Justice System PvP - Please explain exactly WHY you are for / against this content!

Messy1

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I am for the justice system because it seemed to becoming more and more a part of the TES story between Oblivion and Skyrim. I guarantee you that TES VI will have a cool justice system that will put ESO to shame and make the good people at ZOS, whom I admire and adore, look like unimaginative, lazy, and fearful of game innovation.

ESO has showed a remarkable lack of innovation as a MMO when it comes to player to player interactions. Instead of allowing players opportunities to interact with each other through innovative game systems and design we have had numerous glimpses at what could be and then had those things shut down. I like the game 100%, it can and will be more interesting. ZOS needs to follow through on creative initiatives that are uniquely TES related and would immerse players more.

Huggalump

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I don't think a flag system would work. As a thief, there's no reason to flag yourself for pvp if you're trying to steal stuff.

IMO, there should be a faction choice. Thieves or Vigilantes. Regular people don't participate in the justice system. Vigilantes can't steal. Thieves can't catch thieves. But once you choose a faction, it's possible you might get PVPed while thieving. People will complain, but deal with it. If you make a game trying to please everyone, it's going to come out so generic and watered down that no one will like it.

Iluvrien

I am against Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I haven't played a game where there is a PvP Justice system, but I have played ones where I have taken part in Justice type situations in wPvP enabled systems. Including this in the voting options is an appeal to authority: "You only get your views on the subject taken seriously if you have done it in the past and haven't liked it". No. Just no.

Your response to the person who didn't want to see PvP going on was also lacking. "Come on dude" isn't a reasoned response. It isn't playing devil's advocate. It is dismissing the concern of another player based on your own bias. The same goes for not having heard "a single reason that has convinced" you. There have been plenty of reasons given since launch. I suspect the issue is that you dismiss them based on your desire for this system, rather than that they are actually bad, or even unconvincing, arguments.

And, for the record, the reason I am glad that this isn't being implemented is because I don't want to see it. Ever. This game was launched without wPvP. If they are going to introduce it then they are going to need to make a much stronger argument than anyone has done before I will accept how this will impact on my own play time. The current version of the justice system already does, sometimes when I am in a bank, the entire environment explodes as some hapless idiot takes on the guards in there. You think that contributes to my ability to critically consider what I should/shouldn't keep... or how best to fulfill a crafting order? Do you honestly believe that this will occur less if the PvP part of the justice system is implemented?

Quite simply, unless someone can promise that all Justice flagged players would be phased out of my sight, I am going to be against this... and remain against it.

NeillMcAttack

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

The very thought of another player killing them seems to put the chills right up people. So much so that it is much more favourable for them to be killed by an unkillable NPC than another actual player.
Is it a self-esteem issue? An ego thing? Or are they just a bunch of spoil sports??

willymchilybily

they could fulfil both if they just made it only possible to claim a player bounty when they enter cyrodil. After all how many people with millions of bounty have to end up hiding in cyrodil for a few days. and attacking ones own faction seems more problematic than worth while

but its still too open to abuse system in general. claim my bounty when I have no money what you get AP? i become an AP farm? just dont see it working

NeillMcAttack

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Iluvrien wrote: »

I haven't played a game where there is a PvP Justice system, but I have played ones where I have taken part in Justice type situations in wPvP enabled systems. Including this in the voting options is an appeal to authority: "You only get your views on the subject taken seriously if you have done it in the past and haven't liked it". No. Just no.

Your response to the person who didn't want to see PvP going on was also lacking. "Come on dude" isn't a reasoned response. It isn't playing devil's advocate. It is dismissing the concern of another player based on your own bias. The same goes for not having heard "a single reason that has convinced" you. There have been plenty of reasons given since launch. I suspect the issue is that you dismiss them based on your desire for this system, rather than that they are actually bad, or even unconvincing, arguments.

And, for the record, the reason I am glad that this isn't being implemented is because I don't want to see it. Ever. This game was launched without wPvP. If they are going to introduce it then they are going to need to make a much stronger argument than anyone has done before I will accept how this will impact on my own play time. The current version of the justice system already does, sometimes when I am in a bank, the entire environment explodes as some hapless idiot takes on the guards in there. You think that contributes to my ability to critically consider what I should/shouldn't keep... or how best to fulfill a crafting order? Do you honestly believe that this will occur less if the PvP part of the justice system is implemented?

