Stealth nerf to Puncturing Sweep :(

itscompton

Derra wrote: »

Well - if you take into account that you can now easily get major mending on your sweep heals as a templar i´d say it´s a change you can live with.

Sure let's nerf sorc shields down to nothing and you can live with that. Go troll somewhere else.

eliisra

Destruent wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

...And Cleansing ritual doesn't proc the 30% healing anymore or what?

If only Rune Focus procs the major mending buff, all the rage is valid, but last I checked, Cleansing Ritual does proc it as well...

It does...you can use cleansing ritual to get major mending. So i don't see a problem with it. I already use this skill for PvP and for PvE...doesn't matter, healers will keep me alive.

You dont see the problem with having to recast Rune or Purifying Ritual every single time you move or gap close in PvP or PvE, to make up for the healing nerf done to Puncturing Sweep? ESO is a game that requires constant movement.

Besides Purifying Ritual is a completely different skill with different utility. I use Rune for magicka regeneration and armor buff. Purify for specific content with a lot of snares, when solo. There's content where you only use the Rune, not always space for both. Most stages in vMA for example.

If templars had a skill that procc'ed Major Mending and stuck with player while moving for a longer duration, like DK shield, I wouldn't have any problems with this nerf. But that's sadly not the case.

Destruent

eliisra wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

...And Cleansing ritual doesn't proc the 30% healing anymore or what?

If only Rune Focus procs the major mending buff, all the rage is valid, but last I checked, Cleansing Ritual does proc it as well...

It does...you can use cleansing ritual to get major mending. So i don't see a problem with it. I already use this skill for PvP and for PvE...doesn't matter, healers will keep me alive.

You dont see the problem with having to recast Rune or Purifying Ritual every single time you move or gap close in PvP or PvE, to make up for the healing nerf done to Puncturing Sweep? ESO is a game that requires constant movement.

Besides Purifying Ritual is a completely different skill with different utility. I use Rune for magicka regeneration and armor buff. Purify for specific content with a lot of snares, when solo. There's content where you only use the Rune, not always space for both. Most stages in vMA for example.

If templars had a skill that procc'ed Major Mending and stuck with player while moving for a longer duration, like DK shield, I wouldn't have any problems with this nerf. But that's sadly not the case.

I know all this stuff...i've grinded vMSA on my temp for about a month daily, i'm also pvping a lot atm and i'm okay with it. Sweeps won't keep you alive all the time atm on live, doesn't matter which content you choose.

Zinaroth

Mumyo wrote: »

DID THEY INCREASE THE COSTS? can someone check that out pls?
If thats the case.... DUUUUUUUUUUDE!

Maybe lower the cost of surprise attack xD and give it a heal too since it allready gives defense and attack bonuses.
I DONT GET THIS.

Just tested this with Puncturing Sweep, the magicka morph of Puncturing Strikes.

On Live it costs 2160 magicka with 2 points into the Restoring Spirit passive (4% reduced cost) in the Dawn's Wrath class skill line and 100 points into the Magician champion passive (16% reduced cost) in The Tower tree, and no other passives.

On PTS it costs 2160 magicka with 2 points into the Restoring Spirit passive (4% reduced cost) in the Dawn's Wrath class skill line and 100 points into the Magician champion passive (16% reduced cost) in The Tower tree, and no other passives.

I don't have a Stamina Templar on live to test Biting Jabs, the stamina morph of Puncturing Strikes, with, but I expect it will be the same result.

So this just seems to a myth to further enrage the player base. I understand people are frustrated, so am I, but let's keep the discussions based around actual problems and not discredit our entire community with falsified data to prove a point, we don't need that, we already have very strong points and data to back up our arguments.

timidobserver

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Joy_Division,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. This change was intended, and we apologize for missing the patch note for it. Ultimately, the rationale was that the change to the Focused Healing passive means Puncturing Sweep is now eligible for that healing bonus and will heal for more than compared to Live. So we reduced Puncturing Sweep's healing by 5% to compensate; in the end, it's still a net buff to total healing.

Thanks for the clarification and giving us the reason for the change. Would you mind explaining the increase in cost?

@ZOS_KNowak

Destruent

timidobserver wrote: »

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Joy_Division,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. This change was intended, and we apologize for missing the patch note for it. Ultimately, the rationale was that the change to the Focused Healing passive means Puncturing Sweep is now eligible for that healing bonus and will heal for more than compared to Live. So we reduced Puncturing Sweep's healing by 5% to compensate; in the end, it's still a net buff to total healing.

Thanks for the clarification and giving us the reason for the change. Would you mind explaining the increase in cost?

@ZOS_KNowak

As stated by @Zinaroth there is no cost increase...maybe you just set your CP differently?

Joy_Division

I noticed the cost difference to, but I believe that's because on the PTS I have 300 CPs whereas on live I have 500.

To those who say "it doesn't matter because sweeps won't keep you alive" or "all you have to do is put down a purify," it really isn't the point. I know 5% is not going to matter in 95% of the fights and content I engage in. It is precisely because it's not a big deal that this nerf is gratuitous and a slap in the face considering all the cumbersome abilities we are stuck with that few of us use.

As far as putting down a purifying ritual, it is inaccurate to say it's that easy and it should be assumed it's a given. I know from my own personal experience that purifying is not down as often as I'd like and it's something I do try prioritize. What's the first thing most templars do after toppling charge? Jabs! Because jabs locks us into one place and requires the target to cooperate and stay in the same place; having the target on the ground is really the only way to guarantee all 4 hit! Now ZoS wants us to toppling charge, lay down a purify, and THEN jab while the opponent has already broken the CC and is likely moving away (or beginning a wrecking blow!). It really frustrates me when nerfs are justified by theoretical situations that are not as common as is assumed. I fight you fellow templars every night in PvP and a lot of times I don't see it under your feet either so I reject the idea that my experiences are atypical.

