Valkyn Skoria set: its very different proc rate before and after the IC release

heystreethawk

Then, for the very first time, somebody said: thank you for the thread necromancy.

Alcast

ZOS_TFlemming wrote: »

@Joy_Division The reason you are seeing fewer meteors than you are expecting is that Valkyn Skoria was given a 5s internal CD for Imperial City, but the tooltip was not updated to reflect this change. The increases to proc chance and damage for Valkyn Skoria going in with TG were balanced with the 5s internal CD in mind and we will also be updating the tooltip to clarify that the effect has a CD.

5s? why lol? what the......

Joy_Division

ZOS_TFlemming wrote: »

@Joy_Division The reason you are seeing fewer meteors than you are expecting is that Valkyn Skoria was given a 5s internal CD for Imperial City, but the tooltip was not updated to reflect this change. The increases to proc chance and damage for Valkyn Skoria going in with TG were balanced with the 5s internal CD in mind and we will also be updating the tooltip to clarify that the effect has a CD.

Thank you for investigating this and getting back to me.

I believe that you added a 5 second cooldown. However, that does not exclude the likelihood that something else was unintentionally altered and bugged this set.

I would direct your attention to these three screenshots:



That's 123 seconds. A five second cooldown does not account for the fact that all these DoTs accounted for what was at most one proc.



That's my DK, the class that's supposed to be suited for this set. Where are my procs?



Here is a build using nothing but abilities designed to proc the set and 169 DPS! On the bottom of the list, below structured entropy.

There screenshots strongly suggest there is something wrong with how the set checks for procs rather than the rate being too low or undermined by a 5 second cooldown. I have not tested the set on TG because I have no intention of using it, so I cannot say if this issue is still present. Maybe it was fixed. But if it wasn't, there is going to be some serious cases of buyer's remorse for people who drop a quarter-million AP for this.

Thavie

but the tooltip was not updated to reflect this change

When this "we changed things ages ago, but forgot to tell you about this" stops already?

Hears-Ghosts

From what I have heard (haven't done any real scientific tests myself) is that that this set is bugged, and will only proc off of pure damage-over-time abilities. Meaning if an ability has any non-damage-over-time damage along with a DOT, the ability will just see the upfront damage and not allow the set to proc. off of the DOT.

Example: The NB ability Cripple and the morph Debilitate will proc Skoria, but because the other morph Crippling Grasp also has additional damage that is not considered a DOT the game wont consider the DOT damage as a DOT ether not allowing the set to proc..

Update: I have run a test ON THE PTS (Update 2.3.3) by only casting Crippling Grasp multiple times on the Wayrest Sewers boss Slimecraw (228 ticks in 5min and 20 sec. causing Skoria to proc. 12 times.) and have disproved the above information. This may not reflect the LIVE SERVER (Update 2.2.11) as I do not have the set yet this, also may not reflect other abilities as I only tested Crippling Grasp. I am still testing the information below.

Also one thing I might add is that because of the same bug the set Nerien'eth will proc. off of the DOTs that have an additional non-damage-over-time damage effect.

Example: Nerien'eth can proc off of each tick of Crippling Grasp. (I have personally seen this happen on the PTS.)

Glory

ZOS_TFlemming wrote: »

@Joy_Division The reason you are seeing fewer meteors than you are expecting is that Valkyn Skoria was given a 5s internal CD for Imperial City, but the tooltip was not updated to reflect this change. The increases to proc chance and damage for Valkyn Skoria going in with TG were balanced with the 5s internal CD in mind and we will also be updating the tooltip to clarify that the effect has a CD.

Good to know. Can you guys work on letting us see the CD for all tooltips that have them? This would be hugely helpful instead of trial and error!

elium85

Agreed! There are multiple other sets with ICD's that we cannot see which makes testing a pain!

@ZOS_TFlemming

code65536

@ZOS_TFlemming Thank you for replying, but there still seems to be something wrong here.

When the TG PTS was released and I saw that Skoria's chance was buffed up to 6%, I eagerly took my magicka DK in for a Blood Spawn DPS test on the PTS.

I had the whole toolkit of DK DoTs going, and I had zero procs of Skoria on the first test. And just one single Skoria meteor drop on the second test. I gave up at that point.

Maybe it was just really, really, really bad RNG. But in conjunction with what @Joy_Division has been posting, it seems much more likely that there's something fishy going on here. After all, Blood Spawn tests last quite a bit longer than 5 seconds. If the class that is the very epitome of stacking DoTs can't proc Skoria reliably on the TG PTS, then something isn't right.

