Stealth nerf to Puncturing Sweep :(

James-Wayne

AOECAPS wrote: »

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

Hi everyone, please remember to keep any criticism civil and constructive. Attacking or bashing others is not acceptable behavior on the forums, and it's important to follow the forum rules. Some posts have been removed.

so we can't say anything about how poorly Templars have been handled the last 2 years?

I believe your not allowed to bash or attack any forum members, discussing Templars or lack of should be fine. This includes ZOS staff, they have feelings too so look after them.

On behalf of one of our fellow forum posters I apologise Gina, no harm intended... we all love you deep down!

Solariken

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Joy_Division,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. This change was intended, and we apologize for missing the patch note for it. Ultimately, the rationale was that the change to the Focused Healing passive means Puncturing Sweep is now eligible for that healing bonus and will heal for more than compared to Live. So we reduced Puncturing Sweep's healing by 5% to compensate; in the end, it's still a net buff to total healing.

This is depressing. You expect Templars to throw down a Rune or Ritual every time after gap closing to a Sorc or Nightblade? I'm begging you, please focus on building some mobility into the Templar toolset. Forcing players to stay rooted to a tiny area to be effective is a huge mistake and incredibly NOT fun.

Also, why did you increase the cost without increasing the damage? Resources are already really hard to manage on a Templar.

You guys are killing us here.

AOECAPS

James-Wayne wrote: »

AOECAPS wrote: »

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

Hi everyone, please remember to keep any criticism civil and constructive. Attacking or bashing others is not acceptable behavior on the forums, and it's important to follow the forum rules. Some posts have been removed.

so we can't say anything about how poorly Templars have been handled the last 2 years?

I believe your not allowed to bash or attack any forum members, discussing Templars or lack of should be fine. This includes ZOS staff, they have feelings too so look after them.

On behalf of one of our fellow forum posters I apologise Gina, no harm intended... we all love you deep down!

They aren't going to give you crowns for white knighting and Gina isn't going to let you wear the ring of Mara and group with her I didn't attack any of them

Sharkano

I did not realize the change was made, but really noticed healing on the PTS was a lot less from jabs -- just didn't know why. You really "feel" the loss, as this is NOT a 5% reduction, but about a 13% loss in the healing that you received before. So they cut this by 13%, and raise the cost, and then they nerf BOL and claim they are fair to us, the weakest class in the game. What a pathetic joke.

danno8

Solariken wrote: »

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Joy_Division,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. This change was intended, and we apologize for missing the patch note for it. Ultimately, the rationale was that the change to the Focused Healing passive means Puncturing Sweep is now eligible for that healing bonus and will heal for more than compared to Live. So we reduced Puncturing Sweep's healing by 5% to compensate; in the end, it's still a net buff to total healing.

This is depressing. You expect Templars to throw down a Rune or Ritual every time after gap closing to a Sorc or Nightblade? I'm begging you, please focus on building some mobility into the Templar toolset. Forcing players to stay rooted to a tiny area to be effective is a huge mistake and incredibly NOT fun.

Also, why did you increase the cost without increasing the damage? Resources are already really hard to manage on a Templar.

You guys are killing us here.

Skill costs are super high. They really could use a pass.

Like the new Unstable Core. A Templar version of Curse sound great, but then it gets the Templar work-over. Costs more (around 1.5x, in fact it is the same cost as BoL!), and takes several extra seconds to detonate, making it clunky and expensive.

Joy_Division

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Joy_Division,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. This change was intended, and we apologize for missing the patch note for it. Ultimately, the rationale was that the change to the Focused Healing passive means Puncturing Sweep is now eligible for that healing bonus and will heal for more than compared to Live. So we reduced Puncturing Sweep's healing by 5% to compensate; in the end, it's still a net buff to total healing.

@ZOS_KNowak

I appreciate the response. I am going to remain respectful. I don't want this thread closed. I know you folks at ZoS have an impossible job to please all of your customer base with its diverse opinions on what constitutes balance and exciting gameplay. I understand that. But there are reasons I made this topic that go beyond a 5% nerf.

Emotions are high on the templar side because, even it was unintended, there has been a history of undocumented nerfs to templar skills. All of us who played since beta can recite them. The two that really have stuck with me are the Toppling Charge global cooldown and the Eclipse single target restriction. There was no outcry for such nerfs and yet here they are in the game, both put in without nary an acknowledgement. This is incredibly frustrating. Who ever complained about eclipse being OP?

And then there are the listed nerfs. Nerfs to signature class skills are a big deal and the ones done to Purifying Ritual and Breath of Life seemed to be too casual. I am sure that perception is incorrect and ZoS put a lot of thought into it. But hear me out. Purify and Breath are what make templars templars as opposed to generic magicka DPS who stack spell damage. It's one thing to make a concession to the vocal part of the community who feels there is too much healing in Cyrodiil. It's something entirely different to do so without making any sort of recompense that takes into account the cost of the skill, how it functions, etc. If ZoS wants to argue that purify was never intended to cleanse incoming projectiles, fine, I can see the logic. But whether or not it was intended is irrelevant because purifying meteors was a part of Cyrodiil class balance. Many admitted templar tanking was found wanting even with that "bug" and yet again templars lost something with no compensation. ZoS says purify works now just like cleanse and that's right, it now has the functionality of a generic alliance war skill, one which allies have to actually use a synergy to derive the benefits of. Are we supposed to be excited about that? These are not just irrefutable net losses, but an outright loss of templar distinctiveness.

