Greetings ESO Forum Posters

Ffastyl

Good post, but I'm going to quote the part that resonates most with me:

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

9) I'm reiterating this but it deserves being restated. Make Health the proper stat of tanks. Either give a much stronger multiplier on this attribute or build derived stats around it that can lower block costs, rolling costs, reduce fatigue from running, etc. Consider possibly enhancing armor/sr with this stat as well, or actually reducing the cost of 'tanking' powers with health instead of stam/magicka. There are many ways to go about it, but right now the game is way too much about being a DPS. The design of the game right now is mostly about putting in as little health as possible without getting one-shot or dead by lag.

I have been Heavy Armor since I started, with brief forays into Medium Armor for better DPS (see my post on buffing Heavy Armor, post #336), experiencing the rise and fall of platemail as a viable option. It started as something with a lot of armor and little else, then buffed to include a little resource regeneration, melee damage boost and break free cost reduction. Most of those buffs are gone now, leaving Heavy Armor with a little more protection than the other types and less resource regeneration than it used to have (the cooldown on Constitution was increased). Templar used to be a very enjoyable Heavy Armor Stamina build, even in pre-1.6 days: higher Health gave Blazing Shield both substance and impact and Blinding Light granted the passive evasion both Templars and Dragonknights are lacking right now.

I have not looked thoroughly into when the whining about both classes ceasing to be tanky started, but I do notice it was around the time both classes lost their Miss chances - lost their evasion.

Now, I am going to go into detail about my old build from pre-1.5, to show what Heavy Armor could accomplish and the type of build I enjoyed. These numbers will be as accurate as my memory and screenshots will allow and very different from the current numbers since stats were ~x10ed in Update 6.

7/7 Heavy Armor
5x Willow's Path (Magicka Regen, Stamina Regen, Health Regen, All Regen +15%)
3x Ashen Grip (Max Health, Weapon Damage)
4x Ashen Grip w/ Shield (Weapon Critical)

Max Magicka Max Health Max Stamina Spell Critical Spell Power Spell Resistance

1471 2426 1975 12% 97 2105*

Magicka Recovery Health Recovery Stamina Recovery Weapon Critical Weapon Power Armor

77 117* 111 12% 193 2226*

*soft capped
Max Health is without Battle Spirit

At the highest buffed values I can recall, my stats were:

Max Magicka Max Health Max Stamina Spell Critical Spell Power Spell Resistance

1471 2426 1975 12% 110 2105*

Magicka Recovery Health Recovery Stamina Recovery Weapon Critical Weapon Power Armor

112 195* 195* 15% 216* 2226*

In PvP, I used Blinding Light and Low Slash as my only defensive abilities. Today, I use Immovable, Low Slash, Purifying Ritual and Rally. Two more defensive abilities in use yet my survival rate has gone down dramatically compared to my pre-1.6 build. Some of the nuances of why are explained in my Buff Heavy Armor post above. But the biggest change was the loss of Blinding Light - a 50% Miss chance to enemies in melee range. Yes, it was overpowered, that's why Radiant Destruction replaced it when enough people cried for a Templar execute, but with it and the stat balancing of the day, I did not need to debuff my enemies beyond the Miss chance. Low Slash was for the singular purpose of a snare to keep enemies in melee range, it was not necessary for damage reduction like today. In my last duel before Update 6, my opponent remarked my Health did not drop below 50% at any point in the fight.

In recent PvE escapades, I compared using Unstoppable (Major Resolve and Major Ward) against Shuffle (Major Evasion) with 7/7 Heavy Armor in soloing Craglorn. To my surprised disappointment, my Health stayed near full while using Shuffle and near or below half when using Unstoppable. Evasion is a big tool in the tanking classes' arsenals. They need it back.


To provide an overview of what changes I notice contributing to the decline of Heavy Armor rather than type another page or two:

• Battle Spirit changed from +500 Health and +500 Armor Penetration to +5000 Health, -50% Damage Taken, -50% Healing Taken and -50% Damage Shield Capacity
• Soft cap removal led to a meta shift toward Armor Penetration and stacking damage
• Removal of Stamina Regeneration while blocking
• Hard cap of 50% damage reduction
• Hard cap requires Legendary Reinforced armor in addition to Major Resolve and Major Ward

These items do not affect Heavy Armor alone but they have, collectively, turned our metal suits to scrap.
While I do like the aim of some changes (No regeneration while blocking adds more skill), they have taken the defense and offense out of using plate. To briefly go into a few:

To make armor worthwhile, Resistances need to be at or near the hard cap. Damage is too high for the tradeoff in resource management and offense otherwise. The prolific use of Sharpened Mauls and like setups makes maintaining this Resistance nigh impossible without going considerably over the hard cap. The difficulty of which it takes to reach the hard cap exacerbates this problem. A possible fix is to raise the mitigation percentage cap to 60% or as high as 80% while keeping the required value (32,500 according to most recent player testing) the same. While drastic, a hard cap of 90% mitigation is not out of the question. 50% has become too low for the current damage levels rampant in PvP and becoming rampant in PvE.

The alterations to Battle Spirit over the course of the game's lifespan has been indicative of the rising power and limits of the players. We are finding ways to create imbalanced and lopsided builds faster than the Devs can analyze and fix them, leading to this broad stroke fix for PvP. Pre-1.6 Battle Spirit increased our offense. Numbers were balanced around PvP with soft-caps so only a minor tweak was needed for the transition from PvE to PvP. The removal of soft caps has thrown that fine tuned balance to Oblivion.

I am not going to blame ZOS for removing soft caps -- it was by popular request of the players. At the time of Update 6's launch, I do not think any of us foresaw how much we shattered ESO's statistical balance. PvE has been rectified, tweaking monster stats and AI to compensate for the increased power of players. PvP may be beyond saving without soft caps of another major overhaul.
It may be just a temporary and rushed fix but I think hard caps are in order for all stats if the Devs want to buy time for an overhaul of statistical balance. And even that will require a lesser overhaul as PvE has been rebalanced around the lack of caps.


In the meantime, I am going to keep playing ESO, keep experimenting with my niche builds and keep looking for the minor changes that had a major impact on balance and power creep.

Safe roads, soft beds and full flagons to you.
Eight guide our steps.

Darnathian

This is funny watching people post suggestions when they DGAF. He literally created a account to appease his bosses because of all the feedback we provided. They will do none of these changes unless it coincides with their agenda.

I have a message for them. When this game shuts down, don't think gamers will forget the names of people that treated the player base like this.

Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me. Will not go for it. I see right through these smoke mirrors.

magictucktuck

Dk-make unstable flame give no DOT and make it just hit harder with initial flame damage as dots are not doing we'll and they need a spamable.

Templar- make sun shield stronger as it's kinda worthless now and I suppose it's only fair to make the dk shield stronger also.

Sorc- give one stam morph as a damage ability I mean we could do crystal morph but then it would just be wreaking blow basically. A pet would be nice to make use of hunt set or some kinda lightning punch... Mages fury make one morph no longer execute but now 5m range and instant flat lightning flat damage that scales off stamina.


Thanks @wrobel you're the man!

prootch

Would really like to know when they intent to nerf this stincky tornadoe steel in pvp... it's turning out to be the only meta left in cyro groups...

Jitterbug

Darnathian wrote: »

This is funny watching people post suggestions when they DGAF. He literally created a account to appease his bosses because of all the feedback we provided. They will do none of these changes unless it coincides with their agenda.

I have a message for them. When this game shuts down, don't think gamers will forget the names of people that treated the player base like this.

Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me. Will not go for it. I see right through these smoke mirrors.

Shame on who when they fool you for 2 years running then?

ankhor8

Junkogen wrote: »

1. Argonian racial passives. They need either 6% max magicka or max stamina in addition to the 6% max health. Max stats are what matter in a soft cap free game design. Right now they have the most marginally useful passives. For instance, races with max magicka not only have more magicka but also more powerful spells. Therefore, races with max magicka can heal better because their spells are stronger. The Argonian racial passives are a travesty. They look like they could be useful, but they're far inferior to other racials that have much more utility.

