Valkyn Skoria set: its very different proc rate before and after the IC release

Joy_Division

****Thieves Guild Upstate****

The set seems to be working correctly now. I use it regularly and its performance roughly matches what happened before the IC patch launched and bugged it.

Original Post

Just a theory, but one that fits my observations

Patch Notes 2.0.3 on March 30: "Fixed an issue with the Valkyn Skoria set where it was unintentionally proccing multiple casts of Meteor within a single global cooldown. This was particularly noticable in Cyrodiil."

I'm pretty sure they bugged or intentionally nerfed this when trying to restrict the number of procs.

I believe the set was working correctly before the IC patch. Here are some screen shots taken after the nerf but before the IC. They reveal very consistent performances:


April 15: Proc every 9.5 seconds. 946 DPS


April 20: Proc every 10.1 seconds. 913 DPS


June 6: Proc every 9.1 seconds. 1098 DPS.


June 9: Proc every 6.8 seconds. 1370 DPS.


June 23: Proc every 10.8 seconds. 1133 DPS


June 24: Proc every 10.2 seconds. 1059 DPS


Bank it: every 10 seconds it procs and it's worth roughly 1000 DPS for my build.

Then the IC patch on August 30 came and ZoS claimed to reduce the damage by 25%. They did more than this. Something was wrong. Here are my post IC parses, with basically the same build, consistently revealing something very different than the claimed 25% nerf to damage:


September 10: Proc every 14 seconds. 515 DPS


September 13: Proc every 19.8 seconds. 352 DPS


September 20: Proc ever 39 seconds. 233 DPS.


September 30: No procs for 69 seconds. 0 DPS. (It's possible there was one proc for under 9000 damage).


October 3 [Templar build]: No procs for 123 seconds. 0 DPS. (There is 67772 damage uncounted for. Most of that is from my light attacks and blazing spear ground DoTs. It's possible there was one proc).

At this point, I had my Lich Crystal and Molag Kena options, so decided to discard Valkyn and be done with it. Then, thinking about doing Malestrom on my DK, decided to give it one more test just to make sure:


December 12: Procs every 41.3 seconds. DPS too low to register. (I looked through my combat log and found the individual procs such as this one here):



If all ZoS did was reduce the damage by 25% as they claimed to have done, then we should still see the same proc rate and a DPS around 750. That's not happening. So what did they do?

I think ZoS changed how the set checks for procs. Before the IC patch, I *think* the game checked every single DoT you put down on every target. Now, I only think it makes a single binary check. That is, it does a simple yes/no calculation to see if you have a DoT active, rather than actually caring how many you have. So if you had 20 DoTs on a multiple targets, it does not matter: you get a 4% chance to proc a meteor on the first target you registered a DoT on.

I believe this to be the case because my first simple tests revealed nothing was wrong with it. I got normal results like this:


But when I started putting multiple DoTs up, I'd get either no procs or a much lower rate:




It's only a theory, but it is consistent with ZoS's recent efforts at trying to streamline calculations. We have seen them reduce the number of ticks on certain abilities and the eligible targets for those ticks (without regard for the benefit of those ticks, incidentally).

Whatever they did, the set is utterly noncompetitive. If only Zenimax put half the thought and effort into gettting rid of AoE caps and the stupid zergblobs that are enabled by them as they did in removing deer and nerfing "reward" sets, maybe we'd see more diverse builds that didn't just stack spell damage and blob into a ball.

******Update:*******

Dedicated a run through Maelstrom Arena with this frustrating/bugged/nerfed thing and anyone who claims they are getting good results from simply has not paid attention to their parses before the IC release.

Here is a typical example of what Valkyn set will grant you:



169 DPS! On the bottom of the list, below structured entropy. This is a build that uses nothing but abilities dedicated to procing it.

After round 6 I got tired of wasting my time and dying so I took the set off. But I do have some interesting data for comparison with respect to the Nerieneth Lich set.

On my Sorcerer, who wore the Lich set and used skills that do not proc it (indeed my highest damaging ability was lightning flood), this is what I had after completing Round 6:

21,042,718 total damage. 1,787,114 damage from the Lich set. 8.5% of all damage.

On my Templar, who wore the Valkyn set and only used skill that could proc it, this is what I had after completing Round 6:

24,275,733 total damage. 516,464 damage from Valkyn. 2.1% of all damage.

So, wearing Valkyn will get you killed more (the more damage was from having to redo rounds after dying) and works far less effectively even if you dedicate your build around it when compared to another monster set that does not require such customization.



,

Derra

One of the cases where nobody was asking for a nerf in the first place but it gets nerfed bc it deviates from the average in some internal metrics and as a result gets completely destroyed in terms of usability.

Glory

Impressively informative post Joy/Xanadu. I would take any other iteration of this set than the current, as it is so utterly terrible.

