My Take on Templars

FENGRUSH

eliisra wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Healing should be supplemental to survival, in the same way blocking, dodging, buffing and other factors should be. When someone can just lay helplessly on the ground or even someone is sitting there AFK being kept alive while a DPS rips everything he has into him - theres a problem with healing. Its primarily BoL spam and its rate of fire. When you have someone actually spec'd into healing with a good survival build, you have the result of the healing templar I play with... able to survive against 5-10 players beating on him for at least 2minutes with heal spam. Its a joke on both ends.

From the guy that seems to spend 99% of his time farming clueless PvE scrubs and other low ranks in the sewers. Maybe you call it "wiping zergs" I dunno?

You can outplay 5-10 milkdrinker(that doesn't want to fight in the first place) on any class.

Against actual PvP'ers, all you need is two average stamina builds focusing a templar healer and rip. Doesn't matter how you build your character, you cant outheal/purge Wrecking Block + Surprise Attack spam. Especially without class shield and stamina management for block.

Fotm sorc wants templar nerfed even more, because "heals". Not remotely surprised. Would be best if there weren't any healers at all in PvP right, ruining your gaming experience? Just a bunch of burst build.

Sorry for taking you and your groups tel var stones - know though that they will go to good use (eventually..).

Enjoyed 'fotm sorc' most of all though.

Minno wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Healing is a bit over the top - and certain heals more than others. None more than BoL. You dont need to spec into healing very much for BoL to be effective because of how many BoL you can throw out per second as compared to the damage of someone purely built into damage. This is the byproduct of the changes in nerfing damage and healing by 50%. Yes people dont get instantly killed, and I agree with that and appreciate it. But I dont agree with 1 templar keeping a guy alive whos laying on the ground not CC breaking because 'hes a healer'. Once you have 2-3 templars forget about it, youre simply waiting for them to slack and not heal.

Healing should be supplemental to survival, in the same way blocking, dodging, buffing and other factors should be. When someone can just lay helplessly on the ground or even someone is sitting there AFK being kept alive while a DPS rips everything he has into him - theres a problem with healing. Its primarily BoL spam and its rate of fire. When you have someone actually spec'd into healing with a good survival build, you have the result of the healing templar I play with... able to survive against 5-10 players beating on him for at least 2minutes with heal spam. Its a joke on both ends.

I'd say lets have ZOS address AOE caps first.
Then lets take a look at how healing relates to the dmg. If you can cause a dent in ball-groups with AOE cap removal, then we can see if BOL is overextending its role.

I'm just worried ZOS will over-nerf BOL to address a dmg system we want reviewed anyway. Not doing it in that order would cause a double nerf to templars and, besides DK, they don't deserve another nerf.

Also, if BOL gets a reduction, then we need a revision to how templars heal; honestly we need to protect the unique way/design intent. Currently I categorize Templar healing as "buff- debuff" healing. You pop focus+puryfing ritual then cast your heals to buff your output (BOL works wonders since it synergizes with Templar low health healing passive. Pop it at low health and it works like a healing execute.). You debuff players with dark flare, reduce Inc dmg with c-focus's armor boost, and players can purge effects away with purifying ritual. Healing ulti (despite its uselessness and bugs) can be used to reduce incoming dmg to entire party.

While I understand the hate for BOL, you'd be killing all templars with a direct nerf without looking at options to protect the way they heal against other classes/Resto staff.

Theres a lot of other issues for templars too to go in hand - but just talking about healing and how the current patch has been impacted by reducing damage. It is good to avoid the burst ganking, but the way small scale fights pan out is pretty silly. Not even talking about AOE caps/6+ people, just smaller group gameplay is pretty stupid once there are multiple templars covering each other with BoL.

Jules

FENGRUSH wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Healing should be supplemental to survival, in the same way blocking, dodging, buffing and other factors should be. When someone can just lay helplessly on the ground or even someone is sitting there AFK being kept alive while a DPS rips everything he has into him - theres a problem with healing. Its primarily BoL spam and its rate of fire. When you have someone actually spec'd into healing with a good survival build, you have the result of the healing templar I play with... able to survive against 5-10 players beating on him for at least 2minutes with heal spam. Its a joke on both ends.

From the guy that seems to spend 99% of his time farming clueless PvE scrubs and other low ranks in the sewers. Maybe you call it "wiping zergs" I dunno?

You can outplay 5-10 milkdrinker(that doesn't want to fight in the first place) on any class.

Against actual PvP'ers, all you need is two average stamina builds focusing a templar healer and rip. Doesn't matter how you build your character, you cant outheal/purge Wrecking Block + Surprise Attack spam. Especially without class shield and stamina management for block.

Fotm sorc wants templar nerfed even more, because "heals". Not remotely surprised. Would be best if there weren't any healers at all in PvP right, ruining your gaming experience? Just a bunch of burst build.

Sorry for taking you and your groups tel var stones - know though that they will go to good use (eventually..).

Enjoyed 'fotm sorc' most of all though.

Minno wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Healing is a bit over the top - and certain heals more than others. None more than BoL. You dont need to spec into healing very much for BoL to be effective because of how many BoL you can throw out per second as compared to the damage of someone purely built into damage. This is the byproduct of the changes in nerfing damage and healing by 50%. Yes people dont get instantly killed, and I agree with that and appreciate it. But I dont agree with 1 templar keeping a guy alive whos laying on the ground not CC breaking because 'hes a healer'. Once you have 2-3 templars forget about it, youre simply waiting for them to slack and not heal.

Healing should be supplemental to survival, in the same way blocking, dodging, buffing and other factors should be. When someone can just lay helplessly on the ground or even someone is sitting there AFK being kept alive while a DPS rips everything he has into him - theres a problem with healing. Its primarily BoL spam and its rate of fire. When you have someone actually spec'd into healing with a good survival build, you have the result of the healing templar I play with... able to survive against 5-10 players beating on him for at least 2minutes with heal spam. Its a joke on both ends.

I'd say lets have ZOS address AOE caps first.
Then lets take a look at how healing relates to the dmg. If you can cause a dent in ball-groups with AOE cap removal, then we can see if BOL is overextending its role.

I'm just worried ZOS will over-nerf BOL to address a dmg system we want reviewed anyway. Not doing it in that order would cause a double nerf to templars and, besides DK, they don't deserve another nerf.

Also, if BOL gets a reduction, then we need a revision to how templars heal; honestly we need to protect the unique way/design intent. Currently I categorize Templar healing as "buff- debuff" healing. You pop focus+puryfing ritual then cast your heals to buff your output (BOL works wonders since it synergizes with Templar low health healing passive. Pop it at low health and it works like a healing execute.). You debuff players with dark flare, reduce Inc dmg with c-focus's armor boost, and players can purge effects away with purifying ritual. Healing ulti (despite its uselessness and bugs) can be used to reduce incoming dmg to entire party.

While I understand the hate for BOL, you'd be killing all templars with a direct nerf without looking at options to protect the way they heal against other classes/Resto staff.

Theres a lot of other issues for templars too to go in hand - but just talking about healing and how the current patch has been impacted by reducing damage. It is good to avoid the burst ganking, but the way small scale fights pan out is pretty silly. Not even talking about AOE caps/6+ people, just smaller group gameplay is pretty stupid once there are multiple templars covering each other with BoL.

Keep in mind that some classes and specs (STAM) are built to be high damage specs and others are meant to be more sustain or tanky. If you move Templars away from high healing capability, you better be prepared to bring them on par -Magicka too- with other damage classes. If you only value damage in cyrodiil, people will gravitate toward sorc and NB even more than they already do; as DK and templar will offer very little to their gameplay and to those they choose to play with.