Also, no other class has had a history of having so many wonky, awkward, cumbersome, and inefficient abilities as templars. I don't know what the metrics are telling ZoS and maybe it's me and the particular people I play with (i.e the entire NA server homed on the pop-locked Azura's Star and more PuG dailies than I'd like), but it is the rare occasion I see any templar use healing ritual, radiant aura, rite of passage, radial sweep, or sunfire. Sun shield is niche. Eclipse is impractical. Every decent DPS ability we have leaves us 100% vulnerable to enemy attack. It's not like these are secrets or simply a corner-case perspective held by hardcore elitists, it's pretty much public knowledge for anyone who hops in just about any teamspeak on a given night. And yet here we are again, another February for class balance, and healing ritual is still a double no-no because of a cast time and no mobility, radiant aura still rendered moot by a common potion, and blazing shield, our signature defensive ability that for most builds is incapable of mitigating a single attack by an enemy player, didn't even get the 1% buff. There is disappointment.

In short, the undocumented nerf to Puncturing Sweep is emblematic of a larger frustration among templars.

******

And it still bothers me because I don't buy the rationale.

On Live my my tooltip damage is around 1000 per sweep so let's use that to be simple. I damage NB for 1000. I heal 400.

Now on PTS, let's say I damage that same NB for 1000. I am healed 350.

That is the default case and that is a nerf.

*****

Your stated rationale only comes into to play if I have the have the focused healing passive. This is no guarantee yet it is being treated like it is a given. It's not.

I can most assuredly tell you that while I would like to always be fighting in my purifying ritual or ehem...remained stationary [!] in my channeled focus...it's not that easy and it doesn't always work out that way. There are many situations where we are taking upwards of 10,000 damage every second when using a global cooldown to essentially "punt" - a skill that does zero damage to the enemy nor impedes them, a skill that does not heal me at that moment and a skill that also will no longer cleanse stuff about to hit me - is not always feasible. Even if I do get that ritual or focus down, what do I do when my opponent moves out of it or in Maelstrom arena when those 7K DPS archers who stand out in the middle of the water, or the Spider boss on stage 6 where I have to move to the totems, or the final boss in Maelstrom where I have to dodge lich crystals, interrupt the boss, chase gold ghosts and prevent the summoners from spawning a colossus? I cannot stay in one spot! ZoS designed this game in such a way where it is now disadvantageous to do so and now Zos is telling me I have to stand in one area or spam these skills every time I move just to avoid this nerf?

That is not a net buff to healing. That is a potential situational buff to healing, a small one at that: I'd be getting 437, let's not pretend this all of a sudden "fixes" what Nifty correctly pointed out - it can't crit, doesn't work on damage shields, subject to battle spirit reduction. And this situation runs counter to ZoS's latest PvE game design and the realities of Cyrodiil combat.

*****

But here is the thing: did ZoS have to put that nerf in? How is it that ZoS went through so much micro-analysis considering the potential addition of the mending passive and not take into account the overall state of the now flimsier templar with its purify "fixed," 25% less healing from breath, and to be confined to within its rune focus? Isn't this missing the forest for the trees? Would it not to have made more sense to say, "Hey, you know templars are losing some of their ability to sustain/mitigate and it's pretty obvious after a year that tanking is already under-powered in cyrodiil. They're probably going to need that mending bonus whenever they can get it so let's compensate those templars who do try to stand their ground with a bit of extra healing from their sweeps and not punish those who attempt to stay mobile."

How is there so much consideration given to reducing the default effectiveness of our most used offensive skill and so little consideration given to increasing the default effectiveness of those many skills so few of us use? It is absolutely mind-blowing that ZoS is so concerned about the melee effectiveness of a class that nobody thinks is overpowered and yet so apathetic to the continuous voices that have told ZoS time and time and time again that healing ritual is bad, we desperately need a blinding flashes type skill back, the sword and shield reflect is miles better than our own skill, and radial sweep and rite of passage are ultimates so uninspiring that we look elsewhere? If ZoS spent half as much time contemplating how to buff our many skills that even other classes say are bad instead of nerfing the few that we do use, templars would be a lot more interesting, diverse, and fun to play.

AOECAPS

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Joy_Division,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. This change was intended, and we apologize for missing the patch note for it. Ultimately, the rationale was that the change to the Focused Healing passive means Puncturing Sweep is now eligible for that healing bonus and will heal for more than compared to Live. So we reduced Puncturing Sweep's healing by 5% to compensate; in the end, it's still a net buff to total healing.

@ZOS_KNowak

I appreciate the response. I am going to remain respectful. I don't want this thread closed. I know you folks at ZoS have an impossible job to please all of your customer base with its diverse opinions on what constitutes balance and exciting gameplay. I understand that. But there are reasons I made this topic that go beyond a 5% nerf.

Emotions are high on the templar side because, even it was unintended, there has been a history of undocumented nerfs to templar skills. All of us who played since beta can recite them. The two that really have stuck with me are the Toppling Charge global cooldown and the Eclipse single target restriction. There was no outcry for such nerfs and yet here they are in the game, both put in without nary an acknowledgement. This is incredibly frustrating. Who ever complained about eclipse being OP?

