Should softcaps be added back?

RAGUNAnoOne

I admit I wasn't here for the softcaps age but reading this article by @Deanthecat http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219283/the-root-of-the-problem-a-lack-of-limits/p1 and seeing some older videos that actually show more 2 way battles I agree that this is the best way to balance the game, what do you think?

RAGUNAnoOne

Add softcaps to the whole game (and rebalance content to match)

Please vote on this one the other was submitted by accident before I could add the 3rd option

Turelus

Add softcaps to the whole game (and rebalance content to match)

I personally feel they should come back, there were some negatives to them in the way that it was far too easy to reach caps in multiple areas, however I feel it was a better place when the developers knew what numbers to expect rather than this age of "stack all the damage"

Also Dean is awesome, and he's ours. Wabbajack will never let that crazy cat go!

dsalter

Add softcaps to the whole game (and rebalance content to match)

they need to come back tbh the stat stacking is terrible, tho they need to be higher than the old ones, those were stupidly easy to reach

Emma_Overload

Do not add softcaps back

Soft caps were horrible and made it difficult to create "edge case" builds that pushed the limits of theorycrafting. They were also hell on solo players who didn't have the benefit of group synergies to help them manage resources.

Other evils of soft caps included:

1) Expensive tri-stat potions were REQUIRED to complete some content. Hope you enjoy picking flowers in Coldharbour for six hours a day, because that's what you'll be doing if soft caps come back!

2) Spell Symmetry, one of the dumbest spells in the game, was actually FOTM standard for mages for a long time because of magicka management issues due to - you guessed it - soft caps. Enjoy using a spell that could double as a suicide pill if they bring back soft caps!

TheBull

Do not add softcaps back

I'd quit if they did.

robkrush

Do not add softcaps back

TheBull wrote: »

I'd quit if they did.

Can i have your stuff?

jrkhan

Do not add softcaps back

I think the problem isn't so much that you don't have diminishing marginal returns, so much as there are not really any benefits to running with more health, or with hybrid stats.

The game has an action economy, your stats need to make each action you take to be more effective in some way, or they are a waste.

Let's take an ability like hardened ward.
I'm not saying it shouldn't scale linearly off magika, that should stay.
However, what if it was multiplied by some fraction of your health pool?
In that case, balancing health and magika would make the ability more effective than stacking one or the other.

I think more abilities could benefit from secondary effects - maybe flame whip still scales in damage based on magika, but drains the targets stamina in proportion to your stam pool.


Or maybe make an ability that costs magika, but deals 5% of your current health pool in damage in addition to linear scaling on magika?


I agree, the current stack one stat meta is boring, but reverting to softcaps isn't the way to go.

daemonios

I'm undecided. I definitely hated where sorcs were in the soft caps days. Expensive spells with low damage, everyone using the exact same build and struggling to keep up with other classes, gulping pots left and right... A lot of work would have to go into it before I'm convinced.

Spacemonkey

Add softcaps to the whole game (and rebalance content to match)

Well I remember enjoying the game a LOT more with softcaps, the way I was set up I could reach res and ar double past the soft cap (lets say my lvl soft cap for it was at 1500, i could manage boosting up to 3000). I have no trouble admitting I just didnt move on with the game, I haven't had nearly as much time to play as before 1.6 (still opinions right?)

- overall I feel tanking was a LOT easier. Havent been able to properly tank since - I'm probably doing it wrong - but to me tanking isnt using burst abilities to regen insane amounts of magicka/hp and stam - tanking is not taking that much dmg at the expense of dps and/or heals

Ezareth

Do not add softcaps back

Softcaps were a boring homogenizing bandaid to balance and if they ever come back I wont be around to see them.

Rune_Relic

Do not add softcaps back

Problems for me with balancing.
No tank / heal / dps isolation so people can excel in more than 1 by only stacking 1 resource.
Heal on damage and such skills are prime examples of skills that allow players to bypass role isolation.
Tanking abilities that rely on magicka rather than health so that tanking and DPS can be combined.
Healing abilities that scale off magicka/stamina

For me it will never be possible to isolate tank/dps/heal (and balance them) as long as they share resources.
Hence:

Stamina = stamina dps only
Magicka= magicka dps only
health = tanking only
stamina/magicka/health equality = healing only.

