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Templar issues thread
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Khivas_Carrick✭✭✭✭✭Don't argue about DKs here, they need their love too but nowhere near as much as the horribly abused Templars do. That's like saying the guy who was in prison for 25 years for a crime he didn't commit has it as good as the guy who got smacked his parents a little too much but turned out alright.
GTFO here with that nonsense.Bobbity Boop, this game might become poop, but I'll still play because I'm just a pile of goop!2 -
leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Khivas_Carrick wrote: »Don't argue about DKs here, they need their love too but nowhere near as much as the horribly abused Templars do. That's like saying the guy who was in prison for 25 years for a crime he didn't commit has it as good as the guy who got smacked his parents a little too much but turned out alright.
GTFO here with that nonsense.
Magicka templars are basically useless now, at least templars can actually do things and have skills that actualyl do dmg with the best heal in the game.PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...0 -
SneaK✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »
It much more tanky in compare with another "hold your ground" class - templar.leepalmer95 wrote: »
It is more "problematic":Callidus_Est wrote: »Callidus_Est wrote: »
Maybe because that's the purpose of the build? If people can literally kill under one sec, then tough heal/tank builds have right to exist at the same power level of those one shot builds.
As an another example, steel tornado hits around 6k up to 6 people in 10m radius, costs almost nothing and gains stamina for each kill + axe bleeds if caster have it, but there is no heal/shield equivalent to that power level. Only maybe Lingering Ritual but it has 2 sec cast time.
I dont thing adding more powerful defensive options to game will make players "unkillable". No one was unkillable back then when there were no wrecking blows criting for 15k. Everyone was super tanky with shield stacks, perma blocking and impen, immovable spam and all those *** but we still were dying everyday hundreds of times. Even Sheliza the (so called) Unkillable was dying lol.
Think about that for a second, the way everyone kills Templars is by CCing them. If you gave them a MAGICKA immovable, you would not be able to kill them. Every class is powerful, but you need a way to kill them. that's the problem with Sorcs right now, and that would put Templars in the same problem.
1. NBs and sorcs are OP in compare with dks and templars, so does making dks and templars OP will equalize classes?(yes, i prefer to see dks and temps buffed instead of sorcs and nbs nerfed, like rest of forum ask)
2. When dks will be fixed [especially skills like DragonBlood], dks will be on top of food chain again coz people already changed their builds to increase their survivability. With such obvious sustain fixes and promised DD capability buffed, DKs magicka dks will run Cyro again. So templars,if they won't get noticeble defensive mechanics, will be on bottom of food chain again; but now without magicka dks buddies, i.e. same situation that happened after 1.5.
3. Even this suggestion about Eclipse won't make this skill better than Blinding Flashes, and BF were removed not coz it was OP in PvP, but because it was OP in PvE(LOL?). However i agree, ability in Dawn Wrath tree should have some damage output, not to be pure defense, even Searing Light morph of BL prevoiusly had 8m aoe damage in addition to granted defense.
4. Lets be honest, BoL is only thing that keeps templars alive in Cyro, templars invested all resources to buff healing output and forced to play healers in heavy armor. 1 skill for defense is perfect example how terrible current situation with class. I won't mind such things like LoS for BoL to prevent it from abusing but giving other defensive skills. DK' with fixed DragonBlood healing output equal to Templar with Honor the Dead, but unlike templar they have scales, aoe interrupts, aoe damage mitigations(like Choking Talons), so they require to invest much less resources in defense and thats allowing them to be stronger DD than templars. DK who will invest as much resources in defense as templar forced to, will be 5 times tougher than templar.
In the end, obviously ZOS already implemented their changes and our decisions won't make any difference till we try new skills on pts.
People keep saying dk's are more 'tanky' than other classes, im curious how so?
1. They have 2 passives to restore resources. i.e. 2 passives to restore stamina allowing to hold block much-much longer. Templar has only such weird thing like Repentance
2. They have magical wings of fairy dragon called Scales. Imagine that 4 Frags or 4 Lethal Arrows flying toward you and each will hit you for 8k=32k damage in total. And pressing 1magic button making you negate this 32k damage. Even BoL looks pale in compare to this
3. They have best defensive ultimates(Standart apply damage mitigation buff on you, unlike Nova that apply only damage debuff on enemy, zero enemies in Nova=zero effect. Leap grants solid damage shield in addition to high damage and solid CC, Armor making you literally god-mode for 9 sec). Btw i imagine insane damage magicka dks will deal if one morph of Leap will be changed to deal elemental/magical damage.
4. They have aoe root skill(Choking Talons) that doing literally what Empowering Sweep ult doing for templar.
5. They can blockcasting their skills, so they don't need to hold-off block to fight enemy. Unlike templar, who dd skills are mostly channeled.
6. They probably will have back fixed DragonBlood that equal to templar Honor the Dead, i.e. evey dk again will be as good at self-healing as templar.
^^^this is more than enough to be best tanks.
You are saying DKs are better tanks than templars. That does not make them "tanky."
As long as Cyrodiil heavily favors burst damage / maneuverability and Wrobel insists on keeping ultimate tied to a cooldown, magicka DKs will not rule Cyrodiil.
Everything he listed does describe how DK's are tanky.
1. Passives help them block longer than other classes.
2. Scales reflects ranged attacks which means they don't have to break LoS or anything and can just stand there taking damage and dealing it right back. No other class has this.
3. You should check out magma armor, it caps incoming damage. No other class has this.
4. Rooting keeps enemies near them. Sorcs have this with encase.
6. Block casting keeps them alive longer. This works for any class with insta cast abilities but most of the DK's abilities are insta cast.
7. If Dragon Blood gets fixed then it will be comparable to BoL and it's cheaper which would mean they would be able to heal themselves competently without a pocket healer.
All this adds up to better tankiness. He compared much of the DK to Templars because this is a Templar thread and Templars are supposed to be somewhat tanky as well.
Blockcasting? What is this, 1.5? Here's #8 for you: a (magicka) DK actually has to theorycraft and have a specific build to attain the same sustainability any magicka templar can get from spamming puncturing sweeps. None of this makes a DK "tanky." I know DKs and templars are supposed to be "tanky" - which is a stupid ambiguous term by the way - but a sorcerer and a nightblade are better equipped to survive, let alone overcome, the various dangers this game presents as challenges.
I play a templar and have specifically told ZoS what was wrong with the class so I am in no way exagerrating their effectiveness. But the whole anarchonistic reputation that magicka DKs are just "tanky" is outdated nonsense that does nothing to clarify the state of class balance in this game.
If templars are striving to be just as "tanky" as a magicka DK, then templars standards are very low and are in for a rude awakening if ZoS ever accedes to such a request.
I'm not trying to argue that DK's are not in a bad spot. They do make good tanks though, I'm sorry if you can't see this. My entire point was that Gindri's list did point out how DK's can be tanky. I think we all want DK's and Templars to be on par with Sorcs and Nightblades but I'm not sure how arguing over this point further will help this thread out.
It's quite simple. Every time you or someone else on this forum insists that DKs are "tanky," then ZoS has one more reason to pat themselves on the back for 1.6 and maintain this stupid status quo that heavily favors burst damage and mobility which will leave DKs and Templars out in the cold again.
But, by all means, keep telling ZoS that DKs are "tanky" and that Templars should strive to such heights. Maybe they will inspired to modify Breath of Life the way they did Dragon's Blood
I apologize for pointing out some positives the DK had. I realize now that I made a grave error and that I have mislead ZOS. If this next patch turns out to be *** for DKs everywhere, then you can go ahead and blame me.
DK's are tanky.Callidus_Est wrote: »Callidus_Est wrote: »Callidus_Est wrote: »
Maybe because that's the purpose of the build? If people can literally kill under one sec, then tough heal/tank builds have right to exist at the same power level of those one shot builds.
As an another example, steel tornado hits around 6k up to 6 people in 10m radius, costs almost nothing and gains stamina for each kill + axe bleeds if caster have it, but there is no heal/shield equivalent to that power level. Only maybe Lingering Ritual but it has 2 sec cast time.
I dont thing adding more powerful defensive options to game will make players "unkillable". No one was unkillable back then when there were no wrecking blows criting for 15k. Everyone was super tanky with shield stacks, perma blocking and impen, immovable spam and all those *** but we still were dying everyday hundreds of times. Even Sheliza the (so called) Unkillable was dying lol.
Think about that for a second, the way everyone kills Templars is by CCing them. If you gave them a MAGICKA immovable, you would not be able to kill them. Every class is powerful, but you need a way to kill them. that's the problem with Sorcs right now, and that would put Templars in the same problem.
Hmmm, so stam classes that can use Immovable are "unkillable" and that's okay? But a Magicka skill that grants the same immunity to immobilizes is not okay?
Stamina builds do not have Breath of life, and tell me one "celebrity" 1vxer stam toon that uses immoveable.
Yea they have Rally and Vigor.
What does that even mean, what does 1vX have to do with anything?!"IMO"Aldmeri DominionBosmer Nightblade AR 32 - Altmer Templar AR 26 - Dunmer Dragonknight AR 18 - Altmer Sorcerer AR 20 - Khajiit Dragonknight AR 18(+3 not worth mentioning, yet)1 -
dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »
It much more tanky in compare with another "hold your ground" class - templar.leepalmer95 wrote: »
It is more "problematic":Callidus_Est wrote: »Callidus_Est wrote: »
Maybe because that's the purpose of the build? If people can literally kill under one sec, then tough heal/tank builds have right to exist at the same power level of those one shot builds.
As an another example, steel tornado hits around 6k up to 6 people in 10m radius, costs almost nothing and gains stamina for each kill + axe bleeds if caster have it, but there is no heal/shield equivalent to that power level. Only maybe Lingering Ritual but it has 2 sec cast time.
I dont thing adding more powerful defensive options to game will make players "unkillable". No one was unkillable back then when there were no wrecking blows criting for 15k. Everyone was super tanky with shield stacks, perma blocking and impen, immovable spam and all those *** but we still were dying everyday hundreds of times. Even Sheliza the (so called) Unkillable was dying lol.