And then there are the listed nerfs. Nerfs to signature class skills are a big deal and the ones done to Purifying Ritual and Breath of Life seemed to be too casual. I am sure that perception in incorrect and ZoS put a lot of thought into it. But hear me out. Purify and Breath are what make templars templars as opposed to generic magicka DPS who stack spell damage. It's one thing to make a concession to the vocal part of the community who feels there is too much healing in Cyrodiil. It's something entirely different to do so without making any sort of recompense that takes into account the cost of the skill, how it functions, etc. If ZoS wants to argue that purify was never intended to cleanse incoming projectiles, fine, I can see the logic. But whether or not it was intended is irrelevant because purifying meteors was a part of Cyrodiil class balance. Many admitted templar tanking was found wanting even with that "bug" and yet again templars lost something with no compensation. ZoS says purify works now just like cleanse and you're right, it now has the functionality of a generic alliance war skill, one which allies have to actually use a synergy to derive the benefits of. Are we supposed to be excited about that? These are not just irrefutable net losses, but an outright loss of templar distinctiveness.

Also, no other class has had a history of having so many wonky, awkward, cumbersome, and inefficient abilities as templars. I don't know what the metrics are telling ZoS and maybe it's me and the particular people I play with (i.e the entire NA server homed on the pop-locked Azura's Star and more PuG dailies than I'd like), but it is the rare occasion I see any templar use healing ritual, radiant aura, rite of passage, radial sweep, or sunfire. Sun shield is niche. Eclipse is impractical. Every decent DPS ability we have leaves us 100% vulnerable to enemy attack. It's not like these are secrets or simply a corner-case perspective held by hardcore elitists, it's pretty much public knowledge for anyone who hops in just about any teamspeak on a given night. And yet here we are again, another February for class balance, and healing ritual is still a double no-no because of a cast time and no mobility, radiant aura still rendered moot by a common potion, and blazing shield, our signature defensive ability that for most builds is incapable of mitigating a single attack by an enemy player, didn't even get the 1% buff. There is disappointment.

In short, the undocumented nerf to Puncturing Sweep is emblematic of a larger frustration among templars.

******

And it still bothers me because I don't buy the rationale.

On Live my my tooltip damage is around 1000 per sweep so let's use that to be simple. I damage NB for 1000. I heal 400.

Now on PTS, let's say I damage that same NB for 1000. I am healed 350.

That is the default case and that is a nerf.

*****

Your stated rationale only comes into to play if I have the have the focused healing passive. This is no guarantee yet it is being treated like it is a given. It's not.

I can most assuredly tell you that while I would like to always be fighting in my purifying ritual or ehem...remained stationary [!] in my channeled focus...it's not that easy and it doesn't always work out that way. There are many situations where we are taking upwards of 10,000 damage every second when using a global cooldown to essentially "punt" - a skill that does zero damage to the enemy nor impedes them, a skill that does not heal me at that moment and a skill that also will no longer cleanse stuff about to hit me - is not always feasible. Even if I do get that ritual or focus down, what do I do when my opponent moves out of it or in Maelstrom arena when those 7K DPS archers who stand out in the middle of the water, or the Spider boss on stage 6 where I have to move to the totems, or the final boss in Maelstrom where I have to dodge lich crystals, interrupt the boss, chase gold ghosts and prevent the summoners from spawning a colossus? I cannot stay in one spot! ZoS designed this game in such a way where it is now disadvantageous to do so and now Zos is telling me I have to stand in one area or spam these skills every time I move just to avoid this nerf?

That is not a net buff to healing. That is a potential situational buff to healing, a small one at that: I'd be getting 437, let's not pretend this all of a sudden "fixes" what Nifty correctly pointed out - it can't crit, doesn't work on damage shields, subject to battle spirit reduction. And this situation runs counter to ZoS's latest PvE game design and the realities of Cyrodiil combat.

*****

But here is the thing: did ZoS have to put that nerf in? How is it that ZoS went through so much micro-analysis considering the potential addition of the mending passive and not take into account the overall state of the now flimsier templar with its purify "fixed," 25% less healing from breath, and to be confined to within its rune focus? Isn't this missing the forest for the trees? Would it not to have made more sense to say, "Hey, you know templars are losing some of their ability to sustain/mitigate and it's pretty obvious after a year that tanking is already under-powered in cyrodiil. They're probably going to need that mending bonus whenever they can get it so let's compensate those templars who do try to stand their ground with a bit of extra healing from their sweeps and not punish those who attempt to stay mobile."

How is there so much consideration given to reducing the default effectiveness of our most used offensive skill and so little consideration given to increasing the default effectiveness of those many skills so few of us use? It is absolutely mind-blowing that ZoS is so concerned about the melee effectiveness of a class that nobody thinks is overpowered and yet so apathetic to the continuous voices that have told ZoS time and time and time again that healing ritual is bad, we desperately need a blinding flashes type skill back, the sword and shield reflect is miles better than our own skill, and radial sweep and rite of passage are ultimates so uninspiring that we look elsewhere? If ZoS spent half as much time contemplating how to buff our many skills that even other classes say are bad instead of nerfing the few that we do use, templars would be a lot more interesting, diverse, and fun to play.

Well said agree 100% to bad we won't get a real answer from Zos instead of double speak or talking to us like we cant understand how great an idea it is to have to sit in a 3x2 rune focus and that it makes Templars OP lol.

itscompton

CP5 wrote: »

But with the change to the restorying light passive, doesn't this skill's heal now get a 30% buff for its heal?

Sure you might get that buff but that means spending time and magica to keep up a circle you have to make sure you stay in while you're in the middle of fighting someone. Considering that I'd still call it a nerf even with the change to the passive.

Epona222

itscompton wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

But with the change to the restorying light passive, doesn't this skill's heal now get a 30% buff for its heal?

