Take Back Trueflame

God_flakes · February 2016

Crown wrote: »

@God_flakes Next patch AP gains will be DOUBLED for groups up to six players.

See here for details: https://goo.gl/iQ3AwS

IMO this is stupid. Why not make eso co-op then? This is NOT how this game was advertised and marketed. I started this game and paid for it for 18 months to play an MMO with "large scale warfare"...not small group, small scale bs. Zos is only doing this to shush the cry babies. And I admit I once cry babied, but it was not over zerging, my beef has always been with those who knowingly and deliberately stress the server. Not those who run 20-60 deep because they want to smash the enemy.

Takllin · February 2016

Minno wrote: »

show previous quotes

Crown wrote: »

@God_flakes Next patch AP gains will be DOUBLED for groups up to six players.

See here for details: https://goo.gl/iQ3AwS

Correct.

Also should be noted:
- no objectives aside from resources to provide small man focus.
- emp is currently only AP based system forcing a map push. Requires large raids to succeed.

Therefore, in conclusion, nothing exists for players to focus on small group combat.

That's a bit disingenuous, don't ya think?

Small groups can battle over anything, but the population caps and large groups that people run in make it harder.

Manoekin · February 2016

Takllin wrote: »

show previous quotes

Minno wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

@God_flakes Next patch AP gains will be DOUBLED for groups up to six players.

See here for details: https://goo.gl/iQ3AwS

Correct.

Also should be noted:
- no objectives aside from resources to provide small man focus.
- emp is currently only AP based system forcing a map push. Requires large raids to succeed.

Therefore, in conclusion, nothing exists for players to focus on small group combat.

That's a bit disingenuous, don't ya think?

Small groups can battle over anything, but the population caps and large groups that people run in make it harder.

This.

_Chaos · February 2016

Minno wrote: »

show previous quotes

Crown wrote: »

@God_flakes Next patch AP gains will be DOUBLED for groups up to six players.

See here for details: https://goo.gl/iQ3AwS

Correct.

Also should be noted:
- no objectives aside from resources to provide small man focus.
- emp is currently only AP based system forcing a map push. Requires large raids to succeed.

Therefore, in conclusion, nothing exists for players to focus on small group combat.

Nope, but now we can split our 24 man raids into 4 stacked groups for maximum AP... hooray?

God_flakes · February 2016

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

Minno wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

@God_flakes Next patch AP gains will be DOUBLED for groups up to six players.

See here for details: https://goo.gl/iQ3AwS

Correct.

Also should be noted:
- no objectives aside from resources to provide small man focus.
- emp is currently only AP based system forcing a map push. Requires large raids to succeed.

Therefore, in conclusion, nothing exists for players to focus on small group combat.

Nope, but now we can split our 24 man raids into 4 stacked groups for maximum AP... hooray?

Right? Stupid. This is another zos bandaid and nothing more. All I see coming from this is chaos.

_Chaos · February 2016

Chaos coming isn't always a bad thing

srsly though, much disappointment and little optimism for the next patch. They better at least improve performance or this community is going to take a serious hit.

Gonna be small scaling on TF between 5-8 EST hit me up for cheap ERP ppl

God_flakes · February 2016

Yeah. I don't think it's ever a good thing for a company to backtrack on their promises and scale back on gameplay because THEY can't fix their server issues.

Minno · February 2016

Takllin wrote: »

show previous quotes

Minno wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

@God_flakes Next patch AP gains will be DOUBLED for groups up to six players.

See here for details: https://goo.gl/iQ3AwS

Correct.

Also should be noted:
- no objectives aside from resources to provide small man focus.
- emp is currently only AP based system forcing a map push. Requires large raids to succeed.

Therefore, in conclusion, nothing exists for players to focus on small group combat.

That's a bit disingenuous, don't ya think?

Small groups can battle over anything, but the population caps and large groups that people run in make it harder.

Sure, its open world to move as you please.

But can't escape the fact EMP pushes promote 90% of all map movements and, besides loose pvp award items costing AP, there is no other reason to gather this currency.

Only way to competively play for emp is to go where the players go. And those players are also trying to earn AP to earn EMP spots while moving to claim emp for their faction.

There is no reason for small group to exist, objective-wise. Yes they can battle whomever as long as the players don't outnumber them drastically or take a resource. But without a viable objective based on small team combat, this style of gameplay will have zero impact on the faction score leaving many to use this as an argument for why the game should only be large raid format.

IC is the closest, but it doesn't factor into campaign scores nor have viable capture points to make it worth while (not to mention ability to still gather 24 man raids to disrupt the balance.)

RinaldoGandolphi · February 2016

When you look at the small scale vs large scale thing, it comes down to this:

1. In larger groups, the more people you have, the less individual skill matters...HOWEVER large zergs only succeed and rely solely on a GOOD RAID LEAD, with very specific builds that are usless outside of a group setting. without that good raid lead, the large zergs are not successful. A good raid lead and large numbers are both required to be successful in capturing large objectives.

2. In small scale 6-10 man groups, EACH member must be able to stay alive or survive on his/her own, being a good raid leader is less important as you are either tackling much smaller objectives, or are fighting small scale skirmishes that don't have objectives, your only goals are positioning, tactics, getting kills, playing smart, and staying alive. Since your not tackling big objectives, having a good raid leader is less important, being a solid player and know your class and having a build focused on keeping you alive is of more importance.

When it comes to large vs small groups, in large groups whats not needed in individual skill, that burden is then shifted to the raid leader who must be smart and know what he is doing to succeed. Neither of these styles need to be belitting the other, or fighting about whose better, or what style is better, or any of that.

At the end of the day both sides can make a difference.

Im just not big on siding against one or the other. the skill required is just shifted to different areas depending on the group size. Both parts are skillful gameplay, just in different areas.

Takllin · February 2016

Minno wrote: »

show previous quotes

Takllin wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

@God_flakes Next patch AP gains will be DOUBLED for groups up to six players.

See here for details: https://goo.gl/iQ3AwS

Correct.