Look around at builds. Nobody recommends Argonians for anything. That should trouble you guys, but it doesn't. Time and again, Argonian players have been ignored. Swim speed? Marginally useful. A racial linked to a consumable? Tripots are powerful enough. Not only that, but no other racial costs so much to maintain. It's ridiculous. Healing received? Again, marginally useful. Racials that give max stat bonuses increase healing done and healing received. You see, the Argonian passives are smoke and mirrors, like someone took a dump in a box and dressed it up with wrapping paper and a bow. Fact is it's still crap.

Please stop ignoring us. We're tired of feeling like we're handicapped playing as Argonians. You changed the game by removing soft caps then you ninja nerfed the Argonian Nightblade synergy. You didn't even have the decency to put it in the patch notes. You all acted like it never existed and left us with inferiority that continues to this day. You've changed the Nords, Khajiit, Bosmer, and Orc passives to make them more useful, but, for some reason, you've kept the Argonian passives as is. Adding a couple percentage points doesn't make them better. They're still hindered by how limiting they are. How come you guys won't acknowledge what the entire player base knows: Argonians got the shaft.

Argonians have traditionally been portrayed as sneak thieves, worshippers of Sithis. Why not make them the best magicka-based assassins? There are so many stamina-based races, but only 3 magicka races. The factions are imbalanced. The only two stealth races are in the same faction. Two "tanky" races and the 3rd best magicka race are in the Ebonheart Pact. DC is the only faction that looks somewhat balanced. 4% damage increase to Orcs and you leave Argonians as is? Orcs have 6% boost to stamina and health, 4% damage increase, increased speed, increased regen? Are you guys absolutely batcrap crazy? It makes me think that you don't know how your own game works. Max stamina and magicka not only give more uses to abilities it also makes them stronger by how damage is calculated in this game.

Please stop ignoring Argonians players. We're not just whining for no reason. We have a legitimate gripe and we'd like you to acknowledge it and actually do something substantive to fix our racial passives. You've done it for every other race. Now do it for us. Please.

Thank you.

Greetings Marsh Kin @Junkogen
I respect your strong enthusiasm towards the improvement of our people attributes, yet remember we are a regenerative healing based species. Our attributes are best focused around these truths. Of course percentages may be increased and buffs added, the fact is all may petition for that. Comparing others to us is unsuggested because all may do that based on personal desires for character improvement. We are unique and have a niche. It's up to us to wisely utilize our unique stats. I am still learning and applying, defeating and dying.
I am confident, that we will be the dominant type once we apply our environment, inventory tools, skills and weapons in that correct mix of personal pleasure and accurate combat mechanics.
In short, I respect your strong want for us to improve, I encourage you to trust we have what we need and will improve by wise application.
Stay Moist
Kota-Sax-Blood

Hydrocodone

When are or do you plan to do some class balance? For those that don't want to play a lowlife sneak/thief or necromancer ? Play how you want and be gimped and exploited. The threads about class balance have all faded because they gave up and stop d playing or rerolled to an easy mode class. I enjoy the combat system it's just too bad you favor 1 style of gameplay.

Junkogen

ankhor8 wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

1. Argonian racial passives. They need either 6% max magicka or max stamina in addition to the 6% max health. Max stats are what matter in a soft cap free game design. Right now they have the most marginally useful passives. For instance, races with max magicka not only have more magicka but also more powerful spells. Therefore, races with max magicka can heal better because their spells are stronger. The Argonian racial passives are a travesty. They look like they could be useful, but they're far inferior to other racials that have much more utility.

Look around at builds. Nobody recommends Argonians for anything. That should trouble you guys, but it doesn't. Time and again, Argonian players have been ignored. Swim speed? Marginally useful. A racial linked to a consumable? Tripots are powerful enough. Not only that, but no other racial costs so much to maintain. It's ridiculous. Healing received? Again, marginally useful. Racials that give max stat bonuses increase healing done and healing received. You see, the Argonian passives are smoke and mirrors, like someone took a dump in a box and dressed it up with wrapping paper and a bow. Fact is it's still crap.

Please stop ignoring us. We're tired of feeling like we're handicapped playing as Argonians. You changed the game by removing soft caps then you ninja nerfed the Argonian Nightblade synergy. You didn't even have the decency to put it in the patch notes. You all acted like it never existed and left us with inferiority that continues to this day. You've changed the Nords, Khajiit, Bosmer, and Orc passives to make them more useful, but, for some reason, you've kept the Argonian passives as is. Adding a couple percentage points doesn't make them better. They're still hindered by how limiting they are. How come you guys won't acknowledge what the entire player base knows: Argonians got the shaft.

Argonians have traditionally been portrayed as sneak thieves, worshippers of Sithis. Why not make them the best magicka-based assassins? There are so many stamina-based races, but only 3 magicka races. The factions are imbalanced. The only two stealth races are in the same faction. Two "tanky" races and the 3rd best magicka race are in the Ebonheart Pact. DC is the only faction that looks somewhat balanced. 4% damage increase to Orcs and you leave Argonians as is? Orcs have 6% boost to stamina and health, 4% damage increase, increased speed, increased regen? Are you guys absolutely batcrap crazy? It makes me think that you don't know how your own game works. Max stamina and magicka not only give more uses to abilities it also makes them stronger by how damage is calculated in this game.

Please stop ignoring Argonians players. We're not just whining for no reason. We have a legitimate gripe and we'd like you to acknowledge it and actually do something substantive to fix our racial passives. You've done it for every other race. Now do it for us. Please.

Thank you.

Greetings Marsh Kin @Junkogen
I respect your strong enthusiasm towards the improvement of our people attributes, yet remember we are a regenerative healing based species. Our attributes are best focused around these truths. Of course percentages may be increased and buffs added, the fact is all may petition for that. Comparing others to us is unsuggested because all may do that based on personal desires for character improvement. We are unique and have a niche. It's up to use to wisely utilize our unique stats. I am still learning and applying, defeating and dying.
I am confident, that we will be the dominant type once we apply our environment, inventory tools, skills and weapons in that correct mix of personal pleasure and accurate combat mechanics.
In short, I respect your strong want for us to improve, I encourage you to trust we have what we need and will improve by wise application.
Stay Moist
Kota-Sax-Blood

I disagree strongly. Our passives are absolute kwama poo. You must tell your build if you think it is better than the rest. If you wish to keep it secret then pm me. I just don't see how you can think what we have is anywhere near what the other races have.

I know you're trying to reassure me, but it's having the opposite effect. It irritates me because they read feedback like yours and think everything is okay. It's not.

Also, why do Argonians have to be built around health regeneration? No other races are built around their special racial ability from Skyrim. Do khajiits have night vision? Do Bosmer have an animal affinity? No. In fact, a lot of the passives are departures from previous games because they would suck in an MMO. So why do Argonians have to be soul tethered to one ability from Skyrim? They don't. What Argonians have now is not competitive in this MMO. What works in a single player game does not work here. My suggestions are 110% compatible with lore and would actually make Argonians of some use.

Cherryblossom

Cherryblossom wrote: »

@Wrobel

Whilst I like the idea, myself and I'd imagine many others will take this with a pinch of Salt!

We have many Threads in the Developer area which have been created based upon the same idea, many of which will contain the same information that many are posting here!

The problem with those threads are that after an intial small response there was no further input from the team, I really hope this does signal an end to the lack of communication.

it would seem sadly that this did not signal the end to a lack of communication.

I'm sure you mentioned feedback! We seem to be the only ones giving feedback, however we are doing it from a position of not knowing all the data. I'm hoping you do, so it would be nice if you actually gave feedback based upon what you actually know.

Gunphu

Stop nerfing and start buffing Templar DPS. First step would be to make Balanced Warrior increase Spell damage aswell. The class is either a healing bot or a straight joke.

Sincerly,
A very concerned NB.