Sure you might get that buff but that means spending time and magica to keep up a circle you have to make sure you stay in while you're in the middle of fighting someone. Considering that I'd still call it a nerf even with the change to the passive.

Exactly, it's a buff for a very small number of situations - in fact, barely any situation. The other 99% of the time when you do not want (or it is not expedient) to stand in that exact spot, it's a nerf.

itscompton

Reevster wrote: »

It is a tad OPed, I mean you really never need to heal while attacking with this skill....I have a vr 16 Templar, losing 5 percent isn't going to hurt much if at all . But then again I would sooner keep the 40 percent...

I've come out on top of a lot of fights in PVP with just a tiny bit of health left, fights I might now lose because of this change.

Essiaga

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Joy_Division,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. This change was intended, and we apologize for missing the patch note for it. Ultimately, the rationale was that the change to the Focused Healing passive means Puncturing Sweep is now eligible for that healing bonus and will heal for more than compared to Live. So we reduced Puncturing Sweep's healing by 5% to compensate; in the end, it's still a net buff to total healing.

I call bullsh*t ...

This puts the dependence on us having the buff up. It requires 2 casts in order to get a net buff which is typically impractical.

Now we need to activate and maintain skills to not notice the obvious nerf to this ability. Fix this and be honest with your selves and us.

itscompton

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Joy_Division,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. This change was intended, and we apologize for missing the patch note for it. Ultimately, the rationale was that the change to the Focused Healing passive means Puncturing Sweep is now eligible for that healing bonus and will heal for more than compared to Live. So we reduced Puncturing Sweep's healing by 5% to compensate; in the end, it's still a net buff to total healing.

But now you're forcing us to spend valuable resources and time to cast a support spell in the middle of PVP fights that call for split second reactions to stay alive. Templars already have some of the worst regen and now you want to make me spend magica in the middle of a fight to get back the healing I had before? That's crazy! A buff is something that improves a skill, making us cast another skill to make up for nerfing Sweeps doesn't really count as a buff in our eyes. As said before, just give us a straight buff without taking something else away. The idea was to make Templars more competitive in PvP and matching every buff with an equal nerf just keeps us at the bottom of the pack.

itscompton

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Joy_Division,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. This change was intended, and we apologize for missing the patch note for it. Ultimately, the rationale was that the change to the Focused Healing passive means Puncturing Sweep is now eligible for that healing bonus and will heal for more than compared to Live. So we reduced Puncturing Sweep's healing by 5% to compensate; in the end, it's still a net buff to total healing.

Smh....play as you want is getting harder and harder due to ZOS intended nerfs

Lol, play as you want....as long as you stand in this little circle while you do.

Essiaga

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Joy_Division,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. This change was intended, and we apologize for missing the patch note for it. Ultimately, the rationale was that the change to the Focused Healing passive means Puncturing Sweep is now eligible for that healing bonus and will heal for more than compared to Live. So we reduced Puncturing Sweep's healing by 5% to compensate; in the end, it's still a net buff to total healing.

Can we get an actual discussion of the templar class with a member of the team that is responsible to implementing these changes? These patch notes are joke. The things done are mostly nonsensical and frankly ZOS should be embarrassed to put this out there and claim it as the balance patch we've been waiting for the past year.

itscompton

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Joy_Division,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. This change was intended, and we apologize for missing the patch note for it. Ultimately, the rationale was that the change to the Focused Healing passive means Puncturing Sweep is now eligible for that healing bonus and will heal for more than compared to Live. So we reduced Puncturing Sweep's healing by 5% to compensate; in the end, it's still a net buff to total healing.

@ZOS_KNowak

I appreciate the response. I am going to remain respectful. I don't want this thread closed. I know you folks at ZoS have an impossible job to please all of your customer base with its diverse opinions on what constitutes balance and exciting gameplay. I understand that. But there are reasons I made this topic that go beyond a 5% nerf.

Emotions are high on the templar side because, even it was unintended, there has been a history of undocumented nerfs to templar skills. All of us who played since beta can recite them. The two that really have stuck with me are the Toppling Charge global cooldown and the Eclipse single target restriction. There was no outcry for such nerfs and yet here they are in the game, both put in without nary an acknowledgement. This is incredibly frustrating. Who ever complained about eclipse being OP?

And then there are the listed nerfs. Nerfs to signature class skills are a big deal and the ones done to Purifying Ritual and Breath of Life seemed to be too casual. I am sure that perception is incorrect and ZoS put a lot of thought into it. But hear me out. Purify and Breath are what make templars templars as opposed to generic magicka DPS who stack spell damage. It's one thing to make a concession to the vocal part of the community who feels there is too much healing in Cyrodiil. It's something entirely different to do so without making any sort of recompense that takes into account the cost of the skill, how it functions, etc. If ZoS wants to argue that purify was never intended to cleanse incoming projectiles, fine, I can see the logic. But whether or not it was intended is irrelevant because purifying meteors was a part of Cyrodiil class balance. Many admitted templar tanking was found wanting even with that "bug" and yet again templars lost something with no compensation. ZoS says purify works now just like cleanse and that's right, it now has the functionality of a generic alliance war skill, one which allies have to actually use a synergy to derive the benefits of. Are we supposed to be excited about that? These are not just irrefutable net losses, but an outright loss of templar distinctiveness.