But I don't think all classes should be built around damage. I like that some classes are lower dmg and have other incentives instead. If you start to strip Templars of their identity, at a certain point you're just looking at homogenizing classes. Something positive about the game is the ability for all classes to have their strengths. While it does make it inconvenient for raw damage specs such as yours, devils advocate would say it makes for dynamic gameplay if you have to focus and eliminate targets in a specific order (i.e. Healers first)

Just food for thought.

Minno

FENGRUSH wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Healing should be supplemental to survival, in the same way blocking, dodging, buffing and other factors should be. When someone can just lay helplessly on the ground or even someone is sitting there AFK being kept alive while a DPS rips everything he has into him - theres a problem with healing. Its primarily BoL spam and its rate of fire. When you have someone actually spec'd into healing with a good survival build, you have the result of the healing templar I play with... able to survive against 5-10 players beating on him for at least 2minutes with heal spam. Its a joke on both ends.

From the guy that seems to spend 99% of his time farming clueless PvE scrubs and other low ranks in the sewers. Maybe you call it "wiping zergs" I dunno?

You can outplay 5-10 milkdrinker(that doesn't want to fight in the first place) on any class.

Against actual PvP'ers, all you need is two average stamina builds focusing a templar healer and rip. Doesn't matter how you build your character, you cant outheal/purge Wrecking Block + Surprise Attack spam. Especially without class shield and stamina management for block.

Fotm sorc wants templar nerfed even more, because "heals". Not remotely surprised. Would be best if there weren't any healers at all in PvP right, ruining your gaming experience? Just a bunch of burst build.

Sorry for taking you and your groups tel var stones - know though that they will go to good use (eventually..).

Enjoyed 'fotm sorc' most of all though.

Minno wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Healing is a bit over the top - and certain heals more than others. None more than BoL. You dont need to spec into healing very much for BoL to be effective because of how many BoL you can throw out per second as compared to the damage of someone purely built into damage. This is the byproduct of the changes in nerfing damage and healing by 50%. Yes people dont get instantly killed, and I agree with that and appreciate it. But I dont agree with 1 templar keeping a guy alive whos laying on the ground not CC breaking because 'hes a healer'. Once you have 2-3 templars forget about it, youre simply waiting for them to slack and not heal.

Healing should be supplemental to survival, in the same way blocking, dodging, buffing and other factors should be. When someone can just lay helplessly on the ground or even someone is sitting there AFK being kept alive while a DPS rips everything he has into him - theres a problem with healing. Its primarily BoL spam and its rate of fire. When you have someone actually spec'd into healing with a good survival build, you have the result of the healing templar I play with... able to survive against 5-10 players beating on him for at least 2minutes with heal spam. Its a joke on both ends.

I'd say lets have ZOS address AOE caps first.
Then lets take a look at how healing relates to the dmg. If you can cause a dent in ball-groups with AOE cap removal, then we can see if BOL is overextending its role.

I'm just worried ZOS will over-nerf BOL to address a dmg system we want reviewed anyway. Not doing it in that order would cause a double nerf to templars and, besides DK, they don't deserve another nerf.

Also, if BOL gets a reduction, then we need a revision to how templars heal; honestly we need to protect the unique way/design intent. Currently I categorize Templar healing as "buff- debuff" healing. You pop focus+puryfing ritual then cast your heals to buff your output (BOL works wonders since it synergizes with Templar low health healing passive. Pop it at low health and it works like a healing execute.). You debuff players with dark flare, reduce Inc dmg with c-focus's armor boost, and players can purge effects away with purifying ritual. Healing ulti (despite its uselessness and bugs) can be used to reduce incoming dmg to entire party.

While I understand the hate for BOL, you'd be killing all templars with a direct nerf without looking at options to protect the way they heal against other classes/Resto staff.

Theres a lot of other issues for templars too to go in hand - but just talking about healing and how the current patch has been impacted by reducing damage. It is good to avoid the burst ganking, but the way small scale fights pan out is pretty silly. Not even talking about AOE caps/6+ people, just smaller group gameplay is pretty stupid once there are multiple templars covering each other with BoL.

In that case, it might even be addressable with just increasing the magicka cost of BOL.

For example, one cast of bol at less health health, you can increase the heal output of that one spell. What is normally a 4k-5k per cast heal at full health become 14k-18k at less health. It's why I constantly refer to BOL heals as executes; makes you appreciate that skill more.

With that said, if players are constantly casting BOL without a viable counter, then ZOS needs to look at how its cost effects the spamable nature of BOL. If it is always referred to as "the oh s**t spell", then spamming it reduces that intent. I'd consider that broken/cheap playing at that point.

My previous comment just didn't want ZOS to implement changes without full picture of how dmg is dealt. Hence why I said wait for AOE cap removal.

zyk

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Theres a lot of other issues for templars too to go in hand - but just talking about healing and how the current patch has been impacted by reducing damage. It is good to avoid the burst ganking, but the way small scale fights pan out is pretty silly. Not even talking about AOE caps/6+ people, just smaller group gameplay is pretty stupid once there are multiple templars covering each other with BoL.

Aren't you finding that 2.2 TTK is approaching that of 2.0 as more players get fully geared? There is a lot of 2-shotting going on again. IMO, BoL seemed just as potent in 2.0 in small group/1v1 gameplay.

As a Magicka NB, my PVP damage output is roughly the same as 2.0 now. Some of that has to do with the nerf to nirnhoned armor; and from a Stamina build POV, some damage reduction is the result of fixed sharpened maces.

The big difference I see fighting magicka templars in 2.1/2.2 vs 2.0 is against battle-leveled opponents.

[edit: I should say against decently equipped (nirnhoned armor) opponents in 2.0; additionally, my CP total has roughly doubled from 2.0 to 2.2.]

tinythinker

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Nice write-up and follow-up. I keep tinkering with my own suggestions for tweaks and little fixes for Templar as well, a list which grows slowly over time. I, too, would love to have Blinding Flashes back, but the odds of that seem astronomically low.

On the off chance Wrobel or someone from his team reads this thread, or, at the very least, as something for other players who run Templars to look at...

AEDRIC SPEAR

Replace the Knockback on Puncturing Strikes and its morphs with a Stun (target can't move or use abilities until effect ends or they Break Free) or pair the Knockback with Concussion (target deals 10% less damage for the duration of the effect or until they Break Free). This gives an opening for another ability or weapon attack rather than just spam, spam, spam, spam...

Give a 15% base damage increase to Piercing Javelin and its morphs rather than 10% only to the Aurora Javelin morph; increase the range of the Aurora Javelin morph from 20 to 25 meters, increase the travel speed of the projectile to compensate for the longer distance, and boost the extra damage based on distance to a max of 60%.

Increase shield strength to 40% of caster's health for Sun Shield and its morphs. Double the damage on activation for Radiant Aura while either Stunning or Knocking Back those caught in the blast of the activation. Add Disorient (same as Stun but also ends if target takes damage) or Knock Back to enemies in range of the AoE damage effect when Blazing Shield explodes.

Change the Spear Wall passive to add a 10% chance to inflict Minor Maim (15% reduction in target's outgoing damage) for 8 seconds on an enemy whose melee attack has been blocked. [Helps make more of Blocking with the increased cost in 1.6 and the removal of Stamina Regeneration while Blocking in 2.1.]

For the Balanced Warrior passive, as others have mentioned, staffs haven't used Weapon Damage in a looong time. Drop the extra damage from 3%/6% to 2%/4% and have it include Spell Damage as well while including Physical Damage in the 1000/2000 resist bonus.

Radial Sweep (Ultimate):

The Empowering Sweep morph works for being tanky in PvE on large pulls because of the damage reduction, so I use it when fighting large groups of mobs while solo adventuring. I just collect them and use Empowering Sweep, Blazing Shield, Puncturing Sweep. You can go all day like that because of the low ult cost with as many trash mobs as you want, the more enemies the better. I wouldn't use it in PvP. It also works if you're an actual tank in group play.