Quite simply, unless someone can promise that all Justice flagged players would be phased out of my sight, I am going to be against this... and remain against it.

"Come on dude" is about as justifiable an argument as, "it didn't have it before so I don't want it" or "it might distract me"!

Johngo0036

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

What i would like to see is the following.....

PVP Justice should be for players who have committed crimes and run from the law...
If you commit a crime to complete a quest then you pay your bounty and its done..

This should be system like in the wild west.... after a week of not paying your bounty you will be prosecuted by fellow players...

Player wanting to collect bounties would go to a "vendor" and this vendor will have a whole list of these villians you can chose from.... more bounty for higher gaps in level....

Maybe you will be told where they were last seen and this could be updated each time you change area... maybe you can only get the quests when you enter Cyrodiil and the list will only be populated with people in Cyrodiil...

I would love this as an option to Cyrodiil.....
PVE'ers not entering Cyrodiil would therefore not be affected.....

On handing in the quest at the "vendor" you get a gold reward as well as an Armour/Weapon set piece..
This would not be too difficult to implement....

azoriangaming

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

there are 2 things I was waiting for in this game and they were the part 2 of the justice system and arenas, Now there will only be arenas and they better be awesome or we can say bye bye to the pvp community.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

I am against Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Huggalump wrote: »

I don't think a flag system would work. As a thief, there's no reason to flag yourself for pvp if you're trying to steal stuff.

IMO, there should be a faction choice. Thieves or Vigilantes. Regular people don't participate in the justice system. Vigilantes can't steal. Thieves can't catch thieves. But once you choose a faction, it's possible you might get PVPed while thieving. People will complain, but deal with it. If you make a game trying to please everyone, it's going to come out so generic and watered down that no one will like it.

Well, if they put in forced PvP anywhere outside cyrodiil, they'd kill off much of the game population, really.

anitajoneb17_ESO

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I was looking forward to the justice system for the stealth game. I don't mean assassin combat style, but real stealth game : achieving your goal while not entering / avoiding combat.
Skyrim has entire game mechanics / location designs for that playstyle. ESO has NONE besides IC and justice system. The current justice system though is not actually designed around it : guards routines are too predictible and obvious, it becomes boring quickly. Any experienced thief now knows how to break each and every chest in this game without giving it a thought. The 2nd part would have made it possible, wold have added fun, life, depth, and A LOT of replayability.

But I guess ZOS has given up on their prospect to combine PvE and PvP in mixed zones. Balancing issues are probably a major reason, along with the loud voices of all those who disliked the concept and asked for a PvP-free IC and a PvP-free Cyrodiil for questing. ZOS is going "PvP arena" instead (many loud voices for that, including yours, I believe, @Lefty_Lucy ... ) . Be careful what you wish for... You also mentioned (you or one of your "We are ESO" co-stars) that you were not interested in mixed content because PvEers typically don't know how to PvP and are not very fun to fight... so here we have the result... I thnik we're done with mixed content and I'm very sad about it because these places are the only ones where it's possible to play the stealth game.


.

tengri

I am against Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Thankfully that horse is dead now. No more need to try to lobby it.
As for why against... PvP where PvP aint supposed to be. Ever.

Dexter411

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

My idea:
Let people decide if they want to be thief or guard/"police" of Tamriel.
Add 2 NPC's and you can choose sides. If you choose to be thief you would be able to help other thiefs escape from guards or other players. Same goes for being a "good guy". However, thieves can not attack "police" players if they did not commited any crime.(We do not want to get ganked and killed while we go to store or something like that).