AfkNinja

1.) Fix Templar bugs with Toppling Charge/Jabs/RD and passives that don't work. EX let healing passives work on stamina heals for Stamplar. Let burning light proc on any hit of Jabs at a true 25%.

2.) Add Major Fracture to Binging Javelin and increase dmg slightly to compare with Aurora Javelin.

3.) Make Dark Flare harder to avoid/block (increase projectile speed) and lower channel time.

dodgehopper_ESO

Ffastyl wrote: »

Good post, but I'm going to quote the part that resonates most with me:

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

9) I'm reiterating this but it deserves being restated. Make Health the proper stat of tanks. Either give a much stronger multiplier on this attribute or build derived stats around it that can lower block costs, rolling costs, reduce fatigue from running, etc. Consider possibly enhancing armor/sr with this stat as well, or actually reducing the cost of 'tanking' powers with health instead of stam/magicka. There are many ways to go about it, but right now the game is way too much about being a DPS. The design of the game right now is mostly about putting in as little health as possible without getting one-shot or dead by lag.

I have been Heavy Armor since I started, with brief forays into Medium Armor for better DPS (see my post on buffing Heavy Armor, post #336), experiencing the rise and fall of platemail as a viable option. It started as something with a lot of armor and little else, then buffed to include a little resource regeneration, melee damage boost and break free cost reduction. Most of those buffs are gone now, leaving Heavy Armor with a little more protection than the other types and less resource regeneration than it used to have (the cooldown on Constitution was increased). Templar used to be a very enjoyable Heavy Armor Stamina build, even in pre-1.6 days: higher Health gave Blazing Shield both substance and impact and Blinding Light granted the passive evasion both Templars and Dragonknights are lacking right now.

I have not looked thoroughly into when the whining about both classes ceasing to be tanky started, but I do notice it was around the time both classes lost their Miss chances - lost their evasion.

Now, I am going to go into detail about my old build from pre-1.5, to show what Heavy Armor could accomplish and the type of build I enjoyed. These numbers will be as accurate as my memory and screenshots will allow and very different from the current numbers since stats were ~x10ed in Update 6.

7/7 Heavy Armor
5x Willow's Path (Magicka Regen, Stamina Regen, Health Regen, All Regen +15%)
3x Ashen Grip (Max Health, Weapon Damage)
4x Ashen Grip w/ Shield (Weapon Critical)

Max Magicka Max Health Max Stamina Spell Critical Spell Power Spell Resistance

1471 2426 1975 12% 97 2105*

Magicka Recovery Health Recovery Stamina Recovery Weapon Critical Weapon Power Armor

77 117* 111 12% 193 2226*

*soft capped
Max Health is without Battle Spirit

At the highest buffed values I can recall, my stats were:

Max Magicka Max Health Max Stamina Spell Critical Spell Power Spell Resistance

1471 2426 1975 12% 110 2105*

Magicka Recovery Health Recovery Stamina Recovery Weapon Critical Weapon Power Armor

112 195* 195* 15% 216* 2226*

In PvP, I used Blinding Light and Low Slash as my only defensive abilities. Today, I use Immovable, Low Slash, Purifying Ritual and Rally. Two more defensive abilities in use yet my survival rate has gone down dramatically compared to my pre-1.6 build. Some of the nuances of why are explained in my Buff Heavy Armor post above. But the biggest change was the loss of Blinding Light - a 50% Miss chance to enemies in melee range. Yes, it was overpowered, that's why Radiant Destruction replaced it when enough people cried for a Templar execute, but with it and the stat balancing of the day, I did not need to debuff my enemies beyond the Miss chance. Low Slash was for the singular purpose of a snare to keep enemies in melee range, it was not necessary for damage reduction like today. In my last duel before Update 6, my opponent remarked my Health did not drop below 50% at any point in the fight.

In recent PvE escapades, I compared using Unstoppable (Major Resolve and Major Ward) against Shuffle (Major Evasion) with 7/7 Heavy Armor in soloing Craglorn. To my surprised disappointment, my Health stayed near full while using Shuffle and near or below half when using Unstoppable. Evasion is a big tool in the tanking classes' arsenals. They need it back.


To provide an overview of what changes I notice contributing to the decline of Heavy Armor rather than type another page or two:

• Battle Spirit changed from +500 Health and +500 Armor Penetration to +5000 Health, -50% Damage Taken, -50% Healing Taken and -50% Damage Shield Capacity
• Soft cap removal led to a meta shift toward Armor Penetration and stacking damage
• Removal of Stamina Regeneration while blocking
• Hard cap of 50% damage reduction
• Hard cap requires Legendary Reinforced armor in addition to Major Resolve and Major Ward

These items do not affect Heavy Armor alone but they have, collectively, turned our metal suits to scrap.
While I do like the aim of some changes (No regeneration while blocking adds more skill), they have taken the defense and offense out of using plate. To briefly go into a few:

To make armor worthwhile, Resistances need to be at or near the hard cap. Damage is too high for the tradeoff in resource management and offense otherwise. The prolific use of Sharpened Mauls and like setups makes maintaining this Resistance nigh impossible without going considerably over the hard cap. The difficulty of which it takes to reach the hard cap exacerbates this problem. A possible fix is to raise the mitigation percentage cap to 60% or as high as 80% while keeping the required value (32,500 according to most recent player testing) the same. While drastic, a hard cap of 90% mitigation is not out of the question. 50% has become too low for the current damage levels rampant in PvP and becoming rampant in PvE.

The alterations to Battle Spirit over the course of the game's lifespan has been indicative of the rising power and limits of the players. We are finding ways to create imbalanced and lopsided builds faster than the Devs can analyze and fix them, leading to this broad stroke fix for PvP. Pre-1.6 Battle Spirit increased our offense. Numbers were balanced around PvP with soft-caps so only a minor tweak was needed for the transition from PvE to PvP. The removal of soft caps has thrown that fine tuned balance to Oblivion.

I am not going to blame ZOS for removing soft caps -- it was by popular request of the players. At the time of Update 6's launch, I do not think any of us foresaw how much we shattered ESO's statistical balance. PvE has been rectified, tweaking monster stats and AI to compensate for the increased power of players. PvP may be beyond saving without soft caps of another major overhaul.
It may be just a temporary and rushed fix but I think hard caps are in order for all stats if the Devs want to buy time for an overhaul of statistical balance. And even that will require a lesser overhaul as PvE has been rebalanced around the lack of caps.


In the meantime, I am going to keep playing ESO, keep experimenting with my niche builds and keep looking for the minor changes that had a major impact on balance and power creep.

Safe roads, soft beds and full flagons to you.
Eight guide our steps.

Wow, @Ffastyl , you have really summed up a lot of my thoughts about the imbalance issues very well. I was never comfortable with them getting away from soft caps. I've seen such things happen in other games and it never ended well. Soft caps are a form of checks and balances against power creep, or they are at least often a good way to maintain balance. My concerns are definitely more PVP biased but I think the balance issues are very similar between pvp and pve actually, apart from what one would call 'major bosses' in pve. At any regard I think what you said is spot on.

dodgehopper_ESO

Junkogen wrote: »

ankhor8 wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

1. Argonian racial passives. They need either 6% max magicka or max stamina in addition to the 6% max health. Max stats are what matter in a soft cap free game design. Right now they have the most marginally useful passives. For instance, races with max magicka not only have more magicka but also more powerful spells. Therefore, races with max magicka can heal better because their spells are stronger. The Argonian racial passives are a travesty. They look like they could be useful, but they're far inferior to other racials that have much more utility.

Look around at builds. Nobody recommends Argonians for anything. That should trouble you guys, but it doesn't. Time and again, Argonian players have been ignored. Swim speed? Marginally useful. A racial linked to a consumable? Tripots are powerful enough. Not only that, but no other racial costs so much to maintain. It's ridiculous. Healing received? Again, marginally useful. Racials that give max stat bonuses increase healing done and healing received. You see, the Argonian passives are smoke and mirrors, like someone took a dump in a box and dressed it up with wrapping paper and a bow. Fact is it's still crap.