Crescent Sweep is meant to be a small burst+dot focusing on enemies in front of the player (33% more damage to enemies in front of the caster on the initial hit). It's more like a really strong AoE regular skill than an ultimate but that is probably tied to it being relatively cheap. Adding in something like a debuff to those caught in the +33% strike would be nice though and might make it better for PvP as an opening hit. Either major breach (significantly reduced spell resistance) since it does magicka damage or both minor breach+minor fracture (moderately reduced spell + physical resistance) would be nice. Just pop Cresent, hit your morph of Puncturing Strikes, and enjoy. Either that or up the damage on the initial hit to those standing in the frontal cone area of effect to 50%.

DAWN'S WRATH

Make all spell projectiles in the Dawn's Wrath skill line -- Sun Fire and its morphs along with Solar Flare and its morph Dark Flare -- unable to be Dodged. Target(s) can still Block the projectiles to reduce damage taken, Reflect the projectiles, or Absorb the projectiles. [Dark Flare's cast time and slow travel speed would be balanced by the "no Dodge" effect. This would not effect PvE at all as most mobs don't dodge, but it would make the skill more useful in PvP. The target and nearby enemies would still receive Major Defile if it is Reflected.]

Replace Major Prophecy for Vampire's Bane (increase caster's Spell Critical chance by 10%) with Major Breach (lower target's Spell Resistance by 5120) to make the DoT more effective. [Many players already slot Mage Light or get Major Prophecy from a potion.]

Reclassify Eclipse and its morphs as non-CC abilities that cannot be removed by Break Free. They could still be cleansed/purged. Increase the bonus damage for Unstable Core to 50% or 60% (at least). Failing that, double or triple the damage done by the base ability and morphs when someone breaks out of the bubble in order to make up for wasting magicka in order to give them instant CC immunity. Make them choose between taking real damage or waiting it out (and taking normal "end of ability" damage). If it's going to be a "one target at a time" skill make it worth it.

Add "healing effect increased up to 20% based on your current magicka" to Radiant Glory.

Change the Enduring Rays passive to only increase the length of Nova, Sun Fire, and Eclipse. The Focused Healing and Light Weaver passives from the Restoring Light skill line only affect the ultimate and two active skills, so why not keep the boost to the skills that benefit from lasting longer and un-nerf those that do not?

Nova (Ultimate): Drop the cost to the 200-220 range.

RESTORING LIGHT

The Healing Ritual ability has always been in need of something, but the changes to it haven't really made it much better or worse. It does great healing, but the immobility, two second cast time, and ten meter radius in exchange for that healing is a bit much on the offset side of the scales. Increase the interval before the delayed heal of Lingering Ritual to 10 or 12 seconds and give those in the 10 meter radius who receive the initial cast Minor Vitality (+8% healing received) until that extra heal ticks. Add Major Mending (30% health recovery), for the caster only, to Ritual of Rebirth.

Have the Light Weaver passive grant 8 ultimate, not 2, when allies under 60% health are affected by Healing Ritual. Even if players spam it, there is little chance of exploiting given the limited range and immobility while casting. Besides, cheap ultimates are cheap, so it doesn't matter if you charge them a bit faster. And getting to the costlier ultimates faster makes Healing Ritual more appealing, which is a good thing.

Rite of Passage (Ultimate): I rarely see either morph of this ability used outside of PvE. Sometimes I and some healer Templars will use Remembrance in group PvE play for bosses that have high damage phases, while others use Practiced Incantation and its slightly longer channel time (an extra two seconds). I personally don't find the extra two seconds for Incantation a good trade for the damage reduction, but that's a matter of preference and some favor it. Perhaps that morph could be altered to be the PvP-preferred version. For example, by extending the caster's immunity to crowd control effect to the allies being healed for the duration of the ability.

I personally think we should get blinding flashes back and I'm fine with balanced warrior giving an equal spell bonus as it grants weapon bonus - I do not think it should be reduced though. Disintegrate is also better than Burning Light because it is A) Universal to all lightning effects and Actually functions like the tooltip says. Frankly I'd like to see Burning Light to become less crappy.

I only lowered the values for that passive because I doubted ZOS would just *give* us a buff like adding in an equal amount of spell damage. Then again, these are just ideas being shared among players, and getting no dev attention, so what the heck Changed it back to just adding with no subtracting.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Please bear in mind that for stamina builds the choices are a lot more limited than it seems. Binding Javelin & Biting Jabs are good but they can also be replaced with weapon skills. Backlash could also seriously use some love. Its the only Dawn Wrath ability worth slotting as a Stamina Temp, and even then it is debatable (I realize Eclipse has some niche uses). Binding javelin is Templar's best single target cc, and it is not as good as many out of class options, and not significantly better than wrecking blow apart from range.

Yeah, I have an Argonian magicka Templar and a Redguard stamina Templar. Like most stam builds the latter mostly uses weapon and Fighter's Guild skills.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

One could argue that Blazing Spear is a single target cc but in its current state is a weak aoe dot and a highly telegraphed single target cc that shares cd with Javelin. Biting Jabs is better than flurry, but not greatly so and both skills fall prey to being an easily avoidable channel for much of the dps of the skill. Biting Jabs is also treated as a hard cc despite a nonexistent cc built in at the end (which means you have to use a real cc first to make use of the skill properly). Next we have Repentance (to get our passive regen, and corpse regen), Rune Focus (armor bonus), Cleansing Ritual (to purge), Backlash (to use dawn's wrath passives if you care to), and Eclipse (which puts everything on cc, and is very specific to duelling). These are the only useful skills in a Stamina Templar's repertoire, and much of these are very much 'take it or leave it'. If they buffed Sun Shield it might be useful for a Stamplar. The ultimates can be used to soak up some passive shortcomings (like empowering sweep if you want your aedric spear passives on a bar that doesn't use spear).

And I think my proposed changes to Eclipse+morphs and Puncturing Strikes+morphs and Sun Shield+morphs would make them even more useful to any Templar build.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

To Sum up this is the Stamplar Class Skill Toolkit: Binding Javelin, Biting Jabs (both of which are weapon skill opportunity cost, eg: steel tornado, wrecking blow, executioner), Repentance, Rune Focus, Cleansing Ritual, Backlash. Cramming all of that in leaves little room for things like Vigor/Rally, and Templars get the least mileage out of these two skills. In short: If you're getting beat by a Stamplar, you'd get beat even faster by another Stamina build.

Yeah, but the current logic is that stam users get four weapon skill lines to choose from that use stam as opposed to two magicka-based weapon skill lines, so there are fewer stam morphs in class skill lines. I don't mind if ZOS adds a a couple more stam options, my list of suggestions is simply to fix the current situation in terms of broken, under-performing, or outdated abilities. That itself might make for more appealing options for different builds (as mentioned just above)

I think what you had to say was great, don't get me wrong, I just wanted to point out the stamina-side issues. My point was simply that the Templar is very reliant on its passives, and the passives that link off of the actives I pointed out. If you gut balanced warrior, you really hurt the Stamina Templar badly. In fact gutting any of the aforementioned skills adversely effects the Stamina Templar. For whatever reason I find it a lot easier to make use of my class passives on a Sorc, Nb or DK for instance. I think you definitely have good ideas though, I was just focusing on my concerns about Balanced Warrior - its the most important passive a Stamplar has, along with the block one (which was heavily nerfed thanks to block changes), and really all the aedric ones (which require use of one aedric skill).

I hear you. Along those I lined I thought the proposed change to the Spear Wall passive would be nice given the changed to block (inflicting Minor Main on targets who have their melee attack blocked). Would help with Steel Tornado and Wrecking Blow spam.

Bazeric

Jules wrote: »

Just food for thought.

