My Take on Templars

Joy_Division

Just an assessment from a someone who has rolled a magicka templar since launch. Most of these observations are PvP related which is why I am posting it here rather than the regular character mechanics forum.

Edit: I should emphasize that I think templars have a good balance and can compete and thrive in Cyrodiil. I enjoy playing a templar Every class and skill-line could use some adjustments because the game has changed pretty dramatically since launch and that's the purpose of this thread.

Do we have reliable mobility? No. Do we have instant cast high DPS? No. Are we a great, let alone decent, solo class? No. Is it a bad idea to give us this stuff in the name of balance? Probably. If you give me mobility, difficult to avoid burst DPS, and the other sorts of things some templar players have asked for, you will turn us into a class that excels at everything and thus upset the very balance that is sought for. Templars don't need a makeover or new skills or toys. They just need the confidence that their tools can perform efficiently and effectively.

I have a lot of fun playing my templar, but these are the three issues that seem to come up every night I play and adds unnecessary frustration.

1. I am supposed to be "tanky," however my class tools aren't particularly good at that role.
2. Too many of my skills are awkward and quirky which compromises their intended function
3. My in-class resource regeneration is passively non-existent and "actively" overly restrictive.

Templars as Tanks

It is my belief that "Tanky" classes have been undermined since 1.6. The game has developed in a way that favors burst damage and hit-and-run gameplay that generally avoids damage. ZoS: It's one thing to not give us mobility/escape and expect us to tank, stand our group gloriously and die. It's another to take away the very tools we once had to do just that. This was a mistake because the very damage we are expected to mitigate has increased dramatically, a trend that will only continue with Orsiumim (and I absolutely cringe what new toys these stamina NBs will get with the Dark Brotherhood). Look at your DK players nodding in agreement. There was a time when I used to come across solo DK and templar players. It was a more interesting and fun game.

How I tanked on my templar before 1.6: Class shield that scaled off my highest attribute. Actual tanking skill (blinding flashes). Glass cannon enemies did not have unlimited resources. Soft caps reigned in undesirable damage spikes. Heal builds were noticeably more efficient (interaction between resto staff-templar passives, you nerfed templar passives, using a resto staff didn't tank your spell damage, etc.). It was possible for non-specialized builds to actually block efficiently. Dynamic ultimate regeneration that fueled "tanky" ults. Using eclipse on the numerous people attacking me. Other ways I am forgetting. None of this is either possible or practical now.
How I tanked on my templar since 1.6: Puncturing Sweep spam. Breath of Life when I'm really low on health. That's it. Boring.

I'm OK without mobility. But you need to give me back my tools to deal with these insane high damage builds that never run out of resources. Please stop pretending that templars are somehow unique because they can heal through everything. No we can't. When we are feared, wrecking blowed, crystal fragged, dragon leapt, there is no healing going on. And even if we could, now every class and archetype now has easy access to multiple good heals. Also, since when is a healing spec considered "tanking"? I'm flattered that people think me spamming Breath of Life is somehow equivalent to those folks who want to run heavy armor and wade their way into packs of enemies causing havoc, but let's not pretend that we are in the same ballpark.

Templars once had these tools: a competitive shield, debuffs for enemies, an AoE CC, etc. just give this stuff back so we can do something other than outspam our opponents with puncturing sweeps.

Make our class shield actually useful. It is unconscionable that everybody has known just how bad and inefficient this sun shield has been since 1.6 - months ago - and yet here we are. A healer with light armor and a resto staff will get absolutely destroyed by any high damage stamina build because a NB's basic!!! attack is greater than the amount mitigated by this shield, so let's not even discussed the surprise attack or wrecking blow that is clipped in with an animation cancel. You say you won't address class balance until the next patch after Orsinium, which basically means you willingly allowed this utter stupidity to exist in the game for an entire year. Do you have any idea of how frustrating it is to be a customer of the product you sell? Until that day in the distant future when you figure out how to fix damage shields, make this shield stack off magicka. Do something!
Give us back Eclipse You keep telling us that Cyrodiil is an AvAvA format, not a dueling arena. Ok, fine, I fight the zergs. Please give me back my skill that acknowledged that reality.
Give us back our AoE CC. I only begrudgingly accepted Radiant Destruction in place of blinding flashes because the Jesus Beam was actually decent. Now the damage has been nerfed and it's now dodgeable/avoidable - even though I am forced to leave myself defenseless while using it - I'm calling in my rebate. I want my blinding flashes back since I can no longer block or dodge these insane high damage stamina builds that are running around all over Cyrodiil.
End this nonsense where staff users lose up to 700 spell damage to dual sword users (which will continue to rise as the power creed continues). It is incredibly unfair. I actually want to use a restoration staff and compete.
Dynamic ultimate, dynamic ultimate, dynamic ultimate. Agree aoe crits was undesirable. Having everything on a virtual cooldown is worse for the entire game, not just a tanky player trying to fend off all these high damaging-high damage avoidance-high mobility builds that rule Cyrodiil at the moment.
Less reliance on barrier, more dependence on actual healing with efficient healing builds. Healing has been nerfed too much. The restoration staff is just a terrible weapon. I know it is mildly frustrating for you wrecking blow spammers who chose not to use defile, a tool in the game you have available to counter healing, to kill a templar who uses breath of life, but the fact is only the big heal from breath of life will save me (so if some random PUG is around I am in trouble, to say nothing of the stun that accompanies wrecking blow). We died way way back in 1.4 when damage was lower and healing was better and nobody accused the Templar of being OP. We will die even easier once you get your hands on that Briarheart set.
I still think the no stamina regeneration nerf to blocking was a lazy band-aid measure that has punished the wrong players: those who didn't abuse block. I have a tiny stamina pool, which is absolutely necessary to break CCs. There are very few times it is advantageous to take your tutorial's advice and actually block, bash, or dodge. Just make it so blockers who use abilities have their damage and effectiveness cut by 50%.