Think about that for a second, the way everyone kills Templars is by CCing them. If you gave them a MAGICKA immovable, you would not be able to kill them. Every class is powerful, but you need a way to kill them. that's the problem with Sorcs right now, and that would put Templars in the same problem.
1. NBs and sorcs are OP in compare with dks and templars, so does making dks and templars OP will equalize classes?(yes, i prefer to see dks and temps buffed instead of sorcs and nbs nerfed, like rest of forum ask)
2. When dks will be fixed [especially skills like DragonBlood], dks will be on top of food chain again coz people already changed their builds to increase their survivability. With such obvious sustain fixes and promised DD capability buffed, DKs magicka dks will run Cyro again. So templars,if they won't get noticeble defensive mechanics, will be on bottom of food chain again; but now without magicka dks buddies, i.e. same situation that happened after 1.5.
3. Even this suggestion about Eclipse won't make this skill better than Blinding Flashes, and BF were removed not coz it was OP in PvP, but because it was OP in PvE(LOL?). However i agree, ability in Dawn Wrath tree should have some damage output, not to be pure defense, even Searing Light morph of BL prevoiusly had 8m aoe damage in addition to granted defense.
4. Lets be honest, BoL is only thing that keeps templars alive in Cyro, templars invested all resources to buff healing output and forced to play healers in heavy armor. 1 skill for defense is perfect example how terrible current situation with class. I won't mind such things like LoS for BoL to prevent it from abusing but giving other defensive skills. DK' with fixed DragonBlood healing output equal to Templar with Honor the Dead, but unlike templar they have scales, aoe interrupts, aoe damage mitigations(like Choking Talons), so they require to invest much less resources in defense and thats allowing them to be stronger DD than templars. DK who will invest as much resources in defense as templar forced to, will be 5 times tougher than templar.
In the end, obviously ZOS already implemented their changes and our decisions won't make any difference till we try new skills on pts.
People keep saying dk's are more 'tanky' than other classes, im curious how so?
1. They have 2 passives to restore resources. i.e. 2 passives to restore stamina allowing to hold block much-much longer. Templar has only such weird thing like Repentance
2. They have magical wings of fairy dragon called Scales. Imagine that 4 Frags or 4 Lethal Arrows flying toward you and each will hit you for 8k=32k damage in total. And pressing 1magic button making you negate this 32k damage. Even BoL looks pale in compare to this
3. They have best defensive ultimates(Standart apply damage mitigation buff on you, unlike Nova that apply only damage debuff on enemy, zero enemies in Nova=zero effect. Leap grants solid damage shield in addition to high damage and solid CC, Armor making you literally god-mode for 9 sec). Btw i imagine insane damage magicka dks will deal if one morph of Leap will be changed to deal elemental/magical damage.
4. They have aoe root skill(Choking Talons) that doing literally what Empowering Sweep ult doing for templar.
5. They can blockcasting their skills, so they don't need to hold-off block to fight enemy. Unlike templar, who dd skills are mostly channeled.
6. They probably will have back fixed DragonBlood that equal to templar Honor the Dead, i.e. evey dk again will be as good at self-healing as templar.
^^^this is more than enough to be best tanks.
You are saying DKs are better tanks than templars. That does not make them "tanky."
As long as Cyrodiil heavily favors burst damage / maneuverability and Wrobel insists on keeping ultimate tied to a cooldown, magicka DKs will not rule Cyrodiil.
Everything he listed does describe how DK's are tanky.
1. Passives help them block longer than other classes.
2. Scales reflects ranged attacks which means they don't have to break LoS or anything and can just stand there taking damage and dealing it right back. No other class has this.
3. You should check out magma armor, it caps incoming damage. No other class has this.
4. Rooting keeps enemies near them. Sorcs have this with encase.
6. Block casting keeps them alive longer. This works for any class with insta cast abilities but most of the DK's abilities are insta cast.
7. If Dragon Blood gets fixed then it will be comparable to BoL and it's cheaper which would mean they would be able to heal themselves competently without a pocket healer.
All this adds up to better tankiness. He compared much of the DK to Templars because this is a Templar thread and Templars are supposed to be somewhat tanky as well.
Blockcasting? What is this, 1.5? Here's #8 for you: a (magicka) DK actually has to theorycraft and have a specific build to attain the same sustainability any magicka templar can get from spamming puncturing sweeps. None of this makes a DK "tanky." I know DKs and templars are supposed to be "tanky" - which is a stupid ambiguous term by the way - but a sorcerer and a nightblade are better equipped to survive, let alone overcome, the various dangers this game presents as challenges.
I play a templar and have specifically told ZoS what was wrong with the class so I am in no way exagerrating their effectiveness. But the whole anarchonistic reputation that magicka DKs are just "tanky" is outdated nonsense that does nothing to clarify the state of class balance in this game.
If templars are striving to be just as "tanky" as a magicka DK, then templars standards are very low and are in for a rude awakening if ZoS ever accedes to such a request.
I'm not trying to argue that DK's are not in a bad spot. They do make good tanks though, I'm sorry if you can't see this. My entire point was that Gindri's list did point out how DK's can be tanky. I think we all want DK's and Templars to be on par with Sorcs and Nightblades but I'm not sure how arguing over this point further will help this thread out.
It's quite simple. Every time you or someone else on this forum insists that DKs are "tanky," then ZoS has one more reason to pat themselves on the back for 1.6 and maintain this stupid status quo that heavily favors burst damage and mobility which will leave DKs and Templars out in the cold again.
But, by all means, keep telling ZoS that DKs are "tanky" and that Templars should strive to such heights. Maybe they will inspired to modify Breath of Life the way they did Dragon's Blood
I apologize for pointing out some positives the DK had. I realize now that I made a grave error and that I have mislead ZOS. If this next patch turns out to be *** for DKs everywhere, then you can go ahead and blame me.
You did more than "pointing out some positives the DK had." You said "Everything he listed does describe how DK's are tanky" and "I'm sorry if you can't see this," which clearly state I'm wrong and that DKs are tanks worthy of inspiration. It's not the DKs I am worried about. I'm worried that ZoS will try to make templars "tankier" by taking inspiration from current DKs because so many people just parrot the notion they are "tanky." This will mean another year of frustration and resolve none of the issues templars face.
To be fair I use to enjoy playing my Templar as a tank, and the weight of so many bad design changes in the game have caused me to abandon all hope. It is simply much more fun to play another class as a tank. Nightblade for instance has mirage (which grants speed and crit among other things), cloak, shadow path, funnel health, sap essence, cloaked blade, assassin strike, etc etc. I could keep going on and on about abilities that work quite well in the tank role for Nightblade, which means they have a wide variety of tools they could choose to work with. It has strong base regeneration, and the ability to siphon resources off others, and this class also can easily move into a strong damage role and a strong healing role with the right build. Nightblade plays far more smoothly and has far less glitchy abilities. It has passives that are useful for all stripes of nightblade in all 3 trees. Can anyone say the same of Templar? I don't think so. The only difference is that Templar has the highest upward potential of burst heals of any class. If your team has huge dps though, that burst healing potential is more or less meaningless. The more they keep moving the game in the direction they are moving, the less I feel the need to play Templar even in its supposed strength or highest competency (Healing). I have played my Templar the last six months as a Stamplar, and I must say that while in places like Wrothgar, or farming in general it plays wonderfully, when it hits the crucible of any serious challenge content or pvp, you really feel the difference. I think you are right though in that we don't need to be 'more like DK' they just need to make a lot of our broken skills work, and they need to make our class synergy on par with other classes. I could happily live with a weaker breath of life, if it meant Templar were a lot more functional in other areas, in fact I would welcome it. The fact they are actually in the process of nerfing Cleansing Ritual flabbergasts me. I really can't believe they are doing that, the class is already fairly well gutted. It doesn't need more of the same.US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
<And plenty more>3 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@dodgehopper_ESO -
I'm not sure what I said that gave the impression that I would disagree with anything you say. And I'm not sure why templars get all defensive when I claim that the notion that DKs are "tanky" is obsolete.
It's like they think that just because I think DKs are overrated as tanks ergo that must mean that templars are better and thus good tanks. Not at all. It simply means DKs are not as inherently tanky as is claimed and if templars aspire to emulate their alleged status as tanks, they are going to be disappointed the next patch and for another year.
Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.2 -
dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »@dodgehopper_ESO -
I'm not sure what I said that gave the impression that I would disagree with anything you say. And I'm not sure why templars get all defensive when I claim that the notion that DKs are "tanky" is obsolete.
It's like they think that just because I think DKs are overrated as tanks ergo that must mean that templars are better and thus good tanks. Not at all. It simply means DKs are not as inherently tanky as is claimed and if templars aspire to emulate their alleged status as tanks, they are going to be disappointed the next patch and for another year.
Actually I was agreeing with you. I'm sorry for lack of clarity. My point in that wall of text was really that Templars just have their own issues that need to be dealt with in terms of their own issues. Templars and Dks are not built the same way. Templars do not recover resources anything like a DK. DK's have Mountain's Blessing, Battle Roar, etc for recovering resources. They are simply built differently, and therefore considering their balance concerns needs to be done in the confines of that skill and ours. I agree with you also that DK's are not as tough as they use to be. I'm personally finding Nightblade to be amazing all around, and they don't even have a 'damage shield'. The rest of it is just me spouting current Templar pros/cons. I agree with you on almost everything I've seen you post on the topic, here and in other discussions.
My only real comment to you, was that I come from the position that I would like Templar Tanks to still be a 'thing'. In that regard I do think Templar is currently in a worse state than DK. I think you are right that DK/Temp are hurting as tanks, for a few reasons.US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
<And plenty more>3 -
bikerangelo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Joy_Division wrote: »@dodgehopper_ESO -
I'm not sure what I said that gave the impression that I would disagree with anything you say. And I'm not sure why templars get all defensive when I claim that the notion that DKs are "tanky" is obsolete.