Basically points I brought up earlier and he has already responded to, so don't be surprised if he reiterates his points. But who am I? #onestarnobody #walloftextwhocares

Dare I say this has slightly derailed? o_O

Minno

Jules wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Healing should be supplemental to survival, in the same way blocking, dodging, buffing and other factors should be. When someone can just lay helplessly on the ground or even someone is sitting there AFK being kept alive while a DPS rips everything he has into him - theres a problem with healing. Its primarily BoL spam and its rate of fire. When you have someone actually spec'd into healing with a good survival build, you have the result of the healing templar I play with... able to survive against 5-10 players beating on him for at least 2minutes with heal spam. Its a joke on both ends.

From the guy that seems to spend 99% of his time farming clueless PvE scrubs and other low ranks in the sewers. Maybe you call it "wiping zergs" I dunno?

You can outplay 5-10 milkdrinker(that doesn't want to fight in the first place) on any class.

Against actual PvP'ers, all you need is two average stamina builds focusing a templar healer and rip. Doesn't matter how you build your character, you cant outheal/purge Wrecking Block + Surprise Attack spam. Especially without class shield and stamina management for block.

Fotm sorc wants templar nerfed even more, because "heals". Not remotely surprised. Would be best if there weren't any healers at all in PvP right, ruining your gaming experience? Just a bunch of burst build.

Sorry for taking you and your groups tel var stones - know though that they will go to good use (eventually..).

Enjoyed 'fotm sorc' most of all though.

Minno wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Healing is a bit over the top - and certain heals more than others. None more than BoL. You dont need to spec into healing very much for BoL to be effective because of how many BoL you can throw out per second as compared to the damage of someone purely built into damage. This is the byproduct of the changes in nerfing damage and healing by 50%. Yes people dont get instantly killed, and I agree with that and appreciate it. But I dont agree with 1 templar keeping a guy alive whos laying on the ground not CC breaking because 'hes a healer'. Once you have 2-3 templars forget about it, youre simply waiting for them to slack and not heal.

Healing should be supplemental to survival, in the same way blocking, dodging, buffing and other factors should be. When someone can just lay helplessly on the ground or even someone is sitting there AFK being kept alive while a DPS rips everything he has into him - theres a problem with healing. Its primarily BoL spam and its rate of fire. When you have someone actually spec'd into healing with a good survival build, you have the result of the healing templar I play with... able to survive against 5-10 players beating on him for at least 2minutes with heal spam. Its a joke on both ends.

I'd say lets have ZOS address AOE caps first.
Then lets take a look at how healing relates to the dmg. If you can cause a dent in ball-groups with AOE cap removal, then we can see if BOL is overextending its role.

I'm just worried ZOS will over-nerf BOL to address a dmg system we want reviewed anyway. Not doing it in that order would cause a double nerf to templars and, besides DK, they don't deserve another nerf.

Also, if BOL gets a reduction, then we need a revision to how templars heal; honestly we need to protect the unique way/design intent. Currently I categorize Templar healing as "buff- debuff" healing. You pop focus+puryfing ritual then cast your heals to buff your output (BOL works wonders since it synergizes with Templar low health healing passive. Pop it at low health and it works like a healing execute.). You debuff players with dark flare, reduce Inc dmg with c-focus's armor boost, and players can purge effects away with purifying ritual. Healing ulti (despite its uselessness and bugs) can be used to reduce incoming dmg to entire party.

While I understand the hate for BOL, you'd be killing all templars with a direct nerf without looking at options to protect the way they heal against other classes/Resto staff.

Theres a lot of other issues for templars too to go in hand - but just talking about healing and how the current patch has been impacted by reducing damage. It is good to avoid the burst ganking, but the way small scale fights pan out is pretty silly. Not even talking about AOE caps/6+ people, just smaller group gameplay is pretty stupid once there are multiple templars covering each other with BoL.

Keep in mind that some classes and specs (STAM) are built to be high damage specs and others are meant to be more sustain or tanky. If you move Templars away from high healing capability, you better be prepared to bring them on par -Magicka too- with other damage classes. If you only value damage in cyrodiil, people will gravitate toward sorc and NB even more than they already do; as DK and templar will offer very little to their gameplay and to those they choose to play with.

But I don't think all classes should be built around damage. I like that some classes are lower dmg and have other incentives instead. If you start to strip Templars of their identity, at a certain point you're just looking at homogenizing classes. Something positive about the game is the ability for all classes to have their strengths. While it does make it inconvenient for raw damage specs such as yours, devils advocate would say it makes for dynamic gameplay if you have to focus and eliminate targets in a specific order (i.e. Healers first)

Just food for thought.

Very good point. But I also think we are all wanting the same thing, ability for ZOS to balance so that combat between classes flows.

Joy_Division

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Healing is a bit over the top - and certain heals more than others. None more than BoL. You dont need to spec into healing very much for BoL to be effective because of how many BoL you can throw out per second as compared to the damage of someone purely built into damage. This is the byproduct of the changes in nerfing damage and healing by 50%. Yes people dont get instantly killed, and I agree with that and appreciate it. But I dont agree with 1 templar keeping a guy alive whos laying on the ground not CC breaking because 'hes a healer'. Once you have 2-3 templars forget about it, youre simply waiting for them to slack and not heal.

Healing should be supplemental to survival, in the same way blocking, dodging, buffing and other factors should be. When someone can just lay helplessly on the ground or even someone is sitting there AFK being kept alive while a DPS rips everything he has into him - theres a problem with healing. Its primarily BoL spam and its rate of fire. When you have someone actually spec'd into healing with a good survival build, you have the result of the healing templar I play with... able to survive against 5-10 players beating on him for at least 2minutes with heal spam. Its a joke on both ends.

Hi FENGRUSH:

You think healing is "over the top" from your perspective because you are a stamina sorc who specializes in damage. You think I heal too much with BoL? Too bad. L2P. Every decent stamina build in the game - and I'm assuming yours since you are a decent player can out DPS the big Breath of Life heal globly cooldown per global cooldown if you animation cancel. You only play a sorcerer who gets frustrated because you cant kill a healer fast enough (Gee, sorry for using my only survival tool...maybe you should stop using your survival tool like dodging and streaking if it bothers you so much). You have no idea what's it's like to play a healer or a templar otherwise you wouldn't be asking ZoS to nerf you competitors survival tools.

If you don't like healers so much, why don;t you try not maximizing your weapon damage and actually use the tools in the game to prevent it: you are a staimna build with easy access to reverberating bash and major defile and you choose not to use it. That's on you...not because heals are "out of control." If you reverberating bash a tempalr healer, they have to spend 2 global cooldowns just to get that debuff off (a CC break and a cleanse), in the meantime you could lay in 2 animation canceled heavy attacks, and two DPS skills of your choice which should be be enough to finish off the pesky templar.

If you trying to kill some guy who has 2-3 templars as in the scenario you described above, sorry that's a L2P issue on your part. Mot DPS just want to stack weapon damage and spam the highest damage skills and expect that to overcome any tanking or healing that other players do and when it doesn't work come to the forums and say that tanking and healing are over the top (and usually think dodge roll, on the other hand, was over-nerfed).

I die every night in Cyrodiil as do the players I heal. Quite frankly, it isn't that difficult.

BossTuggles

As a templar healer i gotta say BoL is stupidly strong its cheap and there is no targetting needed to use it just spam the hell outta it. I honestly feel if you had 3 good templars in any group no one would die ever. With *** spell damage i heal roughly 7 k per BoL and i can even animation cancel the cast

Zheg

Joy_Division wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Healing is a bit over the top - and certain heals more than others. None more than BoL. You dont need to spec into healing very much for BoL to be effective because of how many BoL you can throw out per second as compared to the damage of someone purely built into damage. This is the byproduct of the changes in nerfing damage and healing by 50%. Yes people dont get instantly killed, and I agree with that and appreciate it. But I dont agree with 1 templar keeping a guy alive whos laying on the ground not CC breaking because 'hes a healer'. Once you have 2-3 templars forget about it, youre simply waiting for them to slack and not heal.