@Hears-Ghosts's theory does seem plausible, since my DK DoTs all have initial non-DoT damage ticks. That might explain what I see.

PS: There's another post on the PTS forum from another player regarding the strange way in which Skoria procs:

Erraln wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Yea with VS you can have 5 (or however many) DoTs going at once on a target, with each tick of each DoT offering a chance for proc.

Unfortunately, not so much. I've done a few hours of testing Valkyn Skoria on the PTS, and what I found was that stacking dots with the same timer; 1s dots, 2s dots, etc, doesn't help. It only seems to be 'reading' one dot cast per target. This is just fine for a group of mobs, where a player can lay Caltrops or Wall of Elements/Class dots to have a 1s tick chance per target per second. Meteor proc rate in that situation is frequent. Single target, however, not so much.

Because of the apparent 1 dot rule, the absolute worst build to use with VK would be burn-damage DK. All of those timers are going off with similar intervals. Fortunately, the set does seem to read the fastest ticking dot, rather than the first cast or the most recently cast. This makes the best skills to use for pure meteor proc rate Flurry(DW) and Puncturing Strikes(Templar) morphs. Ideal play for the monster set, then, is to use your normal rotation as a Templar with Jabs/Sweep as your main offense. The meteor rate is decent for this build, and also conveniently fills the hole that Nerien'eth leaves for an effective set choice for the class.

Of course, thematically this is all wrong. The monster set with the clearest 'use dots' tooltip works best with a class skill which presents itself as direct-damage. I'm unsure what to suggest for an adjustment, as I don't know if they've ever stated why it was changed from the pre-IC behavior.

zerosingularity

Looks like all Skills need a pass to determine if they are considered DoTs, Burst, or Hybrid. It seems like all the good monster sets are bugged, and it is likely mostly because of the Hybrid DoT/Burst skills. Nerineth proccing when it shouldn't, Valkyn not proccing when it should, and Molag Kena proccing without needing 2 CONSECUTIVE Light Attacks.

As a further test, can anyone get Skoria to proc with any of the hybrid skills at all? (We know it procs off pure DoTs like entropy.) Might help narrow down the issue with more certainty.


Might also help if the Devs posted a list of every skill we have and labeled whether they were Burst, Channeled, DoT, or Hybrid, or any crossover of these. That way we can aid them better in debugging items and skills.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

zerosingularity wrote: »

Looks like all Skills need a pass to determine if they are considered DoTs, Burst, or Hybrid. It seems like all the good monster sets are bugged, and it is likely mostly because of the Hybrid DoT/Burst skills. Nerineth proccing when it shouldn't, Valkyn not proccing when it should, and Molag Kena proccing without needing 2 CONSECUTIVE Light Attacks.

As a further test, can anyone get Skoria to proc with any of the hybrid skills at all? (We know it procs off pure DoTs like entropy.) Might help narrow down the issue with more certainty.


Might also help if the Devs posted a list of every skill we have and labeled whether they were Burst, Channeled, DoT, or Hybrid, or any crossover of these. That way we can aid them better in debugging items and skills.

fyi channels that do damage are dots.

D0ntevenL1ft

ZOS_TFlemming wrote: »

@Joy_Division The reason you are seeing fewer meteors than you are expecting is that Valkyn Skoria was given a 5s internal CD for Imperial City, but the tooltip was not updated to reflect this change. The increases to proc chance and damage for Valkyn Skoria going in with TG were balanced with the 5s internal CD in mind and we will also be updating the tooltip to clarify that the effect has a CD.

This type of customer communication would not be acceptable in any other circumstance, yet things like this happen weekly. Completely alter something and tell no one until months later? Business model of ZOS that somehow people continuously accept.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO

ZOS_TFlemming wrote: »

@Joy_Division The reason you are seeing fewer meteors than you are expecting is that Valkyn Skoria was given a 5s internal CD for Imperial City, but the tooltip was not updated to reflect this change. The increases to proc chance and damage for Valkyn Skoria going in with TG were balanced with the 5s internal CD in mind and we will also be updating the tooltip to clarify that the effect has a CD.

Reading the posts between your post and mine, as well as own testing, clearly shows that a 5s cooldown is not the issue here. Instead of just updating the tooltip and calling it a day, could you maybe look into the issues that are discussed in this thread?