It's like they think that just because I think DKs are overrated as tanks ergo that must mean that templars are better and thus good tanks. Not at all. It simply means DKs are not as inherently tanky as is claimed and if templars aspire to emulate their alleged status as tanks, they are going to be disappointed the next patch and for another year.
So essentially, the meta of tanking has not been fulfilled by any imparticular class, or it was at one point but due to ZOS' tinkering with mechanics, the one class everyone used to associate with tanks, the DK, is now no longer at its optimal state. With that in mind, comparing Templar tanking to the DK is a misnomer as DK's now lack the ideal tanking quality they used to have or should have. Joy, correct me if I'm wrong?
As far as the Templar class goes regarding its versatility with spiritual healer, heavy armor paladin, and damage dealing cleric, there are significant drawbacks in 2 of these 3 class archetypes that restricts the Templar class from being statistically competitive with the other classes. These include subpar passives and a lack of utility that other class abilities possess, which is also something the DK possesses more of with regards to CC's and regen. Nightblades also have superior... well, everything, aside from burst healing. This is the only place Templars excel, and if ZOS remotely cared about the class, they would implement fixes and improvements across the board for Templars before even laying a finger on their healing.
But no, purges are getting nerfed, apparently Purifying Ritual is getting a direct nerf(?), and too many people are complaining about BoL, which always results in ZOS using a band-aid fix that will essentially ruin the ability, and in concurrence, the class.8 -
tplink3r1✭✭✭✭✭
✭
No class but sorcs are tanky in this game, stop trying to convince yourself otherwise.Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »
It much more tanky in compare with another "hold your ground" class - templar.leepalmer95 wrote: »
It is more "problematic":Callidus_Est wrote: »Callidus_Est wrote: »
Maybe because that's the purpose of the build? If people can literally kill under one sec, then tough heal/tank builds have right to exist at the same power level of those one shot builds.
As an another example, steel tornado hits around 6k up to 6 people in 10m radius, costs almost nothing and gains stamina for each kill + axe bleeds if caster have it, but there is no heal/shield equivalent to that power level. Only maybe Lingering Ritual but it has 2 sec cast time.
I dont thing adding more powerful defensive options to game will make players "unkillable". No one was unkillable back then when there were no wrecking blows criting for 15k. Everyone was super tanky with shield stacks, perma blocking and impen, immovable spam and all those *** but we still were dying everyday hundreds of times. Even Sheliza the (so called) Unkillable was dying lol.
Think about that for a second, the way everyone kills Templars is by CCing them. If you gave them a MAGICKA immovable, you would not be able to kill them. Every class is powerful, but you need a way to kill them. that's the problem with Sorcs right now, and that would put Templars in the same problem.
1. NBs and sorcs are OP in compare with dks and templars, so does making dks and templars OP will equalize classes?(yes, i prefer to see dks and temps buffed instead of sorcs and nbs nerfed, like rest of forum ask)
2. When dks will be fixed [especially skills like DragonBlood], dks will be on top of food chain again coz people already changed their builds to increase their survivability. With such obvious sustain fixes and promised DD capability buffed, DKs magicka dks will run Cyro again. So templars,if they won't get noticeble defensive mechanics, will be on bottom of food chain again; but now without magicka dks buddies, i.e. same situation that happened after 1.5.
3. Even this suggestion about Eclipse won't make this skill better than Blinding Flashes, and BF were removed not coz it was OP in PvP, but because it was OP in PvE(LOL?). However i agree, ability in Dawn Wrath tree should have some damage output, not to be pure defense, even Searing Light morph of BL prevoiusly had 8m aoe damage in addition to granted defense.
4. Lets be honest, BoL is only thing that keeps templars alive in Cyro, templars invested all resources to buff healing output and forced to play healers in heavy armor. 1 skill for defense is perfect example how terrible current situation with class. I won't mind such things like LoS for BoL to prevent it from abusing but giving other defensive skills. DK' with fixed DragonBlood healing output equal to Templar with Honor the Dead, but unlike templar they have scales, aoe interrupts, aoe damage mitigations(like Choking Talons), so they require to invest much less resources in defense and thats allowing them to be stronger DD than templars. DK who will invest as much resources in defense as templar forced to, will be 5 times tougher than templar.
In the end, obviously ZOS already implemented their changes and our decisions won't make any difference till we try new skills on pts.
People keep saying dk's are more 'tanky' than other classes, im curious how so?
1. They have 2 passives to restore resources. i.e. 2 passives to restore stamina allowing to hold block much-much longer. Templar has only such weird thing like Repentance
2. They have magical wings of fairy dragon called Scales. Imagine that 4 Frags or 4 Lethal Arrows flying toward you and each will hit you for 8k=32k damage in total. And pressing 1magic button making you negate this 32k damage. Even BoL looks pale in compare to this
3. They have best defensive ultimates(Standart apply damage mitigation buff on you, unlike Nova that apply only damage debuff on enemy, zero enemies in Nova=zero effect. Leap grants solid damage shield in addition to high damage and solid CC, Armor making you literally god-mode for 9 sec). Btw i imagine insane damage magicka dks will deal if one morph of Leap will be changed to deal elemental/magical damage.
4. They have aoe root skill(Choking Talons) that doing literally what Empowering Sweep ult doing for templar.
5. They can blockcasting their skills, so they don't need to hold-off block to fight enemy. Unlike templar, who dd skills are mostly channeled.
6. They probably will have back fixed DragonBlood that equal to templar Honor the Dead, i.e. evey dk again will be as good at self-healing as templar.
^^^this is more than enough to be best tanks.
You are saying DKs are better tanks than templars. That does not make them "tanky."
As long as Cyrodiil heavily favors burst damage / maneuverability and Wrobel insists on keeping ultimate tied to a cooldown, magicka DKs will not rule Cyrodiil.
Everything he listed does describe how DK's are tanky.
1. Passives help them block longer than other classes.
2. Scales reflects ranged attacks which means they don't have to break LoS or anything and can just stand there taking damage and dealing it right back. No other class has this.
3. You should check out magma armor, it caps incoming damage. No other class has this.
4. Rooting keeps enemies near them. Sorcs have this with encase.
6. Block casting keeps them alive longer. This works for any class with insta cast abilities but most of the DK's abilities are insta cast.
7. If Dragon Blood gets fixed then it will be comparable to BoL and it's cheaper which would mean they would be able to heal themselves competently without a pocket healer.
All this adds up to better tankiness. He compared much of the DK to Templars because this is a Templar thread and Templars are supposed to be somewhat tanky as well.
Blockcasting? What is this, 1.5? Here's #8 for you: a (magicka) DK actually has to theorycraft and have a specific build to attain the same sustainability any magicka templar can get from spamming puncturing sweeps. None of this makes a DK "tanky." I know DKs and templars are supposed to be "tanky" - which is a stupid ambiguous term by the way - but a sorcerer and a nightblade are better equipped to survive, let alone overcome, the various dangers this game presents as challenges.
I play a templar and have specifically told ZoS what was wrong with the class so I am in no way exagerrating their effectiveness. But the whole anarchonistic reputation that magicka DKs are just "tanky" is outdated nonsense that does nothing to clarify the state of class balance in this game.
If templars are striving to be just as "tanky" as a magicka DK, then templars standards are very low and are in for a rude awakening if ZoS ever accedes to such a request.
I'm not trying to argue that DK's are not in a bad spot. They do make good tanks though, I'm sorry if you can't see this. My entire point was that Gindri's list did point out how DK's can be tanky. I think we all want DK's and Templars to be on par with Sorcs and Nightblades but I'm not sure how arguing over this point further will help this thread out.
It's quite simple. Every time you or someone else on this forum insists that DKs are "tanky," then ZoS has one more reason to pat themselves on the back for 1.6 and maintain this stupid status quo that heavily favors burst damage and mobility which will leave DKs and Templars out in the cold again.
But, by all means, keep telling ZoS that DKs are "tanky" and that Templars should strive to such heights. Maybe they will inspired to modify Breath of Life the way they did Dragon's Blood
I apologize for pointing out some positives the DK had. I realize now that I made a grave error and that I have mislead ZOS. If this next patch turns out to be *** for DKs everywhere, then you can go ahead and blame me.
DK's are tanky.Callidus_Est wrote: »Callidus_Est wrote: »Callidus_Est wrote: »
Maybe because that's the purpose of the build? If people can literally kill under one sec, then tough heal/tank builds have right to exist at the same power level of those one shot builds.
As an another example, steel tornado hits around 6k up to 6 people in 10m radius, costs almost nothing and gains stamina for each kill + axe bleeds if caster have it, but there is no heal/shield equivalent to that power level. Only maybe Lingering Ritual but it has 2 sec cast time.
I dont thing adding more powerful defensive options to game will make players "unkillable". No one was unkillable back then when there were no wrecking blows criting for 15k. Everyone was super tanky with shield stacks, perma blocking and impen, immovable spam and all those *** but we still were dying everyday hundreds of times. Even Sheliza the (so called) Unkillable was dying lol.
Think about that for a second, the way everyone kills Templars is by CCing them. If you gave them a MAGICKA immovable, you would not be able to kill them. Every class is powerful, but you need a way to kill them. that's the problem with Sorcs right now, and that would put Templars in the same problem.
Hmmm, so stam classes that can use Immovable are "unkillable" and that's okay? But a Magicka skill that grants the same immunity to immobilizes is not okay?
Stamina builds do not have Breath of life, and tell me one "celebrity" 1vxer stam toon that uses immoveable.
Yea they have Rally and Vigor.
What does that even mean, what does 1vX have to do with anything?!
Also, rally and vigor are not even close to BoL.
VR16 Templar
VR3 Sorcerer0 -
dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭bikerangelo wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »@dodgehopper_ESO -
I'm not sure what I said that gave the impression that I would disagree with anything you say. And I'm not sure why templars get all defensive when I claim that the notion that DKs are "tanky" is obsolete.
It's like they think that just because I think DKs are overrated as tanks ergo that must mean that templars are better and thus good tanks. Not at all. It simply means DKs are not as inherently tanky as is claimed and if templars aspire to emulate their alleged status as tanks, they are going to be disappointed the next patch and for another year.