Should there be an option for mobility? Yes, not necessarily in the templar line, but maybe in the mage's guild (equilibrium is an obsolete skill atm) or the undaunted. I always thought somewhere in the game, there should be a skill that players could use their magicka pool for mobility. Would make for more options, more diverse builds, more interesting. Right now you pretty much have to go vampire which is overly restrictive, potentially immersion breaking for some players, and comes with its own drawbacks (camo-hunter). Plus mist form has been overly nerfed at the moment.

Templars and their wonky skills

Too many Templar skills are inefficient and awkward, thus compromising their intended function. You would hear a lot less call for nerfs if the skills that ordinary players, who are not hardcore theorycrafters and count on ZoS for balance, use actually performed their job reasonably well. Templars who rely on sun shield for defense will get Rekt and I don't blame them for expressing their displeasure on the forums as much as I tire of hearing it. This makes the class overly cumbersome to use and potentially very frustrating for new players. That being said, there are enough good skills to make a very effective build. Players just need to know them and their quirks.

Aedric Spear: Pretty solid skill line with the exception of Sun Shield, which is actually a well designed skill, but is completely undermined because it scales off health.

Puncturing Strikes. It's great, but believe it or not, most of us would prefer a "nerf" and to remove the knockback altogether. Handing out CC immunity with little associated cost matters in a competitive situation. Replace knockback so the opponent is merely put off balance and have the ability function as an interrupt. This adjustment keeps with the original theme of the skill
Piercing Javelin: High cost, low range, low damage, mediocre effect makes it difficult to justify using this ability when other options are available. It's a specialized skill that does not have a special effect. A poor combination. Just uses blazing spear instead
Focused Charge: Just rename the skill "toppling charge" because that's the only morph worth using. Maybe it is psychological, but I still think the annoying cooldown is still there.
Spear Shards: My opinion of the ability has changed. See the update section.
Sun Shield: You are asking a 3.5K shield to protect me from players who can do in excess of 9K damage with ordinary skills in one global-cooldown period. This is supposed to be a capstone ability!

The nerf to health was probably the worst decision ZoS made for 1.6. It is responsible for the glass cannon meta, where everyone runs around in glass cannon builds that was so bad ZoS had to implement a huge blanket nerf on damage just to make the game playable (which has introduced more problems btw). You cannot ask competitive players to run a key skill that does not scale off a high attribute (especially when another class has a similar skill that does).

Radiant Sweep: My biggest problem with this ultimate is that it has a very short range and it misses targets that are on a different elevation often enough to dissuade me from using it in a competitive environment. This needs a larger range and needs to hit everything. An ultimate HAS to work every time, efficiently and effectively, or else players will get frustrated (and rightfully so...we rely on these!).
The anachronistic Balanced Warrior passive is very frustrating to us magicka users now that weapon power no longer is at all relevant for us (it used to be as it modified resto staffs). Please make it so it modifies weapon and spell power.

Dawn's Wrath: This is intended to be the Templar's DPS line and has some nice skills, but that DPS is too difficult to tap.

Sun Fire: It's not so much the slow traveling time, it's that the damage isn't very good and DoTs are bad in PvP. Shame because the inclusion of major prophecy to this spell is actually interesting.

DoTs need a total workover. Dots are mitigated multiple times by the champion system and proc the target's resilient passive which winds up healing them. The total damage DoTs inflict is hardly greater than spammable immediate offensive skills which makes them terrible choices - even if they were not so easily cleansed / purged.