Destruent

Joy_Division wrote: »

I noticed the cost difference to, but I believe that's because on the PTS I have 300 CPs whereas on live I have 500.

To those who say "it doesn't matter because sweeps won't keep you alive" or "all you have to do is put down a purify," it really isn't the point. I know 5% is not going to matter in 95% of the fights and content I engage in. It is precisely because it's not a big deal that this nerf is gratuitous and a slap in the face to all the cumbersome abilities we are stuck with that none of us use.

As far as putting down a purifying ritual, it is inaccurate to say it's that easy and it should be assumed it's a given. I know from my own personal experience that purifying is not down as often as I'd like and it's something I do try prioritize. What's the first thing most templars do after toppling charge? Jabs! Because jabs locks us into one place and requires the target to cooprerate and stay in the same place; having the target on the ground is really the only way to guarantee all 4 hit! Now ZoS wants us to toppling charge, lay down a purify, and THEN jab while the opponent has already broken the CC and is likely moving away (or beginning a wrecking blow!). It really frustrates me when nerfs are justified by theoretical situations that are not as common as is assumed. I fight you fellow templars every night in PvP and a lot of times I don't see it under your feet either so I reject the idea that my experiences are atypical.

If your target is on the ground it can't attack you. Why do you need heals in this moment?

Joy_Division

Destruent wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I noticed the cost difference to, but I believe that's because on the PTS I have 300 CPs whereas on live I have 500.

To those who say "it doesn't matter because sweeps won't keep you alive" or "all you have to do is put down a purify," it really isn't the point. I know 5% is not going to matter in 95% of the fights and content I engage in. It is precisely because it's not a big deal that this nerf is gratuitous and a slap in the face to all the cumbersome abilities we are stuck with that none of us use.

As far as putting down a purifying ritual, it is inaccurate to say it's that easy and it should be assumed it's a given. I know from my own personal experience that purifying is not down as often as I'd like and it's something I do try prioritize. What's the first thing most templars do after toppling charge? Jabs! Because jabs locks us into one place and requires the target to cooprerate and stay in the same place; having the target on the ground is really the only way to guarantee all 4 hit! Now ZoS wants us to toppling charge, lay down a purify, and THEN jab while the opponent has already broken the CC and is likely moving away (or beginning a wrecking blow!). It really frustrates me when nerfs are justified by theoretical situations that are not as common as is assumed. I fight you fellow templars every night in PvP and a lot of times I don't see it under your feet either so I reject the idea that my experiences are atypical.

If your target is on the ground it can't attack you. Why do you need heals in this moment?

Because I was at 50% health and needed to interrupt a caster, or wanted to get out of a enemy Nova, or tried to finish of a wounded target, etc.

AfkNinja

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Joy_Division,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. This change was intended, and we apologize for missing the patch note for it. Ultimately, the rationale was that the change to the Focused Healing passive means Puncturing Sweep is now eligible for that healing bonus and will heal for more than compared to Live. So we reduced Puncturing Sweep's healing by 5% to compensate; in the end, it's still a net buff to total healing.

@ZOS_KNowak

I appreciate the response. I am going to remain respectful. I don't want this thread closed. I know you folks at ZoS have an impossible job to please all of your customer base with its diverse opinions on what constitutes balance and exciting gameplay. I understand that. But there are reasons I made this topic that go beyond a 5% nerf.

Emotions are high on the templar side because, even it was unintended, there has been a history of undocumented nerfs to templar skills. All of us who played since beta can recite them. The two that really have stuck with me are the Toppling Charge global cooldown and the Eclipse single target restriction. There was no outcry for such nerfs and yet here they are in the game, both put in without nary an acknowledgement. This is incredibly frustrating. Who ever complained about eclipse being OP?

And then there are the listed nerfs. Nerfs to signature class skills are a big deal and the ones done to Purifying Ritual and Breath of Life seemed to be too casual. I am sure that perception is incorrect and ZoS put a lot of thought into it. But hear me out. Purify and Breath are what make templars templars as opposed to generic magicka DPS who stack spell damage. It's one thing to make a concession to the vocal part of the community who feels there is too much healing in Cyrodiil. It's something entirely different to do so without making any sort of recompense that takes into account the cost of the skill, how it functions, etc. If ZoS wants to argue that purify was never intended to cleanse incoming projectiles, fine, I can see the logic. But whether or not it was intended is irrelevant because purifying meteors was a part of Cyrodiil class balance. Many admitted templar tanking was found wanting even with that "bug" and yet again templars lost something with no compensation. ZoS says purify works now just like cleanse and that's right, it now has the functionality of a generic alliance war skill, one which allies have to actually use a synergy to derive the benefits of. Are we supposed to be excited about that? These are not just irrefutable net losses, but an outright loss of templar distinctiveness.