Also should be noted:
- no objectives aside from resources to provide small man focus.
- emp is currently only AP based system forcing a map push. Requires large raids to succeed.

Therefore, in conclusion, nothing exists for players to focus on small group combat.

That's a bit disingenuous, don't ya think?

Small groups can battle over anything, but the population caps and large groups that people run in make it harder.

Sure, its open world to move as you please.

But can't escape the fact EMP pushes promote 90% of all map movements and, besides loose pvp award items costing AP, there is no other reason to gather this currency.

Only way to competively play for emp is to go where the players go. And those players are also trying to earn AP to earn EMP spots while moving to claim emp for their faction.

There is no reason for small group to exist, objective-wise. Yes they can battle whomever as long as the players don't outnumber them drastically or take a resource. But without a viable objective based on small team combat, this style of gameplay will have zero impact on the faction score leaving many to use this as an argument for why the game should only be large raid format.

IC is the closest, but it doesn't factor into campaign scores nor have viable capture points to make it worth while (not to mention ability to still gather 24 man raids to disrupt the balance.)

I fail to see how map movement based on emp pushes dictates whether or not small groups are viable.

If you(not literally you) want small scale, make your own action. Don't go running towards the big battles. Hit transit lines, take resources, go after outposts. Those are directly designed for small scale combat, keeps and scroll temples are designed for large groups. Small scale groups can absolutely make a difference in campaign score by working on both of those objectives, while larger groups maintain the battle over keeps.

Not everyone wants to go for Emp, those that do find a way regardless of their group size. I've seen solo/small scale players earn more AP than larger groups and grab Emp.

God_flakes · February 2016

Takllin wrote: »

show previous quotes

Minno wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

@God_flakes Next patch AP gains will be DOUBLED for groups up to six players.

See here for details: https://goo.gl/iQ3AwS

Correct.

Also should be noted:
- no objectives aside from resources to provide small man focus.
- emp is currently only AP based system forcing a map push. Requires large raids to succeed.

Therefore, in conclusion, nothing exists for players to focus on small group combat.

That's a bit disingenuous, don't ya think?

Small groups can battle over anything, but the population caps and large groups that people run in make it harder.

Sure, its open world to move as you please.

But can't escape the fact EMP pushes promote 90% of all map movements and, besides loose pvp award items costing AP, there is no other reason to gather this currency.

Only way to competively play for emp is to go where the players go. And those players are also trying to earn AP to earn EMP spots while moving to claim emp for their faction.

There is no reason for small group to exist, objective-wise. Yes they can battle whomever as long as the players don't outnumber them drastically or take a resource. But without a viable objective based on small team combat, this style of gameplay will have zero impact on the faction score leaving many to use this as an argument for why the game should only be large raid format.

IC is the closest, but it doesn't factor into campaign scores nor have viable capture points to make it worth while (not to mention ability to still gather 24 man raids to disrupt the balance.)

I fail to see how map movement based on emp pushes dictates whether or not small groups are viable.

If you(not literally you) want small scale, make your own action. Don't go running towards the big battles. Hit transit lines, take resources, go after outposts. Those are directly designed for small scale combat, keeps and scroll temples are designed for large groups. Small scale groups can absolutely make a difference in campaign score by working on both of those objectives, while larger groups maintain the battle over keeps.

Not everyone wants to go for Emp, those that do find a way regardless of their group size. I've seen solo/small scale players earn more AP than larger groups and grab Emp.

You're preaching to the choir. Minno is in MVP and that's ALL we do is small scale objectives.

FMonk · February 2016

Crown wrote: »

@God_flakes Next patch AP gains will be DOUBLED for groups up to six players.

See here for details: https://goo.gl/iQ3AwS

You would have an AP earning spreadsheet.

Takllin · February 2016

God_flakes wrote: »

show previous quotes

Takllin wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

@God_flakes Next patch AP gains will be DOUBLED for groups up to six players.

See here for details: https://goo.gl/iQ3AwS

Correct.

Also should be noted:
- no objectives aside from resources to provide small man focus.
- emp is currently only AP based system forcing a map push. Requires large raids to succeed.

Therefore, in conclusion, nothing exists for players to focus on small group combat.

That's a bit disingenuous, don't ya think?

Small groups can battle over anything, but the population caps and large groups that people run in make it harder.

Sure, its open world to move as you please.

But can't escape the fact EMP pushes promote 90% of all map movements and, besides loose pvp award items costing AP, there is no other reason to gather this currency.

Only way to competively play for emp is to go where the players go. And those players are also trying to earn AP to earn EMP spots while moving to claim emp for their faction.

There is no reason for small group to exist, objective-wise. Yes they can battle whomever as long as the players don't outnumber them drastically or take a resource. But without a viable objective based on small team combat, this style of gameplay will have zero impact on the faction score leaving many to use this as an argument for why the game should only be large raid format.

IC is the closest, but it doesn't factor into campaign scores nor have viable capture points to make it worth while (not to mention ability to still gather 24 man raids to disrupt the balance.)

I fail to see how map movement based on emp pushes dictates whether or not small groups are viable.

If you(not literally you) want small scale, make your own action. Don't go running towards the big battles. Hit transit lines, take resources, go after outposts. Those are directly designed for small scale combat, keeps and scroll temples are designed for large groups. Small scale groups can absolutely make a difference in campaign score by working on both of those objectives, while larger groups maintain the battle over keeps.

Not everyone wants to go for Emp, those that do find a way regardless of their group size. I've seen solo/small scale players earn more AP than larger groups and grab Emp.

You're preaching to the choir. Minno is in MVP and that's ALL we do is small scale objectives.

So how can you say that there is no place for small scale?

frozywozy · February 2016

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

When you look at the small scale vs large scale thing, it comes down to this:

1. In larger groups, the more people you have, the less individual skill matters...HOWEVER large zergs only succeed and rely solely on a GOOD RAID LEAD, with very specific builds that are usless outside of a group setting. without that good raid lead, the large zergs are not successful. A good raid lead and large numbers are both required to be successful in capturing large objectives.