So essentially, the meta of tanking has not been fulfilled by any imparticular class, or it was at one point but due to ZOS' tinkering with mechanics, the one class everyone used to associate with tanks, the DK, is now no longer at its optimal state. With that in mind, comparing Templar tanking to the DK is a misnomer as DK's now lack the ideal tanking quality they used to have or should have. Joy, correct me if I'm wrong?
As far as the Templar class goes regarding its versatility with spiritual healer, heavy armor paladin, and damage dealing cleric, there are significant drawbacks in 2 of these 3 class archetypes that restricts the Templar class from being statistically competitive with the other classes. These include subpar passives and a lack of utility that other class abilities possess, which is also something the DK possesses more of with regards to CC's and regen. Nightblades also have superior... well, everything, aside from burst healing. This is the only place Templars excel, and if ZOS remotely cared about the class, they would implement fixes and improvements across the board for Templars before even laying a finger on their healing.
But no, purges are getting nerfed, apparently Purifying Ritual is getting a direct nerf(?), and too many people are complaining about BoL, which always results in ZOS using a band-aid fix that will essentially ruin the ability, and in concurrence, the class.
The sad truth is I'm not sure they could do much more to ruin the class. When I look at Templar class skills, the only two abilities that truly stand out are Purifying/Cleansing Ritual and Breath of Life. If/When those two skills get gutted, Templar really won't be worth much to anyone apart from theme.US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
<And plenty more>6 -
AOECAPS✭✭✭✭dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »
It much more tanky in compare with another "hold your ground" class - templar.leepalmer95 wrote: »
It is more "problematic":Callidus_Est wrote: »Callidus_Est wrote: »
Maybe because that's the purpose of the build? If people can literally kill under one sec, then tough heal/tank builds have right to exist at the same power level of those one shot builds.
As an another example, steel tornado hits around 6k up to 6 people in 10m radius, costs almost nothing and gains stamina for each kill + axe bleeds if caster have it, but there is no heal/shield equivalent to that power level. Only maybe Lingering Ritual but it has 2 sec cast time.
I dont thing adding more powerful defensive options to game will make players "unkillable". No one was unkillable back then when there were no wrecking blows criting for 15k. Everyone was super tanky with shield stacks, perma blocking and impen, immovable spam and all those *** but we still were dying everyday hundreds of times. Even Sheliza the (so called) Unkillable was dying lol.
Think about that for a second, the way everyone kills Templars is by CCing them. If you gave them a MAGICKA immovable, you would not be able to kill them. Every class is powerful, but you need a way to kill them. that's the problem with Sorcs right now, and that would put Templars in the same problem.
1. NBs and sorcs are OP in compare with dks and templars, so does making dks and templars OP will equalize classes?(yes, i prefer to see dks and temps buffed instead of sorcs and nbs nerfed, like rest of forum ask)
2. When dks will be fixed [especially skills like DragonBlood], dks will be on top of food chain again coz people already changed their builds to increase their survivability. With such obvious sustain fixes and promised DD capability buffed, DKs magicka dks will run Cyro again. So templars,if they won't get noticeble defensive mechanics, will be on bottom of food chain again; but now without magicka dks buddies, i.e. same situation that happened after 1.5.
3. Even this suggestion about Eclipse won't make this skill better than Blinding Flashes, and BF were removed not coz it was OP in PvP, but because it was OP in PvE(LOL?). However i agree, ability in Dawn Wrath tree should have some damage output, not to be pure defense, even Searing Light morph of BL prevoiusly had 8m aoe damage in addition to granted defense.
4. Lets be honest, BoL is only thing that keeps templars alive in Cyro, templars invested all resources to buff healing output and forced to play healers in heavy armor. 1 skill for defense is perfect example how terrible current situation with class. I won't mind such things like LoS for BoL to prevent it from abusing but giving other defensive skills. DK' with fixed DragonBlood healing output equal to Templar with Honor the Dead, but unlike templar they have scales, aoe interrupts, aoe damage mitigations(like Choking Talons), so they require to invest much less resources in defense and thats allowing them to be stronger DD than templars. DK who will invest as much resources in defense as templar forced to, will be 5 times tougher than templar.
In the end, obviously ZOS already implemented their changes and our decisions won't make any difference till we try new skills on pts.
People keep saying dk's are more 'tanky' than other classes, im curious how so?
1. They have 2 passives to restore resources. i.e. 2 passives to restore stamina allowing to hold block much-much longer. Templar has only such weird thing like Repentance
2. They have magical wings of fairy dragon called Scales. Imagine that 4 Frags or 4 Lethal Arrows flying toward you and each will hit you for 8k=32k damage in total. And pressing 1magic button making you negate this 32k damage. Even BoL looks pale in compare to this
3. They have best defensive ultimates(Standart apply damage mitigation buff on you, unlike Nova that apply only damage debuff on enemy, zero enemies in Nova=zero effect. Leap grants solid damage shield in addition to high damage and solid CC, Armor making you literally god-mode for 9 sec). Btw i imagine insane damage magicka dks will deal if one morph of Leap will be changed to deal elemental/magical damage.
4. They have aoe root skill(Choking Talons) that doing literally what Empowering Sweep ult doing for templar.
5. They can blockcasting their skills, so they don't need to hold-off block to fight enemy. Unlike templar, who dd skills are mostly channeled.
6. They probably will have back fixed DragonBlood that equal to templar Honor the Dead, i.e. evey dk again will be as good at self-healing as templar.
^^^this is more than enough to be best tanks.
You are saying DKs are better tanks than templars. That does not make them "tanky."
As long as Cyrodiil heavily favors burst damage / maneuverability and Wrobel insists on keeping ultimate tied to a cooldown, magicka DKs will not rule Cyrodiil.
Everything he listed does describe how DK's are tanky.
1. Passives help them block longer than other classes.
2. Scales reflects ranged attacks which means they don't have to break LoS or anything and can just stand there taking damage and dealing it right back. No other class has this.
3. You should check out magma armor, it caps incoming damage. No other class has this.
4. Rooting keeps enemies near them. Sorcs have this with encase.
6. Block casting keeps them alive longer. This works for any class with insta cast abilities but most of the DK's abilities are insta cast.
7. If Dragon Blood gets fixed then it will be comparable to BoL and it's cheaper which would mean they would be able to heal themselves competently without a pocket healer.
All this adds up to better tankiness. He compared much of the DK to Templars because this is a Templar thread and Templars are supposed to be somewhat tanky as well.
Blockcasting? What is this, 1.5? Here's #8 for you: a (magicka) DK actually has to theorycraft and have a specific build to attain the same sustainability any magicka templar can get from spamming puncturing sweeps. None of this makes a DK "tanky." I know DKs and templars are supposed to be "tanky" - which is a stupid ambiguous term by the way - but a sorcerer and a nightblade are better equipped to survive, let alone overcome, the various dangers this game presents as challenges.
I play a templar and have specifically told ZoS what was wrong with the class so I am in no way exagerrating their effectiveness. But the whole anarchonistic reputation that magicka DKs are just "tanky" is outdated nonsense that does nothing to clarify the state of class balance in this game.
If templars are striving to be just as "tanky" as a magicka DK, then templars standards are very low and are in for a rude awakening if ZoS ever accedes to such a request.
I'm not trying to argue that DK's are not in a bad spot. They do make good tanks though, I'm sorry if you can't see this. My entire point was that Gindri's list did point out how DK's can be tanky. I think we all want DK's and Templars to be on par with Sorcs and Nightblades but I'm not sure how arguing over this point further will help this thread out.
It's quite simple. Every time you or someone else on this forum insists that DKs are "tanky," then ZoS has one more reason to pat themselves on the back for 1.6 and maintain this stupid status quo that heavily favors burst damage and mobility which will leave DKs and Templars out in the cold again.
But, by all means, keep telling ZoS that DKs are "tanky" and that Templars should strive to such heights. Maybe they will inspired to modify Breath of Life the way they did Dragon's Blood
I apologize for pointing out some positives the DK had. I realize now that I made a grave error and that I have mislead ZOS. If this next patch turns out to be *** for DKs everywhere, then you can go ahead and blame me.
You did more than "pointing out some positives the DK had." You said "Everything he listed does describe how DK's are tanky" and "I'm sorry if you can't see this," which clearly state I'm wrong and that DKs are tanks worthy of inspiration. It's not the DKs I am worried about. I'm worried that ZoS will try to make templars "tankier" by taking inspiration from current DKs because so many people just parrot the notion they are "tanky." This will mean another year of frustration and resolve none of the issues templars face.
To be fair I use to enjoy playing my Templar as a tank, and the weight of so many bad design changes in the game have caused me to abandon all hope. It is simply much more fun to play another class as a tank. Nightblade for instance has mirage (which grants speed and crit among other things), cloak, shadow path, funnel health, sap essence, cloaked blade, assassin strike, etc etc. I could keep going on and on about abilities that work quite well in the tank role for Nightblade, which means they have a wide variety of tools they could choose to work with. It has strong base regeneration, and the ability to siphon resources off others, and this class also can easily move into a strong damage role and a strong healing role with the right build. Nightblade plays far more smoothly and has far less glitchy abilities. It has passives that are useful for all stripes of nightblade in all 3 trees. Can anyone say the same of Templar? I don't think so. The only difference is that Templar has the highest upward potential of burst heals of any class. If your team has huge dps though, that burst healing potential is more or less meaningless. The more they keep moving the game in the direction they are moving, the less I feel the need to play Templar even in its supposed strength or highest competency (Healing). I have played my Templar the last six months as a Stamplar, and I must say that while in places like Wrothgar, or farming in general it plays wonderfully, when it hits the crucible of any serious challenge content or pvp, you really feel the difference. I think you are right though in that we don't need to be 'more like DK' they just need to make a lot of our broken skills work, and they need to make our class synergy on par with other classes. I could happily live with a weaker breath of life, if it meant Templar were a lot more functional in other areas, in fact I would welcome it. The fact they are actually in the process of nerfing Cleansing Ritual flabbergasts me. I really can't believe they are doing that, the class is already fairly well gutted. It doesn't need more of the same.