Please stop ignoring us. We're tired of feeling like we're handicapped playing as Argonians. You changed the game by removing soft caps then you ninja nerfed the Argonian Nightblade synergy. You didn't even have the decency to put it in the patch notes. You all acted like it never existed and left us with inferiority that continues to this day. You've changed the Nords, Khajiit, Bosmer, and Orc passives to make them more useful, but, for some reason, you've kept the Argonian passives as is. Adding a couple percentage points doesn't make them better. They're still hindered by how limiting they are. How come you guys won't acknowledge what the entire player base knows: Argonians got the shaft.

Argonians have traditionally been portrayed as sneak thieves, worshippers of Sithis. Why not make them the best magicka-based assassins? There are so many stamina-based races, but only 3 magicka races. The factions are imbalanced. The only two stealth races are in the same faction. Two "tanky" races and the 3rd best magicka race are in the Ebonheart Pact. DC is the only faction that looks somewhat balanced. 4% damage increase to Orcs and you leave Argonians as is? Orcs have 6% boost to stamina and health, 4% damage increase, increased speed, increased regen? Are you guys absolutely batcrap crazy? It makes me think that you don't know how your own game works. Max stamina and magicka not only give more uses to abilities it also makes them stronger by how damage is calculated in this game.

Please stop ignoring Argonians players. We're not just whining for no reason. We have a legitimate gripe and we'd like you to acknowledge it and actually do something substantive to fix our racial passives. You've done it for every other race. Now do it for us. Please.

Thank you.

Greetings Marsh Kin @Junkogen
I respect your strong enthusiasm towards the improvement of our people attributes, yet remember we are a regenerative healing based species. Our attributes are best focused around these truths. Of course percentages may be increased and buffs added, the fact is all may petition for that. Comparing others to us is unsuggested because all may do that based on personal desires for character improvement. We are unique and have a niche. It's up to use to wisely utilize our unique stats. I am still learning and applying, defeating and dying.
I am confident, that we will be the dominant type once we apply our environment, inventory tools, skills and weapons in that correct mix of personal pleasure and accurate combat mechanics.
In short, I respect your strong want for us to improve, I encourage you to trust we have what we need and will improve by wise application.
Stay Moist
Kota-Sax-Blood

I disagree strongly. Our passives are absolute kwama poo. You must tell your build if you think it is better than the rest. If you wish to keep it secret then pm me. I just don't see how you can think what we have is anywhere near what the other races have.

I know you're trying to reassure me, but it's having the opposite effect. It irritates me because they read feedback like yours and think everything is okay. It's not.

Also, why do Argonians have to be built around health regeneration? No other races are built around their special racial ability from Skyrim. Do khajiits have night vision? Do Bosmer have an animal affinity? No. In fact, a lot of the passives are departures from previous games because they would suck in an MMO. So why do Argonians have to be soul tethered to one ability from Skyrim? They don't. What Argonians have now is not competitive in this MMO. What works in a single player game does not work here. My suggestions are 110% compatible with lore and would actually make Argonians of some use.

Didn't you have a forum thread that suggested health regeneration that was increased based upon injury level? I thought that was a really cool idea @Junkogen. I love my Argonian, I just wish he had Stealthy and better regeneration. Actually in my view they should have the absolute best regeneration. I find it ironic that Nords, Orcs and Khajiit outdo them in this front, and I find it sad that bosmer and khajiit are empirically more sneaky. My Argonian NB build has changed so much since the beginning of the game, but I will say if I use the right self heals he actually does maintain a pretty strong regeneration rate. I agree with you though that Argonian balancing really isn't done yet.

ADarklore

@Wrobel Eric, perhaps one area ZOS should focus on is figuring out how there seems to be so much disparity between what the devs are seeing, damage wise, and what players are seeing. We have devs, yourself included, making statements about abilities doing high damage (ala Wall of Elements "melts") but in the hands of players, it does nothing of the sort.

I know over at DCUO, for years they had this huge disparity between what devs saw and what players saw, and they discovered in the end that some abilities gave higher damage depending on the proximity to target. Thus, depending on whether you played melee, mid-range or range, different results came into play. Right now they are doing a complete combat pass adding mid-range capabilities to all abilities that are capable of hitting from distance... thus there will be more consistency of damage depending on your distance to target.

I have no idea if this could be an issue, but there definitely needs to be a way to figure this out. If YOU are seeing that an ability 'melts' enemies, players should also be able to easily see this as well- but as of now, they do not. Clearly there are many variables in each individual build, but there really should be a method developed so that those on PTS or even live can apply those same testing methods to their own builds to achieve the same results you are showing. Doing this would go a long way to curb all the unnecessary nerfs that have been occurring and maybe even get us some needed buffs to abilities that are in dire need- which will help players be a bit more diverse instead of being forced into cookie cutter builds.

Thanks Eric!!

Junkogen

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

ankhor8 wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

1. Argonian racial passives. They need either 6% max magicka or max stamina in addition to the 6% max health. Max stats are what matter in a soft cap free game design. Right now they have the most marginally useful passives. For instance, races with max magicka not only have more magicka but also more powerful spells. Therefore, races with max magicka can heal better because their spells are stronger. The Argonian racial passives are a travesty. They look like they could be useful, but they're far inferior to other racials that have much more utility.

Look around at builds. Nobody recommends Argonians for anything. That should trouble you guys, but it doesn't. Time and again, Argonian players have been ignored. Swim speed? Marginally useful. A racial linked to a consumable? Tripots are powerful enough. Not only that, but no other racial costs so much to maintain. It's ridiculous. Healing received? Again, marginally useful. Racials that give max stat bonuses increase healing done and healing received. You see, the Argonian passives are smoke and mirrors, like someone took a dump in a box and dressed it up with wrapping paper and a bow. Fact is it's still crap.

Please stop ignoring us. We're tired of feeling like we're handicapped playing as Argonians. You changed the game by removing soft caps then you ninja nerfed the Argonian Nightblade synergy. You didn't even have the decency to put it in the patch notes. You all acted like it never existed and left us with inferiority that continues to this day. You've changed the Nords, Khajiit, Bosmer, and Orc passives to make them more useful, but, for some reason, you've kept the Argonian passives as is. Adding a couple percentage points doesn't make them better. They're still hindered by how limiting they are. How come you guys won't acknowledge what the entire player base knows: Argonians got the shaft.

Argonians have traditionally been portrayed as sneak thieves, worshippers of Sithis. Why not make them the best magicka-based assassins? There are so many stamina-based races, but only 3 magicka races. The factions are imbalanced. The only two stealth races are in the same faction. Two "tanky" races and the 3rd best magicka race are in the Ebonheart Pact. DC is the only faction that looks somewhat balanced. 4% damage increase to Orcs and you leave Argonians as is? Orcs have 6% boost to stamina and health, 4% damage increase, increased speed, increased regen? Are you guys absolutely batcrap crazy? It makes me think that you don't know how your own game works. Max stamina and magicka not only give more uses to abilities it also makes them stronger by how damage is calculated in this game.

Please stop ignoring Argonians players. We're not just whining for no reason. We have a legitimate gripe and we'd like you to acknowledge it and actually do something substantive to fix our racial passives. You've done it for every other race. Now do it for us. Please.

Thank you.

Greetings Marsh Kin @Junkogen
I respect your strong enthusiasm towards the improvement of our people attributes, yet remember we are a regenerative healing based species. Our attributes are best focused around these truths. Of course percentages may be increased and buffs added, the fact is all may petition for that. Comparing others to us is unsuggested because all may do that based on personal desires for character improvement. We are unique and have a niche. It's up to use to wisely utilize our unique stats. I am still learning and applying, defeating and dying.
I am confident, that we will be the dominant type once we apply our environment, inventory tools, skills and weapons in that correct mix of personal pleasure and accurate combat mechanics.
In short, I respect your strong want for us to improve, I encourage you to trust we have what we need and will improve by wise application.
Stay Moist
Kota-Sax-Blood

I disagree strongly. Our passives are absolute kwama poo. You must tell your build if you think it is better than the rest. If you wish to keep it secret then pm me. I just don't see how you can think what we have is anywhere near what the other races have.