Also, no other class has had a history of having so many wonky, awkward, cumbersome, and inefficient abilities as templars. I don't know what the metrics are telling ZoS and maybe it's me and the particular people I play with (i.e the entire NA server homed on the pop-locked Azura's Star and more PuG dailies than I'd like), but it is the rare occasion I see any templar use healing ritual, radiant aura, rite of passage, radial sweep, or sunfire. Sun shield is niche. Eclipse is impractical. Every decent DPS ability we have leaves us 100% vulnerable to enemy attack. It's not like these are secrets or simply a corner-case perspective held by hardcore elitists, it's pretty much public knowledge for anyone who hops in just about any teamspeak on a given night. And yet here we are again, another February for class balance, and healing ritual is still a double no-no because of a cast time and no mobility, radiant aura still rendered moot by a common potion, and blazing shield, our signature defensive ability that for most builds is incapable of mitigating a single attack by an enemy player, didn't even get the 1% buff. There is disappointment.

In short, the undocumented nerf to Puncturing Sweep is emblematic of a larger frustration among templars.

******

And it still bothers me because I don't buy the rationale.

On Live my my tooltip damage is around 1000 per sweep so let's use that to be simple. I damage NB for 1000. I heal 400.

Now on PTS, let's say I damage that same NB for 1000. I am healed 350.

That is the default case and that is a nerf.

*****

Your stated rationale only comes into to play if I have the have the focused healing passive. This is no guarantee yet it is being treated like it is a given. It's not.

I can most assuredly tell you that while I would like to always be fighting in my purifying ritual or ehem...remained stationary [!] in my channeled focus...it's not that easy and it doesn't always work out that way. There are many situations where we are taking upwards of 10,000 damage every second when using a global cooldown to essentially "punt" - a skill that does zero damage to the enemy nor impedes them, a skill that does not heal me at that moment and a skill that also will no longer cleanse stuff about to hit me - is not always feasible. Even if I do get that ritual or focus down, what do I do when my opponent moves out of it or in Maelstrom arena when those 7K DPS archers who stand out in the middle of the water, or the Spider boss on stage 6 where I have to move to the totems, or the final boss in Maelstrom where I have to dodge lich crystals, interrupt the boss, chase gold ghosts and prevent the summoners from spawning a colossus? I cannot stay in one spot! ZoS designed this game in such a way where it is now disadvantageous to do so and now Zos is telling me I have to stand in one area or spam these skills every time I move just to avoid this nerf?

That is not a net buff to healing. That is a potential situational buff to healing, a small one at that: I'd be getting 437, let's not pretend this all of a sudden "fixes" what Nifty correctly pointed out - it can't crit, doesn't work on damage shields, subject to battle spirit reduction. And this situation runs counter to ZoS's latest PvE game design and the realities of Cyrodiil combat.

*****

But here is the thing: did ZoS have to put that nerf in? How is it that ZoS went through so much micro-analysis considering the potential addition of the mending passive and not take into account the overall state of the now flimsier templar with its purify "fixed," 25% less healing from breath, and to be confined to within its rune focus? Isn't this missing the forest for the trees? Would it not to have made more sense to say, "Hey, you know templars are losing some of their ability to sustain/mitigate and it's pretty obvious after a year that tanking is already under-powered in cyrodiil. They're probably going to need that mending bonus whenever they can get it so let's compensate those templars who do try to stand their ground with a bit of extra healing from their sweeps and not punish those who attempt to stay mobile."

How is there so much consideration given to reducing the default effectiveness of our most used offensive skill and so little consideration given to increasing the default effectiveness of those many skills so few of us use? It is absolutely mind-blowing that ZoS is so concerned about the melee effectiveness of a class that nobody thinks is overpowered and yet so apathetic to the continuous voices that have told ZoS time and time and time again that healing ritual is bad, we desperately need a blinding flashes type skill back, the sword and shield reflect is miles better than our own skill, and radial sweep and rite of passage are ultimates so uninspiring that we look elsewhere? If ZoS spent half as much time contemplating how to buff our many skills that even other classes say are bad instead of nerfing the few that we do use, templars would be a lot more interesting, diverse, and fun to play.

Slow clap that builds to a roar. You def needed a mic drop gif for that.

gph.is/1LlMMlR

Bazeric

Joy_Division wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I noticed the cost difference to, but I believe that's because on the PTS I have 300 CPs whereas on live I have 500.

To those who say "it doesn't matter because sweeps won't keep you alive" or "all you have to do is put down a purify," it really isn't the point. I know 5% is not going to matter in 95% of the fights and content I engage in. It is precisely because it's not a big deal that this nerf is gratuitous and a slap in the face to all the cumbersome abilities we are stuck with that none of us use.

As far as putting down a purifying ritual, it is inaccurate to say it's that easy and it should be assumed it's a given. I know from my own personal experience that purifying is not down as often as I'd like and it's something I do try prioritize. What's the first thing most templars do after toppling charge? Jabs! Because jabs locks us into one place and requires the target to cooprerate and stay in the same place; having the target on the ground is really the only way to guarantee all 4 hit! Now ZoS wants us to toppling charge, lay down a purify, and THEN jab while the opponent has already broken the CC and is likely moving away (or beginning a wrecking blow!). It really frustrates me when nerfs are justified by theoretical situations that are not as common as is assumed. I fight you fellow templars every night in PvP and a lot of times I don't see it under your feet either so I reject the idea that my experiences are atypical.

If your target is on the ground it can't attack you. Why do you need heals in this moment?

Because I was at 50% health and needed to interrupt a caster, or wanted to get out of a enemy Nova, or tried to finish of a wounded target, etc.

But what you meant to reply is that to get the full benefit of the change and for it "not" to be considered a nerf this is what you have to do. Right?

Derra

Epona222 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Well - if you take into account that you can now easily get major mending on your sweep heals as a templar i´d say it´s a change you can live with.