I agree/disagree with your comments pvp yea stamplar are right at the bottoms of the poll because of broken skills passives that have no benefit for stamina Templars and for maelstrom purposes lack of mobility.but I'm group end game content my stamplar is wonderful with kena procced I'm sitting at 4700 and some change weapon damage I can sustain in boss fights without shards and just stack on DOTs with jabs. Only end game content I haven't completed it vICP and that's because synergy mechanics are a joke not only in general but on console especially and haven't got to run ICP with another DD that I know can put out damage (mostly run out groups) and the occasional group of friends I know can run the more difficult content. Pvp if at any point turns into a 1vx my stamplar gets decimated from 20NBs and ambush spam. But I think I've just gotten used to playing a gimped class that I'm use to of ping with him and PVE content is a breeze outside of maelstrom. I thought maelstrom was incredibly tough until I got on my magblade and breezed through it
0 -
Callidus_Est✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »
It much more tanky in compare with another "hold your ground" class - templar.leepalmer95 wrote: »
It is more "problematic":Callidus_Est wrote: »Callidus_Est wrote: »
Maybe because that's the purpose of the build? If people can literally kill under one sec, then tough heal/tank builds have right to exist at the same power level of those one shot builds.
As an another example, steel tornado hits around 6k up to 6 people in 10m radius, costs almost nothing and gains stamina for each kill + axe bleeds if caster have it, but there is no heal/shield equivalent to that power level. Only maybe Lingering Ritual but it has 2 sec cast time.
I dont thing adding more powerful defensive options to game will make players "unkillable". No one was unkillable back then when there were no wrecking blows criting for 15k. Everyone was super tanky with shield stacks, perma blocking and impen, immovable spam and all those *** but we still were dying everyday hundreds of times. Even Sheliza the (so called) Unkillable was dying lol.
Think about that for a second, the way everyone kills Templars is by CCing them. If you gave them a MAGICKA immovable, you would not be able to kill them. Every class is powerful, but you need a way to kill them. that's the problem with Sorcs right now, and that would put Templars in the same problem.
1. NBs and sorcs are OP in compare with dks and templars, so does making dks and templars OP will equalize classes?(yes, i prefer to see dks and temps buffed instead of sorcs and nbs nerfed, like rest of forum ask)
2. When dks will be fixed [especially skills like DragonBlood], dks will be on top of food chain again coz people already changed their builds to increase their survivability. With such obvious sustain fixes and promised DD capability buffed, DKs magicka dks will run Cyro again. So templars,if they won't get noticeble defensive mechanics, will be on bottom of food chain again; but now without magicka dks buddies, i.e. same situation that happened after 1.5.
3. Even this suggestion about Eclipse won't make this skill better than Blinding Flashes, and BF were removed not coz it was OP in PvP, but because it was OP in PvE(LOL?). However i agree, ability in Dawn Wrath tree should have some damage output, not to be pure defense, even Searing Light morph of BL prevoiusly had 8m aoe damage in addition to granted defense.
4. Lets be honest, BoL is only thing that keeps templars alive in Cyro, templars invested all resources to buff healing output and forced to play healers in heavy armor. 1 skill for defense is perfect example how terrible current situation with class. I won't mind such things like LoS for BoL to prevent it from abusing but giving other defensive skills. DK' with fixed DragonBlood healing output equal to Templar with Honor the Dead, but unlike templar they have scales, aoe interrupts, aoe damage mitigations(like Choking Talons), so they require to invest much less resources in defense and thats allowing them to be stronger DD than templars. DK who will invest as much resources in defense as templar forced to, will be 5 times tougher than templar.
In the end, obviously ZOS already implemented their changes and our decisions won't make any difference till we try new skills on pts.
People keep saying dk's are more 'tanky' than other classes, im curious how so?
1. They have 2 passives to restore resources. i.e. 2 passives to restore stamina allowing to hold block much-much longer. Templar has only such weird thing like Repentance
2. They have magical wings of fairy dragon called Scales. Imagine that 4 Frags or 4 Lethal Arrows flying toward you and each will hit you for 8k=32k damage in total. And pressing 1magic button making you negate this 32k damage. Even BoL looks pale in compare to this
3. They have best defensive ultimates(Standart apply damage mitigation buff on you, unlike Nova that apply only damage debuff on enemy, zero enemies in Nova=zero effect. Leap grants solid damage shield in addition to high damage and solid CC, Armor making you literally god-mode for 9 sec). Btw i imagine insane damage magicka dks will deal if one morph of Leap will be changed to deal elemental/magical damage.
4. They have aoe root skill(Choking Talons) that doing literally what Empowering Sweep ult doing for templar.
5. They can blockcasting their skills, so they don't need to hold-off block to fight enemy. Unlike templar, who dd skills are mostly channeled.
6. They probably will have back fixed DragonBlood that equal to templar Honor the Dead, i.e. evey dk again will be as good at self-healing as templar.
^^^this is more than enough to be best tanks.
You are saying DKs are better tanks than templars. That does not make them "tanky."
As long as Cyrodiil heavily favors burst damage / maneuverability and Wrobel insists on keeping ultimate tied to a cooldown, magicka DKs will not rule Cyrodiil.
Everything he listed does describe how DK's are tanky.
1. Passives help them block longer than other classes.
2. Scales reflects ranged attacks which means they don't have to break LoS or anything and can just stand there taking damage and dealing it right back. No other class has this.
3. You should check out magma armor, it caps incoming damage. No other class has this.
4. Rooting keeps enemies near them. Sorcs have this with encase.
6. Block casting keeps them alive longer. This works for any class with insta cast abilities but most of the DK's abilities are insta cast.
7. If Dragon Blood gets fixed then it will be comparable to BoL and it's cheaper which would mean they would be able to heal themselves competently without a pocket healer.
All this adds up to better tankiness. He compared much of the DK to Templars because this is a Templar thread and Templars are supposed to be somewhat tanky as well.
Blockcasting? What is this, 1.5? Here's #8 for you: a (magicka) DK actually has to theorycraft and have a specific build to attain the same sustainability any magicka templar can get from spamming puncturing sweeps. None of this makes a DK "tanky." I know DKs and templars are supposed to be "tanky" - which is a stupid ambiguous term by the way - but a sorcerer and a nightblade are better equipped to survive, let alone overcome, the various dangers this game presents as challenges.
I play a templar and have specifically told ZoS what was wrong with the class so I am in no way exagerrating their effectiveness. But the whole anarchonistic reputation that magicka DKs are just "tanky" is outdated nonsense that does nothing to clarify the state of class balance in this game.
If templars are striving to be just as "tanky" as a magicka DK, then templars standards are very low and are in for a rude awakening if ZoS ever accedes to such a request.
I'm not trying to argue that DK's are not in a bad spot. They do make good tanks though, I'm sorry if you can't see this. My entire point was that Gindri's list did point out how DK's can be tanky. I think we all want DK's and Templars to be on par with Sorcs and Nightblades but I'm not sure how arguing over this point further will help this thread out.
It's quite simple. Every time you or someone else on this forum insists that DKs are "tanky," then ZoS has one more reason to pat themselves on the back for 1.6 and maintain this stupid status quo that heavily favors burst damage and mobility which will leave DKs and Templars out in the cold again.
But, by all means, keep telling ZoS that DKs are "tanky" and that Templars should strive to such heights. Maybe they will inspired to modify Breath of Life the way they did Dragon's Blood
I apologize for pointing out some positives the DK had. I realize now that I made a grave error and that I have mislead ZOS. If this next patch turns out to be *** for DKs everywhere, then you can go ahead and blame me.
DK's are tanky.Callidus_Est wrote: »Callidus_Est wrote: »Callidus_Est wrote: »
Maybe because that's the purpose of the build? If people can literally kill under one sec, then tough heal/tank builds have right to exist at the same power level of those one shot builds.
As an another example, steel tornado hits around 6k up to 6 people in 10m radius, costs almost nothing and gains stamina for each kill + axe bleeds if caster have it, but there is no heal/shield equivalent to that power level. Only maybe Lingering Ritual but it has 2 sec cast time.
I dont thing adding more powerful defensive options to game will make players "unkillable". No one was unkillable back then when there were no wrecking blows criting for 15k. Everyone was super tanky with shield stacks, perma blocking and impen, immovable spam and all those *** but we still were dying everyday hundreds of times. Even Sheliza the (so called) Unkillable was dying lol.
Think about that for a second, the way everyone kills Templars is by CCing them. If you gave them a MAGICKA immovable, you would not be able to kill them. Every class is powerful, but you need a way to kill them. that's the problem with Sorcs right now, and that would put Templars in the same problem.
Hmmm, so stam classes that can use Immovable are "unkillable" and that's okay? But a Magicka skill that grants the same immunity to immobilizes is not okay?
Stamina builds do not have Breath of life, and tell me one "celebrity" 1vxer stam toon that uses immoveable.
Yea they have Rally and Vigor.
What does that even mean, what does 1vX have to do with anything?!
1vX has to do with everything, cause the people who do it know what the hell theyre talking about. Sure, they have rally and vigor, but no SPAMMABLE burst heals like a Templar.
Salmion Loreius - V16 Templar Healer
Filramo Loreius - V16 Sorcerer Tank
Callidus Est - V16 Magicka Nightblade PvP
Callius Alfeon - V4 Stamina Templar0 -
AOECAPS✭✭✭✭
DK passives increase healing they receive from vigor,rally stamplars do not. every passive and class skill in healing tree has 0 benefit for a stamplar. Only magplars have burst heals.Callidus_Est wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »
It much more tanky in compare with another "hold your ground" class - templar.leepalmer95 wrote: »
It is more "problematic":Callidus_Est wrote: »Callidus_Est wrote: »
Maybe because that's the purpose of the build? If people can literally kill under one sec, then tough heal/tank builds have right to exist at the same power level of those one shot builds.