2. In small scale 6-10 man groups, EACH member must be able to stay alive or survive on his/her own, being a good raid leader is less important as you are either tackling much smaller objectives, or are fighting small scale skirmishes that don't have objectives, your only goals are positioning, tactics, getting kills, playing smart, and staying alive. Since your not tackling big objectives, having a good raid leader is less important, being a solid player and know your class and having a build focused on keeping you alive is of more importance.

When it comes to large vs small groups, in large groups whats not needed in individual skill, that burden is then shifted to the raid leader who must be smart and know what he is doing to succeed. Neither of these styles need to be belitting the other, or fighting about whose better, or what style is better, or any of that.

At the end of the day both sides can make a difference.

Im just not big on siding against one or the other. the skill required is just shifted to different areas depending on the group size. Both parts are skillful gameplay, just in different areas.

As much as I dislike the large group mentality which cause terrible performance issues, I disagree when you say that everything is up to their raid leader. If players don't have enough situation awareness, if they don't know how to optimize their character as best as possible (sustain and survivability) and if they are not opened to switch certain abilities on their bars if needed, that large group facing an experienced group of the same size will have a very hard and long day. Individual player skill is still a must, but not as much as in a smaller group, obviously.

Minno · February 2016

Takllin wrote: »

show previous quotes

Minno wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

@God_flakes Next patch AP gains will be DOUBLED for groups up to six players.

See here for details: https://goo.gl/iQ3AwS

Correct.

Also should be noted:
- no objectives aside from resources to provide small man focus.
- emp is currently only AP based system forcing a map push. Requires large raids to succeed.

Therefore, in conclusion, nothing exists for players to focus on small group combat.

That's a bit disingenuous, don't ya think?

Small groups can battle over anything, but the population caps and large groups that people run in make it harder.

Sure, its open world to move as you please.

But can't escape the fact EMP pushes promote 90% of all map movements and, besides loose pvp award items costing AP, there is no other reason to gather this currency.

Only way to competively play for emp is to go where the players go. And those players are also trying to earn AP to earn EMP spots while moving to claim emp for their faction.

There is no reason for small group to exist, objective-wise. Yes they can battle whomever as long as the players don't outnumber them drastically or take a resource. But without a viable objective based on small team combat, this style of gameplay will have zero impact on the faction score leaving many to use this as an argument for why the game should only be large raid format.

IC is the closest, but it doesn't factor into campaign scores nor have viable capture points to make it worth while (not to mention ability to still gather 24 man raids to disrupt the balance.)

I fail to see how map movement based on emp pushes dictates whether or not small groups are viable.

If you(not literally you) want small scale, make your own action. Don't go running towards the big battles. Hit transit lines, take resources, go after outposts. Those are directly designed for small scale combat, keeps and scroll temples are designed for large groups. Small scale groups can absolutely make a difference in campaign score by working on both of those objectives, while larger groups maintain the battle over keeps.

Not everyone wants to go for Emp, those that do find a way regardless of their group size. I've seen solo/small scale players earn more AP than larger groups and grab Emp.

On buff servers, the action you create attracts large raids. The objectives are favored towards large raid formats (based on that numbers win fights.)

Every tactic you mentioned for small group can also be used by larger raids. Whereas EMP runs require the taking of ring keeps (4 of which reside in enemy territory.) At primetime (at its most competitive) without a large raid backing you will not achieve EMP. Also the most fun is gained via these moves (or denile of such moves).

There is no small group objective that is catered for this playstyle.

And regards to AP gain by smallman teams: the AP means nothing if you dont make it for emp. Emp requires large raid to compete successfully.

I'm only arguing there should be a mechanic that favors small teams over raids.

God_flakes · February 2016

Takllin wrote: »

show previous quotes

God_flakes wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

@God_flakes Next patch AP gains will be DOUBLED for groups up to six players.

See here for details: https://goo.gl/iQ3AwS

Correct.

Also should be noted:
- no objectives aside from resources to provide small man focus.
- emp is currently only AP based system forcing a map push. Requires large raids to succeed.

Therefore, in conclusion, nothing exists for players to focus on small group combat.

That's a bit disingenuous, don't ya think?

Small groups can battle over anything, but the population caps and large groups that people run in make it harder.

Sure, its open world to move as you please.

But can't escape the fact EMP pushes promote 90% of all map movements and, besides loose pvp award items costing AP, there is no other reason to gather this currency.

Only way to competively play for emp is to go where the players go. And those players are also trying to earn AP to earn EMP spots while moving to claim emp for their faction.

There is no reason for small group to exist, objective-wise. Yes they can battle whomever as long as the players don't outnumber them drastically or take a resource. But without a viable objective based on small team combat, this style of gameplay will have zero impact on the faction score leaving many to use this as an argument for why the game should only be large raid format.

IC is the closest, but it doesn't factor into campaign scores nor have viable capture points to make it worth while (not to mention ability to still gather 24 man raids to disrupt the balance.)

I fail to see how map movement based on emp pushes dictates whether or not small groups are viable.

If you(not literally you) want small scale, make your own action. Don't go running towards the big battles. Hit transit lines, take resources, go after outposts. Those are directly designed for small scale combat, keeps and scroll temples are designed for large groups. Small scale groups can absolutely make a difference in campaign score by working on both of those objectives, while larger groups maintain the battle over keeps.

Not everyone wants to go for Emp, those that do find a way regardless of their group size. I've seen solo/small scale players earn more AP than larger groups and grab Emp.

You're preaching to the choir. Minno is in MVP and that's ALL we do is small scale objectives.

So how can you say that there is no place for small scale?

I didn't say there was no place for it. I don't think zos should manipulate it's pvp player base to do it because they can't fix the server lag.

FMonk · February 2016

God_flakes wrote: »

show previous quotes

Takllin wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

@God_flakes Next patch AP gains will be DOUBLED for groups up to six players.

See here for details: https://goo.gl/iQ3AwS

Correct.