That solves problem with people who do not want to PvP, if you do not choose any side, you stay in PvE justice System. Add to that new skill lines and skillpoints similar to what we have in PvP(you rank up you get skillpoint), plus add rewards just like in PvP(it is in game, you do not need to do anything new ZOS).
Give thieves slightly better rewards then the guard players, to balance help from NPC's(guards) in towns and boom, there you go.
For level balance/imbalance allow players to fight only and only in each zone. Let me explain this in other way.
Each zone would have max level for PvP Justice System, just like mobs are, you know, first zone is 1-15lvl and so on.
And then goes up and up(Coldharbour lvl50) then Cadwell's Silver and Gold, uhh you get the point. Wrothgar is scaled so everyone could take part in PvP Justice System, if they choose to do that.

Add to that 3 daily quests for each side and some sort of ranking.
Similar to PvP and weekly but instead of giving others full information let players write notes, something like hints about them and there you go. It is so simple and most of it is in game already.

Let me know if i missed something when it comes to balance/imbalance side and what you think about it.

Edit: I hate PvP, especially in Cyro. But it would be fun to play in cat and mouse in towns

mphtamine

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

PVE have awesome map it could be nice to jump ennemies who follow us over the mount ahah! and kill army of pve boys

Xantaria

I am against Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I am against it because I have 76 million bounty. A bounty I am never going to get rid of. It's almost impossible. Thus I would only vote for a PvP Justice System if it would get resetted at launch.

Tandor

I am against Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I'm against the mixing of PvP and PvE in the same area, and don't wish to see any form of PvP in the open world. More specifically in relation to the Justice System, I am against the application of PvP penalties to PvE crimes in PvE areas. ZOS have made the right decision in my view.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

I am against Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

mphtamine wrote: »

PVE have awesome map it could be nice to jump ennemies who follow us over the mount ahah! and kill army of pve boys

Fortunately you'll never get to do that, so please stay in cyrodiil where you belong.

I_killed_Vivec

The full Justice System sounds like a good idea - make it opt in so that nobody gets caught out by mistake, you can choose to steal, you can chose to kill, but you then face the consequences.

However, the implementation is much more complex, particularly when you consider battle-levelling. A level 10 in their starter zone becoming prey to a VR16 if they are caught stealing... how does that work? It would be incredibly difficult to scale two parties just for the purposes of the Justice PvP.

Then, more cynically, there's the issue of DLC. ZoS want to make money, Justice PvP won't make any, Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood DLC will. Both of these will involve "wrong-doings", but there will be people who want to play them without having to opt in to the wider Justice PvP. In order to sell DLC ZoS will not want to put off people from buying it by forcing them into PvP.

Yes, there might be ways to make it all possible, but as I said, it would be incredibly complex and not make ZoS much money.

Besides, imagine the grief...

"NBs OP in Justice System"...

"Thieves shouldn't be allowed to use WB, can't go stealing with a six foot broadsword in your pocket!"

Iluvrien

I am against Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

I haven't played a game where there is a PvP Justice system, but I have played ones where I have taken part in Justice type situations in wPvP enabled systems. Including this in the voting options is an appeal to authority: "You only get your views on the subject taken seriously if you have done it in the past and haven't liked it". No. Just no.

Your response to the person who didn't want to see PvP going on was also lacking. "Come on dude" isn't a reasoned response. It isn't playing devil's advocate. It is dismissing the concern of another player based on your own bias. The same goes for not having heard "a single reason that has convinced" you. There have been plenty of reasons given since launch. I suspect the issue is that you dismiss them based on your desire for this system, rather than that they are actually bad, or even unconvincing, arguments.

And, for the record, the reason I am glad that this isn't being implemented is because I don't want to see it. Ever. This game was launched without wPvP. If they are going to introduce it then they are going to need to make a much stronger argument than anyone has done before I will accept how this will impact on my own play time. The current version of the justice system already does, sometimes when I am in a bank, the entire environment explodes as some hapless idiot takes on the guards in there. You think that contributes to my ability to critically consider what I should/shouldn't keep... or how best to fulfill a crafting order? Do you honestly believe that this will occur less if the PvP part of the justice system is implemented?

Quite simply, unless someone can promise that all Justice flagged players would be phased out of my sight, I am going to be against this... and remain against it.

"Come on dude" is about as justifiable an argument as, "it didn't have it before so I don't want it" or "it might distract me"!