Also, no other class has had a history of having so many wonky, awkward, cumbersome, and inefficient abilities as templars. I don't know what the metrics are telling ZoS and maybe it's me and the particular people I play with (i.e the entire NA server homed on the pop-locked Azura's Star and more PuG dailies than I'd like), but it is the rare occasion I see any templar use healing ritual, radiant aura, rite of passage, radial sweep, or sunfire. Sun shield is niche. Eclipse is impractical. Every decent DPS ability we have leaves us 100% vulnerable to enemy attack. It's not like these are secrets or simply a corner-case perspective held by hardcore elitists, it's pretty much public knowledge for anyone who hops in just about any teamspeak on a given night. And yet here we are again, another February for class balance, and healing ritual is still a double no-no because of a cast time and no mobility, radiant aura still rendered moot by a common potion, and blazing shield, our signature defensive ability that for most builds is incapable of mitigating a single attack by an enemy player, didn't even get the 1% buff. There is disappointment.

In short, the undocumented nerf to Puncturing Sweep is emblematic of a larger frustration among templars.

******

And it still bothers me because I don't buy the rationale.

On Live my my tooltip damage is around 1000 per sweep so let's use that to be simple. I damage NB for 1000. I heal 400.

Now on PTS, let's say I damage that same NB for 1000. I am healed 350.

That is the default case and that is a nerf.

*****

Your stated rationale only comes into to play if I have the have the focused healing passive. This is no guarantee yet it is being treated like it is a given. It's not.

I can most assuredly tell you that while I would like to always be fighting in my purifying ritual or ehem...remained stationary [!] in my channeled focus...it's not that easy and it doesn't always work out that way. There are many situations where we are taking upwards of 10,000 damage every second when using a global cooldown to essentially "punt" - a skill that does zero damage to the enemy nor impedes them, a skill that does not heal me at that moment and a skill that also will no longer cleanse stuff about to hit me - is not always feasible. Even if I do get that ritual or focus down, what do I do when my opponent moves out of it or in Maelstrom arena when those 7K DPS archers who stand out in the middle of the water, or the Spider boss on stage 6 where I have to move to the totems, or the final boss in Maelstrom where I have to dodge lich crystals, interrupt the boss, chase gold ghosts and prevent the summoners from spawning a colossus? I cannot stay in one spot! ZoS designed this game in such a way where it is now disadvantageous to do so and now Zos is telling me I have to stand in one area or spam these skills every time I move just to avoid this nerf?

That is not a net buff to healing. That is a potential situational buff to healing, a small one at that: I'd be getting 437, let's not pretend this all of a sudden "fixes" what Nifty correctly pointed out - it can't crit, doesn't work on damage shields, subject to battle spirit reduction. And this situation runs counter to ZoS's latest PvE game design and the realities of Cyrodiil combat.

*****

But here is the thing: did ZoS have to put that nerf in? How is it that ZoS went through so much micro-analysis considering the potential addition of the mending passive and not take into account the overall state of the now flimsier templar with its purify "fixed," 25% less healing from breath, and to be confined to within its rune focus? Isn't this missing the forest for the trees? Would it not to have made more sense to say, "Hey, you know templars are losing some of their ability to sustain/mitigate and it's pretty obvious after a year that tanking is already under-powered in cyrodiil. They're probably going to need that mending bonus whenever they can get it so let's compensate those templars who do try to stand their ground with a bit of extra healing from their sweeps and not punish those who attempt to stay mobile."

How is there so much consideration given to reducing the default effectiveness of our most used offensive skill and so little consideration given to increasing the default effectiveness of those many skills so few of us use? It is absolutely mind-blowing that ZoS is so concerned about the melee effectiveness of a class that nobody thinks is overpowered and yet so apathetic to the continuous voices that have told ZoS time and time and time again that healing ritual is bad, we desperately need a blinding flashes type skill back, the sword and shield reflect is miles better than our own skill, and radial sweep and rite of passage are ultimates so uninspiring that we look elsewhere? If ZoS spent half as much time contemplating how to buff our many skills that even other classes say are bad instead of nerfing the few that we do use, templars would be a lot more interesting, diverse, and fun to play.

Man that calls for a mic drop, nailed it.

DHale

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Joy_Division,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. This change was intended, and we apologize for missing the patch note for it. Ultimately, the rationale was that the change to the Focused Healing passive means Puncturing Sweep is now eligible for that healing bonus and will heal for more than compared to Live. So we reduced Puncturing Sweep's healing by 5% to compensate; in the end, it's still a net buff to total healing.

This is not accurate it would only be a healing buff if I or other Templars were to throw down a rune or ritual before we started our sweeps. Then we could not move around if the target moves we would have to recast the rune or ritual. Again this is unrealistic in virtually all but a very limited number of situations. Also it is far more important to cast entropy or other buffs rather than rune or ritual that won't keep you alive from even one player using wrecking blow. I realize you are just conveying information to us but it is a nerf from any realistic perspective. Please convey this to whoever gave you this information. Thank you.

Frenkthevile

Jura23 wrote: »

YEAH NERF ME MORE!!!
So i can quit this for BDO with no remorse, go find another healer next time , gl bye!

Frenkthevile

Vyle_Byte wrote: »

What the actual *** ZOS?

Is it EVER going to be enough? I mean, sincerely, more and more it feels like you just wanna do away with this class. Us templars have been through more nerfs than ANY other class for the past 2 years. And the idiotic thing is, we were NEVER the FOTM. Its not like we are so OP that you have to come in to balance us. You said you were going to BUFF. Yet nerf after nerf after nerf.

You are so infuriating. STOP touching the one thing we had going for us, our heals. Give it back. Give back that 5%, its not set in stone, please stop doing this to us!