This means you can be stamina dps....but crap heal/tank
This means you can be magicka dps....but crap heal/tank
This means you can be health tank...but crap dps/heal
This means you can be hybrid healer...with mediochre dps/tank

You can of course mix and match by being somewhere between mitigation and damage extremes.

Also...
ZOS doesn't have to go 0% - 100% and doesn't anyway.
You still get magicak/stamina with 0 points invested to stop people gimping themselves and being OP.
There is nothing wrong with having a range limit of 10000-25000
Then using attribute points as a % of those limits.
Here there is a 10,000 base and only 15,000 player adjustable.....

eg. 40 stam / 10 health / 12 magicka
(40 / (40+10+12) * (15000)) + 10000 = 19677
(10 / (40+10+12) * (15000)) + 10000 = 12419
(12 / (40+10+12) * (15000)) + 10000 = 12903
Total = 45000

eg. 30 stam / 30 health / 2 magicka
(30 / (30+30+02) * (15000)) + 10000 = 17258
(30 / (30+30+02) * (15000)) + 10000 = 17258
(02 / (30+30+02) * (15000)) + 10000 = 10483
Total = 45000

eg. 62 stam / 0 health / 0 magicka
(62 / (62+00+00) * (15000)) + 10000 = 25000
(00 / (62+00+00) * (15000)) + 10000 = 10000
(00 / (62+00+00) * (15000)) + 10000 = 10000
Total = 45000

...doesn't mean you cant make only 5000 player adjustable + 13,333 base to reduce the effects of extreme builds.

eg. 62 stam / 0 health / 0 magicka
(62 / (62+00+00) * (5000)) + 13333 = 18333
(00 / (62+00+00) * (5000)) + 13333 = 13333
(00 / (62+00+00) * (5000)) + 13333 = 13333
Total = 45000


[EDIT ..maths is hard lol]

Dubhliam

Add softcaps to the whole game (and rebalance content to match)

dsalter wrote: »

they need to come back tbh the stat stacking is terrible, tho they need to be higher than the old ones, those were stupidly easy to reach

Agree.

Bashev

Add softcaps to the whole game (and rebalance content to match)

90% from Templars and DKs want soft caps back and 90% from Sorcs and NBs do not want them back.

AfkNinja

Add softcaps to the whole game (and rebalance content to match)

Bashev wrote: »

90% from Templars and DKs want soft caps back and 90% from Sorcs and NBs do not want them back.

That's because certain classes gain more benefit from getting to stack only 1 resource......

danno8

The problem with the old softcaps is they were practically hardcaps. You hit the ceiling and suddenly it was 50% less of whatever you added past that amount. They were also too low, with certain class/race combos hitting softcap with practically no investment.

Proper soft caps have a smooth and gradual line that makes it far less obvious when you should or shouldn't move off of a stat and on to another. Proper softcaps allow for diversity while helping to eliminate balance issues like one-shot invisible stealth assassins that ruin peoples day.

I also believe that the removal of softcaps led directly to the nerf of Bolt Escape, blocking and roll dodge, with their "more casts cost more" and "no more regeneration while blocking".

Spearshard

Add softcaps to the whole game (and rebalance content to match)

Maybe not soft caps exactly the way they were before, but a reasonable cap to spell/weapon power to curb the meta of stacking dmg and penetration. Would be nice to be able to look at different sets and thing, "that would be fun" and not be disappointed that you can't because you would fall behind.

AFrostWolf

Add softcaps to the whole game (and rebalance content to match)

Softcaps should come back. However it should be higher than it was before.

mtwiggz

Add softcaps to the whole game (and rebalance content to match)

WTB Softcaps!

Obviously with changes. As with the CP system in its current state you could probably reach the softcap in just about every category.