No, it isn't. "Come on dude" is an exclamation that contains no factual content.

"it didn't have it before so I don't want it" is related to the idea that you bought a product with certain expectations based on preview material, interviews, etc. world PvP was not one of those things. I suggested that they would need a better argument, or certain conditions, in place before being happy for them to make yet another fundamental alteration to the game.

"it might distract me" wasn't what I said. I said "the current level of justice content does distract me". This is one the reasons I argued against it when they started talking about it. My view hasn't changed. I asked the OP if he expected the added wPvP elements to decrease that possibility. Still waiting for my answer.

So no, the statements aren't equivalent. One was an exclamation that added nothing to the discussion but the OP's incredulity... the latter two actually contained the basis of an argument. You really still think that they are similarly justifiable? Or do you want to take another run up at that?

anitajoneb17_ESO

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Xantaria wrote: »

I am against it because I have 76 million bounty. A bounty I am never going to get rid of. It's almost impossible. Thus I would only vote for a PvP Justice System if it would get resetted at launch.

How do you "live" with that ? You never ever go to town and never use a guild bank (with that character ?). I wonder wonder how it's possible to reach such a high bounty...

Alucardo

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Sounded like a lot of fun to me. I didn't comment much about it before because, as you say, we didn't know much about it. I have no doubt it would have been a flagged thing to make it possible for people to opt-out, and I'd expect it to be that way.
I've spoken to some PVErs, and they said it sounded quite fun to watch people battling around towns and outside them to try and collect bounties.
When I initially heard about it I got excited, like wow, ZOS really do care and think about the PVP community, then they took it away. Disappointing.

"Too difficult to make fun". Come on Zenimax, what the hell guys. A PVP justice system sounds incredibly fun. Please think about adding it.

Tandor

I am against Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Lefty_Lucy wrote: »

It is also my opinion that no one would be forced to PvP if this system was implemented!

They would if they wanted to participate fully in the PvE elements of the Justice System in the PvE part of the world.

One of the weakest arguments put forward by those supporting the Enforcement system was that non-PvPers could opt out of it. Why should PvEers be expected to opt out of PvE content in PvE areas (possibly including having to opt out of the Thieves Guild DLC as well if that was tied into the Justice System) just to allow the introduction of open world PvP masquerading as a Justice System? It made no sense, and I'm glad ZOS have recognised that.

Alucardo

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Tandor wrote: »

One of the weakest arguments put forward by those supporting the Enforcement system was that non-PvPers could opt out of it. Why should PvEers be expected to opt out of PvE content in PvE areas (possibly including having to opt out of the Thieves Guild DLC as well if that was tied into the Justice System) just to allow the introduction of open world PvP masquerading as a Justice System? It made no sense, and I'm glad ZOS have recognised that.

It would be turned off by default. There'd be no need to opt-out because you'd most likely have to opt-in for this kind of thing. Nothing would change from a PVE perspective. However, if you're a PVPer, just flick that switch and come at me bro

Daraugh

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Two reasons, first just because it sounded like fun and would make the world more lively. The second was that it would help take some of the pressure off of Cyrodiil by spreading out more of the pvpers across all zones.

My assumptions, purely my own assumptions, was that it would only ever be an opt-in system.

kenpachi480

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I looked forward to PVP element justice system,. shame they cancel it,.


geuss people rather steal and kill with immortel guards,. shame for the RPr among us

some serious justice could have been dealt

AzraelKrieg

I will withhold voting in the poll for my response. I was hyped for it. It seemed like an interesting concept and could have been a lot of fun. In saying that though, you can't have this type of system in a game where the class balance is so completely skewed and levels are a thing. It's just not possible. A level 15 with a bounty on their head might end being facerolled by a vet15 looking for some easy gold. A nightblade can just cloak and run while a DK will chain you and then Talons you to death. The way the game is now the "Enforcer" portion of the Justice System can't be even considered. ZOS needs to fix the balancing issues before they implement something of this magnitude.

SirCritical

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

There was a game in the past, where was a quite cool implemented open world PvP system: Archlord. In this game you were allowed to attack other Player Characters out of the towns, but if you did this, you were flagged, and you were freely attackable by other PCs. I don't have to explain how this "flagged status" made questing hard These criminals could feel themselves safe in towns, where PvP was only allowed through dueling or GvG.