An interesting theory on the proc chance change, might be worth looking into a controlled environment to see if the stacking of DoTs (or lack of proc chance) is actually what's happening.

Like @Derra said as well, can't have any interesting sets because it might not match up with the metrics.

"FOR THE GREATER GOOD"

Joy_Division

Just looking through my these old posts made me sad of the memories of the times I raided when I genuinely cared about maintaining a high DPS, trial completion times, and weekly leader-boards.

Sometimes I wonder if ZoS realizes just how great this game could be. Imagine a game with interesting and competitive different gear sets, legitimate end-game raids, rebalancing done more often than once a year, PvP with no AoE caps and more cyrodiil objectives ...

Alcast

sb wrote a forum thread on that valkyn thingie, it is bugged atm but cant remember how tho.

Tried it also once and i got approx 350 dps over 2,5min lul

Glory

Joy_Division wrote: »

Just looking through my these old posts made me sad of the memories of the times I raided when I genuinely cared about maintaining a high DPS, trial completion times, and weekly leader-boards.

Sometimes I wonder if ZoS realizes just how great this game could be. Imagine a game with interesting and competitive different gear sets, legitimate end-game raids, rebalancing done more often than once a year, PvP with no AoE caps and more cyrodiil objectives ...

From my (personal) observations, they're currently devoting their efforts and catering to the casual crowd (solo PvE, dyes, achievements, "cool" looking gear"). I guess this is what's currently getting them ca$h.

I will say, however, that it is not these casual players that keep a game alive in most cases. It is a dedicated, enthusiastic PvP and/or group/raid PvE crowd that maintain subs and stick around for the long haul. There are many games that have decided to focus on this concept, and i hope ZOS will come to their senses and do the same.

Ishammael

ebethke_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Just looking through my these old posts made me sad of the memories of the times I raided when I genuinely cared about maintaining a high DPS, trial completion times, and weekly leader-boards.

Sometimes I wonder if ZoS realizes just how great this game could be. Imagine a game with interesting and competitive different gear sets, legitimate end-game raids, rebalancing done more often than once a year, PvP with no AoE caps and more cyrodiil objectives ...

From my (personal) observations, they're currently devoting their efforts and catering to the casual crowd (solo PvE, dyes, achievements, "cool" looking gear"). I guess this is what's currently getting them ca$h.

I will say, however, that it is not these casual players that keep a game alive in most cases. It is a dedicated, enthusiastic PvP and/or group/raid PvE crowd that maintain subs and stick around for the long haul. There are many games that have decided to focus on this concept, and i hope ZOS will come to their senses and do the same.

The PvE raid scene is gone. They left a year ago. Which is why they cater to the "casual" crowd, as you say. This is the group they make money on.

I actually think that the PvP crowd is the only group of dedicated players left. Not sure if ZoS realizes this. This is the group they make zero money on because all of the *** in the crown store is exactly that, ***.

Tomato

This is how they fixed the PvP lag. We do not experience lag anymore because of this..........................

DDemon

Tomato wrote: »

This is how they fixed the PvP lag. We do not experience lag anymore because of this..........................

Are you sure you are playing ESO?

Waffennacht

I think OP is right with his theory. Many moves that use to proc on DoTs (etc) now no longer do so, or if they do, at a far lower rate.

Poor monster set

Reverb

Yep, I was certain this was true, and put both pieces in the bank. Thanks for putting it together, it's nice to see my hunch validated. It was one more nail in the coffin of my dot DK build.

Sharkano

The set used to be tons of fun on my dk, now it's useless. And by the way that can be said of a whole lot of sets in the history of this game. They love to nerf stuff to death.

PainfulFAFA

too bad nothing will get fixed until 6+ months after they come back on Jan 4 lul

Tomato

DDemon wrote: »

Tomato wrote: »

This is how they fixed the PvP lag. We do not experience lag anymore because of this..........................

Are you sure you are playing ESO?

I'm just trying to be clueless like ZOS

DRXHarbinger

It's only procs on one add per AOE and the first one. Lay down liquid lightening for instance and the first add will get a meteor. No others will ever. Same for caltrops dump them out and only one person / add will ever get hit by the meteor since IC, you used to hit so many comets pvp was hilarious when you chucked them out during a siege and the inner doors had just been taken down. Pure AP farming at its best. Hence the nerf. People made too good progress.

Shader_Shibes

Man i miss the days of raining meteors on my dk, sad times, sad times indeed

Joy_Division

Updated OP. Some Maelstrom data and a comparison with the Nerieneth Lich set.

Shader_Shibes

Joy_Division wrote: »

Updated OP. Some Maelstrom data and a comparison with the Nerieneth Lich set.

Wow. Could you do a test with the Maw set? Be interesting to see how they compare xD Maybe Maw will beat Skoria O_o

Joy_Division

Shader_Shibes wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Updated OP. Some Maelstrom data and a comparison with the Nerieneth Lich set.