Also should be noted:
- no objectives aside from resources to provide small man focus.
- emp is currently only AP based system forcing a map push. Requires large raids to succeed.

Therefore, in conclusion, nothing exists for players to focus on small group combat.

That's a bit disingenuous, don't ya think?

Small groups can battle over anything, but the population caps and large groups that people run in make it harder.

Sure, its open world to move as you please.

But can't escape the fact EMP pushes promote 90% of all map movements and, besides loose pvp award items costing AP, there is no other reason to gather this currency.

Only way to competively play for emp is to go where the players go. And those players are also trying to earn AP to earn EMP spots while moving to claim emp for their faction.

There is no reason for small group to exist, objective-wise. Yes they can battle whomever as long as the players don't outnumber them drastically or take a resource. But without a viable objective based on small team combat, this style of gameplay will have zero impact on the faction score leaving many to use this as an argument for why the game should only be large raid format.

IC is the closest, but it doesn't factor into campaign scores nor have viable capture points to make it worth while (not to mention ability to still gather 24 man raids to disrupt the balance.)

I fail to see how map movement based on emp pushes dictates whether or not small groups are viable.

If you(not literally you) want small scale, make your own action. Don't go running towards the big battles. Hit transit lines, take resources, go after outposts. Those are directly designed for small scale combat, keeps and scroll temples are designed for large groups. Small scale groups can absolutely make a difference in campaign score by working on both of those objectives, while larger groups maintain the battle over keeps.

Not everyone wants to go for Emp, those that do find a way regardless of their group size. I've seen solo/small scale players earn more AP than larger groups and grab Emp.

You're preaching to the choir. Minno is in MVP and that's ALL we do is small scale objectives.

So how can you say that there is no place for small scale?

I didn't say there was no place for it. I don't think zos should manipulate it's pvp player base to do it because they can't fix the server lag.

At some point we're going to have to accept that the large scale game that was advertised doesn't exist. Pop caps have gone way down since launch, and performance has gotten worse.

People can keep being stubborn and insist on playing the game "as it was meant to be played", or we can accept that massive scale battles simply don't work and support changes that will allow for functioning pvp.

Minno · February 2016

Takllin wrote: »

show previous quotes

God_flakes wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

@God_flakes Next patch AP gains will be DOUBLED for groups up to six players.

See here for details: https://goo.gl/iQ3AwS

Correct.

Also should be noted:
- no objectives aside from resources to provide small man focus.
- emp is currently only AP based system forcing a map push. Requires large raids to succeed.

Therefore, in conclusion, nothing exists for players to focus on small group combat.

That's a bit disingenuous, don't ya think?

Small groups can battle over anything, but the population caps and large groups that people run in make it harder.

Sure, its open world to move as you please.

But can't escape the fact EMP pushes promote 90% of all map movements and, besides loose pvp award items costing AP, there is no other reason to gather this currency.

Only way to competively play for emp is to go where the players go. And those players are also trying to earn AP to earn EMP spots while moving to claim emp for their faction.

There is no reason for small group to exist, objective-wise. Yes they can battle whomever as long as the players don't outnumber them drastically or take a resource. But without a viable objective based on small team combat, this style of gameplay will have zero impact on the faction score leaving many to use this as an argument for why the game should only be large raid format.

IC is the closest, but it doesn't factor into campaign scores nor have viable capture points to make it worth while (not to mention ability to still gather 24 man raids to disrupt the balance.)

I fail to see how map movement based on emp pushes dictates whether or not small groups are viable.

If you(not literally you) want small scale, make your own action. Don't go running towards the big battles. Hit transit lines, take resources, go after outposts. Those are directly designed for small scale combat, keeps and scroll temples are designed for large groups. Small scale groups can absolutely make a difference in campaign score by working on both of those objectives, while larger groups maintain the battle over keeps.

Not everyone wants to go for Emp, those that do find a way regardless of their group size. I've seen solo/small scale players earn more AP than larger groups and grab Emp.

You're preaching to the choir. Minno is in MVP and that's ALL we do is small scale objectives.

So how can you say that there is no place for small scale?

Dedicated objective based there is no small team. Every tactic you mentioned is explored by the small team community.

I'm just calling out, compared to large raid formats, there are no competitive based objectives with a leaderboard dedicated to smaller team formats to help promote faction wins.

RinaldoGandolphi · February 2016

frozywozy wrote: »

show previous quotes

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

When you look at the small scale vs large scale thing, it comes down to this:

1. In larger groups, the more people you have, the less individual skill matters...HOWEVER large zergs only succeed and rely solely on a GOOD RAID LEAD, with very specific builds that are usless outside of a group setting. without that good raid lead, the large zergs are not successful. A good raid lead and large numbers are both required to be successful in capturing large objectives.

2. In small scale 6-10 man groups, EACH member must be able to stay alive or survive on his/her own, being a good raid leader is less important as you are either tackling much smaller objectives, or are fighting small scale skirmishes that don't have objectives, your only goals are positioning, tactics, getting kills, playing smart, and staying alive. Since your not tackling big objectives, having a good raid leader is less important, being a solid player and know your class and having a build focused on keeping you alive is of more importance.

When it comes to large vs small groups, in large groups whats not needed in individual skill, that burden is then shifted to the raid leader who must be smart and know what he is doing to succeed. Neither of these styles need to be belitting the other, or fighting about whose better, or what style is better, or any of that.

At the end of the day both sides can make a difference.

Im just not big on siding against one or the other. the skill required is just shifted to different areas depending on the group size. Both parts are skillful gameplay, just in different areas.

As much as I dislike the large group mentality which cause terrible performance issues, I disagree when you say that everything is up to their raid leader. If players don't have enough situation awareness, if they don't know how to optimize their character as best as possible (sustain and survivability) and if they are not opened to switch certain abilities on their bars if needed, that large group facing an experienced group of the same size will have a very hard and long day. Individual player skill is still a must, but not as much as in a smaller group, obviously.

Frozen

I put so much emphasis on the Raid Leader for large groups because at the end of the day:

In most large fights, whichever lead makes the right call wins the fight....the raid lead is the QB of the raid...he makes the calls that decide if the group wins or wipes, and you have to have a good one in order to be successful.