So... while I am standing still in a very small area, I can briefly get major mending. If I stand still and don't attempt to move out of the way of any attacks coming towards me. As long as I stand still it's all OK?

I would not declare purifying ritual a very small area.

itscompton wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Well - if you take into account that you can now easily get major mending on your sweep heals as a templar i´d say it´s a change you can live with.

Sure let's nerf sorc shields down to nothing and you can live with that. Go troll somewhere else.

Only my personal opinion from playing a templar in pve admittedly. I will prefer 35% heal on sweep with a 25% heal increase over 40% heal without the major mending.

AfkNinja

Derra wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Well - if you take into account that you can now easily get major mending on your sweep heals as a templar i´d say it´s a change you can live with.

So... while I am standing still in a very small area, I can briefly get major mending. If I stand still and don't attempt to move out of the way of any attacks coming towards me. As long as I stand still it's all OK?

I would not declare purifying ritual a very small area.

itscompton wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Well - if you take into account that you can now easily get major mending on your sweep heals as a templar i´d say it´s a change you can live with.

Sure let's nerf sorc shields down to nothing and you can live with that. Go troll somewhere else.

Only my personal opinion from playing a templar in pve admittedly. I will prefer 35% heal on sweep with a 25% heal increase over 40% heal without the major mending.

Not when you take Templar to VMA and have to recast ritual or rune constantly while moving around the arena....and then there's PVP which is what most of us are mad about. 1 Gap closer and we are no longer in the ritual...

UrQuan

Destruent wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I noticed the cost difference to, but I believe that's because on the PTS I have 300 CPs whereas on live I have 500.

To those who say "it doesn't matter because sweeps won't keep you alive" or "all you have to do is put down a purify," it really isn't the point. I know 5% is not going to matter in 95% of the fights and content I engage in. It is precisely because it's not a big deal that this nerf is gratuitous and a slap in the face to all the cumbersome abilities we are stuck with that none of us use.

As far as putting down a purifying ritual, it is inaccurate to say it's that easy and it should be assumed it's a given. I know from my own personal experience that purifying is not down as often as I'd like and it's something I do try prioritize. What's the first thing most templars do after toppling charge? Jabs! Because jabs locks us into one place and requires the target to cooprerate and stay in the same place; having the target on the ground is really the only way to guarantee all 4 hit! Now ZoS wants us to toppling charge, lay down a purify, and THEN jab while the opponent has already broken the CC and is likely moving away (or beginning a wrecking blow!). It really frustrates me when nerfs are justified by theoretical situations that are not as common as is assumed. I fight you fellow templars every night in PvP and a lot of times I don't see it under your feet either so I reject the idea that my experiences are atypical.

If your target is on the ground it can't attack you. Why do you need heals in this moment?

Haven't you ever been in a combat where there's more than one enemy? Or where the target you're attacking has dropped an AOE?

DHale

Derra wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Well - if you take into account that you can now easily get major mending on your sweep heals as a templar i´d say it´s a change you can live with.

So... while I am standing still in a very small area, I can briefly get major mending. If I stand still and don't attempt to move out of the way of any attacks coming towards me. As long as I stand still it's all OK?

I would not declare purifying ritual a very small area.

itscompton wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Well - if you take into account that you can now easily get major mending on your sweep heals as a templar i´d say it´s a change you can live with.

Sure let's nerf sorc shields down to nothing and you can live with that. Go troll somewhere else.

Only my personal opinion from playing a templar in pve admittedly. I will prefer 35% heal on sweep with a 25% heal increase over 40% heal without the major mending.

How are you going to get major mending so before you start EVERY sweep you will need a ritual or rune and have to stay in it. As a Templar of over 20 months ( now retired) when I see Templars throw down a ritual or rune I will dodge roll back and move out of it then you will need to come to me then repeat my dodge roll or you can Risk it toppling to me then I will do it again. I am not going to let you get major mending. And without the ritual or rune you won't have it. go ahead test it on pts I double dog dare you. Let me know we can level our dks together.

bikerangelo

AfkNinja wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Joy_Division,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. This change was intended, and we apologize for missing the patch note for it. Ultimately, the rationale was that the change to the Focused Healing passive means Puncturing Sweep is now eligible for that healing bonus and will heal for more than compared to Live. So we reduced Puncturing Sweep's healing by 5% to compensate; in the end, it's still a net buff to total healing.

@ZOS_KNowak

I appreciate the response. I am going to remain respectful. I don't want this thread closed. I know you folks at ZoS have an impossible job to please all of your customer base with its diverse opinions on what constitutes balance and exciting gameplay. I understand that. But there are reasons I made this topic that go beyond a 5% nerf.

Emotions are high on the templar side because, even it was unintended, there has been a history of undocumented nerfs to templar skills. All of us who played since beta can recite them. The two that really have stuck with me are the Toppling Charge global cooldown and the Eclipse single target restriction. There was no outcry for such nerfs and yet here they are in the game, both put in without nary an acknowledgement. This is incredibly frustrating. Who ever complained about eclipse being OP?