Healing should be supplemental to survival, in the same way blocking, dodging, buffing and other factors should be. When someone can just lay helplessly on the ground or even someone is sitting there AFK being kept alive while a DPS rips everything he has into him - theres a problem with healing. Its primarily BoL spam and its rate of fire. When you have someone actually spec'd into healing with a good survival build, you have the result of the healing templar I play with... able to survive against 5-10 players beating on him for at least 2minutes with heal spam. Its a joke on both ends.

Hi FENGRUSH:

You think healing is "over the top" from your perspective because you are a stamina sorc who specializes in damage. You think I heal too much with BoL? Too bad. L2P. Every decent stamina build in the game - and I'm assuming yours since you are a decent player can out DPS the big Breath of Life heal globly cooldown per global cooldown if you animation cancel. You only play a sorcerer who gets frustrated because you can kill a healer fast enough (Gee, sorry for using my only survival tool...maybe you should stop using your survival tool like dodging and streaking if it bothers you so much). You have no idea what's it's like to play a healer or a templar otherwise you wouldn't be asking ZoS to nerf you competitors survival tools.

If you don't like healers so much, why don;t you try not maximizing your weapon damage and actually use the tools in the game to prevent it: you are a staimna build with easy access to reverberating bash and major defile and you choose not to use it. That's on you...not because heals are "out of control." If you reverberating bash a tempalr healer, they have to spend 2 global cooldowns just to get that debuff off (a CC break and a cleanse), in the meantime you could lay in 2 animation canceled heavy attacks, and two DPS skills of your choice which should be be enough to finish off the pesky templar.

If you trying to kill some guy who ha 2-3 templars as in the scenario you described above, sorry that's a L2P issue on your part. Mot DPS just want to stack weapon damage and spam the highest damage skills and exepct that to overcome any tanking or healing that other players do and when it doesn;t work come to the forums and say that tanking and healing are over the top (and usually think dodge roll, on the other hand, was over-nerfed).

I die every night in Cyrodiil as do the players I heal. Quite frankly, it isn't that difficult.

Reverb bash is indeed an underrated, excellent tool for stamina builds that often gets neglected because of the tradeoff in dps for survivability and utility. If the only build fengrush has trouble with are healing Templars, that seems balanced to me. No one build should be highly successful against all others. If you keep up cc on the Templar, you'll be able to kill them by depleting stam and won't even need the utility of major defile. From the example provided, sounded like he was trying to burst down easy prey but ignoring the healer? Will side with joys 'tough noogies' vibe on this one.

Joy, excellent OP. Don't agree 100% with everything, but I'd love to see you sit in wroebels chair for a few days and have the reins on Templar tweaks.

Minno

Zheg wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Healing is a bit over the top - and certain heals more than others. None more than BoL. You dont need to spec into healing very much for BoL to be effective because of how many BoL you can throw out per second as compared to the damage of someone purely built into damage. This is the byproduct of the changes in nerfing damage and healing by 50%. Yes people dont get instantly killed, and I agree with that and appreciate it. But I dont agree with 1 templar keeping a guy alive whos laying on the ground not CC breaking because 'hes a healer'. Once you have 2-3 templars forget about it, youre simply waiting for them to slack and not heal.

Healing should be supplemental to survival, in the same way blocking, dodging, buffing and other factors should be. When someone can just lay helplessly on the ground or even someone is sitting there AFK being kept alive while a DPS rips everything he has into him - theres a problem with healing. Its primarily BoL spam and its rate of fire. When you have someone actually spec'd into healing with a good survival build, you have the result of the healing templar I play with... able to survive against 5-10 players beating on him for at least 2minutes with heal spam. Its a joke on both ends.

Hi FENGRUSH:

You think healing is "over the top" from your perspective because you are a stamina sorc who specializes in damage. You think I heal too much with BoL? Too bad. L2P. Every decent stamina build in the game - and I'm assuming yours since you are a decent player can out DPS the big Breath of Life heal globly cooldown per global cooldown if you animation cancel. You only play a sorcerer who gets frustrated because you can kill a healer fast enough (Gee, sorry for using my only survival tool...maybe you should stop using your survival tool like dodging and streaking if it bothers you so much). You have no idea what's it's like to play a healer or a templar otherwise you wouldn't be asking ZoS to nerf you competitors survival tools.

If you don't like healers so much, why don;t you try not maximizing your weapon damage and actually use the tools in the game to prevent it: you are a staimna build with easy access to reverberating bash and major defile and you choose not to use it. That's on you...not because heals are "out of control." If you reverberating bash a tempalr healer, they have to spend 2 global cooldowns just to get that debuff off (a CC break and a cleanse), in the meantime you could lay in 2 animation canceled heavy attacks, and two DPS skills of your choice which should be be enough to finish off the pesky templar.

If you trying to kill some guy who ha 2-3 templars as in the scenario you described above, sorry that's a L2P issue on your part. Mot DPS just want to stack weapon damage and spam the highest damage skills and exepct that to overcome any tanking or healing that other players do and when it doesn;t work come to the forums and say that tanking and healing are over the top (and usually think dodge roll, on the other hand, was over-nerfed).

I die every night in Cyrodiil as do the players I heal. Quite frankly, it isn't that difficult.

Reverb bash is indeed an underrated, excellent tool for stamina builds that often gets neglected because of the tradeoff in dps for survivability and utility. If the only build fengrush has trouble with are healing Templars, that seems balanced to me. No one build should be highly successful against all others. If you keep up cc on the Templar, you'll be able to kill them by depleting stam and won't even need the utility of major defile. From the example provided, sounded like he was trying to burst down easy prey but ignoring the healer? Will side with joys 'tough noogies' vibe on this one.

Joy, excellent OP. Don't agree 100% with everything, but I'd love to see you sit in wroebels chair for a few days and have the reins on Templar tweaks.

Crushing shock too; interrupts are a bane for us templars.

Fengrush knows the counters to templars.
I'd say it's a weakness in his build (not to discredit it, its a very popular and successful build.)

I can see the BOL spam being equally annoying as ambush spam, but it comes down to either increasing or decreasing its cost.

@Joy_Division for #templarpvpcoordinator2016

BRogueNZ

BossTuggles wrote: »

As a templar healer i gotta say BoL is stupidly strong its cheap and there is no targetting needed to use it just spam the hell outta it. I honestly feel if you had 3 good templars in any group no one would die ever. With *** spell damage i heal roughly 7 k per BoL and i can even animation cancel the cast

But they do, despite how you honestly feel.

and any skill is cheap if you spec into cost reduction, any skill is powerful if you spec into what fits your build

as for spamming, I don't think there's a single FOTM skill in the whole game that doesn't get chained so if you're trying to suggest that healers are worse at it than anyone else you're probably just in the fan of Fens club.

And I really don't feel bad at all 'spamming' heals, sometimes out healing someone's damage when 99% of the time its the exact opposite with people getting roflstomped by stamina builds.

Nifty2g

this should not be in the pvp section OP, i'd suggest moving this to general discussion to grab developer attention

Takllin

Minno wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Healing is a bit over the top - and certain heals more than others. None more than BoL. You dont need to spec into healing very much for BoL to be effective because of how many BoL you can throw out per second as compared to the damage of someone purely built into damage. This is the byproduct of the changes in nerfing damage and healing by 50%. Yes people dont get instantly killed, and I agree with that and appreciate it. But I dont agree with 1 templar keeping a guy alive whos laying on the ground not CC breaking because 'hes a healer'. Once you have 2-3 templars forget about it, youre simply waiting for them to slack and not heal.