Players can be taught, trained, geared, etc, but good leadership doesn't grow on trees. You can replace the wheels(players in your group) but leaders are much harder to replace. If i understand correctly, most of the core of VE that re-rolled no longer plays....yet the leaders are still there....they brought up new people on DC as well as recruiting veterans....again...the single constant is the leadership was still there...as long as those leaders are there, they can recruit, train, gear, and replace parts...as long as that leadership remains in place with those solid guild leaders they will be successful because of it....As they can always train and teach new people....replacing any of those Raid Leads however would be quite a daunting affair and good luck with that.....

Regardless, im not disagreeing with you Frozen, you have to have good players that are geared that you have trained in order to do well, its just good leaders are hard to find and even harder to replace, as long as you have good leadership, you can always train and replace individual parts, but getting good drivers is a much harder affair.

Takllin · February 2016

Minno wrote: »

show previous quotes

Takllin wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

@God_flakes Next patch AP gains will be DOUBLED for groups up to six players.

See here for details: https://goo.gl/iQ3AwS

Correct.

Also should be noted:
- no objectives aside from resources to provide small man focus.
- emp is currently only AP based system forcing a map push. Requires large raids to succeed.

Therefore, in conclusion, nothing exists for players to focus on small group combat.

That's a bit disingenuous, don't ya think?

Small groups can battle over anything, but the population caps and large groups that people run in make it harder.

Sure, its open world to move as you please.

But can't escape the fact EMP pushes promote 90% of all map movements and, besides loose pvp award items costing AP, there is no other reason to gather this currency.

Only way to competively play for emp is to go where the players go. And those players are also trying to earn AP to earn EMP spots while moving to claim emp for their faction.

There is no reason for small group to exist, objective-wise. Yes they can battle whomever as long as the players don't outnumber them drastically or take a resource. But without a viable objective based on small team combat, this style of gameplay will have zero impact on the faction score leaving many to use this as an argument for why the game should only be large raid format.

IC is the closest, but it doesn't factor into campaign scores nor have viable capture points to make it worth while (not to mention ability to still gather 24 man raids to disrupt the balance.)

I fail to see how map movement based on emp pushes dictates whether or not small groups are viable.

If you(not literally you) want small scale, make your own action. Don't go running towards the big battles. Hit transit lines, take resources, go after outposts. Those are directly designed for small scale combat, keeps and scroll temples are designed for large groups. Small scale groups can absolutely make a difference in campaign score by working on both of those objectives, while larger groups maintain the battle over keeps.

Not everyone wants to go for Emp, those that do find a way regardless of their group size. I've seen solo/small scale players earn more AP than larger groups and grab Emp.

You're preaching to the choir. Minno is in MVP and that's ALL we do is small scale objectives.

So how can you say that there is no place for small scale?

Dedicated objective based there is no small team. Every tactic you mentioned is explored by the small team community.

I'm just calling out, compared to large raid formats, there are no competitive based objectives with a leaderboard dedicated to smaller team formats to help promote faction wins.

There is though, just because a large raid can come take something a small group did, doesn't mean small scale is invalidated.

We don't see eye to eye then, I don't need a leaderboard to make my efforts in Cyrodil feel validated. If I flip resources or outposts and we got those points at the scoring evaluation because of that, plenty enough for me. Or distracting players from hitting other objectives by taking resources and outposts.

God_flakes · February 2016

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

When you look at the small scale vs large scale thing, it comes down to this:

1. In larger groups, the more people you have, the less individual skill matters...HOWEVER large zergs only succeed and rely solely on a GOOD RAID LEAD, with very specific builds that are usless outside of a group setting. without that good raid lead, the large zergs are not successful. A good raid lead and large numbers are both required to be successful in capturing large objectives.

2. In small scale 6-10 man groups, EACH member must be able to stay alive or survive on his/her own, being a good raid leader is less important as you are either tackling much smaller objectives, or are fighting small scale skirmishes that don't have objectives, your only goals are positioning, tactics, getting kills, playing smart, and staying alive. Since your not tackling big objectives, having a good raid leader is less important, being a solid player and know your class and having a build focused on keeping you alive is of more importance.

When it comes to large vs small groups, in large groups whats not needed in individual skill, that burden is then shifted to the raid leader who must be smart and know what he is doing to succeed. Neither of these styles need to be belitting the other, or fighting about whose better, or what style is better, or any of that.

At the end of the day both sides can make a difference.

Im just not big on siding against one or the other. the skill required is just shifted to different areas depending on the group size. Both parts are skillful gameplay, just in different areas.

I have led large groups of random pugs, the vast majority not in teamspeak, using only group chat, most of them not even in my group (rather getting screamed at in zone), and we pulled off large objectives like we did the other night ousting Frozy and Co. from Warden and flipping it back blue. Nobody needs zos to treat players like children and penalize them for being coordinated in large groups because THEY can't fix their server issues which can't, somehow after 2 years, still can't handle what the PROMISED. Trying to manipulate players into running small is just one more fail fix. It won't work. People are going to zerg, still. Period and end of story.

You say neither needs to belittle one another but you're very clearly saying large group players suck and only succeed because their leader is the bomb. Please. This is utter baloney.

God_flakes · February 2016

FMonk wrote: »

show previous quotes

God_flakes wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

@God_flakes Next patch AP gains will be DOUBLED for groups up to six players.

See here for details: https://goo.gl/iQ3AwS

Correct.

Also should be noted:
- no objectives aside from resources to provide small man focus.
- emp is currently only AP based system forcing a map push. Requires large raids to succeed.

Therefore, in conclusion, nothing exists for players to focus on small group combat.

That's a bit disingenuous, don't ya think?

Small groups can battle over anything, but the population caps and large groups that people run in make it harder.

Sure, its open world to move as you please.

But can't escape the fact EMP pushes promote 90% of all map movements and, besides loose pvp award items costing AP, there is no other reason to gather this currency.