And then there are the listed nerfs. Nerfs to signature class skills are a big deal and the ones done to Purifying Ritual and Breath of Life seemed to be too casual. I am sure that perception is incorrect and ZoS put a lot of thought into it. But hear me out. Purify and Breath are what make templars templars as opposed to generic magicka DPS who stack spell damage. It's one thing to make a concession to the vocal part of the community who feels there is too much healing in Cyrodiil. It's something entirely different to do so without making any sort of recompense that takes into account the cost of the skill, how it functions, etc. If ZoS wants to argue that purify was never intended to cleanse incoming projectiles, fine, I can see the logic. But whether or not it was intended is irrelevant because purifying meteors was a part of Cyrodiil class balance. Many admitted templar tanking was found wanting even with that "bug" and yet again templars lost something with no compensation. ZoS says purify works now just like cleanse and that's right, it now has the functionality of a generic alliance war skill, one which allies have to actually use a synergy to derive the benefits of. Are we supposed to be excited about that? These are not just irrefutable net losses, but an outright loss of templar distinctiveness.

Also, no other class has had a history of having so many wonky, awkward, cumbersome, and inefficient abilities as templars. I don't know what the metrics are telling ZoS and maybe it's me and the particular people I play with (i.e the entire NA server homed on the pop-locked Azura's Star and more PuG dailies than I'd like), but it is the rare occasion I see any templar use healing ritual, radiant aura, rite of passage, radial sweep, or sunfire. Sun shield is niche. Eclipse is impractical. Every decent DPS ability we have leaves us 100% vulnerable to enemy attack. It's not like these are secrets or simply a corner-case perspective held by hardcore elitists, it's pretty much public knowledge for anyone who hops in just about any teamspeak on a given night. And yet here we are again, another February for class balance, and healing ritual is still a double no-no because of a cast time and no mobility, radiant aura still rendered moot by a common potion, and blazing shield, our signature defensive ability that for most builds is incapable of mitigating a single attack by an enemy player, didn't even get the 1% buff. There is disappointment.

In short, the undocumented nerf to Puncturing Sweep is emblematic of a larger frustration among templars.

******

And it still bothers me because I don't buy the rationale.

On Live my my tooltip damage is around 1000 per sweep so let's use that to be simple. I damage NB for 1000. I heal 400.

Now on PTS, let's say I damage that same NB for 1000. I am healed 350.

That is the default case and that is a nerf.

*****

Your stated rationale only comes into to play if I have the have the focused healing passive. This is no guarantee yet it is being treated like it is a given. It's not.

I can most assuredly tell you that while I would like to always be fighting in my purifying ritual or ehem...remained stationary [!] in my channeled focus...it's not that easy and it doesn't always work out that way. There are many situations where we are taking upwards of 10,000 damage every second when using a global cooldown to essentially "punt" - a skill that does zero damage to the enemy nor impedes them, a skill that does not heal me at that moment and a skill that also will no longer cleanse stuff about to hit me - is not always feasible. Even if I do get that ritual or focus down, what do I do when my opponent moves out of it or in Maelstrom arena when those 7K DPS archers who stand out in the middle of the water, or the Spider boss on stage 6 where I have to move to the totems, or the final boss in Maelstrom where I have to dodge lich crystals, interrupt the boss, chase gold ghosts and prevent the summoners from spawning a colossus? I cannot stay in one spot! ZoS designed this game in such a way where it is now disadvantageous to do so and now Zos is telling me I have to stand in one area or spam these skills every time I move just to avoid this nerf?

That is not a net buff to healing. That is a potential situational buff to healing, a small one at that: I'd be getting 437, let's not pretend this all of a sudden "fixes" what Nifty correctly pointed out - it can't crit, doesn't work on damage shields, subject to battle spirit reduction. And this situation runs counter to ZoS's latest PvE game design and the realities of Cyrodiil combat.

*****

But here is the thing: did ZoS have to put that nerf in? How is it that ZoS went through so much micro-analysis considering the potential addition of the mending passive and not take into account the overall state of the now flimsier templar with its purify "fixed," 25% less healing from breath, and to be confined to within its rune focus? Isn't this missing the forest for the trees? Would it not to have made more sense to say, "Hey, you know templars are losing some of their ability to sustain/mitigate and it's pretty obvious after a year that tanking is already under-powered in cyrodiil. They're probably going to need that mending bonus whenever they can get it so let's compensate those templars who do try to stand their ground with a bit of extra healing from their sweeps and not punish those who attempt to stay mobile."

How is there so much consideration given to reducing the default effectiveness of our most used offensive skill and so little consideration given to increasing the default effectiveness of those many skills so few of us use? It is absolutely mind-blowing that ZoS is so concerned about the melee effectiveness of a class that nobody thinks is overpowered and yet so apathetic to the continuous voices that have told ZoS time and time and time again that healing ritual is bad, we desperately need a blinding flashes type skill back, the sword and shield reflect is miles better than our own skill, and radial sweep and rite of passage are ultimates so uninspiring that we look elsewhere? If ZoS spent half as much time contemplating how to buff our many skills that even other classes say are bad instead of nerfing the few that we do use, templars would be a lot more interesting, diverse, and fun to play.

Slow clap that builds to a roar. You def needed a mic drop gif for that.

gph.is/1LlMMlR

AfkNinja

bikerangelo wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Joy_Division,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. This change was intended, and we apologize for missing the patch note for it. Ultimately, the rationale was that the change to the Focused Healing passive means Puncturing Sweep is now eligible for that healing bonus and will heal for more than compared to Live. So we reduced Puncturing Sweep's healing by 5% to compensate; in the end, it's still a net buff to total healing.

@ZOS_KNowak

I appreciate the response. I am going to remain respectful. I don't want this thread closed. I know you folks at ZoS have an impossible job to please all of your customer base with its diverse opinions on what constitutes balance and exciting gameplay. I understand that. But there are reasons I made this topic that go beyond a 5% nerf.