@ZOS_TFlemming @ZOS_GinaBruno

Love_Chunks

Wait wait wait. Wasnt a cool down added way before 1.6 dropped? If i remember correctly, a global six second cool down was added back then becuase it was procing multiple times on multiple NPCs, making it super OP. It was still powerful and proced enough to be top dps gear.

Paulington

So @ZOS_TFlemming, what is the specific reason we couldn't have this on the tooltip:

(2 items) 4% chance when damaging an enemy with a damage over time effect to call a meteor dealing <x> Flame Damage to target and <y> Flame Damage to other nearby enemies. (5 second cooldown).

The whole internal cooldown thing being unknown can be a real issue on every set in the game and having it listed would really help out.

asneakybanana

ZOS_TFlemming wrote: »

@Joy_Division The reason you are seeing fewer meteors than you are expecting is that Valkyn Skoria was given a 5s internal CD for Imperial City, but the tooltip was not updated to reflect this change. The increases to proc chance and damage for Valkyn Skoria going in with TG were balanced with the 5s internal CD in mind and we will also be updating the tooltip to clarify that the effect has a CD.

It still isn't proccing as much as before in 1.6. I tested it over 8 minutes on the first boss of maw and close to 4k dot ticks and I think I got somewhere around 68 dot ticks which might have been less due to aoe. In order to make this set competitive with things like nerieneth and kena it either needs to store procs that occur during the 5s CD so it instantly procs when that cooldown is up or boost the damage by more than what you did giving it maybe the same tooltip as nerieneth.

Frenkthevile

When you use TP on someone, sometimes your set abilities bug themselves. I found this by using Engine guardian because you NEVER see the little dwemer when it bugs in a dungeon (i.e.).
So, just equip/unequip at least 1 item of each set when you use tp...and MAGIC: it works!

Hears-Ghosts

Hears-Ghosts wrote: »

From what I have heard (haven't done any real scientific tests myself) is that that this set is bugged, and will only proc off of pure damage-over-time abilities. Meaning if an ability has any non-damage-over-time damage along with a DOT, the ability will just see the upfront damage and not allow the set to proc. off of the DOT.

Example: The NB ability Cripple and the morph Debilitate will proc Skoria, but because the other morph Crippling Grasp also has additional damage that is not considered a DOT the game wont consider the DOT damage as a DOT ether not allowing the set to proc..

Update: I have run a test ON THE PTS (Update 2.3.3) by only casting Crippling Grasp multiple times on the Wayrest Sewers boss Slimecraw (228 ticks in 5min and 20 sec. causing Skoria to proc. 12 times.) and have disproved the above information. This may not reflect the LIVE SERVER (Update 2.2.11) as I do not have the set yet this, also may not reflect other abilities as I only tested Crippling Grasp. I am still testing the information below.

Also one thing I might add is that because of the same bug the set Nerien'eth will proc. off of the DOTs that have an additional non-damage-over-time damage effect.

Example: Nerien'eth can proc off of each tick of Crippling Grasp. (I have personally seen this happen on the PTS.)

Joy_Division

******UPDATE******

My tests with this set against mammoths on the PTS in 35 second fights suggest the bug may no longer exist. They might not have intentionally fixed it, however perhaps with the changing of the proc rate to 6% did something to make the set function as before the IC. In these 35 seconds fights with 5-6 DoTs, I was getting 3-4 procs, which was about the same rate as before the IC.

If I find this set worthy DPS, which I still doubt because Kena and Mephala look to me better options ATM, I will do a bit more extensive testing.

actosh

ZOS_TFlemming wrote: »

@Joy_Division The reason you are seeing fewer meteors than you are expecting is that Valkyn Skoria was given a 5s internal CD for Imperial City, but the tooltip was not updated to reflect this change. The increases to proc chance and damage for Valkyn Skoria going in with TG were balanced with the 5s internal CD in mind and we will also be updating the tooltip to clarify that the effect has a CD.

With all respect in Mind, but maybe ZOS should reconsider to update nearly all tooltips and recheck if stuff is really working as intended. You tell us that u know this since IC Release and didnt mentioned it in the Patch Notes, nor could u update the tooltip with a basic incremental patch????