Healing should be supplemental to survival, in the same way blocking, dodging, buffing and other factors should be. When someone can just lay helplessly on the ground or even someone is sitting there AFK being kept alive while a DPS rips everything he has into him - theres a problem with healing. Its primarily BoL spam and its rate of fire. When you have someone actually spec'd into healing with a good survival build, you have the result of the healing templar I play with... able to survive against 5-10 players beating on him for at least 2minutes with heal spam. Its a joke on both ends.

Hi FENGRUSH:

You think healing is "over the top" from your perspective because you are a stamina sorc who specializes in damage. You think I heal too much with BoL? Too bad. L2P. Every decent stamina build in the game - and I'm assuming yours since you are a decent player can out DPS the big Breath of Life heal globly cooldown per global cooldown if you animation cancel. You only play a sorcerer who gets frustrated because you can kill a healer fast enough (Gee, sorry for using my only survival tool...maybe you should stop using your survival tool like dodging and streaking if it bothers you so much). You have no idea what's it's like to play a healer or a templar otherwise you wouldn't be asking ZoS to nerf you competitors survival tools.

If you don't like healers so much, why don;t you try not maximizing your weapon damage and actually use the tools in the game to prevent it: you are a staimna build with easy access to reverberating bash and major defile and you choose not to use it. That's on you...not because heals are "out of control." If you reverberating bash a tempalr healer, they have to spend 2 global cooldowns just to get that debuff off (a CC break and a cleanse), in the meantime you could lay in 2 animation canceled heavy attacks, and two DPS skills of your choice which should be be enough to finish off the pesky templar.

If you trying to kill some guy who ha 2-3 templars as in the scenario you described above, sorry that's a L2P issue on your part. Mot DPS just want to stack weapon damage and spam the highest damage skills and exepct that to overcome any tanking or healing that other players do and when it doesn;t work come to the forums and say that tanking and healing are over the top (and usually think dodge roll, on the other hand, was over-nerfed).

I die every night in Cyrodiil as do the players I heal. Quite frankly, it isn't that difficult.

Reverb bash is indeed an underrated, excellent tool for stamina builds that often gets neglected because of the tradeoff in dps for survivability and utility. If the only build fengrush has trouble with are healing Templars, that seems balanced to me. No one build should be highly successful against all others. If you keep up cc on the Templar, you'll be able to kill them by depleting stam and won't even need the utility of major defile. From the example provided, sounded like he was trying to burst down easy prey but ignoring the healer? Will side with joys 'tough noogies' vibe on this one.

Joy, excellent OP. Don't agree 100% with everything, but I'd love to see you sit in wroebels chair for a few days and have the reins on Templar tweaks.

Crushing shock too; interrupts are a bane for us templars.

Fengrush knows the counters to templars.
I'd say it's a weakness in his build (not to discredit it, its a very popular and successful build.)

I can see the BOL spam being equally annoying as ambush spam, but it comes down to either increasing or decreasing its cost.

@Joy_Division for #templarpvpcoordinator2016

They changed BoL to be an instant cast now, instead of waiting until the end of the animation for the heal to go off, so Crushin Shock doesn't work again BoL anymore.

Which is also part of the problem now, before there was a bit of a time gap, now you can just rip off BoL constantly. They need to look at how much it's doing.

Another issue is the healing through walls and such. It's ***. I was fighting on the Alessia-Sej bridge the other day, and there was an EP Templar hiding underneath the bridge spamming BoL to heal his buddies on the top...That's a stupid mechanic and needs to be changed.

Takllin

Nifty2g wrote: »

this should not be in the pvp section OP, i'd suggest moving this to general discussion to grab developer attention

You also have to make an individual thread of each change you want.....

BossTuggles

I can hide a room away or sit inside a tower with no vision of what my group is fighting or getting jumped by and I can keep them topped off easy. I dont even think I am good at this game. But I am an above average healer. What does that say about the state of healing in this game. I have played support characters in all mmos I have ever played and in this one I can tell you it is by far the easiest.

BrogueZ thats the thing I am not specced into cost reduction or healing (spell power). I am specced defensive entirely with CPs and everything. Hell i can spec to be able to heal for longer and for more which still goes to show how stupidly broken it is. My heals suck 7k per i know i can get that number easily above 12 k per but thats a luxury I cant have with my play style.

caeliusstarbreaker

They very fabric of this game... Especially if you removed animation canceling as some people go on about... Is a 1-2 max dmg spamming game. Removing utility skills, that's it at bare bones. DPS gonna spam 1-2 attacks, healers gonna spam 1-2 heals. To call for a nerf for heals because dps doesn't want to use a debuff or run the healer out of stam, and just wants his dps to out perform the heal is absurd.

Minno

Takllin wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Healing is a bit over the top - and certain heals more than others. None more than BoL. You dont need to spec into healing very much for BoL to be effective because of how many BoL you can throw out per second as compared to the damage of someone purely built into damage. This is the byproduct of the changes in nerfing damage and healing by 50%. Yes people dont get instantly killed, and I agree with that and appreciate it. But I dont agree with 1 templar keeping a guy alive whos laying on the ground not CC breaking because 'hes a healer'. Once you have 2-3 templars forget about it, youre simply waiting for them to slack and not heal.

Healing should be supplemental to survival, in the same way blocking, dodging, buffing and other factors should be. When someone can just lay helplessly on the ground or even someone is sitting there AFK being kept alive while a DPS rips everything he has into him - theres a problem with healing. Its primarily BoL spam and its rate of fire. When you have someone actually spec'd into healing with a good survival build, you have the result of the healing templar I play with... able to survive against 5-10 players beating on him for at least 2minutes with heal spam. Its a joke on both ends.

Hi FENGRUSH:

You think healing is "over the top" from your perspective because you are a stamina sorc who specializes in damage. You think I heal too much with BoL? Too bad. L2P. Every decent stamina build in the game - and I'm assuming yours since you are a decent player can out DPS the big Breath of Life heal globly cooldown per global cooldown if you animation cancel. You only play a sorcerer who gets frustrated because you can kill a healer fast enough (Gee, sorry for using my only survival tool...maybe you should stop using your survival tool like dodging and streaking if it bothers you so much). You have no idea what's it's like to play a healer or a templar otherwise you wouldn't be asking ZoS to nerf you competitors survival tools.

If you don't like healers so much, why don;t you try not maximizing your weapon damage and actually use the tools in the game to prevent it: you are a staimna build with easy access to reverberating bash and major defile and you choose not to use it. That's on you...not because heals are "out of control." If you reverberating bash a tempalr healer, they have to spend 2 global cooldowns just to get that debuff off (a CC break and a cleanse), in the meantime you could lay in 2 animation canceled heavy attacks, and two DPS skills of your choice which should be be enough to finish off the pesky templar.

If you trying to kill some guy who ha 2-3 templars as in the scenario you described above, sorry that's a L2P issue on your part. Mot DPS just want to stack weapon damage and spam the highest damage skills and exepct that to overcome any tanking or healing that other players do and when it doesn;t work come to the forums and say that tanking and healing are over the top (and usually think dodge roll, on the other hand, was over-nerfed).

I die every night in Cyrodiil as do the players I heal. Quite frankly, it isn't that difficult.

Reverb bash is indeed an underrated, excellent tool for stamina builds that often gets neglected because of the tradeoff in dps for survivability and utility. If the only build fengrush has trouble with are healing Templars, that seems balanced to me. No one build should be highly successful against all others. If you keep up cc on the Templar, you'll be able to kill them by depleting stam and won't even need the utility of major defile. From the example provided, sounded like he was trying to burst down easy prey but ignoring the healer? Will side with joys 'tough noogies' vibe on this one.