Emotions are high on the templar side because, even it was unintended, there has been a history of undocumented nerfs to templar skills. All of us who played since beta can recite them. The two that really have stuck with me are the Toppling Charge global cooldown and the Eclipse single target restriction. There was no outcry for such nerfs and yet here they are in the game, both put in without nary an acknowledgement. This is incredibly frustrating. Who ever complained about eclipse being OP?

And then there are the listed nerfs. Nerfs to signature class skills are a big deal and the ones done to Purifying Ritual and Breath of Life seemed to be too casual. I am sure that perception is incorrect and ZoS put a lot of thought into it. But hear me out. Purify and Breath are what make templars templars as opposed to generic magicka DPS who stack spell damage. It's one thing to make a concession to the vocal part of the community who feels there is too much healing in Cyrodiil. It's something entirely different to do so without making any sort of recompense that takes into account the cost of the skill, how it functions, etc. If ZoS wants to argue that purify was never intended to cleanse incoming projectiles, fine, I can see the logic. But whether or not it was intended is irrelevant because purifying meteors was a part of Cyrodiil class balance. Many admitted templar tanking was found wanting even with that "bug" and yet again templars lost something with no compensation. ZoS says purify works now just like cleanse and that's right, it now has the functionality of a generic alliance war skill, one which allies have to actually use a synergy to derive the benefits of. Are we supposed to be excited about that? These are not just irrefutable net losses, but an outright loss of templar distinctiveness.

Also, no other class has had a history of having so many wonky, awkward, cumbersome, and inefficient abilities as templars. I don't know what the metrics are telling ZoS and maybe it's me and the particular people I play with (i.e the entire NA server homed on the pop-locked Azura's Star and more PuG dailies than I'd like), but it is the rare occasion I see any templar use healing ritual, radiant aura, rite of passage, radial sweep, or sunfire. Sun shield is niche. Eclipse is impractical. Every decent DPS ability we have leaves us 100% vulnerable to enemy attack. It's not like these are secrets or simply a corner-case perspective held by hardcore elitists, it's pretty much public knowledge for anyone who hops in just about any teamspeak on a given night. And yet here we are again, another February for class balance, and healing ritual is still a double no-no because of a cast time and no mobility, radiant aura still rendered moot by a common potion, and blazing shield, our signature defensive ability that for most builds is incapable of mitigating a single attack by an enemy player, didn't even get the 1% buff. There is disappointment.

In short, the undocumented nerf to Puncturing Sweep is emblematic of a larger frustration among templars.

******

And it still bothers me because I don't buy the rationale.

On Live my my tooltip damage is around 1000 per sweep so let's use that to be simple. I damage NB for 1000. I heal 400.

Now on PTS, let's say I damage that same NB for 1000. I am healed 350.

That is the default case and that is a nerf.

*****

Your stated rationale only comes into to play if I have the have the focused healing passive. This is no guarantee yet it is being treated like it is a given. It's not.

I can most assuredly tell you that while I would like to always be fighting in my purifying ritual or ehem...remained stationary [!] in my channeled focus...it's not that easy and it doesn't always work out that way. There are many situations where we are taking upwards of 10,000 damage every second when using a global cooldown to essentially "punt" - a skill that does zero damage to the enemy nor impedes them, a skill that does not heal me at that moment and a skill that also will no longer cleanse stuff about to hit me - is not always feasible. Even if I do get that ritual or focus down, what do I do when my opponent moves out of it or in Maelstrom arena when those 7K DPS archers who stand out in the middle of the water, or the Spider boss on stage 6 where I have to move to the totems, or the final boss in Maelstrom where I have to dodge lich crystals, interrupt the boss, chase gold ghosts and prevent the summoners from spawning a colossus? I cannot stay in one spot! ZoS designed this game in such a way where it is now disadvantageous to do so and now Zos is telling me I have to stand in one area or spam these skills every time I move just to avoid this nerf?

That is not a net buff to healing. That is a potential situational buff to healing, a small one at that: I'd be getting 437, let's not pretend this all of a sudden "fixes" what Nifty correctly pointed out - it can't crit, doesn't work on damage shields, subject to battle spirit reduction. And this situation runs counter to ZoS's latest PvE game design and the realities of Cyrodiil combat.

*****

But here is the thing: did ZoS have to put that nerf in? How is it that ZoS went through so much micro-analysis considering the potential addition of the mending passive and not take into account the overall state of the now flimsier templar with its purify "fixed," 25% less healing from breath, and to be confined to within its rune focus? Isn't this missing the forest for the trees? Would it not to have made more sense to say, "Hey, you know templars are losing some of their ability to sustain/mitigate and it's pretty obvious after a year that tanking is already under-powered in cyrodiil. They're probably going to need that mending bonus whenever they can get it so let's compensate those templars who do try to stand their ground with a bit of extra healing from their sweeps and not punish those who attempt to stay mobile."

How is there so much consideration given to reducing the default effectiveness of our most used offensive skill and so little consideration given to increasing the default effectiveness of those many skills so few of us use? It is absolutely mind-blowing that ZoS is so concerned about the melee effectiveness of a class that nobody thinks is overpowered and yet so apathetic to the continuous voices that have told ZoS time and time and time again that healing ritual is bad, we desperately need a blinding flashes type skill back, the sword and shield reflect is miles better than our own skill, and radial sweep and rite of passage are ultimates so uninspiring that we look elsewhere? If ZoS spent half as much time contemplating how to buff our many skills that even other classes say are bad instead of nerfing the few that we do use, templars would be a lot more interesting, diverse, and fun to play.