And bad form, I must say. Being sneaky like that. Bad form.

[Edited to remove auto-censor bybass]

Frenkthevile

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

Hi everyone, please remember to keep any criticism civil and constructive. Attacking or bashing others is not acceptable behavior on the forums, and it's important to follow the forum rules. Some posts have been removed.

Only if you devs stop Bashing Templars!

Cinbri

Same what happened with HtD in IC: buffed and nerfed simultaneously.

Derra

Well - if you take into account that you can now easily get major mending on your sweep heals as a templar i´d say it´s a change you can live with.

Cinbri

Derra wrote: »

Well - if you take into account that you can now easily get major mending on your sweep heals as a templar i´d say it´s a change you can live with.

Yes, but seems ZOS still have using weird ideology regarding templars - if something was buffed, same thing should be nerfed somewhere else.

Epona222

Derra wrote: »

Well - if you take into account that you can now easily get major mending on your sweep heals as a templar i´d say it´s a change you can live with.

So... while I am standing still in a very small area, I can briefly get major mending. If I stand still and don't attempt to move out of the way of any attacks coming towards me. As long as I stand still it's all OK?

Zinaroth

Derra wrote: »

Well - if you take into account that you can now easily get major mending on your sweep heals as a templar i´d say it´s a change you can live with.

Derra please...
You honestly think we should recast Rune every time we move 5 meters to make up for this nerf?
Rune should just be a self buff, if that was the case then this change would make sense, period!

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Joy_Division,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. This change was intended, and we apologize for missing the patch note for it. Ultimately, the rationale was that the change to the Focused Healing passive means Puncturing Sweep is now eligible for that healing bonus and will heal for more than compared to Live. So we reduced Puncturing Sweep's healing by 5% to compensate; in the end, it's still a net buff to total healing.

I can understand the rationality behind that, but then make the Rune Focus a true self buff instead of a ground targeted effect. You can buff Rune Focus all you want but aslong as it isn't a true self buff like the other armor buffs the other classes have, it isn't viable in competetive PvE and PvP.

We are the only class without movement tools or major spell/weapon power buffs now. Don't encumber us further by having to stand inside a rune to keep our armor buffs or having to weapon swap and rebuff every 6-7 seconds (2-3 if you want Major Mending up)!

If you really are interested in getting Templars up to scratch and in particular Stamina Templars please do check out the extensive topic I made here:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2665506#Comment_2665506

Thank you!

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Joy_Division,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. This change was intended, and we apologize for missing the patch note for it. Ultimately, the rationale was that the change to the Focused Healing passive means Puncturing Sweep is now eligible for that healing bonus and will heal for more than compared to Live. So we reduced Puncturing Sweep's healing by 5% to compensate; in the end, it's still a net buff to total healing.

@ZOS_KNowak

I appreciate the response. I am going to remain respectful. I don't want this thread closed. I know you folks at ZoS have an impossible job to please all of your customer base with its diverse opinions on what constitutes balance and exciting gameplay. I understand that. But there are reasons I made this topic that go beyond a 5% nerf.

Emotions are high on the templar side because, even it was unintended, there has been a history of undocumented nerfs to templar skills. All of us who played since beta can recite them. The two that really have stuck with me are the Toppling Charge global cooldown and the Eclipse single target restriction. There was no outcry for such nerfs and yet here they are in the game, both put in without nary an acknowledgement. This is incredibly frustrating. Who ever complained about eclipse being OP?

And then there are the listed nerfs. Nerfs to signature class skills are a big deal and the ones done to Purifying Ritual and Breath of Life seemed to be too casual. I am sure that perception is incorrect and ZoS put a lot of thought into it. But hear me out. Purify and Breath are what make templars templars as opposed to generic magicka DPS who stack spell damage. It's one thing to make a concession to the vocal part of the community who feels there is too much healing in Cyrodiil. It's something entirely different to do so without making any sort of recompense that takes into account the cost of the skill, how it functions, etc. If ZoS wants to argue that purify was never intended to cleanse incoming projectiles, fine, I can see the logic. But whether or not it was intended is irrelevant because purifying meteors was a part of Cyrodiil class balance. Many admitted templar tanking was found wanting even with that "bug" and yet again templars lost something with no compensation. ZoS says purify works now just like cleanse and that's right, it now has the functionality of a generic alliance war skill, one which allies have to actually use a synergy to derive the benefits of. Are we supposed to be excited about that? These are not just irrefutable net losses, but an outright loss of templar distinctiveness.

Also, no other class has had a history of having so many wonky, awkward, cumbersome, and inefficient abilities as templars. I don't know what the metrics are telling ZoS and maybe it's me and the particular people I play with (i.e the entire NA server homed on the pop-locked Azura's Star and more PuG dailies than I'd like), but it is the rare occasion I see any templar use healing ritual, radiant aura, rite of passage, radial sweep, or sunfire. Sun shield is niche. Eclipse is impractical. Every decent DPS ability we have leaves us 100% vulnerable to enemy attack. It's not like these are secrets or simply a corner-case perspective held by hardcore elitists, it's pretty much public knowledge for anyone who hops in just about any teamspeak on a given night. And yet here we are again, another February for class balance, and healing ritual is still a double no-no because of a cast time and no mobility, radiant aura still rendered moot by a common potion, and blazing shield, our signature defensive ability that for most builds is incapable of mitigating a single attack by an enemy player, didn't even get the 1% buff. There is disappointment.

In short, the undocumented nerf to Puncturing Sweep is emblematic of a larger frustration among templars.