Joy, excellent OP. Don't agree 100% with everything, but I'd love to see you sit in wroebels chair for a few days and have the reins on Templar tweaks.

Crushing shock too; interrupts are a bane for us templars.

Fengrush knows the counters to templars.
I'd say it's a weakness in his build (not to discredit it, its a very popular and successful build.)

I can see the BOL spam being equally annoying as ambush spam, but it comes down to either increasing or decreasing its cost.

@Joy_Division for #templarpvpcoordinator2016

They changed BoL to be an instant cast now, instead of waiting until the end of the animation for the heal to go off, so Crushin Shock doesn't work again BoL anymore.

Which is also part of the problem now, before there was a bit of a time gap, now you can just rip off BoL constantly. They need to look at how much it's doing.

Another issue is the healing through walls and such. It's ***. I was fighting on the Alessia-Sej bridge the other day, and there was an EP Templar hiding underneath the bridge spamming BoL to heal his buddies on the top...That's a stupid mechanic and needs to be changed.

The heal through walld/below bridges is a nasty tactic one that shouldn't define a good healer. Agreed it should be addressed.

Spamming of BOL, while effective now, still shouldn't define a templars heal rotation. Personally if I roll healer, use HOTs buffs/debuffs and only hit BOL if a players gets dangerously low. Frees up my time to help throw support or dps if needed.

Templars needed BOL to do the healing at the beginning. Our class has too many channels or cast times.

Devotion

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Healing is a bit over the top - and certain heals more than others. None more than BoL. You dont need to spec into healing very much for BoL to be effective because of how many BoL you can throw out per second as compared to the damage of someone purely built into damage. This is the byproduct of the changes in nerfing damage and healing by 50%. Yes people dont get instantly killed, and I agree with that and appreciate it. But I dont agree with 1 templar keeping a guy alive whos laying on the ground not CC breaking because 'hes a healer'. Once you have 2-3 templars forget about it, youre simply waiting for them to slack and not heal.

Healing should be supplemental to survival, in the same way blocking, dodging, buffing and other factors should be. When someone can just lay helplessly on the ground or even someone is sitting there AFK being kept alive while a DPS rips everything he has into him - theres a problem with healing. Its primarily BoL spam and its rate of fire. When you have someone actually spec'd into healing with a good survival build, you have the result of the healing templar I play with... able to survive against 5-10 players beating on him for at least 2minutes with heal spam. Its a joke on both ends.

it sounds like you want to "guild wars 2" the healing part of the game. That would essentially ruin the templar class unless you give it decent buffs in other areas.

if 10 players cant figure out how to CC one magicka templar out of stam within 2 minutes then........

multiple templars are an issue with BOL spam but so is any multiple combination of class. Personally i hate smart healing and would much prefer some kind of "lock on" healing like they do in TERA with the action cross hair combat system.

Takllin

Minno wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Healing is a bit over the top - and certain heals more than others. None more than BoL. You dont need to spec into healing very much for BoL to be effective because of how many BoL you can throw out per second as compared to the damage of someone purely built into damage. This is the byproduct of the changes in nerfing damage and healing by 50%. Yes people dont get instantly killed, and I agree with that and appreciate it. But I dont agree with 1 templar keeping a guy alive whos laying on the ground not CC breaking because 'hes a healer'. Once you have 2-3 templars forget about it, youre simply waiting for them to slack and not heal.

Healing should be supplemental to survival, in the same way blocking, dodging, buffing and other factors should be. When someone can just lay helplessly on the ground or even someone is sitting there AFK being kept alive while a DPS rips everything he has into him - theres a problem with healing. Its primarily BoL spam and its rate of fire. When you have someone actually spec'd into healing with a good survival build, you have the result of the healing templar I play with... able to survive against 5-10 players beating on him for at least 2minutes with heal spam. Its a joke on both ends.

Hi FENGRUSH:

You think healing is "over the top" from your perspective because you are a stamina sorc who specializes in damage. You think I heal too much with BoL? Too bad. L2P. Every decent stamina build in the game - and I'm assuming yours since you are a decent player can out DPS the big Breath of Life heal globly cooldown per global cooldown if you animation cancel. You only play a sorcerer who gets frustrated because you can kill a healer fast enough (Gee, sorry for using my only survival tool...maybe you should stop using your survival tool like dodging and streaking if it bothers you so much). You have no idea what's it's like to play a healer or a templar otherwise you wouldn't be asking ZoS to nerf you competitors survival tools.

If you don't like healers so much, why don;t you try not maximizing your weapon damage and actually use the tools in the game to prevent it: you are a staimna build with easy access to reverberating bash and major defile and you choose not to use it. That's on you...not because heals are "out of control." If you reverberating bash a tempalr healer, they have to spend 2 global cooldowns just to get that debuff off (a CC break and a cleanse), in the meantime you could lay in 2 animation canceled heavy attacks, and two DPS skills of your choice which should be be enough to finish off the pesky templar.

If you trying to kill some guy who ha 2-3 templars as in the scenario you described above, sorry that's a L2P issue on your part. Mot DPS just want to stack weapon damage and spam the highest damage skills and exepct that to overcome any tanking or healing that other players do and when it doesn;t work come to the forums and say that tanking and healing are over the top (and usually think dodge roll, on the other hand, was over-nerfed).

I die every night in Cyrodiil as do the players I heal. Quite frankly, it isn't that difficult.

Reverb bash is indeed an underrated, excellent tool for stamina builds that often gets neglected because of the tradeoff in dps for survivability and utility. If the only build fengrush has trouble with are healing Templars, that seems balanced to me. No one build should be highly successful against all others. If you keep up cc on the Templar, you'll be able to kill them by depleting stam and won't even need the utility of major defile. From the example provided, sounded like he was trying to burst down easy prey but ignoring the healer? Will side with joys 'tough noogies' vibe on this one.

Joy, excellent OP. Don't agree 100% with everything, but I'd love to see you sit in wroebels chair for a few days and have the reins on Templar tweaks.

Crushing shock too; interrupts are a bane for us templars.

Fengrush knows the counters to templars.
I'd say it's a weakness in his build (not to discredit it, its a very popular and successful build.)

I can see the BOL spam being equally annoying as ambush spam, but it comes down to either increasing or decreasing its cost.

@Joy_Division for #templarpvpcoordinator2016

They changed BoL to be an instant cast now, instead of waiting until the end of the animation for the heal to go off, so Crushin Shock doesn't work again BoL anymore.

Which is also part of the problem now, before there was a bit of a time gap, now you can just rip off BoL constantly. They need to look at how much it's doing.

Another issue is the healing through walls and such. It's ***. I was fighting on the Alessia-Sej bridge the other day, and there was an EP Templar hiding underneath the bridge spamming BoL to heal his buddies on the top...That's a stupid mechanic and needs to be changed.

The heal through walld/below bridges is a nasty tactic one that shouldn't define a good healer. Agreed it should be addressed.

Spamming of BOL, while effective now, still shouldn't define a templars heal rotation. Personally if I roll healer, use HOTs buffs/debuffs and only hit BOL if a players gets dangerously low. Frees up my time to help throw support or dps if needed.

Templars needed BOL to do the healing at the beginning. Our class has too many channels or cast times.

I agree and I play mine the same way when I'm in a healing role.

Templars could use some overall tweaks like many of those listed here by Joy. Just my opinion that BoL is overperforming and needs a bit of a tweak down. Same with the insane burst abilities like Surprise Attack from NB.

Soris

Joy_Division wrote: »

.....If you trying to kill some guy who has 2-3 templars as in the scenario you described above, sorry that's a L2P issue on your part. Mot DPS just want to stack weapon damage and spam the highest damage skills and expect that to overcome any tanking or healing that other players do and when it doesn't work come to the forums and say that tanking and healing are over the top (and usually think dodge roll, on the other hand, was over-nerfed)....