Slow clap that builds to a roar. You def needed a mic drop gif for that.

gph.is/1LlMMlR

Was trying to get it to embed like that, nice!

Vyle_Byte

@Joy_Division
I sincerely applaud you for the constructive manner in which you are able to relay what a lot of us cannot. It is so easy to get frustrated to the point that we cant even correctly put together a coherent sentence. So, I really do sincerely thank you for being what I consider the Spokesperson for us Templars.

With that said, I also feel as if you say all these things that are so, right and true and yet it falls on deaf ears. Too many times I have seen your well laid out posts, that obviously took tons of time and effort on your part, become dust in the wind. Its like ZOS doesn't want to acknowledge the Templar community, as many others have done the same and yet here we are, facing these same issues with our class.

Honestly, I just wanted to say thank you. I get too emotional to be so constructive so thank you for being a voice of reason. Even if ZOS never acknowledges, many of us appreciate it.

MissBizz

Vyle_Byte wrote: »

@Joy_Division
I sincerely applaud you for the constructive manner in which you are able to relay what a lot of us cannot. It is so easy to get frustrated to the point that we cant even correctly put together a coherent sentence. So, I really do sincerely thank you for being what I consider the Spokesperson for us Templars.

With that said, I also feel as if you say all these things that are so, right and true and yet it falls on deaf ears. Too many times I have seen your well laid out posts, that obviously took tons of time and effort on your part, become dust in the wind. Its like ZOS doesn't want to acknowledge the Templar community, as many others have done the same and yet here we are, facing these same issues with our class.

Honestly, I just wanted to say thank you. I get too emotional to be so constructive so thank you for being a voice of reason. Even if ZOS never acknowledges, many of us appreciate it.

I would also like to extend that thanks. I have been less than reasonable on these forums and elsewhere about these changes, so I'm glad there is someone there that can take our concerns and voice them properly.

AriBoh

Props to @Joy_Division we can only hope that his arguments are actually listened to.
As for acting less than reasonable I make no apologies and ZoS can suck it.

Essiaga

Derra wrote: »

Well - if you take into account that you can now easily get major mending on your sweep heals as a templar i´d say it´s a change you can live with.

Your point is invalid based on using the word 'you' ... it's easy to take away from others and harder to accept when its "you."

Derra

AfkNinja wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Well - if you take into account that you can now easily get major mending on your sweep heals as a templar i´d say it´s a change you can live with.

So... while I am standing still in a very small area, I can briefly get major mending. If I stand still and don't attempt to move out of the way of any attacks coming towards me. As long as I stand still it's all OK?

I would not declare purifying ritual a very small area.

itscompton wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Well - if you take into account that you can now easily get major mending on your sweep heals as a templar i´d say it´s a change you can live with.

Sure let's nerf sorc shields down to nothing and you can live with that. Go troll somewhere else.

Only my personal opinion from playing a templar in pve admittedly. I will prefer 35% heal on sweep with a 25% heal increase over 40% heal without the major mending.

Not when you take Templar to VMA and have to recast ritual or rune constantly while moving around the arena....and then there's PVP which is what most of us are mad about. 1 Gap closer and we are no longer in the ritual...

I was referring to vmsa when i said pve. But i´m admittedly ~50k behind the top templars on my bosmer magica build after 6 runs - so what do i know.

Essiaga wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Well - if you take into account that you one can now easily get major mending on your sweep heals as a templar i´d say it´s a change you one (more specifically I) can live with.

Your point is invalid based on using the word 'you' ... it's easy to take away from others and harder to accept when its "you."

I´ve corrected what i wanted to say - sry i´m not a native speaker/writer:

Well - if you take into account that you one can now easily get major mending on your sweep heals as a templar i´d say it´s a change you one (more specifically I) can live with.

Pomaikai

timidobserver wrote: »

[Quoted content removed]

I definitely agree that this hidden nerf is frustrating, but I wouldn't go that far. She gets paid to relay to us what the combat team tells her. She isn't a programmer, so there is no way for her to go and see exactly what all they have changed. The combat team is the culprit here.

CP5 wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

But with the change to the restorying light passive, doesn't this skill's heal now get a 30% buff for its heal?

No, major mending was nerfed to 25% whereas focused healing was 30%. So actually it is a 10% nerf if you count that along with the puncturing sweep nerf.

Didn't it NOT buff puncturing sweeps heal before since it was an aedric spear skill and that passive only buffed restoring light heals?

You are correct on that.

Internal communications at ZOS is obviously just as stellar as their communications with their paying customers.

Derra

DHale wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Well - if you take into account that you can now easily get major mending on your sweep heals as a templar i´d say it´s a change you can live with.

So... while I am standing still in a very small area, I can briefly get major mending. If I stand still and don't attempt to move out of the way of any attacks coming towards me. As long as I stand still it's all OK?

I would not declare purifying ritual a very small area.

itscompton wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Well - if you take into account that you can now easily get major mending on your sweep heals as a templar i´d say it´s a change you can live with.

Sure let's nerf sorc shields down to nothing and you can live with that. Go troll somewhere else.

Only my personal opinion from playing a templar in pve admittedly. I will prefer 35% heal on sweep with a 25% heal increase over 40% heal without the major mending.

How are you going to get major mending so before you start EVERY sweep you will need a ritual or rune and have to stay in it. As a Templar of over 20 months ( now retired) when I see Templars throw down a ritual or rune I will dodge roll back and move out of it then you will need to come to me then repeat my dodge roll or you can Risk it toppling to me then I will do it again. I am not going to let you get major mending. And without the ritual or rune you won't have it. go ahead test it on pts I double dog dare you. Let me know we can level our dks together.