This system - with the obvious modifications - could be implemeted here also. There would be 2 "factions": the criminals who can pickpocket PCs, and pickpocket and assassinate NPCs.

If caught while pickpocketing PCs/NPCs, or attacking innocents, gets a bounty in the same way like now (and the bounty status should be seen for anyone), and can be attacked by the PCs only out of towns, without getting any bounty (enforcer-system). In this way we can avoid spell- and skillfests in the towns.

Those, who attack criminals and win the battle, receive the bounty from some terminals (like the quests in Cyrodiil). This could bring the system some danger for the those, who picked thievery as their way of playing, and some earnable reward for the enforcers.

For helping enforcers, when they engage in fight with criminals, the criminal automatically gets a fear-debuff like the NB ability, and after that will he able to activate his skills in the battle.

And I could guve more details of this system, these were only some quickly written thoughts

mr_wazzabi

JMadFour wrote: »

when I want to PVP, I go to Cyrodiil. in Cyrodiil I find PVPers, who are there for the same reason(s) I am. to beat each other up and take Keeps.

when I want to do PVE, I go to PVE zones. in PVE zones, I find PVErs, who are there for the same reason(s) I am. to quest, and run dungeons/delves.

PVP and PVE don't mix. I prefer to keep them seperate. I'm glad ZOS decided to continue to keep PVE and PVP seperated, instead of trying to mix it, like they tried to do with Imperial City.

I think as far as Justice System PVP goes, the multiple potential problems outweigh the one potential benefit.

This. Imperial City is more annoying than entertaining. It was a huge failure.

petraeus1

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

@sircritical that sounds like a cool concept. Almost more like a PvP bounty system than real law enforcement inside cities. I'd imagine the captain of the guard in a city could give out quests to look for players in the zone who have a bounty on their head, some sort of weird hunt. XD

@Azraelkrieg, this could be solved by having a flagging system, by only implementing justice pvp in zones where there is battle-leveling, or other ways. I don't see why people would want a 'fair' system in this sense: I loved the thought of emerging gameplay and assymmetry where 5 thieves could take out an Enforcer before nicking the jackpot, or the other way around. That's what seemed so appealing.

RinaldoGandolphi

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

It all comes down to this...Money.

As it stands right now, ZOS is not going to add new features to the game unless you can only get those features with a DLC. Adding in a PVP Justice System would have to apply to the entire game which means ZOS would have to put it in a reg update and not a DLC thus they realized this wouldn't work so they scraped the plans.

As much as im bummed about it, i understand ZOS needs to make money, I just wish they were more transparent about it.

However, you won't see new stuff in the game unless it can be sold in the cash shop of a DLC, getting new features in patches is now gone thanks to the removal of the sub fee were stuck with this now, if we were still paying subs we would have got the Justice System and a lot more stuff, but right now the cash shop and DLC is the primary revenue source and they are not going to release things they can't sell.

petraeus1

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

It all comes down to this...Money.

As it stands right now, ZOS is not going to add new features to the game unless you can only get those features with a DLC. Adding in a PVP Justice System would have to apply to the entire game which means ZOS would have to put it in a reg update and not a DLC thus they realized this wouldn't work so they scraped the plans.

...

Why? Why can't they add another PvP DLC down the line? They did IC, and sure, many people don't like it in its current state, but I can completely imagine a zone in which Justice PvP was a thing, without it affecting vanilla ESO. I heard all Markarth's and Solitude's guards died fighting off Dark Anchors, and an influx of Imperial deserters, organized under the name 'Ooh, shiny', is harassing those cities stealing valuables and murdering travelers. BAM. Zone: PvE content, Justice system, only difference: here there are player guards. Battle-leveling, intelligent zone design, flagging system if you will.

The only reason this won't be done, is if they reckon a normal PvE DLC would be more popular. Maybe. I think it's great to have something different. Only appealing to the masses makes for a potentially bland MMO. But hey, who am I? I don't know.