As an another example, steel tornado hits around 6k up to 6 people in 10m radius, costs almost nothing and gains stamina for each kill + axe bleeds if caster have it, but there is no heal/shield equivalent to that power level. Only maybe Lingering Ritual but it has 2 sec cast time.
I dont thing adding more powerful defensive options to game will make players "unkillable". No one was unkillable back then when there were no wrecking blows criting for 15k. Everyone was super tanky with shield stacks, perma blocking and impen, immovable spam and all those *** but we still were dying everyday hundreds of times. Even Sheliza the (so called) Unkillable was dying lol.
Think about that for a second, the way everyone kills Templars is by CCing them. If you gave them a MAGICKA immovable, you would not be able to kill them. Every class is powerful, but you need a way to kill them. that's the problem with Sorcs right now, and that would put Templars in the same problem.
1. NBs and sorcs are OP in compare with dks and templars, so does making dks and templars OP will equalize classes?(yes, i prefer to see dks and temps buffed instead of sorcs and nbs nerfed, like rest of forum ask)
2. When dks will be fixed [especially skills like DragonBlood], dks will be on top of food chain again coz people already changed their builds to increase their survivability. With such obvious sustain fixes and promised DD capability buffed, DKs magicka dks will run Cyro again. So templars,if they won't get noticeble defensive mechanics, will be on bottom of food chain again; but now without magicka dks buddies, i.e. same situation that happened after 1.5.
3. Even this suggestion about Eclipse won't make this skill better than Blinding Flashes, and BF were removed not coz it was OP in PvP, but because it was OP in PvE(LOL?). However i agree, ability in Dawn Wrath tree should have some damage output, not to be pure defense, even Searing Light morph of BL prevoiusly had 8m aoe damage in addition to granted defense.
4. Lets be honest, BoL is only thing that keeps templars alive in Cyro, templars invested all resources to buff healing output and forced to play healers in heavy armor. 1 skill for defense is perfect example how terrible current situation with class. I won't mind such things like LoS for BoL to prevent it from abusing but giving other defensive skills. DK' with fixed DragonBlood healing output equal to Templar with Honor the Dead, but unlike templar they have scales, aoe interrupts, aoe damage mitigations(like Choking Talons), so they require to invest much less resources in defense and thats allowing them to be stronger DD than templars. DK who will invest as much resources in defense as templar forced to, will be 5 times tougher than templar.
In the end, obviously ZOS already implemented their changes and our decisions won't make any difference till we try new skills on pts.
People keep saying dk's are more 'tanky' than other classes, im curious how so?
1. They have 2 passives to restore resources. i.e. 2 passives to restore stamina allowing to hold block much-much longer. Templar has only such weird thing like Repentance
2. They have magical wings of fairy dragon called Scales. Imagine that 4 Frags or 4 Lethal Arrows flying toward you and each will hit you for 8k=32k damage in total. And pressing 1magic button making you negate this 32k damage. Even BoL looks pale in compare to this
3. They have best defensive ultimates(Standart apply damage mitigation buff on you, unlike Nova that apply only damage debuff on enemy, zero enemies in Nova=zero effect. Leap grants solid damage shield in addition to high damage and solid CC, Armor making you literally god-mode for 9 sec). Btw i imagine insane damage magicka dks will deal if one morph of Leap will be changed to deal elemental/magical damage.
4. They have aoe root skill(Choking Talons) that doing literally what Empowering Sweep ult doing for templar.
5. They can blockcasting their skills, so they don't need to hold-off block to fight enemy. Unlike templar, who dd skills are mostly channeled.
6. They probably will have back fixed DragonBlood that equal to templar Honor the Dead, i.e. evey dk again will be as good at self-healing as templar.
^^^this is more than enough to be best tanks.
You are saying DKs are better tanks than templars. That does not make them "tanky."
As long as Cyrodiil heavily favors burst damage / maneuverability and Wrobel insists on keeping ultimate tied to a cooldown, magicka DKs will not rule Cyrodiil.
Everything he listed does describe how DK's are tanky.
1. Passives help them block longer than other classes.
2. Scales reflects ranged attacks which means they don't have to break LoS or anything and can just stand there taking damage and dealing it right back. No other class has this.
3. You should check out magma armor, it caps incoming damage. No other class has this.
4. Rooting keeps enemies near them. Sorcs have this with encase.
6. Block casting keeps them alive longer. This works for any class with insta cast abilities but most of the DK's abilities are insta cast.
7. If Dragon Blood gets fixed then it will be comparable to BoL and it's cheaper which would mean they would be able to heal themselves competently without a pocket healer.
All this adds up to better tankiness. He compared much of the DK to Templars because this is a Templar thread and Templars are supposed to be somewhat tanky as well.
Blockcasting? What is this, 1.5? Here's #8 for you: a (magicka) DK actually has to theorycraft and have a specific build to attain the same sustainability any magicka templar can get from spamming puncturing sweeps. None of this makes a DK "tanky." I know DKs and templars are supposed to be "tanky" - which is a stupid ambiguous term by the way - but a sorcerer and a nightblade are better equipped to survive, let alone overcome, the various dangers this game presents as challenges.
I play a templar and have specifically told ZoS what was wrong with the class so I am in no way exagerrating their effectiveness. But the whole anarchonistic reputation that magicka DKs are just "tanky" is outdated nonsense that does nothing to clarify the state of class balance in this game.
If templars are striving to be just as "tanky" as a magicka DK, then templars standards are very low and are in for a rude awakening if ZoS ever accedes to such a request.
I'm not trying to argue that DK's are not in a bad spot. They do make good tanks though, I'm sorry if you can't see this. My entire point was that Gindri's list did point out how DK's can be tanky. I think we all want DK's and Templars to be on par with Sorcs and Nightblades but I'm not sure how arguing over this point further will help this thread out.
It's quite simple. Every time you or someone else on this forum insists that DKs are "tanky," then ZoS has one more reason to pat themselves on the back for 1.6 and maintain this stupid status quo that heavily favors burst damage and mobility which will leave DKs and Templars out in the cold again.
But, by all means, keep telling ZoS that DKs are "tanky" and that Templars should strive to such heights. Maybe they will inspired to modify Breath of Life the way they did Dragon's Blood
I apologize for pointing out some positives the DK had. I realize now that I made a grave error and that I have mislead ZOS. If this next patch turns out to be *** for DKs everywhere, then you can go ahead and blame me.
DK's are tanky.Callidus_Est wrote: »Callidus_Est wrote: »Callidus_Est wrote: »
Maybe because that's the purpose of the build? If people can literally kill under one sec, then tough heal/tank builds have right to exist at the same power level of those one shot builds.
As an another example, steel tornado hits around 6k up to 6 people in 10m radius, costs almost nothing and gains stamina for each kill + axe bleeds if caster have it, but there is no heal/shield equivalent to that power level. Only maybe Lingering Ritual but it has 2 sec cast time.
I dont thing adding more powerful defensive options to game will make players "unkillable". No one was unkillable back then when there were no wrecking blows criting for 15k. Everyone was super tanky with shield stacks, perma blocking and impen, immovable spam and all those *** but we still were dying everyday hundreds of times. Even Sheliza the (so called) Unkillable was dying lol.
Think about that for a second, the way everyone kills Templars is by CCing them. If you gave them a MAGICKA immovable, you would not be able to kill them. Every class is powerful, but you need a way to kill them. that's the problem with Sorcs right now, and that would put Templars in the same problem.
Hmmm, so stam classes that can use Immovable are "unkillable" and that's okay? But a Magicka skill that grants the same immunity to immobilizes is not okay?
Stamina builds do not have Breath of life, and tell me one "celebrity" 1vxer stam toon that uses immoveable.
Yea they have Rally and Vigor.
What does that even mean, what does 1vX have to do with anything?!
1vX has to do with everything, cause the people who do it know what the hell theyre talking about. Sure, they have rally and vigor, but no SPAMMABLE burst heals like a Templar.
5 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Most of the time, if you need that burst heal as big as it is for just yourself, you probably are as good as dead anyway. I still will contend that as templars, we will never get much else so long as we have that and I think I've decided I could do without and will play another class because I anticipate a nerf on BOL and purifying ritual, and we'll be lucky to get buffed elsewhere at all, and even if we do; it will be broken.
Just tired of getting locked out from toppling charge or it not wanting to go off. Same with Jabs. Been playing my NB and the abilities just feel more responsive. Never mind how effective they are; they just go off smoother for me.Edited by technohic on January 27, 2016 2:52AM0 -
dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Most of the time, if you need that burst heal as big as it is for just yourself, you probably are as good as dead anyway. I still will contend that as templars, we will never get much else so long as we have that and I think I've decided I could do without and will play another class because I anticipate a nerf on BOL and purifying ritual, and we'll be lucky to get buffed elsewhere at all, and even if we do; it will be broken.
Just tired of getting locked out from toppling charge or it not wanting to go off. Same with Jabs. Been playing my NB and the abilities just feel more responsive. Never mind how effective they are; they just go off smoother for me.
I agree in some respects, though I still am hopeful about Templars considering the stellar improvement that Nightblade has undergone. I also foresee a nerf on BoL and Purifying Ritual, though if they do that they really need to fix the class or it is dead.US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
<And plenty more>0 -
Essiaga✭✭✭✭The improvements to NB is the only thing that gives me hope that the Templar class can be fixed. It just a matter of if they actually understand and want to fix the class. Based on the number of nerfs the Templar received they sure don't look like they have a handle on the class or its identity aside from Healer.
I agree that "Tanky" is an obsolete term when it comes to ESO unless you're talking about shield stacking. HP, Heavy armor, etc just are not perform up to par in a CP/Uncapped game. Who knew? I wouldn't be surprised if they increased the Battle Spirit to try to balance PVP rather then actually balancing the classes. I think it's time to bring back hard/soft caps. Then maybe stamina based weapons in the hands of magicka builds to chase damage and even gain regen they lack due to stacking stats far beyond the roof wouldn't be the meta. Play your way is a thing of the past.