Only way to competively play for emp is to go where the players go. And those players are also trying to earn AP to earn EMP spots while moving to claim emp for their faction.

There is no reason for small group to exist, objective-wise. Yes they can battle whomever as long as the players don't outnumber them drastically or take a resource. But without a viable objective based on small team combat, this style of gameplay will have zero impact on the faction score leaving many to use this as an argument for why the game should only be large raid format.

IC is the closest, but it doesn't factor into campaign scores nor have viable capture points to make it worth while (not to mention ability to still gather 24 man raids to disrupt the balance.)

I fail to see how map movement based on emp pushes dictates whether or not small groups are viable.

If you(not literally you) want small scale, make your own action. Don't go running towards the big battles. Hit transit lines, take resources, go after outposts. Those are directly designed for small scale combat, keeps and scroll temples are designed for large groups. Small scale groups can absolutely make a difference in campaign score by working on both of those objectives, while larger groups maintain the battle over keeps.

Not everyone wants to go for Emp, those that do find a way regardless of their group size. I've seen solo/small scale players earn more AP than larger groups and grab Emp.

You're preaching to the choir. Minno is in MVP and that's ALL we do is small scale objectives.

So how can you say that there is no place for small scale?

I didn't say there was no place for it. I don't think zos should manipulate it's pvp player base to do it because they can't fix the server lag.

At some point we're going to have to accept that the large scale game that was advertised doesn't exist. Pop caps have gone way down since launch, and performance has gotten worse.

People can keep being stubborn and insist on playing the game "as it was meant to be played", or we can accept that massive scale battles simply don't work and support changes that will allow for functioning pvp.

I feel you, believe me I do. And it's obvious to me that everyone who loves pvp is pained by the code/server failure. I guess for me I think we need to demand they fix their end rather than constantly expecting us to accept their failure and alter our game experience, in this case pretty dramatically.

God_flakes · February 2016

Takllin wrote: »

show previous quotes

Minno wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

@God_flakes Next patch AP gains will be DOUBLED for groups up to six players.

See here for details: https://goo.gl/iQ3AwS

Correct.

Also should be noted:
- no objectives aside from resources to provide small man focus.
- emp is currently only AP based system forcing a map push. Requires large raids to succeed.

Therefore, in conclusion, nothing exists for players to focus on small group combat.

That's a bit disingenuous, don't ya think?

Small groups can battle over anything, but the population caps and large groups that people run in make it harder.

Sure, its open world to move as you please.

But can't escape the fact EMP pushes promote 90% of all map movements and, besides loose pvp award items costing AP, there is no other reason to gather this currency.

Only way to competively play for emp is to go where the players go. And those players are also trying to earn AP to earn EMP spots while moving to claim emp for their faction.

There is no reason for small group to exist, objective-wise. Yes they can battle whomever as long as the players don't outnumber them drastically or take a resource. But without a viable objective based on small team combat, this style of gameplay will have zero impact on the faction score leaving many to use this as an argument for why the game should only be large raid format.

IC is the closest, but it doesn't factor into campaign scores nor have viable capture points to make it worth while (not to mention ability to still gather 24 man raids to disrupt the balance.)

I fail to see how map movement based on emp pushes dictates whether or not small groups are viable.

If you(not literally you) want small scale, make your own action. Don't go running towards the big battles. Hit transit lines, take resources, go after outposts. Those are directly designed for small scale combat, keeps and scroll temples are designed for large groups. Small scale groups can absolutely make a difference in campaign score by working on both of those objectives, while larger groups maintain the battle over keeps.

Not everyone wants to go for Emp, those that do find a way regardless of their group size. I've seen solo/small scale players earn more AP than larger groups and grab Emp.

You're preaching to the choir. Minno is in MVP and that's ALL we do is small scale objectives.

So how can you say that there is no place for small scale?

Dedicated objective based there is no small team. Every tactic you mentioned is explored by the small team community.

I'm just calling out, compared to large raid formats, there are no competitive based objectives with a leaderboard dedicated to smaller team formats to help promote faction wins.

There is though, just because a large raid can come take something a small group did, doesn't mean small scale is invalidated.

We don't see eye to eye then, I don't need a leaderboard to make my efforts in Cyrodil feel validated. If I flip resources or outposts and we got those points at the scoring evaluation because of that, plenty enough for me. Or distracting players from hitting other objectives by taking resources and outposts.

This requires a behavioral change for DC especially, though. And I don't think I need to name names but many on DC side remain rather buttock hurt over past perceived transgressions and slights. People who are going to still run big need to get over it start communicating with the smaller scale guys (my guild including) and working together better. Problem is many larger DC guilds leaders are horrible at communication. I know for a fact many larger guilds don't even talk to one another.

OdinForge · February 2016

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

Chaos coming isn't always a bad thing

frozywozy · February 2016

God_flakes wrote: »

show previous quotes

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

When you look at the small scale vs large scale thing, it comes down to this:

1. In larger groups, the more people you have, the less individual skill matters...HOWEVER large zergs only succeed and rely solely on a GOOD RAID LEAD, with very specific builds that are usless outside of a group setting. without that good raid lead, the large zergs are not successful. A good raid lead and large numbers are both required to be successful in capturing large objectives.

2. In small scale 6-10 man groups, EACH member must be able to stay alive or survive on his/her own, being a good raid leader is less important as you are either tackling much smaller objectives, or are fighting small scale skirmishes that don't have objectives, your only goals are positioning, tactics, getting kills, playing smart, and staying alive. Since your not tackling big objectives, having a good raid leader is less important, being a solid player and know your class and having a build focused on keeping you alive is of more importance.

When it comes to large vs small groups, in large groups whats not needed in individual skill, that burden is then shifted to the raid leader who must be smart and know what he is doing to succeed. Neither of these styles need to be belitting the other, or fighting about whose better, or what style is better, or any of that.

At the end of the day both sides can make a difference.

Im just not big on siding against one or the other. the skill required is just shifted to different areas depending on the group size. Both parts are skillful gameplay, just in different areas.