******

And it still bothers me because I don't buy the rationale.

On Live my my tooltip damage is around 1000 per sweep so let's use that to be simple. I damage NB for 1000. I heal 400.

Now on PTS, let's say I damage that same NB for 1000. I am healed 350.

That is the default case and that is a nerf.

*****

Your stated rationale only comes into to play if I have the have the focused healing passive. This is no guarantee yet it is being treated like it is a given. It's not.

I can most assuredly tell you that while I would like to always be fighting in my purifying ritual or ehem...remained stationary [!] in my channeled focus...it's not that easy and it doesn't always work out that way. There are many situations where we are taking upwards of 10,000 damage every second when using a global cooldown to essentially "punt" - a skill that does zero damage to the enemy nor impedes them, a skill that does not heal me at that moment and a skill that also will no longer cleanse stuff about to hit me - is not always feasible. Even if I do get that ritual or focus down, what do I do when my opponent moves out of it or in Maelstrom arena when those 7K DPS archers who stand out in the middle of the water, or the Spider boss on stage 6 where I have to move to the totems, or the final boss in Maelstrom where I have to dodge lich crystals, interrupt the boss, chase gold ghosts and prevent the summoners from spawning a colossus? I cannot stay in one spot! ZoS designed this game in such a way where it is now disadvantageous to do so and now Zos is telling me I have to stand in one area or spam these skills every time I move just to avoid this nerf?

That is not a net buff to healing. That is a potential situational buff to healing, a small one at that: I'd be getting 437, let's not pretend this all of a sudden "fixes" what Nifty correctly pointed out - it can't crit, doesn't work on damage shields, subject to battle spirit reduction. And this situation runs counter to ZoS's latest PvE game design and the realities of Cyrodiil combat.

*****

But here is the thing: did ZoS have to put that nerf in? How is it that ZoS went through so much micro-analysis considering the potential addition of the mending passive and not take into account the overall state of the now flimsier templar with its purify "fixed," 25% less healing from breath, and to be confined to within its rune focus? Isn't this missing the forest for the trees? Would it not to have made more sense to say, "Hey, you know templars are losing some of their ability to sustain/mitigate and it's pretty obvious after a year that tanking is already under-powered in cyrodiil. They're probably going to need that mending bonus whenever they can get it so let's compensate those templars who do try to stand their ground with a bit of extra healing from their sweeps and not punish those who attempt to stay mobile."

How is there so much consideration given to reducing the default effectiveness of our most used offensive skill and so little consideration given to increasing the default effectiveness of those many skills so few of us use? It is absolutely mind-blowing that ZoS is so concerned about the melee effectiveness of a class that nobody thinks is overpowered and yet so apathetic to the continuous voices that have told ZoS time and time and time again that healing ritual is bad, we desperately need a blinding flashes type skill back, the sword and shield reflect is miles better than our own skill, and radial sweep and rite of passage are ultimates so uninspiring that we look elsewhere? If ZoS spent half as much time contemplating how to buff our many skills that even other classes say are bad instead of nerfing the few that we do use, templars would be a lot more interesting, diverse, and fun to play.

Thank you for putting this into words, I really am getting tired of writing long replies because I expect they don't even read them. My latest thread on Stamina Templars is getting no recognition and that took me three hours to compile, I am about spend trying to reason with these developers and community managers, I feel like I would have more success talking to a door...

So kudos to you for putting in the effort and voicing what we all feel!

Mumyo

DID THEY INCREASE THE COSTS? can someone check that out pls?
If thats the case.... DUUUUUUUUUUDE!

Maybe lower the cost of surprise attack xD and give it a heal too since it allready gives defense and attack bonuses.
I DONT GET THIS.

Lettigall

@Zinaroth Devs ignored feedback from whole year, are you really surprised that they ignored yours?

BTW you did a very good job, your thread is awesome!

Asmael

...And Cleansing ritual doesn't proc the 30% healing anymore or what?

If only Rune Focus procs the major mending buff, all the rage is valid, but last I checked, Cleansing Ritual does proc it as well...

technohic

This is the worst thing they have done for the patch because I do not believe they really forgot it in the patch notes. I think they did it intentionally to make it look like buffs for the class while nerfing it. I don't buy the healing increased from passive reasoning because what does that have to do with the cost increase.

This is complete bull and the credibility of ZOS will take a hit from this.

NewBlacksmurf

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_KNowak wrote: »

Joy_Division,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. This change was intended, and we apologize for missing the patch note for it. Ultimately, the rationale was that the change to the Focused Healing passive means Puncturing Sweep is now eligible for that healing bonus and will heal for more than compared to Live. So we reduced Puncturing Sweep's healing by 5% to compensate; in the end, it's still a net buff to total healing.

@ZOS_KNowak

I appreciate the response. I am going to remain respectful. I don't want this thread closed. I know you folks at ZoS have an impossible job to please all of your customer base with its diverse opinions on what constitutes balance and exciting gameplay. I understand that. But there are reasons I made this topic that go beyond a 5% nerf.

Emotions are high on the templar side because, even it was unintended, there has been a history of undocumented nerfs to templar skills. All of us who played since beta can recite them. The two that really have stuck with me are the Toppling Charge global cooldown and the Eclipse single target restriction. There was no outcry for such nerfs and yet here they are in the game, both put in without nary an acknowledgement. This is incredibly frustrating. Who ever complained about eclipse being OP?