I´m indeed leveling a magica DK - it´s the only class i don´t have v16. Too many nightblades.

If you allow an ability like purifying ritual to be a spacing ability in a fight you´re basically never going to be able to score a kill against a templar - you have to accept some terms an opponent brings to a fight. It´s much like a sorc mine camping. You can never engage into those mines but you´ll never kill the sorc aswell.
Especially since there is no reason ever for a templar to not cast ritual.

Essiaga

technohic wrote: »

This is the worst thing they have done for the patch because I do not believe they really forgot it in the patch notes. I think they did it intentionally to make it look like buffs for the class while nerfing it. I don't buy the healing increased from passive reasoning because what does that have to do with the cost increase.

This is complete bull and the credibility of ZOS will take a hit from this.

But its not just passive ... its passive activated by another cast of another skill that requires limited movement. Its self CC. If it were just a passive you got for having a skill on your bar then it wouldn't be a big deal. This requires setup and sacrifice to get not be a nerf.

Destruent wrote: »

It does...you can use cleansing ritual to get major mending. So i don't see a problem with it. I already use this skill for PvP and for PvE...doesn't matter, healers will keep me alive.

I like your logic. So templar has BOL so no other class needs self healing. Your dependency on others doesn't justify a nerf to an entire class. Maybe i can hang out with you guys so that the holes in the class can be filled by someone else.

Pure and simply its a nerf to the nerf class. Even if it doesn't effect YOU and your desired play style it does effect others, including potentially those healers that will keep you alive.

AfkNinja

Derra wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Well - if you take into account that you can now easily get major mending on your sweep heals as a templar i´d say it´s a change you can live with.

So... while I am standing still in a very small area, I can briefly get major mending. If I stand still and don't attempt to move out of the way of any attacks coming towards me. As long as I stand still it's all OK?

I would not declare purifying ritual a very small area.

itscompton wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Well - if you take into account that you can now easily get major mending on your sweep heals as a templar i´d say it´s a change you can live with.

Sure let's nerf sorc shields down to nothing and you can live with that. Go troll somewhere else.

Only my personal opinion from playing a templar in pve admittedly. I will prefer 35% heal on sweep with a 25% heal increase over 40% heal without the major mending.

Not when you take Templar to VMA and have to recast ritual or rune constantly while moving around the arena....and then there's PVP which is what most of us are mad about. 1 Gap closer and we are no longer in the ritual...

I was referring to vmsa when i said pve. But i´m admittedly ~50k behind the top templars on my bosmer magica build after 6 runs - so what do i know.

It doesn't bother you at all that Templar's armor rune is the only one in the game that doesn't stick to the user? Really? You desire having to recast rune or ritual every time you move? It doesn't upset you DK gets the exact same Major Mending buff by just using Igneous Shield, which sticks to him?

Do you really not see where we are coming from here? Do you consider yourself a Templar or is the class just casual fun for you? I've always thought of you as a sorc... If Templar was your only class can you say these changes would not bother you? I get that it's a net positive, but it's only a positive when in our rune/ritual. I just flat out don't see the logic in a pitiful 5% healing nerf on Sweeps.

Zinaroth

@Derra So in your opinion we don't deserve an armor buff that sticks to us or what is your actual point here? I thought you were primarely a Sorcerer anyway? Isn't there something else you can discuss here on forums that makes more sense fighting against? Or do you like keeping the Templar class down? Sorry mate we've known each other for some time but I don't see the grand plan of what you're trying to achieve here in this thread other than sowing doubt about whether Templars and in particular Stamina Templars needs some additional buffs or quality of life changes. We don't really need that, seems ZOS themselves have enough doubt about what to do with the Templars.

Docmandu

AOECAPS wrote: »

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

Hi everyone, please remember to keep any criticism civil and constructive. Attacking or bashing others is not acceptable behavior on the forums, and it's important to follow the forum rules. Some posts have been removed.

so we can't say anything about how poorly Templars have been handled the last 2 years?

Ofcourse not.. but feel free to cheat your *ss off on live while streaming to twitch without consequences.. just don't say anything remotely true on the forums, else you get hit with the ban stick!

DHale

Destruent wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

...And Cleansing ritual doesn't proc the 30% healing anymore or what?

If only Rune Focus procs the major mending buff, all the rage is valid, but last I checked, Cleansing Ritual does proc it as well...

It does...you can use cleansing ritual to get major mending. So i don't see a problem with it. I already use this skill for PvP and for PvE...doesn't matter, healers will keep me alive.

A dk can get major mending from casting igneous shield and move around anywhere for 7 seconds I think. They get a shield and Stam too. Now dks have several self heals. Also even if you put out 25 percent more heals while standing in the rune or ritual that is still less than what we have now not including the Bol nerf.

No matter how you slice it a dk with mutagen and igneous shield and molten weapons will now out heal a Templar using purifying ritual, rune focus and mutagen. Someone had to be the worst class I guess.

MikeB

Rune Focus is trash. Who actually puts it on their bar? As a healing templar I would much rather use Siphon (for magicka return) than Rune Focus or nothing at all in PvP. The area is to small to rely on, especially if the Thieves Guild changes go live. I only used Ritual for the mana returns back when I didn't know better.

Cleansing Ritual, while nice, is not an ability you can rely on in PvE so how could you (ZOS) assume it to be feasible in PvP? You would have to be a moron to fight a.Templar standing in Ritual.