I know you're trying to reassure me, but it's having the opposite effect. It irritates me because they read feedback like yours and think everything is okay. It's not.

Also, why do Argonians have to be built around health regeneration? No other races are built around their special racial ability from Skyrim. Do khajiits have night vision? Do Bosmer have an animal affinity? No. In fact, a lot of the passives are departures from previous games because they would suck in an MMO. So why do Argonians have to be soul tethered to one ability from Skyrim? They don't. What Argonians have now is not competitive in this MMO. What works in a single player game does not work here. My suggestions are 110% compatible with lore and would actually make Argonians of some use.

Didn't you have a forum thread that suggested health regeneration that was increased based upon injury level? I thought that was a really cool idea @Junkogen. I love my Argonian, I just wish he had Stealthy and better regeneration. Actually in my view they should have the absolute best regeneration. I find it ironic that Nords, Orcs and Khajiit outdo them in this front, and I find it sad that bosmer and khajiit are empirically more sneaky. My Argonian NB build has changed so much since the beginning of the game, but I will say if I use the right self heals he actually does maintain a pretty strong regeneration rate. I agree with you though that Argonian balancing really isn't done yet.

I have never advocated for more regen. I loathe the idea and curse the histskin ability from Skyrim for ruining Argonians in ESO. Actually, they say Argonians are supposed to be regeneration-centered but then give them no regen. They just gave them passives that make no sense. They screwed up Argonians so hard and show no signs of fixing them. It'll be a hot day in Coldharbor before they admit they messed up.

We agree on some sort of stealth bonus but I envision them as magicka-based assassins. Make them the best magicka NB. They're perfect for it.

newtinmpls

Junkogen wrote: »

I know you're trying to reassure me, but it's having the opposite effect. It irritates me because they read feedback like yours and think everything is okay. It's not.
.

I really don't think anyone can be that stupid - as to think that things are actually okay.

Yes, they do use it to justify what they have already decided to do - but that's not anything that feedback will change. I give honest thoughts about what is happening and what I like/dislike/think would make things better. Then I let it go.

The money side of ESO has very little relation to the player experience side, and expecting otherwise is just going to lead to an early heart attack. It's not worth it.

MaxwellC

All right let's give it a go @Wrobel

1. Dragon Knights need more Staminia Morphs especially a Stamina Flame lash whip.
2. Fix the broken abilities with DK example DK ultimates not fully registering which consumes the ultimate without going actually doing anything. Molten armaments not procing when it should (enemy below threshold required health) because it's off an on. Dragon fires scales and DKs main reflective scales skill not reflecting projectiles when it should (Wings up projectiles reflected damage still taken or comet hits right as wings go up)
3. Either buff the regeneration DKs get because it was already nerf'd or improve the much needed heavy armor passive a as they are laughably horrible. I suggest giving Staminia regen since blocking with Stam regen is gone now also remove rapid mending bracing and increase juggernaut. By remove I mean rethink a better one because those are the laughably bad ones as they do nothing for you unless you main a shield.

Thanks again!

Helluin

@Wrobel

1) Is there a chance to add a single target melee class stamina morph (NB) or melee weapon skill (not staves) morph or melee new skill line (Thieves Guild for example) morph dealing poison or disease or magic damage?

In game atm infact we miss a direct melee single target damage (not a finisher or a DoT) dealing poison or disease or magic damage.
We have 1 bow skill (both morphs), 2 bow morphs dealing poison damage, 1 NB stamina finisher and 1 NB stamina AoE dealing magic damage.

Because of this and because of players investing a lot into Hardy, a stamina NB player who wants to spec into Thaumaturge instead of Mighty is missing a melee skill (so not a projectile) that can use as main attack.
The same applies to every class with poison morphs of bow.

Stamina DK players interested into Elemental Expert are in a similar situation but missing one finisher and one ranged skill.
These kinds of skills are not part of the DK's tool by design but they are quite limited like NB and who wants to use the poison skills and morphs of Bow.

At the same time we have to consider that there is the understandable request of changing into physical damage something of Nightblade (Killer's Blade, Power Extraction, at least one morph of an ultimate, the Assassin's Will of Relentless Focus) but at least skills from dual wield and two-handed can cover this.

I don't know if it's possible but imho there could be 4 solutions to add a melee skill dealing poison/disease or magic single target damage:
1) create a third morph for some class skills and ultimates
2) make the class skills with stamina or magicka morphs scale not on stamina or magicka but simply on the max stat, max penetration and max damage; these morphs should then consume the related stat
3) change a morph of a weapon skill
4) add a new skill in the upcoming skill lines

Last solution is to wait the DLC with CP at least capped to 900 or 1200 but it would still be nice to diversify builds.

2) Light attacks and heavy attacks:
- bow, dual wield, two-handed, one-hand and shield do physical damage
- destruction staves do elemental damage
- restoration staff does magic damage

As you can see is missing a kind of light/heavy attacks dealing poison or disease damage.

Without adding a new weapon, we can achieve this goal through glyphs (new ones or the ones we have already).
These could alter the light/heavy attack damage of a specific weapon making them deal poison/disease/magic damage or elemental damage.
Another option is to add a buff skill that alters the kind of damage of light/heavy attacks.
This change could diversify builds both for stamina and magicka builds.

Nowadays builds are really similar and both these suggestions have the goal of an increased diversification.
Hybrid builds are a problem since 1.6, this at least can partially compensate for this loss.

Essiaga

Essiaga wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler, @ZOS_RichLambert, @wrobel

Where AOE caps added and Blinding Flashes removed for the same reason the 666 Deer were removed from Cyro?

Brian Wheeler stated (with the assistance of his white board) on ESO Live that all the additional calculations from skills being unlocked at the time of the lighting patch are the cause of lag issues in Cyro, but not the lighting patch its self. Those would be Alliance Skills, Undaunted skills, Mages Guild Skills, and Fighters Guild skills. That must be why BWL seems to performs better then Vet. That and the limited CP.

Why not just remove these skills (and reintroduce them later) rather then screwing with class skills and play the juggling act for the rest of the games existence? Those are also the skills, imo, that unbalance the classes as well. ZOS added Legerdemainan passives ... next we'll have Dark Brotherhood skills coming that are just going to add to the mix. Hence the adjustment to DOTs and AOE skills, etc.

From the 2 Guild trees only Expert Hunter, Entropy and the 2 ultimate are typically used in PVP. Of the Alliance skills only Vigor and Magica Det are typically used out side the mass groups. Why not just consolidate these trees and reduce the passives, nerfing the ball groups in the process?

Performance and balance need to be priority 1. Class skills should be sacred above and beyond all other skills as they are the IDENTITY of the character.

Champion points and non class skils and passives can and should be sacrificed to fix the lag. Dumb down the game for the sake of all of us and then reintroduce stuff as you work things out. Siege should not replace skills in PVP to buy time for more tinkering.

@Wrobel Please reply to this thread ... http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/234753/zos-is-this-the-reason-for-aoe-caps-and-the-removal-of-blinding-light-templar-nerf#latest

Cinbri

Some thoughts about Templars:
1. Jabs - before healing change Puncturing Sweep morph granted 170 degree cone attack. Small cone channeled attack is too risky to land in heavy fights, so Jabs by default should be improved with 170 degree cone. It wont make it stronger in 1v1 but will make usefull in heavy fights.
2. Solar Barrage/Backlash/Unstable Core - First of all, noone will use absolutelly useless Solar Barrage in pvp coz we have Spear Shards - range AoE with dot/disorient, strong synnergy, i doubt that any change of it will make it somehow usefull in pvp. Second - Backlash that both useless in pvp, pve. Third - Unstable Core that was an attempt to make this morph usefull(failed). Eclipse was changed to ap on 1 target with added laughable version of Inev Deto., this change however made this skill even more useless. As everyone know Templar's damage, especially AoE damage is worst, I suggest to take explosive from Eclipse and change to templar lower version of Proxi Deto(% of addition hit depends on Deto rebalance), this is not hard work as it already was implemented into Eclipse.