Wow. Could you do a test with the Maw set? Be interesting to see how they compare xD Maybe Maw will beat Skoria O_o

Actually not a bad idea! When I do Malestrom next week, I'll use that set and get a comparison.

Shader_Shibes

Joy_Division wrote: »

Shader_Shibes wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Updated OP. Some Maelstrom data and a comparison with the Nerieneth Lich set.

Wow. Could you do a test with the Maw set? Be interesting to see how they compare xD Maybe Maw will beat Skoria O_o

Actually not a bad idea! When I do Malestrom next week, I'll use that set and get a comparison.

Hahah, i'll look forward to that! Be a tragedy if Maw out dps'd Skoria xD

Joy_Division

K, I ran the Maw of Infernal set and ... it was PAINFULLY bad. Really felt the sting of a lower DPS and died so often because I was not able to take out mobs in a timely manner.

Here are some comparisons up to and including the Spider Boss on round 6 (I took off the other helms afterwards because I got tired of dying from the pisspoor performance):

Sorcerer with Lich set and used skills that do not proc it:

21,042,718 total damage. 1,787,114 damage from the Lich set. 8.5% of all damage.

Templar with Valkyn only used skills that could proc it:

24,275,733 total damage. 516,464 damage from Valkyn. 2.1% of all damage.

Sorcerer with Maw set:

29,079,499 total damage (I died a lot!). 636,028 damage for Maw. 2.2% of all damage.

So, yep, Valkyn was "beat" out by Maw, a terrible set that was so bad it got me killed like an 15 extra times from my normal gear set up

Shader_Shibes

Dear God, such a shame lol, but thanks for doing this. Valkyn = worst of the worst

blabafat

Yep they ruined it. It was such a good set because it worked on builds that you wouldn't expect use DoTs.

I miss my Update 2.0 Valkyn Skoria

Rest in Peace

MrGigglypants

Start a buff thread

code65536

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert Any chance this issue could be looked at? Is the lowered proc rate intentional (if so, why was it not noted in the IC patch notes?), or is it a bug?

Oreyn_Bearclaw

My testing is not as thorough as yours, but I came to a very similar conclusion. Proc rate before IC was about once every 10 seconds. Now i am lucky if it procs once on a minute long fight. I ran a full serpent shortly after the fix with 0 procs in my combat log, and that was on a DK DoT build. I certainly don't use it anymore, but I do miss it. Such a fun set to use. I tried to get an official response on this a while back to see if it was working as intended, but got nothing. Its not that it's no longer BIS for certain builds, its the fact that it is completely useless.

I would love to get back to a place where Nerienth is best passive AoE DPS, VS is best passive Single Target DPS, And Kena is Best Active DPS set, but with the cost of a more complicated rotation and resource cost. Seems like that was the path it was going, and it made good sense.

#BuffSkoria #FixSkoria

Lucky28

Dot builds could really use 1.6 Skoria right now, They have literally nothing going for them

Joy_Division

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

My testing is not as thorough as yours, but I came to a very similar conclusion. Proc rate before IC was about once every 10 seconds. Now i am lucky if it procs once on a minute long fight. I ran a full serpent shortly after the fix with 0 procs in my combat log, and that was on a DK DoT build. I certainly don't use it anymore, but I do miss it. Such a fun set to use. I tried to get an official response on this a while back to see if it was working as intended, but got nothing. Its not that it's no longer BIS for certain builds, its the fact that it is completely useless.

I would love to get back to a place where Nerienth is best passive AoE DPS, VS is best passive Single Target DPS, And Kena is Best Active DPS set, but with the cost of a more complicated rotation and resource cost. Seems like that was the path it was going, and it made good sense.

#BuffSkoria #FixSkoria

I cannot emphasize how much I agree with this sentiment. @Wrobel please do something here.

Naslu

Alcast wrote: »

sb wrote a forum thread on that valkyn thingie, it is bugged atm but cant remember how tho.

Tried it also once and i got approx 350 dps over 2,5min lul

yeah - somebody wrote:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/236644/pls-fix-or-at-least-improve-valkyn-skoria-monster-set#latest

and its still out there ;-)

Oreyn_Bearclaw

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219988/valkyn-skoria-bugged-or-secret-nerf#latest

My old post on the topic. I just got some lovely divines shoulders from a silver key over the weekend. Finally have the perfect max level set. Oh well...

ZOS_TFlemming

@Joy_Division The reason you are seeing fewer meteors than you are expecting is that Valkyn Skoria was given a 5s internal CD for Imperial City, but the tooltip was not updated to reflect this change. The increases to proc chance and damage for Valkyn Skoria going in with TG were balanced with the 5s internal CD in mind and we will also be updating the tooltip to clarify that the effect has a CD.