals. Radiant Destruction would benefit more by having CC immunity or 2 seconds of Expedition to off set the self snare.Edited by Essiaga on February 9, 2016 3:56PM1 -
Zinaroth✭✭✭✭✭
✭After speaking to @ZOS_Seiffer on a Hodor raid stream last night he assured me that developers are reading all feedback made on the PTS forum at the moment. If you really want your point across make sure its thorough, indepth and well argumented, and not just some snippy comment about you wanting a buff or a nerf.
We went this route, a few times. If they don't know by now ... If you have his ear ask for Class discussion via Twitch where we can select a few representative of the class to be our go between so they can hear what we have to say and give us the reasons they refuse to do them.
We have no champion in the streamer community or with ZOS. Just people bitching about BOL. I know Blab, and others stream but they are not championing the fight for balance. They're just finding ways to win with less and I truly believe they like it that way. They enjoy the hard mode that is the templar class.
Does "we" exclude me? I know you read and commented my Stamplar topic and I have been pretty active in terms of Templar class balancing ever since I came on the forums. I feel you're purposely neglecting that to segregate me from everyone else providing feedback? Just because we haven't gotten what we needed yet doesn't mean that was I stated isn't true. Maybe ZOS is very aware of the issue with Templars but are just very bad at executing the needed changes?
Anyway I did not mean to stir up *** I was merely relaying what I was told after a private discussion with one of the ZOS developers, Seiffer works on the dungeons and trials team though so he himself is not working on class balance.
Posted it to encourage people to keep giving feedback and not give up, because I myself have felt very discouraged lately. Even been devoting all my ingame time on getting a Stamina DK up and running so I atleast have some kind of Stamina character that is worth bringing into trials.Edited by Zinaroth on February 9, 2016 3:58PM1 -
kaalmoth✭✭✭ZOS_KNowak wrote: »Joy_Division,
Thanks for bringing this to our attention. This change was intended, and we apologize for missing the patch note for it. Ultimately, the rationale was that the change to the Focused Healing passive means Puncturing Sweep is now eligible for that healing bonus and will heal for more than compared to Live. So we reduced Puncturing Sweep's healing by 5% to compensate; in the end, it's still a net buff to total healing.
I get it, you had to nerf the healing from jabs, cause we got that healing bonus going on. Its a give far a take right? Just like you did for BOL, you took 25% of that spell utility to give us...?
0 -
AfkNinja✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZOS_KNowak wrote: »Joy_Division,
Thanks for bringing this to our attention. This change was intended, and we apologize for missing the patch note for it. Ultimately, the rationale was that the change to the Focused Healing passive means Puncturing Sweep is now eligible for that healing bonus and will heal for more than compared to Live. So we reduced Puncturing Sweep's healing by 5% to compensate; in the end, it's still a net buff to total healing.
I get it, you had to nerf the healing from jabs, cause we got that healing bonus going on. Its a give far a take right? Just like you did for BOL, you took 25% of that spell utility to give us...?
+12% damage on dark flare....which will be reversed before live....just like last patch...1 -
Essiaga✭✭✭✭After speaking to @ZOS_Seiffer on a Hodor raid stream last night he assured me that developers are reading all feedback made on the PTS forum at the moment. If you really want your point across make sure its thorough, indepth and well argumented, and not just some snippy comment about you wanting a buff or a nerf.
We went this route, a few times. If they don't know by now ... If you have his ear ask for Class discussion via Twitch where we can select a few representative of the class to be our go between so they can hear what we have to say and give us the reasons they refuse to do them.
We have no champion in the streamer community or with ZOS. Just people bitching about BOL. I know Blab, and others stream but they are not championing the fight for balance. They're just finding ways to win with less and I truly believe they like it that way. They enjoy the hard mode that is the templar class.
Does "we" exclude me? I know you read and commented my Stamplar topic and I have been pretty active in terms of Templar class balancing ever since I came on the forums. I feel you're purposely neglecting that to segregate me from everyone else providing feedback? Just because we haven't gotten what we needed yet doesn't mean that was I stated isn't true. Maybe ZOS is very aware of the issue with Templars but are just very bad at executing the needed changes?
Anyway I did not mean to stir up *** I was merely relaying what I was told after a private discussion with one of the ZOS developers, Seiffer works on the dungeons and trials team though so he himself is not working on class balance.
Posted it to encourage people to keep giving feedback and not give up, because I myself have felt very discouraged lately. Even been devoting all my ingame time on getting a Stamina DK up and running so I atleast have some kind of Stamina character that is worth bringing into trials.