And then there are the listed nerfs. Nerfs to signature class skills are a big deal and the ones done to Purifying Ritual and Breath of Life seemed to be too casual. I am sure that perception is incorrect and ZoS put a lot of thought into it. But hear me out. Purify and Breath are what make templars templars as opposed to generic magicka DPS who stack spell damage. It's one thing to make a concession to the vocal part of the community who feels there is too much healing in Cyrodiil. It's something entirely different to do so without making any sort of recompense that takes into account the cost of the skill, how it functions, etc. If ZoS wants to argue that purify was never intended to cleanse incoming projectiles, fine, I can see the logic. But whether or not it was intended is irrelevant because purifying meteors was a part of Cyrodiil class balance. Many admitted templar tanking was found wanting even with that "bug" and yet again templars lost something with no compensation. ZoS says purify works now just like cleanse and that's right, it now has the functionality of a generic alliance war skill, one which allies have to actually use a synergy to derive the benefits of. Are we supposed to be excited about that? These are not just irrefutable net losses, but an outright loss of templar distinctiveness.

Also, no other class has had a history of having so many wonky, awkward, cumbersome, and inefficient abilities as templars. I don't know what the metrics are telling ZoS and maybe it's me and the particular people I play with (i.e the entire NA server homed on the pop-locked Azura's Star and more PuG dailies than I'd like), but it is the rare occasion I see any templar use healing ritual, radiant aura, rite of passage, radial sweep, or sunfire. Sun shield is niche. Eclipse is impractical. Every decent DPS ability we have leaves us 100% vulnerable to enemy attack. It's not like these are secrets or simply a corner-case perspective held by hardcore elitists, it's pretty much public knowledge for anyone who hops in just about any teamspeak on a given night. And yet here we are again, another February for class balance, and healing ritual is still a double no-no because of a cast time and no mobility, radiant aura still rendered moot by a common potion, and blazing shield, our signature defensive ability that for most builds is incapable of mitigating a single attack by an enemy player, didn't even get the 1% buff. There is disappointment.

In short, the undocumented nerf to Puncturing Sweep is emblematic of a larger frustration among templars.

******

And it still bothers me because I don't buy the rationale.

On Live my my tooltip damage is around 1000 per sweep so let's use that to be simple. I damage NB for 1000. I heal 400.

Now on PTS, let's say I damage that same NB for 1000. I am healed 350.

That is the default case and that is a nerf.

*****

Your stated rationale only comes into to play if I have the have the focused healing passive. This is no guarantee yet it is being treated like it is a given. It's not.

I can most assuredly tell you that while I would like to always be fighting in my purifying ritual or ehem...remained stationary [!] in my channeled focus...it's not that easy and it doesn't always work out that way. There are many situations where we are taking upwards of 10,000 damage every second when using a global cooldown to essentially "punt" - a skill that does zero damage to the enemy nor impedes them, a skill that does not heal me at that moment and a skill that also will no longer cleanse stuff about to hit me - is not always feasible. Even if I do get that ritual or focus down, what do I do when my opponent moves out of it or in Maelstrom arena when those 7K DPS archers who stand out in the middle of the water, or the Spider boss on stage 6 where I have to move to the totems, or the final boss in Maelstrom where I have to dodge lich crystals, interrupt the boss, chase gold ghosts and prevent the summoners from spawning a colossus? I cannot stay in one spot! ZoS designed this game in such a way where it is now disadvantageous to do so and now Zos is telling me I have to stand in one area or spam these skills every time I move just to avoid this nerf?

That is not a net buff to healing. That is a potential situational buff to healing, a small one at that: I'd be getting 437, let's not pretend this all of a sudden "fixes" what Nifty correctly pointed out - it can't crit, doesn't work on damage shields, subject to battle spirit reduction. And this situation runs counter to ZoS's latest PvE game design and the realities of Cyrodiil combat.

*****

But here is the thing: did ZoS have to put that nerf in? How is it that ZoS went through so much micro-analysis considering the potential addition of the mending passive and not take into account the overall state of the now flimsier templar with its purify "fixed," 25% less healing from breath, and to be confined to within its rune focus? Isn't this missing the forest for the trees? Would it not to have made more sense to say, "Hey, you know templars are losing some of their ability to sustain/mitigate and it's pretty obvious after a year that tanking is already under-powered in cyrodiil. They're probably going to need that mending bonus whenever they can get it so let's compensate those templars who do try to stand their ground with a bit of extra healing from their sweeps and not punish those who attempt to stay mobile."

How is there so much consideration given to reducing the default effectiveness of our most used offensive skill and so little consideration given to increasing the default effectiveness of those many skills so few of us use? It is absolutely mind-blowing that ZoS is so concerned about the melee effectiveness of a class that nobody thinks is overpowered and yet so apathetic to the continuous voices that have told ZoS time and time and time again that healing ritual is bad, we desperately need a blinding flashes type skill back, the sword and shield reflect is miles better than our own skill, and radial sweep and rite of passage are ultimates so uninspiring that we look elsewhere? If ZoS spent half as much time contemplating how to buff our many skills that even other classes say are bad instead of nerfing the few that we do use, templars would be a lot more interesting, diverse, and fun to play.

Applause

Destruent

Asmael wrote: »

...And Cleansing ritual doesn't proc the 30% healing anymore or what?

If only Rune Focus procs the major mending buff, all the rage is valid, but last I checked, Cleansing Ritual does proc it as well...

It does...you can use cleansing ritual to get major mending. So i don't see a problem with it. I already use this skill for PvP and for PvE...doesn't matter, healers will keep me alive.