PTS will tell us what to look forward to for the next 8-12 month till ZOS gets around to doing anymore balancing.2 -
Zinaroth✭✭✭✭✭
✭I agree/disagree with your comments pvp yea stamplar are right at the bottoms of the poll because of broken skills passives that have no benefit for stamina Templars and for maelstrom purposes lack of mobility.but I'm group end game content my stamplar is wonderful with kena procced I'm sitting at 4700 and some change weapon damage I can sustain in boss fights without shards and just stack on DOTs with jabs. Only end game content I haven't completed it vICP and that's because synergy mechanics are a joke not only in general but on console especially and haven't got to run ICP with another DD that I know can put out damage (mostly run out groups) and the occasional group of friends I know can run the more difficult content. Pvp if at any point turns into a 1vx my stamplar gets decimated from 20NBs and ambush spam. But I think I've just gotten used to playing a gimped class that I'm use to of ping with him and PVE content is a breeze outside of maelstrom. I thought maelstrom was incredibly tough until I got on my magblade and breezed through it
What DoT effects are you stacking on with jabs? How do you proc Kena on your Stamplar?
Current magicka templars are able to pull off higher DPS numbers than stamina templars, or atleast that is what our testing has showed in the guild.
0 -
Soris✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Gotta nerf magicka templar thenI agree/disagree with your comments pvp yea stamplar are right at the bottoms of the poll because of broken skills passives that have no benefit for stamina Templars and for maelstrom purposes lack of mobility.but I'm group end game content my stamplar is wonderful with kena procced I'm sitting at 4700 and some change weapon damage I can sustain in boss fights without shards and just stack on DOTs with jabs. Only end game content I haven't completed it vICP and that's because synergy mechanics are a joke not only in general but on console especially and haven't got to run ICP with another DD that I know can put out damage (mostly run out groups) and the occasional group of friends I know can run the more difficult content. Pvp if at any point turns into a 1vx my stamplar gets decimated from 20NBs and ambush spam. But I think I've just gotten used to playing a gimped class that I'm use to of ping with him and PVE content is a breeze outside of maelstrom. I thought maelstrom was incredibly tough until I got on my magblade and breezed through it
What DoT effects are you stacking on with jabs? How do you proc Kena on your Stamplar?
Current magicka templars are able to pull off higher DPS numbers than stamina templars, or atleast that is what our testing has showed in the guild.Welkynd [Templar/AD/EU]0 -
SneaK✭✭✭✭✭Callidus_Est wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »
It much more tanky in compare with another "hold your ground" class - templar.leepalmer95 wrote: »
It is more "problematic":Callidus_Est wrote: »Callidus_Est wrote: »
Maybe because that's the purpose of the build? If people can literally kill under one sec, then tough heal/tank builds have right to exist at the same power level of those one shot builds.
As an another example, steel tornado hits around 6k up to 6 people in 10m radius, costs almost nothing and gains stamina for each kill + axe bleeds if caster have it, but there is no heal/shield equivalent to that power level. Only maybe Lingering Ritual but it has 2 sec cast time.
I dont thing adding more powerful defensive options to game will make players "unkillable". No one was unkillable back then when there were no wrecking blows criting for 15k. Everyone was super tanky with shield stacks, perma blocking and impen, immovable spam and all those *** but we still were dying everyday hundreds of times. Even Sheliza the (so called) Unkillable was dying lol.
Think about that for a second, the way everyone kills Templars is by CCing them. If you gave them a MAGICKA immovable, you would not be able to kill them. Every class is powerful, but you need a way to kill them. that's the problem with Sorcs right now, and that would put Templars in the same problem.
1. NBs and sorcs are OP in compare with dks and templars, so does making dks and templars OP will equalize classes?(yes, i prefer to see dks and temps buffed instead of sorcs and nbs nerfed, like rest of forum ask)
2. When dks will be fixed [especially skills like DragonBlood], dks will be on top of food chain again coz people already changed their builds to increase their survivability. With such obvious sustain fixes and promised DD capability buffed, DKs magicka dks will run Cyro again. So templars,if they won't get noticeble defensive mechanics, will be on bottom of food chain again; but now without magicka dks buddies, i.e. same situation that happened after 1.5.
3. Even this suggestion about Eclipse won't make this skill better than Blinding Flashes, and BF were removed not coz it was OP in PvP, but because it was OP in PvE(LOL?). However i agree, ability in Dawn Wrath tree should have some damage output, not to be pure defense, even Searing Light morph of BL prevoiusly had 8m aoe damage in addition to granted defense.
4. Lets be honest, BoL is only thing that keeps templars alive in Cyro, templars invested all resources to buff healing output and forced to play healers in heavy armor. 1 skill for defense is perfect example how terrible current situation with class. I won't mind such things like LoS for BoL to prevent it from abusing but giving other defensive skills. DK' with fixed DragonBlood healing output equal to Templar with Honor the Dead, but unlike templar they have scales, aoe interrupts, aoe damage mitigations(like Choking Talons), so they require to invest much less resources in defense and thats allowing them to be stronger DD than templars. DK who will invest as much resources in defense as templar forced to, will be 5 times tougher than templar.
In the end, obviously ZOS already implemented their changes and our decisions won't make any difference till we try new skills on pts.
People keep saying dk's are more 'tanky' than other classes, im curious how so?
1. They have 2 passives to restore resources. i.e. 2 passives to restore stamina allowing to hold block much-much longer. Templar has only such weird thing like Repentance
2. They have magical wings of fairy dragon called Scales. Imagine that 4 Frags or 4 Lethal Arrows flying toward you and each will hit you for 8k=32k damage in total. And pressing 1magic button making you negate this 32k damage. Even BoL looks pale in compare to this
3. They have best defensive ultimates(Standart apply damage mitigation buff on you, unlike Nova that apply only damage debuff on enemy, zero enemies in Nova=zero effect. Leap grants solid damage shield in addition to high damage and solid CC, Armor making you literally god-mode for 9 sec). Btw i imagine insane damage magicka dks will deal if one morph of Leap will be changed to deal elemental/magical damage.
4. They have aoe root skill(Choking Talons) that doing literally what Empowering Sweep ult doing for templar.
5. They can blockcasting their skills, so they don't need to hold-off block to fight enemy. Unlike templar, who dd skills are mostly channeled.
6. They probably will have back fixed DragonBlood that equal to templar Honor the Dead, i.e. evey dk again will be as good at self-healing as templar.
^^^this is more than enough to be best tanks.
You are saying DKs are better tanks than templars. That does not make them "tanky."
As long as Cyrodiil heavily favors burst damage / maneuverability and Wrobel insists on keeping ultimate tied to a cooldown, magicka DKs will not rule Cyrodiil.
Everything he listed does describe how DK's are tanky.
1. Passives help them block longer than other classes.
2. Scales reflects ranged attacks which means they don't have to break LoS or anything and can just stand there taking damage and dealing it right back. No other class has this.
3. You should check out magma armor, it caps incoming damage. No other class has this.
4. Rooting keeps enemies near them. Sorcs have this with encase.
6. Block casting keeps them alive longer. This works for any class with insta cast abilities but most of the DK's abilities are insta cast.
7. If Dragon Blood gets fixed then it will be comparable to BoL and it's cheaper which would mean they would be able to heal themselves competently without a pocket healer.
All this adds up to better tankiness. He compared much of the DK to Templars because this is a Templar thread and Templars are supposed to be somewhat tanky as well.
Blockcasting? What is this, 1.5? Here's #8 for you: a (magicka) DK actually has to theorycraft and have a specific build to attain the same sustainability any magicka templar can get from spamming puncturing sweeps. None of this makes a DK "tanky." I know DKs and templars are supposed to be "tanky" - which is a stupid ambiguous term by the way - but a sorcerer and a nightblade are better equipped to survive, let alone overcome, the various dangers this game presents as challenges.
I play a templar and have specifically told ZoS what was wrong with the class so I am in no way exagerrating their effectiveness. But the whole anarchonistic reputation that magicka DKs are just "tanky" is outdated nonsense that does nothing to clarify the state of class balance in this game.
If templars are striving to be just as "tanky" as a magicka DK, then templars standards are very low and are in for a rude awakening if ZoS ever accedes to such a request.
I'm not trying to argue that DK's are not in a bad spot. They do make good tanks though, I'm sorry if you can't see this. My entire point was that Gindri's list did point out how DK's can be tanky. I think we all want DK's and Templars to be on par with Sorcs and Nightblades but I'm not sure how arguing over this point further will help this thread out.
It's quite simple. Every time you or someone else on this forum insists that DKs are "tanky," then ZoS has one more reason to pat themselves on the back for 1.6 and maintain this stupid status quo that heavily favors burst damage and mobility which will leave DKs and Templars out in the cold again.
But, by all means, keep telling ZoS that DKs are "tanky" and that Templars should strive to such heights. Maybe they will inspired to modify Breath of Life the way they did Dragon's Blood
I apologize for pointing out some positives the DK had. I realize now that I made a grave error and that I have mislead ZOS. If this next patch turns out to be *** for DKs everywhere, then you can go ahead and blame me.
DK's are tanky.Callidus_Est wrote: »Callidus_Est wrote: »Callidus_Est wrote: »
Maybe because that's the purpose of the build? If people can literally kill under one sec, then tough heal/tank builds have right to exist at the same power level of those one shot builds.
As an another example, steel tornado hits around 6k up to 6 people in 10m radius, costs almost nothing and gains stamina for each kill + axe bleeds if caster have it, but there is no heal/shield equivalent to that power level. Only maybe Lingering Ritual but it has 2 sec cast time.
I dont thing adding more powerful defensive options to game will make players "unkillable". No one was unkillable back then when there were no wrecking blows criting for 15k. Everyone was super tanky with shield stacks, perma blocking and impen, immovable spam and all those *** but we still were dying everyday hundreds of times. Even Sheliza the (so called) Unkillable was dying lol.
Think about that for a second, the way everyone kills Templars is by CCing them. If you gave them a MAGICKA immovable, you would not be able to kill them. Every class is powerful, but you need a way to kill them. that's the problem with Sorcs right now, and that would put Templars in the same problem.