It could be taken from Eclipse and implemented into Solar Barrage, so people will decide either use support heal debuff Dark Flare morph or frontline AoE damage dealing morph. It also can be implemented into Backlash and has both magicka/stamina moprhs. It also could work same way for Unstable Core so it name fit. In summary when enemy zerg will see templar rushing into them with Proxi Deto and templar deto, they will stop ROFLing.
3. Honor the Dead - with current meta this morph became even more useless than before. Most of templars are not suffering with mana managment and stamplars not use it coz they have Vigor. I suggest to change this morph to restore stamina instead of magicka.
4. Healing Ritual - could be changed to HoT aura, same as Xivilai Menders at IC have.

CirithValaria

Hello @Wrobel
My wife is a huge fan! That being said, I also hugely appreciate the hard work you do.
Never give up, never surrender

There are many good suggestions in this thread and also many many very bad ones. Main issue seems to be: People want changes that would only benefit their own play style/class/skills and doesn't want anything toned down even if its called for.
While I love Bow (what this post is all about) I also try to see it in perspective of others and how it could be most "balanced" regards of PvE and PvP. I don't claim to be mastermind with these kind of things, but I try to offer some well explained "food for the thought." that would make Bow better option for all and not just Bow users.

As a long time bow user I would love to see some changes that would help balancing bow in PvP and making it little more attractive choice for PvE.

Skills that need rework:

-> Only 2 kinds of dmg = Physical dmg and Poison dmg. This means changing the "Scorched Earth" (fire dmg) morph of Volley to a new skill that does poison dmg; let's call it "Acid Rain". Skill works pretty much the way it used to: After initial "rain" the ground is "venomous" for a short period of time and it applies poison dot.

WHY: Ever since champion system introduced us Physical-/Elemental dmg/Thaumaturge - the Scorched Earth hasn't been good choice for others than maybe Dunmers that benefit from fire. IF stamina DK would have spammable fire attack (Flame Lash) it would make sense for them since they would go Elemental dmg way, but atm that is not the case. So this morph change would make this AoE dot more attractive for poison builds.


-> Poison Injection should have small "execute" on initial hit if target health is under 20%, in addition of increased dot at 50%-> . Venom Arrow would have slightly increased base dmg to make it more appealing, rest stays the same.
NOTE: Poison Arrow will still have both morphs based on poison dmg and Scatter Shot both morphs based on Physical dmg, all the others skills will have an option for poison/physical.

WHY: This would make a bow somewhat more valid choice for execute phase and not force us to pick 2H (this would still be much stronger option due to nature of being melee finisher) Sure if you have class finisher (stamina) there is no problem, but most classes don't have.


Passives that need rework:

->Long Shots: This honestly needs re-design. First of all remove the benefit from PvP - completely as it is now. Then for PvE change the damage bonus to 3% / 6% (from 6/12) and increase base bow damage and its abilities by 5% (to roughly what it was previously when shooting at mid range.) So at max range the dmg should stay almost the same and also you won't suffer that much when unable to utilize it.
In addition give this passive something that works in PvP (also in PvE): Hasty Retreat on its own is pretty underwhelming and only has situational use Bow skilltrees last passive that is mainly cosmetic so add that in here, giving 2.5 / 5 second(s) Major Expedition after roll dodge.
You can even rename it to "Hasty Long Shots" or "Hasty Dodge Shots" LOL

WHY: I understand that it fits to Bow as a weapon to be fired far and this passive also helps with the "travelling time" (mainly Snipe). It still feels to me that if you are not utilizing that max range your DPS will drop and often in PvE max range ain't a thing for various reasons (healer can't reach to buff or even heal you, boss sucks you in, small area to fight in etc.) So you will often find yourself at mid-range. In PvP it currently helps 1-shot ganking "way too much" since there "balancing Snipe travelling time" ain't really a thing and it's used in "different" ways/purpose anyway - passive should be taken away completely. Hasty Retreat is pretty underwhelming and situational passive - enough said! So let's add it in here.


-> Hawk Eye: Not bad, but it shouts for a companion! So let's give (in addition of doing extra dmg for off-balance targets) some extra dmg against immobilized, snared and knockback targets. Since it now benefits from multiple effects lets reduce passive to 6% / 12% (from 8/15).

WHY: Like I said it's not all that bad passive, but other than PvP and solo PvE you can't benefit much of it. This change would help Bow AoE a bit since it would have good synergy with Arrow Spray (+morphs) and perhaps make it little more desirable option.


-> Hasty Retreat: So this was already changed earlier to come with "Long Shots" (first - passive).
So this slot needs a new passive and its "Master Marksman" with this passive you get increased mobility when using bow abilities for 1 / 2 second(s). Could be Minor Expedition or just small added speed after doing Bow skill works little similar to 1h/Shield passive - Battlefield Mobility..I'm aiming for similar effect anyways.

WHY: In my eyes bowmen are agile and fast - have overall good mobility. Hasty Retreat tried to be this but it was mainly an "escape" if something. With this passive using bow doesn't feel as "sticky" anymore, especially when using Snipe.


I want to thank all of you who had the stamina to read it all, hopefully you liked it or atleast aren't feeling all depressed!
Hopefully Bow will get this kind or any kind of balancing updates to make it more viable in end-game, since as it is now with Bow you get lots of evil stares/laughs/kicks - and that's sad.

- Cirith -

CP5

Cirith, interesting post but I have to disagree about hasty retreat. I've use this passive all the time and have grown to love the combination of a well timed dodge roll and then the major speed buff that follows it to build distance. The speed buff last for just over the dodge roll debuff so you can string them together well enough and i've used it plenty of times to outpace enemies (its just hard to do this in pvp with gap closers that root and silence you). And trust me, the minor speed buff is almost impossible to notice.

CirithValaria

CP5 wrote: »

Cirith, interesting post but I have to disagree about hasty retreat. I've use this passive all the time and have grown to love the combination of a well timed dodge roll and then the major speed buff that follows it to build distance. The speed buff last for just over the dodge roll debuff so you can string them together well enough and i've used it plenty of times to outpace enemies (its just hard to do this in pvp with gap closers that root and silence you). And trust me, the minor speed buff is almost impossible to notice.

Yeah that's why I wouldn't get rid of it completely - I use it too so I added Hasty Retreat to go with the first passive. Also I feel that small added mobility (minor expedition) could be surprisingly big help when Sniping in dungeons/situations like Darkshade Caverns (fire phase on last boss) or Crypt Of Hearts (boss pinions) and many others...Since now it feels I'm barely moving while "casting" and often need to block-cancel Snipe and move - that's huge DPS loss.

Thanks for the reading and constructive feedback!

CP5

CirithValaria wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Cirith, interesting post but I have to disagree about hasty retreat. I've use this passive all the time and have grown to love the combination of a well timed dodge roll and then the major speed buff that follows it to build distance. The speed buff last for just over the dodge roll debuff so you can string them together well enough and i've used it plenty of times to outpace enemies (its just hard to do this in pvp with gap closers that root and silence you). And trust me, the minor speed buff is almost impossible to notice.

Yeah that's why I wouldn't get rid of it completely - I use it too so I added Hasty Retreat to go with the first passive. Also I feel that small added mobility (minor expedition) could be surprisingly big help when Sniping in dungeons/situations like Darkshade Caverns (fire phase on last boss) or Crypt Of Hearts (boss pinions) and many others...Since now it feels I'm barely moving while "casting" and often need to block-cancel Snipe and move - that's huge DPS loss.

Thanks for the reading and constructive feedback!