I have led large groups of random pugs, the vast majority not in teamspeak, using only group chat, most of them not even in my group (rather getting screamed at in zone), and we pulled off large objectives like we did the other night ousting Frozy and Co. from Warden and flipping it back blue. Nobody needs zos to treat players like children and penalize them for being coordinated in large groups because THEY can't fix their server issues which can't, somehow after 2 years, still can't handle what the PROMISED. Trying to manipulate players into running small is just one more fail fix. It won't work. People are going to zerg, still. Period and end of story.

You say neither needs to belittle one another but you're very clearly saying large group players suck and only succeed because their leader is the bomb. Please. This is utter baloney.

I understand everything you've said in here but I just want to point out that the keep you ousted me from was empty :P Was only me trying to slow you down as much as possible while EP was busy defending both Brk, Chal and Arrius all flagged by AD.

God_flakes · February 2016

frozywozy wrote: »

show previous quotes

God_flakes wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

When you look at the small scale vs large scale thing, it comes down to this:

1. In larger groups, the more people you have, the less individual skill matters...HOWEVER large zergs only succeed and rely solely on a GOOD RAID LEAD, with very specific builds that are usless outside of a group setting. without that good raid lead, the large zergs are not successful. A good raid lead and large numbers are both required to be successful in capturing large objectives.

2. In small scale 6-10 man groups, EACH member must be able to stay alive or survive on his/her own, being a good raid leader is less important as you are either tackling much smaller objectives, or are fighting small scale skirmishes that don't have objectives, your only goals are positioning, tactics, getting kills, playing smart, and staying alive. Since your not tackling big objectives, having a good raid leader is less important, being a solid player and know your class and having a build focused on keeping you alive is of more importance.

When it comes to large vs small groups, in large groups whats not needed in individual skill, that burden is then shifted to the raid leader who must be smart and know what he is doing to succeed. Neither of these styles need to be belitting the other, or fighting about whose better, or what style is better, or any of that.

At the end of the day both sides can make a difference.

Im just not big on siding against one or the other. the skill required is just shifted to different areas depending on the group size. Both parts are skillful gameplay, just in different areas.

I have led large groups of random pugs, the vast majority not in teamspeak, using only group chat, most of them not even in my group (rather getting screamed at in zone), and we pulled off large objectives like we did the other night ousting Frozy and Co. from Warden and flipping it back blue. Nobody needs zos to treat players like children and penalize them for being coordinated in large groups because THEY can't fix their server issues which can't, somehow after 2 years, still can't handle what the PROMISED. Trying to manipulate players into running small is just one more fail fix. It won't work. People are going to zerg, still. Period and end of story.

You say neither needs to belittle one another but you're very clearly saying large group players suck and only succeed because their leader is the bomb. Please. This is utter baloney.

I understand everything you've said in here but I just want to point out that the keep you ousted me from was empty :P Was only me trying to slow you down as much as possible while EP was busy defending both Brk, Chal and Arrius all flagged by AD.

Adorable lies from an adorable guy.

Minno · February 2016

Takllin wrote: »

show previous quotes

Minno wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

@God_flakes Next patch AP gains will be DOUBLED for groups up to six players.

See here for details: https://goo.gl/iQ3AwS

Correct.

Also should be noted:
- no objectives aside from resources to provide small man focus.
- emp is currently only AP based system forcing a map push. Requires large raids to succeed.

Therefore, in conclusion, nothing exists for players to focus on small group combat.

That's a bit disingenuous, don't ya think?

Small groups can battle over anything, but the population caps and large groups that people run in make it harder.

Sure, its open world to move as you please.

But can't escape the fact EMP pushes promote 90% of all map movements and, besides loose pvp award items costing AP, there is no other reason to gather this currency.

Only way to competively play for emp is to go where the players go. And those players are also trying to earn AP to earn EMP spots while moving to claim emp for their faction.

There is no reason for small group to exist, objective-wise. Yes they can battle whomever as long as the players don't outnumber them drastically or take a resource. But without a viable objective based on small team combat, this style of gameplay will have zero impact on the faction score leaving many to use this as an argument for why the game should only be large raid format.

IC is the closest, but it doesn't factor into campaign scores nor have viable capture points to make it worth while (not to mention ability to still gather 24 man raids to disrupt the balance.)

I fail to see how map movement based on emp pushes dictates whether or not small groups are viable.

If you(not literally you) want small scale, make your own action. Don't go running towards the big battles. Hit transit lines, take resources, go after outposts. Those are directly designed for small scale combat, keeps and scroll temples are designed for large groups. Small scale groups can absolutely make a difference in campaign score by working on both of those objectives, while larger groups maintain the battle over keeps.

Not everyone wants to go for Emp, those that do find a way regardless of their group size. I've seen solo/small scale players earn more AP than larger groups and grab Emp.

You're preaching to the choir. Minno is in MVP and that's ALL we do is small scale objectives.

So how can you say that there is no place for small scale?

Dedicated objective based there is no small team. Every tactic you mentioned is explored by the small team community.

I'm just calling out, compared to large raid formats, there are no competitive based objectives with a leaderboard dedicated to smaller team formats to help promote faction wins.

There is though, just because a large raid can come take something a small group did, doesn't mean small scale is invalidated.

We don't see eye to eye then, I don't need a leaderboard to make my efforts in Cyrodil feel validated. If I flip resources or outposts and we got those points at the scoring evaluation because of that, plenty enough for me. Or distracting players from hitting other objectives by taking resources and outposts.

We do see eye to eye, the importance of small group efforts in the tactics you mentioned.

From a point standpoint, it would be nice to have a way to celebrate small team tactics and reward them for those efforts. New AP system, with vr16 gear might help. But I'd rather there be a celebrated objective that's not tied to a keep.

RinaldoGandolphi · February 2016

God_flakes wrote: »

show previous quotes

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

When you look at the small scale vs large scale thing, it comes down to this:

1. In larger groups, the more people you have, the less individual skill matters...HOWEVER large zergs only succeed and rely solely on a GOOD RAID LEAD, with very specific builds that are usless outside of a group setting. without that good raid lead, the large zergs are not successful. A good raid lead and large numbers are both required to be successful in capturing large objectives.