Jura23

Do not add softcaps back

I think they should properly balance the stats we have so they are all equally useful. Then there will be no need for soft caps.

Basically what jrkhan said.

Kutsuu

Add softcaps to the whole game (and rebalance content to match)

I voted for softcaps, but they need to be considerably higher than they were originally. It was pretty easy before to softcap *everything* which made building characters quite dull. I want to be able to come up with specialized stam/magicka builds, but prevent the extreme stacking of 6k+ damage or 50k+ magicka, etc, that can cause balance issues.

daemonios

Spearshard wrote: »

Maybe not soft caps exactly the way they were before, but a reasonable cap to spell/weapon power to curb the meta of stacking dmg and penetration. Would be nice to be able to look at different sets and thing, "that would be fun" and not be disappointed that you can't because you would fall behind.

What meta of damage+penetration? I'm running my Sorc on a dmg+crit build. There's much more diversity now than when we had soft caps. Maybe some of it comes from better itemisation (IC/WGT/ICP/Wrothgar sets) but I'm sceptical of the benefits of soft caps.

wayfarerx

Add softcaps to the whole game (and rebalance content to match)

I loved making hybrid builds before softcaps were removed, so I would like to see them come back in some form. However I would be happy with any solution that made hybrids viable again.

SirDopey

Do not add softcaps back

Having had played through soft caps definitely prefer it without. Everything felt much the same with soft caps, very little variety. At least now it feels VERY different when I switch from my stam NB or sorc to my magic Templar or DK and results in different play styles. With soft caps what worked for one build worked for all.....

Egonieser

Add softcaps to PvP zones only

Softcaps for PvP, yeah.
Voted this because I really don't care about PvE personally, even getting v16 on 4 chars was done in PvP or PvE inside Cyrodiil (repeatable/delves/IC)

DeanTheCat

Add softcaps to the whole game (and rebalance content to match)

Well, seeing as my previous response on the other thread got deleted, I'll write a summary of it here.

My opinion on the matter is known, as evidenced by that thread that was linked in the OP.

Still, a softer version of softcaps should be reinstated, a 25% DR should be used instead of the old 50%. This would allow for specialisation while still keeping limits on character power.

jrkhan

Do not add softcaps back

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Well, seeing as my previous response on the other thread got deleted, I'll write a summary of it here.

My opinion on the matter is known, as evidenced by that thread that was linked in the OP.

Still, a softer version of softcaps should be reinstated, a 25% DR should be used instead of the old 50%. This would allow for specialisation while still keeping limits on character power.

There are already is a hard cap in place. Once you are at 501 cp, and in all gold v16 gear with gold enchants with appropriate set bonuses, and the appropriate major/minor buffs up.

Adding a soft cap on top of that just covers up how weak health and hybrid builds are.
Your suggestion is to make those things more attractive by making stacking a single thing weaker - I'd prefer that health and hybrid builds just be made intrinsically better.

Again, we already have a hard limit - it's not like things can't be balanced around it.

WreckfulAbandon

Do not add softcaps back

Way more variety of builds when you have the option to stack a certain value... I would much rather not go back to everyone's character sheet having nothing but orange numbers...

For those of you who weren't here for softcaps, the orange numbers denoted "overcharged" or softcapped values and every competent player had pretty much every stat in the orange. Very diverse.

Knootewoot

Add softcaps to the whole game (and rebalance content to match)

For the sake of build diversity, including armors and overall better gameplay. Yes, I do think they should come back.

But I doubt it will ever happen.

Draxys

Add softcaps to the whole game (and rebalance content to match)

This game desperately needs it. And dynamic ultimate that is non crit based like before.

Jura23

Do not add softcaps back

Draxys wrote: »

This game desperately needs it. And dynamic ultimate that is non crit based like before.

I didn't play back then, but I don't understand the request after dynamic ultimate. I think the ultimate is filling quite fast in this game, its not like it takes half hour to charge it. If the dynamic was in place, it would be just too fast in my opinion.