Its just, I chose the accelerating drain morph once on my vamp for the minor speed buff. Now that, was a cosmetic morph and nothing more (little trails coming from your legs, speed buff almost non-existent). Sadly most minor buffs/debuffs are very weak.

Ffastyl

I have noticed a lot of posts denouncing Eclipse and its morphs. Since my original post had two topics about ability changes, let's call this my third.

Eclipse has the potential to be an iconic Templar skill, however it has the same balancing issues of Blinding Light. Either overpowered or useless. Eclipse can completely shut down casters just as Blinding Light could completely shut down melee. The changes that were made to Eclipse to balance this are disliked by most, so I have noticed an increase in posts calling for it to be removed and replaced. While less used than Reflective Scale, Eclipse fills the same niche. For a class without an escape ability, designed to stand ground, Eclipse is the anti-range option for Templars.

Eclipse is a cast on target debuff that reflects all single target spells back at the target upon cast for 6 seconds. This is what makes the ability great and what makes it overpowered when it can be used. To counter this, Eclipse has been made hard CC, not requiring purge or a like ability to remove it. Thus Eclipse is a gimmick skill with this balancing. Its effectiveness depends entirely on whether or not the opponent knows what the giant black orb engulfing their body does. If they do not know, Eclipse can prevent a caster from firing a single target spell the entire fight. I have personally seen a Sorcerer kill himself with reflected spells, though this is an outlier case. Most notice the reflected damage before dying and stop. If they do know what Eclipse does, they break free immediately, gaining CC immunity for what most would not consider hard CC.

The type of balancing Eclipse received, being limited to one target and compensated with explosive damage, is not the type it needs. The inherent overpowered-or-useless nature still stands. Eclipse should be counted as soft CC to prevent it from being useless, and its effectiveness decreased to compensate for this. The treatment Reflective Scales received should do for Eclipse, reflect 1 single target spell for every second of the duration. So "Reflects 6 single target spells over 6 seconds" as opposed to "Reflects all single target spells over 6 seconds." Eclipse does not reflect all projectiles either or AoE spells, which makes its hard CC status all the more detrimental to its use (though AoE spells that hit a single target are reflected, a potential bug that should be looked into).

Limiting the number of opponents Eclipse can be cast on simultaneously is good in theory, but in practice this should not be 1. Limiting Eclipse to 3 targets, if there is a limit, allows Templars the ability to handle multiple targets without letting them handle raids. That said, the duration and time it takes to fire consecutive abilities limits Templars to maintaining at maximum 6 Eclipses, assuming their Magicka management is good enough. Also assuming they are not doing anything else. So again, a limit on the number of targets may not be necessary.

The explosive damage on Eclipse has always been weak. The version guards have of Unstable Core made the explosion damage famous but from a player it is almost negligible. Again, a gimmick to be used against the uninformed, thinking they have the significantly more powerful guard version instead of the player version. Total Dark was good enough with the heal to caster prior to the attempted rebalance, the minor explosive damage is unnecessary. The heal may be small, roughly 2k on the tooltip (mine fluctuates between 1,800 and 2,100 with weapon swaps), but it is procced frequently due to animation canceling, adding up to a significant heal. As the target cap and hard CC status are repealed, the additional explosive damage on the base ability should be repealed as well. Unstable Core should have its damage buffed and perhaps put under the conditional of requiring the afflicted to burn through the 6 reflects for it to explode, allowing the explosion to be all the more powerful. Alternatively Unstable Core could become an unpurgeable version, requiring the afflicted to burn through the 6 reflects or wait the 6 seconds.

Eclipse as it stands, with the 1 target cap, hard CC status and overpowering nature when it works, makes this a highly inconsistent skill. It should have no target cap or a cap of 3, count as a debuff and reflect 6 single target spells over 6 seconds instead of all single target spells over 6 seconds. The weak explosive damage can be removed from the base ability and Unstable Core's damage should be buffed, made conditional and buffed further or granted unpurgeable status to make it competitive with Total Dark.

Making Eclipse more consistent is better than removing Templar's anti-range option.

Cinbri

Most funny part about Eclipse is that most deathes caused by it are coz of hp desync bug.

Cinbri

Cinbri wrote: »

I think zos could improve Templar solo potential not just by increasing damage, but giving morphs either work for templar only (solo) or others (group) and give some stamina restore ability/passive(at least 1, see below). ZOS already implemented it in some skills, they just need a further improvement of this class mechanic.
Like we have :
Rushed Ceremony morphs:
1.Breath of Life - perfect for group play.
2. Honor the Dead - for solo play, despite it is useless now. As i said it should restore stamina instead of magicka.
Solar Flare morphs:
1. Dark Flare - supporting aoe healing debuff with revealing invisible targets.
2. Solar Barrage - currently useless frontline dd aoe. It should be changed to templar version of proximity detonation with smaller addition damage in radius. Templar dont need 2 aoe skills, especially when Spear Shards are much much more supreme to barrage.
Restoring Aura morphs:
1. Repentance - must have skill for group play, mostly useless for solo run.
2. Radiant Aura - absolutelly useless in any style for now skill. It must be changed for solo usability same as sorcs Dark Deal - restore hp and stamina or only stminato caster only in cost of magick/hp, so solo templars or stamplars won't be so lack of resource managment.
Rite of Passage ultimate:
1. Remembrance - keep with current aoe group healing.
2. Practiced Incantation - make it work like heavy hot only for templar but allow him to move. At least one usefull sustain ultimate for solo templar.
Rune Focus morphs:
1. Channeled Focus - restoring magicka, i.e. only passive resource managment skill we have.
2. Restoring Focus - current Minor Vitality with 8% heal buff only inside rune is absolutely weak, however Major Vitalty with 30% buff will be no brainer too OP. Change it either to portable Minor Mending or make it work same as other morph, but instead of magicka - restore stamina.
Radial Sweep ultimate still need much improvement. Increase cost, radius, duration, fix bugs:
1.Empowering Sweep - for defensive play.
2. Crescent Sweep - offensive morph, but even weaker than another morph. For offensive play it should be changed to deal additional damage to all round targets based on number of targets got hit, again some templar version of proximity detonation, i.e. some burst aoe ultimate.

---

Any of those changes will help templar's sustain and will add so much needed diversity to this class. People won't be left with no brain decisisons but will be forced to choose - group play abilities or solo working abilities that Templar is lack of. And this is easy to make - just a little changes to morphs, not to base skills. Any time templars will have option to respec morphs and try either more solo skills or more group skills or even mix of group/solo skills.

SneaK

Mist Form
Take it back to exactly how it was before the IC update.

Dragon Blood
Its just terrible. It only heals for a fraction of a fraction of health. No one outside of Blackwater uses this skill.

Wrecking Blow
Needs to seriously be looked at, perhaps take the knockdown completely out.

Notice, no one in here griping about cloak, don't touch it.

Khivas_Carrick

Just reiterating what I've said many times before here, as well as a few others, so please don't bite my head off.

1) Remove the spear theme from Aedric Spear line and make it more like an actual Battle Cleric type deal. It's annoying as hell to see a character holding a mace, ax, or sword, then suddenly see them charge into something and stab it a hundred times with a giant glowing spear.

2) Get rid of the Javelin skills as they are, both of them, they're freaking useless. Instead change them into a Melee Damage Over Time for Binding Javelin and make Aurora Javelin into something a Magicka Templar would actually use, like a casted ability that doesn't take three years to hit or increases all friendly damage, something, anything.

3) Sun Shield and it's morphs need love, as stated multiple times. Please stop nerfing it into the ground. Hell, if you don't want us having Damage Shields, then make it into a toggle that will either (A) Reduce Max Magicka to passively reduce all incoming damage by a small amount or (B) Make it a toggle that reduces Max Stamina to increase all outgoing damage by a small amount.

4) The charges should be leaps,/teleports, plain and simple, and obviously one should be stamina based, like that should be a no-brainer.

5) I would suggest making Crescent Sweep's damage slightly higher.