2. In small scale 6-10 man groups, EACH member must be able to stay alive or survive on his/her own, being a good raid leader is less important as you are either tackling much smaller objectives, or are fighting small scale skirmishes that don't have objectives, your only goals are positioning, tactics, getting kills, playing smart, and staying alive. Since your not tackling big objectives, having a good raid leader is less important, being a solid player and know your class and having a build focused on keeping you alive is of more importance.

When it comes to large vs small groups, in large groups whats not needed in individual skill, that burden is then shifted to the raid leader who must be smart and know what he is doing to succeed. Neither of these styles need to be belitting the other, or fighting about whose better, or what style is better, or any of that.

At the end of the day both sides can make a difference.

Im just not big on siding against one or the other. the skill required is just shifted to different areas depending on the group size. Both parts are skillful gameplay, just in different areas.

I have led large groups of random pugs, the vast majority not in teamspeak, using only group chat, most of them not even in my group (rather getting screamed at in zone), and we pulled off large objectives like we did the other night ousting Frozy and Co. from Warden and flipping it back blue. Nobody needs zos to treat players like children and penalize them for being coordinated in large groups because THEY can't fix their server issues which can't, somehow after 2 years, still can't handle what the PROMISED. Trying to manipulate players into running small is just one more fail fix. It won't work. People are going to zerg, still. Period and end of story.

You say neither needs to belittle one another but you're very clearly saying large group players suck and only succeed because their leader is the bomb. Please. This is utter baloney.

I never said large group players suck. It's a different skill set and it's not any less skillful then small group play like many on here champion. You look at any organization from a business to pvp raid, good leaders are the cog that makes the wheel turn, they are what points the sum of all parts in the right direction and puts them in position to succeed.

Your vastly undervaluing yourself in that statement.

The majority to DC woes prior to re-rolls was DC lack of good leaders. When you, Egypt, bitaken, hova, Tiberius, and others quit the game DC had a very hard time. I have no interest in leading or any of that I just want to scout and fight.

Just because large and small groups have different skill sets don't make either any less legit, and good leaders are required to win. Your one of those leaders so smile a bit sheesh!

Jules · February 2016

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

When you look at the small scale vs large scale thing, it comes down to this:

1. In larger groups, the more people you have, the less individual skill matters...HOWEVER large zergs only succeed and rely solely on a GOOD RAID LEAD, with very specific builds that are usless outside of a group setting. without that good raid lead, the large zergs are not successful. A good raid lead and large numbers are both required to be successful in capturing large objectives.

2. In small scale 6-10 man groups, EACH member must be able to stay alive or survive on his/her own, being a good raid leader is less important as you are either tackling much smaller objectives, or are fighting small scale skirmishes that don't have objectives, your only goals are positioning, tactics, getting kills, playing smart, and staying alive. Since your not tackling big objectives, having a good raid leader is less important, being a solid player and know your class and having a build focused on keeping you alive is of more importance.

When it comes to large vs small groups, in large groups whats not needed in individual skill, that burden is then shifted to the raid leader who must be smart and know what he is doing to succeed. Neither of these styles need to be belitting the other, or fighting about whose better, or what style is better, or any of that.

At the end of the day both sides can make a difference.

Im just not big on siding against one or the other. the skill required is just shifted to different areas depending on the group size. Both parts are skillful gameplay, just in different areas.

Very well said despite it being demonized.

The truth of the matter is that small group gameplay demands a higher level of self sustainability than large group. I play in both every day and small group nearly always requires more skill, careful resource management and awareness. Despite me playing in large guild gameplay frequently, it is hard to pretend that these two require the same level of focus. When I have someone running speeds/heals/purges/and making calls for me, this is obviously not as taxing as trying to find avenues of doing that all for myself, or with a limited number of people. When groups get large enough, it is easy to get lost, tune out, and essentially auto run and spin to win to victory.

This is not to say that large group does not require a skill set, because it does. There is a reason that some guilds are more successful than others and it isn't because of luck. Large group players in good guilds still have resource management, awareness, rotating buffs, placement in relation to danger, ect - to consider and master. This is also not to say that large group does not have its place in Cyrodiil, or that the objective-based nature of PVP is not specifically designed for large groups. I believe it is. However, I think the position we find ourselves in, is that because of ZOS shortcomings, these two playstyles are pitted against one another. The introduction of more people acts as a catalyst for poor server performance, despite anyones good intentions; so its only natural that small group would harbor resentments toward large group players albeit somewhat misguided.

But the point of this post was not to get into a war about small group v. large group. The point was to advocate for a server where small group can exist so that all who play can find some enjoyment in the playstyle of their preference.

God_flakes · February 2016

"Advocate for a server where small group can exist..."

This already exists, though. Rin and Minno and I (and we now have an amazing new healer) have been doing it for months. We see lots of other people doing it, too. It exists. We routinely take on 4x our numbers. We horse simulate from resource to resource. When we see keeps being burst we gallop to the resources and cap them all. We attack backs of siege lines and we scout and make alerts in zone. It's not sexy or appreciated work and we rarely get a thank you from the larger groups or guilds. But it DOES exist. I don't hold resentment towards this-I only wish the larger guilds would communicate with the smaller groups to make us even more effective and useful. Unfortunately, on DC side hurt buttocks and old quarrels often prevent many from working together for the common good. But the larger guilds are very, very important. The soldiers who fill those ranks are critical to moving the map-can't be done without those bodies who are willing to die and rez and die and ride again and again. I wasn't demonizing-just got a little defensive and protective of those people and their essential role in pvp. Peace

P.s. We have tried TF many, many times and the main hitch there is the 100,000,000 Ad there in large groups and the ad who nightcap. You get steamrolled if you're not careful and there is no DC large group to steamroll them back. And when you go back to the map the next day and see it all yellow it's demoralizing.