Really, come on, u leavy armorpenbug for over a year in the game and know about it, and do nothing, ok basicly it took someone at zos over a year to get this fixed. Sry to be harsh in this regard, but while we all are aware that a mmo has a complex system behind it, this is not really acceptable.

actosh

actosh wrote: »

ZOS_TFlemming wrote: »

@Joy_Division The reason you are seeing fewer meteors than you are expecting is that Valkyn Skoria was given a 5s internal CD for Imperial City, but the tooltip was not updated to reflect this change. The increases to proc chance and damage for Valkyn Skoria going in with TG were balanced with the 5s internal CD in mind and we will also be updating the tooltip to clarify that the effect has a CD.

With all respect in Mind, but maybe ZOS should reconsider to update nearly all tooltips and recheck if stuff is really working as intended. You tell us that u know this since IC Release and didnt mentioned it in the Patch Notes, nor could u update the tooltip with a basic incremental patch???? Does the Combatteam have no time to add this stupid 1liner to the Item?

Really, come on, u leavy armorpenbug for over a year in the game and know about it, and do nothing, ok basicly it took someone at zos over a year to get this fixed. Sry to be harsh in this regard, but while we all are aware that a mmo has a complex system behind it, this is not really acceptable.

elium85

@Joy_Division

If I may ask, what's the tooltip VR16 Legendary on the set now on PTS? I'm on console and cannot get onto PTS to check.

Thanks!

WatchYourSixx

Adding in a couple of PTS parses to show how Skoria is fairing. If we assume the 5s internal cooldown means only half the dots applied have a chance to proc skoria, and in this parse I have there are 450 dots... We get a 5.3% chance of it proccing. Heres the parse, and some more notes about it.



As you can see in this photo, skoria did 1k dps over 2:32. It procced 12 times, so roughly once every ~8 seconds. Given my poor RNG, it only critted 50% of the time for this particular test, but you can see that it hit almost 18k on crits, and did an average of 13k damage per. I have 65% spell crit. 100 points into elemental expert. Skoria/julianos/willpower template gear, maelstrom staff.



This parse shows the Neirenith set. Comparing it to Skoria, it procced roughly the same rate, but with less damage even though it critted more. This is for just DK dps though, as Neirenith procs only off of non-dots. My point in this parse is that Skoria is actually better for DK's in Thieves guild update.

So to conclude; With the knowledge of the internal cooldown, we see that Skoria procs roughly at the rate it should be. Although one could argue it should proc more than once every 8 seconds if you have 10 dots running in those 3 seconds the cooldown isnt there... It is ONLY a 6% chance, so mathematically that seems about right. I think with Thieves guild, Skoria will be best for DK in 4man content, while kena will still be superior in trials, where magicka regen is not an issue with orbs. This gives some flexability, and returns the awesome look of Skoria!

DK's rejoice!

elium85

@WatchYourSixx Unless I'm missing something, didn't it proc every 12-13 seconds not 8?

152 Seconds / 12 Procs = 12.6667 Seconds

Howl

That's great news if it is fixed as I love the sound and visuals of Skoria and it fits the theme of magicka DKs.

While we are on the subject of internal cooldowns, Trinimac is at least 10 seconds, not 5 as in the tooltip. It's very easily tested with Igneous Shield at a bank.

WatchYourSixx

Ahh yes I did it backwards, would be an 8% chance to proc every second, as I did procs/seconds. That would mean every ~13 sec you are getting a proc, which means its still not proccing as much as it should. Either way, I've done more tests with it, and it is still the better choice for mag DK.

@ZOS_TFlemming Is it working as intended to proc roughly once every 13 seconds? I will post a much longer fight to provide a better grasp of how its performing.

WatchYourSixx

Here is my longer test. 8:44. These numbers even out closer to 10 sec per skoria proc. Though I am kinda disappointed my crits with skoria did not increase. It stayed at 54%, roughly 10% less crit than expected, out of 50 hits. Thats a significant difference. Same with standard's procs too. I'm not sure if that is a bug or if its just bad rng.

Thoughts?

Edit: @elium85 Just read tooltip of Skoria, it does NOT reflect the post about adding the 5 sec cd to the tooltip. It still says the regular tooltip as of 2.2.3.

Deltia

@Joy_Division keep digging up these bugs/nerfs man, you killing it with info. #numbersdontlie

Alcast

Instant

Alcast wrote: »

Actual Valkyn proc has to be lower than the supposed 6% due to the 5s cooldown.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO

Alcast wrote: »

It would be a 6 meteors out of 100 dot ticks proc rate only if there was no internal cooldown. It's proc - wait 5s - 6% chance to procc again - wait 5s - and so on. Seems to be about right, or am I missing something?

But it shows that the damage is kinda low...