In fact, most dps builds can easily overcome healing builds. Especially stamina dks and nbs, who naturally can dish out extreme dmg numbers in a very short time plus animation cancelling.

DK for example, reveb bash-WB-take flight-execute if done with all animation cancelling, no one can survive this last time I checked. It's a 1.5 second long combo, and the time your enemy break-free bash stun he's already dead or his health in execute range. (Plus that bash stun can be bugged pretty often.) NBs are similar to this.

This might be not possible for stamina sorcs since they have no powerful ultimate as well as templars. But if it's the case, then @FENGRUSH should have asked for stam sorc buff not a one another templar nerf.

Minno

Soris wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

.....If you trying to kill some guy who has 2-3 templars as in the scenario you described above, sorry that's a L2P issue on your part. Mot DPS just want to stack weapon damage and spam the highest damage skills and expect that to overcome any tanking or healing that other players do and when it doesn't work come to the forums and say that tanking and healing are over the top (and usually think dodge roll, on the other hand, was over-nerfed)....

In fact, most dps builds can easily overcome healing builds. Especially stamina dks and nbs, who naturally can dish out extreme dmg numbers in a very short time plus animation cancelling.

DK for example, reveb bash-WB-take flight-execute if done with all animation cancelling, no one can survive this last time I checked. It's a 1.5 second long combo, and the time your enemy break-free bash stun he's already dead or his health in execute range. (Plus that bash stun can be bugged pretty often.) NBs are similar to this.

This might be not possible for stamina sorcs since they have no powerful ultimate as well as templars. But if it's the case, then @FENGRUSH should have asked for stam sorc buff not a one another templar nerf.

I think fengrush is promoter of a stam sorc buff. Regardless heals/dmg need a good impartial balance.

Nifty2g

Takllin wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

this should not be in the pvp section OP, i'd suggest moving this to general discussion to grab developer attention

You also have to make an individual thread of each change you want.....

to be fair majority of the developers don't come into this section of the forum. Throwing this in General of Mechanics forum will gain a lot more use rather than in the pvp section, actually majority of players don't come to this section

Takllin

Nifty2g wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

this should not be in the pvp section OP, i'd suggest moving this to general discussion to grab developer attention

You also have to make an individual thread of each change you want.....

to be fair majority of the developers don't come into this section of the forum. Throwing this in General of Mechanics forum will gain a lot more use rather than in the pvp section, actually majority of players don't come to this section

Very true.

It was more tongue in cheek that they've posted before instead of a general thread of all the issues of the class, to make an individual thread for feedback on each issue :P

Xiphyla

Lol @ people asking to nerf templar heal.

Idinuse

Xiphyla wrote: »

Lol @ people asking to nerf templar heal.

Lol. "You can't have any kind of DPS burst because your role is simply healer in group play." Which by the way should be nerfed to the point of uslessness, since all your other skills and passives already have.

What would people do without the easy Templar kills in PvP? Oh, right, cry for nerf to the only line still keeping Templars alive, a line that already has had it's share of nerfs.

Manoekin

Templar heals are fine. Have to break the Templar's stam pool like a normal fight. Some people are a little too used to instagibbing, and it still happens to me a lot if I try to just break stuns instead of blocking them. Easier said than done when all people do is spam abilities that hit for half my HP and stun me (paging @Wrobel ).

Mumyo

FENGRUSH wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Healing should be supplemental to survival, in the same way blocking, dodging, buffing and other factors should be. When someone can just lay helplessly on the ground or even someone is sitting there AFK being kept alive while a DPS rips everything he has into him - theres a problem with healing. Its primarily BoL spam and its rate of fire. When you have someone actually spec'd into healing with a good survival build, you have the result of the healing templar I play with... able to survive against 5-10 players beating on him for at least 2minutes with heal spam. Its a joke on both ends.

From the guy that seems to spend 99% of his time farming clueless PvE scrubs and other low ranks in the sewers. Maybe you call it "wiping zergs" I dunno?

You can outplay 5-10 milkdrinker(that doesn't want to fight in the first place) on any class.

Against actual PvP'ers, all you need is two average stamina builds focusing a templar healer and rip. Doesn't matter how you build your character, you cant outheal/purge Wrecking Block + Surprise Attack spam. Especially without class shield and stamina management for block.

Fotm sorc wants templar nerfed even more, because "heals". Not remotely surprised. Would be best if there weren't any healers at all in PvP right, ruining your gaming experience? Just a bunch of burst build.

Sorry for taking you and your groups tel var stones - know though that they will go to good use (eventually..).

Enjoyed 'fotm sorc' most of all though.

Minno wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Healing is a bit over the top - and certain heals more than others. None more than BoL. You dont need to spec into healing very much for BoL to be effective because of how many BoL you can throw out per second as compared to the damage of someone purely built into damage. This is the byproduct of the changes in nerfing damage and healing by 50%. Yes people dont get instantly killed, and I agree with that and appreciate it. But I dont agree with 1 templar keeping a guy alive whos laying on the ground not CC breaking because 'hes a healer'. Once you have 2-3 templars forget about it, youre simply waiting for them to slack and not heal.

Healing should be supplemental to survival, in the same way blocking, dodging, buffing and other factors should be. When someone can just lay helplessly on the ground or even someone is sitting there AFK being kept alive while a DPS rips everything he has into him - theres a problem with healing. Its primarily BoL spam and its rate of fire. When you have someone actually spec'd into healing with a good survival build, you have the result of the healing templar I play with... able to survive against 5-10 players beating on him for at least 2minutes with heal spam. Its a joke on both ends.

I'd say lets have ZOS address AOE caps first.
Then lets take a look at how healing relates to the dmg. If you can cause a dent in ball-groups with AOE cap removal, then we can see if BOL is overextending its role.

I'm just worried ZOS will over-nerf BOL to address a dmg system we want reviewed anyway. Not doing it in that order would cause a double nerf to templars and, besides DK, they don't deserve another nerf.

Also, if BOL gets a reduction, then we need a revision to how templars heal; honestly we need to protect the unique way/design intent. Currently I categorize Templar healing as "buff- debuff" healing. You pop focus+puryfing ritual then cast your heals to buff your output (BOL works wonders since it synergizes with Templar low health healing passive. Pop it at low health and it works like a healing execute.). You debuff players with dark flare, reduce Inc dmg with c-focus's armor boost, and players can purge effects away with purifying ritual. Healing ulti (despite its uselessness and bugs) can be used to reduce incoming dmg to entire party.

While I understand the hate for BOL, you'd be killing all templars with a direct nerf without looking at options to protect the way they heal against other classes/Resto staff.

Theres a lot of other issues for templars too to go in hand - but just talking about healing and how the current patch has been impacted by reducing damage. It is good to avoid the burst ganking, but the way small scale fights pan out is pretty silly. Not even talking about AOE caps/6+ people, just smaller group gameplay is pretty stupid once there are multiple templars covering each other with BoL.

thing is that first templar is not allowed to do anything but healing by the community and now healing is OP nerf that.
So if it continues like that, templar will be left with nothing since the cc was also taken entirely away in comparison.

Xiphyla

Idinuse wrote: »

Xiphyla wrote: »

Lol @ people asking to nerf templar heal.

Lol. "You can't have any kind of DPS burst because your role is simply healer in group play." Which by the way should be nerfed to the point of uslessness, since all your other skills and passives already have.

What would people do without the easy Templar kills in PvP? Oh, right, cry for nerf to the only line still keeping Templars alive, a line that already has had it's share of nerfs.

Heals had already been nerfed since last time , if people cant even l2focus healer in whether small/medium/big group play then they really need to L2P imo.

Soris

You should never be able to kill a dedicated healer(or tank) by yourself anyway. It's the purpose of the build to stay alive in focus fire.