6) Make Power Of The Light do a DoT as it builds up, OR preferably, make it explode the moment that damage cap is reached, as to not waste time and DPS.

7) Make Purifying Light heal as an instant AoE to those nearby instead of it being a damn puddle.

8) Puncturing Sweeps and Biting Jabs: Make these both hit a little harder, like 150% as opposed to the 140% it is now. Also, because spears are lame when you're not holding an actual spear, change the animation.

9) Burning Light should proc on all attacks, all of them. If not, then I suggest a slight increase to the proc chance.

10) Spear Shards should have a DoT in it's base form, that way Magicka Templars get not one but two awesome DoTs to use and a support ability. Make it so Blazing simply increases the damage by adding an additional bit of fire damage.

11) Eclipse is friggun useless across the board, like straight up. Change it to be an honest spell reflect similar to how, you know, Spell Reflects work, or make it something else, like a weapon or spell crit buff, idk.

12) Change Restoring Spirit so it increases Regen slightly in addition to it's current action. That alone would make Templars love the class again lol

13) We need a HoT for Restoring Light imho, but that's just my thoughts. My deal is we have an entire tree devoted to healing but still need a damn Resto Staff to actually heal. Now I know this is born from other classes wanting to and needing to heal as well, but gods damn it, if we have an entire tree taken away from us just so we can heal, we better be the best god damn healers around, either through sheer healing power or immense versatility in our healing. My advice is to put in a HoT via one of the existing skills as an extra effect or to completely change one of them up, like Rune Focus or Radiant Aura.

14) Also, make the passives of Restoring Light more beneficial to Templars as a whole, especially when healing.

15) And as others have said, make Balanced Warrior Increase Spell Damage too. Not much balanced about a buff that's only good for tanks and melee dps.

16) Moving away from Templars for a moment, remake Dawnbreaker. Have it give the weapon damage as a base effect, but have it's morphs do one of two things. First, make it like how Overload works, only instead of shooting lightning everywhere like Darth Sidious, you imbue your weapon to deal an additional X amount of holy damage, with 50% more damage to undead and Daedra, with more Ultimate meaning more attacks you can unleash. That would go a long way for melee/stamina builds in general, especially bow users. The other morph of Dawnbreaker can stay the same tbh, nobody uses it much anyway. And speaking of bows btw....

17) Good god make them hit harder and faster man. Sure in PvP it's one thing, but in PvE bows are fracking GARBAGE man, like come on. Although, to be fair, I like to think that as a Templar, the lack of Bow DPS is more attributed to my class' abilities rather than the weapon itself, so I'll wait on that one.

18) Make Heavy Armor a little more DPS accessible, just a little. I don't know how you'd do it, but I believe in you.

19) Back to Templars for just a moment, Solar Flare. This old thing. Yea, know what? Ditch the AoE portion since people use Sweeps for that, and make it a faster cast with the chance to proc an instant hit and/or a much stronger blow on the next cast, or something. Actually, let's go with Solar Flare being the Templar Caster's Wrecking Blow, with a 1.1 second cast, decent flying projectile, and the next attack to the target that ISN'T a DoT getting that good ol` 20% damage boost. Sounds fair, eh?

20) Lastly, again, REMOVE THE SPEAR THEME DAMN IT! And add in actual spears to the game instead. Again, I don't know how you'd do it, but I believe you all to be a smart enough lot to figure it out.

danno8

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Just reiterating what I've said many times before here, as well as a few others, so please don't bite my head off.

1) Remove the spear theme from Aedric Spear line and make it more like an actual Battle Cleric type deal. It's annoying as hell to see a character holding a mace, ax, or sword, then suddenly see them charge into something and stab it a hundred times with a giant glowing spear.

2) Get rid of the Javelin skills as they are, both of them, they're freaking useless. Instead change them into a Melee Damage Over Time for Binding Javelin and make Aurora Javelin into something a Magicka Templar would actually use, like a casted ability that doesn't take three years to hit or increases all friendly damage, something, anything.

3) Sun Shield and it's morphs need love, as stated multiple times. Please stop nerfing it into the ground. Hell, if you don't want us having Damage Shields, then make it into a toggle that will either (A) Reduce Max Magicka to passively reduce all incoming damage by a small amount or (B) Make it a toggle that reduces Max Stamina to increase all outgoing damage by a small amount.

4) The charges should be leaps,/teleports, plain and simple, and obviously one should be stamina based, like that should be a no-brainer.

5) I would suggest making Crescent Sweep's damage slightly higher.

6) Make Power Of The Light do a DoT as it builds up, OR preferably, make it explode the moment that damage cap is reached, as to not waste time and DPS.

7) Make Purifying Light heal as an instant AoE to those nearby instead of it being a damn puddle.

8) Puncturing Sweeps and Biting Jabs: Make these both hit a little harder, like 150% as opposed to the 140% it is now. Also, because spears are lame when you're not holding an actual spear, change the animation.

9) Burning Light should proc on all attacks, all of them. If not, then I suggest a slight increase to the proc chance.

10) Spear Shards should have a DoT in it's base form, that way Magicka Templars get not one but two awesome DoTs to use and a support ability. Make it so Blazing simply increases the damage by adding an additional bit of fire damage.

11) Eclipse is friggun useless across the board, like straight up. Change it to be an honest spell reflect similar to how, you know, Spell Reflects work, or make it something else, like a weapon or spell crit buff, idk.

12) Change Restoring Spirit so it increases Regen slightly in addition to it's current action. That alone would make Templars love the class again lol

13) We need a HoT for Restoring Light imho, but that's just my thoughts. My deal is we have an entire tree devoted to healing but still need a damn Resto Staff to actually heal. Now I know this is born from other classes wanting to and needing to heal as well, but gods damn it, if we have an entire tree taken away from us just so we can heal, we better be the best god damn healers around, either through sheer healing power or immense versatility in our healing. My advice is to put in a HoT via one of the existing skills as an extra effect or to completely change one of them up, like Rune Focus or Radiant Aura.

14) Also, make the passives of Restoring Light more beneficial to Templars as a whole, especially when healing.

15) And as others have said, make Balanced Warrior Increase Spell Damage too. Not much balanced about a buff that's only good for tanks and melee dps.

16) Moving away from Templars for a moment, remake Dawnbreaker. Have it give the weapon damage as a base effect, but have it's morphs do one of two things. First, make it like how Overload works, only instead of shooting lightning everywhere like Darth Sidious, you imbue your weapon to deal an additional X amount of holy damage, with 50% more damage to undead and Daedra, with more Ultimate meaning more attacks you can unleash. That would go a long way for melee/stamina builds in general, especially bow users. The other morph of Dawnbreaker can stay the same tbh, nobody uses it much anyway. And speaking of bows btw....

17) Good god make them hit harder and faster man. Sure in PvP it's one thing, but in PvE bows are fracking GARBAGE man, like come on. Although, to be fair, I like to think that as a Templar, the lack of Bow DPS is more attributed to my class' abilities rather than the weapon itself, so I'll wait on that one.

18) Make Heavy Armor a little more DPS accessible, just a little. I don't know how you'd do it, but I believe in you.

19) Back to Templars for just a moment, Solar Flare. This old thing. Yea, know what? Ditch the AoE portion since people use Sweeps for that, and make it a faster cast with the chance to proc an instant hit and/or a much stronger blow on the next cast, or something. Actually, let's go with Solar Flare being the Templar Caster's Wrecking Blow, with a 1.1 second cast, decent flying projectile, and the next attack to the target that ISN'T a DoT getting that good ol` 20% damage boost. Sounds fair, eh?

20) Lastly, again, REMOVE THE SPEAR THEME DAMN IT! And add in actual spears to the game instead. Again, I don't know how you'd do it, but I believe you all to be a smart enough lot to figure it out.

After lists like these, and 20 other Templar threads detailing issue after issue, idea after idea, there ain't no way ZoS can possibly still be asking for more information on what Templars want.