Hmmm, so stam classes that can use Immovable are "unkillable" and that's okay? But a Magicka skill that grants the same immunity to immobilizes is not okay?
Stamina builds do not have Breath of life, and tell me one "celebrity" 1vxer stam toon that uses immoveable.
Yea they have Rally and Vigor.
What does that even mean, what does 1vX have to do with anything?!
1vX has to do with everything, cause the people who do it know what the hell theyre talking about. Sure, they have rally and vigor, but no SPAMMABLE burst heals like a Templar.
Um, no. We were talking about an idea for a new Templar skill, not about TMZ and 1vX.
Do you even Templar, bro? If not, why are you in this thread?"IMO"Aldmeri DominionBosmer Nightblade AR 32 - Altmer Templar AR 26 - Dunmer Dragonknight AR 18 - Altmer Sorcerer AR 20 - Khajiit Dragonknight AR 18(+3 not worth mentioning, yet)1 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭bikerangelo wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »@dodgehopper_ESO -
I'm not sure what I said that gave the impression that I would disagree with anything you say. And I'm not sure why templars get all defensive when I claim that the notion that DKs are "tanky" is obsolete.
It's like they think that just because I think DKs are overrated as tanks ergo that must mean that templars are better and thus good tanks. Not at all. It simply means DKs are not as inherently tanky as is claimed and if templars aspire to emulate their alleged status as tanks, they are going to be disappointed the next patch and for another year.
So essentially, the meta of tanking has not been fulfilled by any imparticular class, or it was at one point but due to ZOS' tinkering with mechanics, the one class everyone used to associate with tanks, the DK, is now no longer at its optimal state. With that in mind, comparing Templar tanking to the DK is a misnomer as DK's now lack the ideal tanking quality they used to have or should have. Joy, correct me if I'm wrong?
As far as the Templar class goes regarding its versatility with spiritual healer, heavy armor paladin, and damage dealing cleric, there are significant drawbacks in 2 of these 3 class archetypes that restricts the Templar class from being statistically competitive with the other classes. These include subpar passives and a lack of utility that other class abilities possess, which is also something the DK possesses more of with regards to CC's and regen. Nightblades also have superior... well, everything, aside from burst healing. This is the only place Templars excel, and if ZOS remotely cared about the class, they would implement fixes and improvements across the board for Templars before even laying a finger on their healing.
But no, purges are getting nerfed, apparently Purifying Ritual is getting a direct nerf(?), and too many people are complaining about BoL, which always results in ZOS using a band-aid fix that will essentially ruin the ability, and in concurrence, the class.
Yes!
Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.2 -
Wreuntzylla✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Callidus_Est wrote: »Think about that for a second, the way everyone kills Templars is by CCing them. If you gave them a MAGICKA immovable, you would not be able to kill them.
This is simply not true.
The toughest magicka templars run reactive armor, some with radiant magelight. So, good luck bursting them down using cc unless it's GvG and your running a stamina-based assist train. If there is a magicka DK spamming talons on the reactive wearer... should probably leave and come back later.
The best way to kill a healer is to use a high percentage heal debuff. My preferred setup on an assist train in group play is reverberating bash and about 80+ points into befoul. If you realize that ESO debuffs and dots follow a FIFO system, you can bury the heal debuff (by yourself or in concert with group mates) so it takes 2+ purges or purifies to get rid of, although so few players realize they were heal debuffed it rarely matters.
Unlike FPS games, MMOs favor tactical play and typically everything has a counter. If you don't want to make compromises in your build to run that counter, that does not make the skill OP. Same thing I say to players who struggle with shield spamming sorcs but don't use shield breaker.
ZoS designed the game to be rock/paper/scissors, if you want to be rock, don't complain on the forums that paper killed you.
Edited by Wreuntzylla on January 27, 2016 8:08PM0 -
maxjapank✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Wreuntzylla wrote: »Callidus_Est wrote: »Think about that for a second, the way everyone kills Templars is by CCing them. If you gave them a MAGICKA immovable, you would not be able to kill them.
This is simply not true.
The toughest magicka templars run reactive armor, some with radiant magelight. So, good luck bursting them down using cc unless it's GvG and your running a stamina-based assist train. If there is a magicka DK spamming talons on the reactive wearer... should probably leave and come back later.
The best way to kill a healer is to use a high percentage heal debuff. My preferred setup on an assist train in group play is reverberating bash and about 80+ points into befoul. If you realize that ESO debuffs and dots follow a FIFO system, you can bury the heal debuff (by yourself or in concert with group mates) so it takes 2+ purges or purifies to get rid of, although so few players realize they were heal debuffed it rarely matters.
Unlike FPS games, MMOs favor tactical play and typically everything has a counter. If you don't want to make compromises in your build to run that counter, that does not make the skill OP. Same thing I say to players who struggle with shield spamming sorcs but don't use shield breaker.
ZoS designed the game to be rock/paper/scissors, if you want to be rock, don't complain on the forums that paper killed you.
You do know this skill is bugged, don't you?0 -
dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Wreuntzylla wrote: »Callidus_Est wrote: »Think about that for a second, the way everyone kills Templars is by CCing them. If you gave them a MAGICKA immovable, you would not be able to kill them.
This is simply not true.
The toughest magicka templars run reactive armor, some with radiant magelight. So, good luck bursting them down using cc unless it's GvG and your running a stamina-based assist train. If there is a magicka DK spamming talons on the reactive wearer... should probably leave and come back later.
The best way to kill a healer is to use a high percentage heal debuff. My preferred setup on an assist train in group play is reverberating bash and about 80+ points into befoul. If you realize that ESO debuffs and dots follow a FIFO system, you can bury the heal debuff (by yourself or in concert with group mates) so it takes 2+ purges or purifies to get rid of, although so few players realize they were heal debuffed it rarely matters.
Unlike FPS games, MMOs favor tactical play and typically everything has a counter. If you don't want to make compromises in your build to run that counter, that does not make the skill OP. Same thing I say to players who struggle with shield spamming sorcs but don't use shield breaker.
ZoS designed the game to be rock/paper/scissors, if you want to be rock, don't complain on the forums that paper killed you.
The entire balance of the game should not be built around whatever new gear set (potentially very imbalanced) they release every so often. This is what really kills the fun in pvp on a lot of MMO for me, and I've seen the pvp of many games die over this. People go to pvp to play their skills, not to match up with some crappy new gear set that is OP as hell, or is built to deal with some OP as hell game mechanics.US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
<And plenty more>4 -
Soris✭✭✭✭✭
✭That's the plaque on every mmo. When this game first came out, I thought it will be different in this one. Everyone have had access to every gear in game without weeks of grinding or relying on stupid RNGs. Then they added first dungeon sets which were cool but it should have stopped there.
With the new IC and Orsinium dropped sets and v16 crafting fiasco, game became yet another generic mmo imo.
This is hugely off-topic though.Edited by Soris on January 28, 2016 4:15PMWelkynd [Templar/AD/EU]1 -
Wreuntzylla✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You do know this skill is bugged, don't you?
Yes, but it has no bearing on the heal debuff and has to be exploited. Not sure what your point is.Do magika healers actually wear reactive armor?
Um, forget I said that. Nothing to see here.dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »The entire balance of the game should not be built around whatever new gear set (potentially very imbalanced) they release every so often. This is what really kills the fun in pvp on a lot of MMO for me, and I've seen the pvp of many games die over this. People go to pvp to play their skills, not to match up with some crappy new gear set that is OP as hell, or is built to deal with some OP as hell game mechanics.
You realize this is an MMO and not an FPS?Edited by Wreuntzylla on January 28, 2016 7:35PM0 -
Inarre✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm so tired of seeing "Templars are OP cuz BOL" in PVP BOL has been so nerfed that you have to spam it, even to reliably self heal. Spamming BOL means loss of resources and no resources means death. You can build to up your tanky-ness and or resources, but you can't do both that and damage. To be a decent templar that can both survive and sustain from what I have seen you have to forgo a lot of the builds other classes utilize (high crit/spellpower builds, full light armor etc). Because we have none of the defenses other classes utilize (mobility, CC).
Essentially in order to accomplish healing without getting nuked we have to accept we're going to focus on just that. Healing without getting nuked and be mediocre at everything else. Which is exactly how this game of rock paper scissors is. BOL isn't OP. It's the only damn thing we have.7 -
Essiaga✭✭✭✭What ZOS was thinking when asking Templars to compile a list of issues with the class...
https://youtu.be/r5g_gs6nnyo 0 -
I agree/disagree with your comments pvp yea stamplar are right at the bottoms of the poll because of broken skills passives that have no benefit for stamina Templars and for maelstrom purposes lack of mobility.but I'm group end game content my stamplar is wonderful with kena procced I'm sitting at 4700 and some change weapon damage I can sustain in boss fights without shards and just stack on DOTs with jabs. Only end game content I haven't completed it vICP and that's because synergy mechanics are a joke not only in general but on console especially and haven't got to run ICP with another DD that I know can put out damage (mostly run out groups) and the occasional group of friends I know can run the more difficult content. Pvp if at any point turns into a 1vx my stamplar gets decimated from 20NBs and ambush spam. But I think I've just gotten used to playing a gimped class that I'm use to of ping with him and PVE content is a breeze outside of maelstrom. I thought maelstrom was incredibly tough until I got on my magblade and breezed through it
What DoT effects are you stacking on with jabs? How do you proc Kena on your Stamplar?
Current magicka templars are able to pull off higher DPS numbers than stamina templars, or atleast that is what our testing has showed in the guild.
Are you basing this on Bloodspawn? Because that test leans heavily towards magika builds. My stamplar does significantly more damage in PvP compared with my magika build which pulls 18k DPS on Bloodspawn.Edited by MikeTheeElder on February 6, 2016 12:59PM0 -
Purifying light and power of light are useless against shields. Even though my tool tip says 23k max damage, against shield stacking sorcs, it procs for 19 damage. 19, get rekt!
Considering changes were made that healing based on damage now count against damage vs shields, I consider this skill broken for pvp....and considering how half of pvp are sorcs, this needs to be fixed.2