I'm not exactly sure what your saying, but I definitely see you as a leader of the templar class and have seen you all over the templar threads. If you mean that you stream, I'd have to admit I don't really watch streams. I've only seen a handful of templar videos when doing searches on youtube and following "We are ESO" that completely lacks any commentary on Templar beyond hate for BOL (which is what I was specifically referring too and probably should have stated).
If you're just referring to the post, I was making a general statement, not addressing you directly. You are definitely part of the "we," probably more so then me. Your posts have been very insightful and way more constructive then mine. You are 1 of 3-4 people I had in mind to represent the Templar class in such Class discussions as you are present and objective where as I'm mostly bitter and frustrated with ZOS, and in all honestly other things going on in life which spills over. I wasn't questioning your statement but was making the serious suggestion but didn't know if you had direct contact or if it was indirect.
I didn't mean to direct anything negative towards you and I'm sincerely sorry if it came off that way. I've got nothing but respect for you.2 -
Zinaroth✭✭✭✭✭
✭After speaking to @ZOS_Seiffer on a Hodor raid stream last night he assured me that developers are reading all feedback made on the PTS forum at the moment. If you really want your point across make sure its thorough, indepth and well argumented, and not just some snippy comment about you wanting a buff or a nerf.
We went this route, a few times. If they don't know by now ... If you have his ear ask for Class discussion via Twitch where we can select a few representative of the class to be our go between so they can hear what we have to say and give us the reasons they refuse to do them.
We have no champion in the streamer community or with ZOS. Just people bitching about BOL. I know Blab, and others stream but they are not championing the fight for balance. They're just finding ways to win with less and I truly believe they like it that way. They enjoy the hard mode that is the templar class.
Does "we" exclude me? I know you read and commented my Stamplar topic and I have been pretty active in terms of Templar class balancing ever since I came on the forums. I feel you're purposely neglecting that to segregate me from everyone else providing feedback? Just because we haven't gotten what we needed yet doesn't mean that was I stated isn't true. Maybe ZOS is very aware of the issue with Templars but are just very bad at executing the needed changes?
Anyway I did not mean to stir up *** I was merely relaying what I was told after a private discussion with one of the ZOS developers, Seiffer works on the dungeons and trials team though so he himself is not working on class balance.
Posted it to encourage people to keep giving feedback and not give up, because I myself have felt very discouraged lately. Even been devoting all my ingame time on getting a Stamina DK up and running so I atleast have some kind of Stamina character that is worth bringing into trials.
I'm not exactly sure what your saying, but I definitely see you as a leader of the templar class and have seen you all over the templar threads. If you mean that you stream, I'd have to admit I don't really watch streams. I've only seen a handful of templar videos when doing searches on youtube and following "We are ESO" that completely lacks any commentary on Templar beyond hate for BOL (which is what I was specifically referring too and probably should have stated).
If you're just referring to the post, I was making a general statement, not addressing you directly. You are definitely part of the "we," probably more so then me. Your posts have been very insightful and way more constructive then mine. You are 1 of 3-4 people I had in mind to represent the Templar class in such Class discussions as you are present and objective where as I'm mostly bitter and frustrated with ZOS, and in all honestly other things going on in life which spills over. I wasn't questioning your statement but was making the serious suggestion but didn't know if you had direct contact or if it was indirect.
I didn't mean to direct anything negative towards you and I'm sincerely sorry if it came off that way. I've got nothing but respect for you.
Nono. No harm done. Just wanted to know where you were coming from.
Thank you for your kind words.
I definately share your frustration. Never had any of my feedback aknowledged.
Only posted what Seiffer told me encourage people to keep trying, and mot give up on the class as I was about to.1 -
contact.opiumb16_ESO✭✭✭✭Well - if you take into account that you can now easily get major mending on your sweep heals as a templar i´d say it´s a change you can live with.
So... while I am standing still in a very small area, I can briefly get major mending. If I stand still and don't attempt to move out of the way of any attacks coming towards me. As long as I stand still it's all OK?
I would not declare purifying ritual a very small area.itscompton wrote: »
Only my personal opinion from playing a templar in pve admittedly. I will prefer 35% heal on sweep with a 25% heal increase over 40% heal without the major mending.
Hooooooo Derra please stop your lies. You know nothing about templars, you proved it in many threads in the past. Please go to sorcerers threads to explain one more time how sorcerers are in line with other classes, why Shild Breaker Set is a OP game breaker, why sorcerers needs huge shield stacks because "we are so squishy and have no heals" etc...0