Solar Flare: Skill and both morphs I think are conceptually fine. It's not so much the travel speed (in fact, I find the slow speed an advantage as it makes it easier to time burst and throws opponent's timing off). An immobile templar with a useless class shield and no blinding flashes makes trying to use this a dicey proposition. Very useful, but caveat emptor. In PvE, a flare spamming templar can do good (albeit I don't think top) DPS.
Backlash: This skill does *NOT* scale with spell damage. So it's capped and you can't even improve that cap which makes this a DPS loss.
Eclipse: In an AvAvA format or in dungeons, templars are going to come across multiple opponents. It's bad enough this skill only reflects spells and that opponents can CC break the effect (and thus grant them immunity), but now templars are limited to a single cast? Exactly how are templars supposed to defend themselves?

It is quite simple. If that NB can spam surprise attack against me, there should be NO limitations to what skills I can spam. Period. End of story. Here is how to make the skill fair for both the templar and her opponentS, yes, opponentS.

• This skill has to respect CC immunity. Annoying but it would be too strong otherwise.
• An opponent who breaks this needs to have immunity from this spell because CC breaking is expensive. I would like to CC them since they are getting immunity, but asking them to CC break again is not fair. How to handle this...
• Morph1: The damage version. Currently the Unstable Core morph is supposed to do this, but the skill's low damage make the +40% buff pointless as 40% of a small number is still a small number. The damage to this morph needs to acknowledge the fact an opponent is getting a powerful combat state without suffering the usual penalty that accompanies it.
• Morph 2: The debuff version. Keeps the current modest damage and heal mechanic, but adds an aftereffect similar to how the Mass Hysteria skill works..
• This obviously could be purged/cleansed and thus remove the effect (and aftereffects) entirely.
• The spell cannot be used against bosses with ignore mechanics. It can, however, be used against 'elite' NPCs that would have their projectiles reflected by a Dragonknight or a sword and shield user, i.e. all of them.
• NPCs can now CC break so this should not be a PvE issue.
• The skill can be casted as often as the templar wishes. Opponents who are CC immune or bosses are hit with just the time bomb mechanic. Time bombs cannot be stacked by the same templar.

Radiant Destruction: See below.
Nova: The problem with this great PvE ultimate is that if an ally does not hit the synergy, it effects are underwhelming and it too easy for opponents to simply walk out of the Nova without much happening to them. It is very frustrating to try an activate this synergy because its trigger is tied to a tiny area in a specific spot.
The Enduring Rays passive is poorly designed in that it is at times a nerf: the time spent waiting for backlash to explode is lost DPS, if this increases the channeled time of skills, that's wasted time. Have it modify the abilities we want (Nova, Sun Fire) and have it do something else to the other abilities

Restoring Light: Bread and butter of the class. Keeps raids afloat, but has two awful skills, Healing Ritual and Radiant Aura that lock healers into boring cookie-cutter builds.

Rushed Ceremony: I actually like smart healing. However, it means this skill is not guaranteed to target who I want it to and those secondary heals are not competitive in a meta with no soft caps reigning in the insane damage thrown around.
Healing Ritual: Outclassed by healing springs in every way. You are immobile, it has a cast time, you can get interrupted, and the radius is very small. It is efficient healing, but the actual amount of healing is just not there which is probably why none of my raid leaders asked me to use it back when PvE raiding was an ESO activity (not to mention the Mantikora poison spear phase requires you to move). Either make this skill a channeled HoT or a vigor like skill in which the healing effect follows the templar.
Restoring Aura: Probably the worst skill in the game as its function is duplicated and rendered moot by a generic stamina potion. Note: the Repentance morph is exceedingly useful.
Cleansing Ritual: Skill is nicely designed and has many practical use. Appreciate the change that allows it to buff heals upon casting rather than having to wait 2 seconds. Unfortunately, PVE oriented players who takes the extended morph are really hurting themselves.
Rune Focus: A versatile skill that got a much needed aftereffect from leaving the rune. But...
8 seconds is really short for a buff and don't really derive benefits for staying in that rune. Also, the restoring focus morph that grants minor vitality is not at all competitive.
Rite of Passage: When I raided competitively, I was told by my raid leaders not to use this because it affected only half the raid and its effects were easily replicated by the healing springs spell. And they were correct. More interesting gameplay would be to tone down barrier which does not require much skill as that huge shield follows the ball-group around and instead make this "ultimate" competitive (the templar has to stand still, bit more strategy and thought required). It should do more than heal and should go back to the awesome 1.5 animation that made it clear this is a zone of aedric power you should stay within rather than the yellow spittings that comprise the new animation.
The nerf to the Mending passive needs serious reevaluation. The damage flying around Cyordiil is of the burst variety, not sustained. This means often times players go straight from moderate health to dead, which makes this passive pointless.

Does this mean templars are like DKs and plagued with obsolete skills that just bad in a post 1.5 ESO? No! It means I have to be very knowledgeable of the quirks, inefficiencies, and difficulties in using these skills in order to play competitively. So that's what I do. I ignore the radiant aura and explosive change morphs, inflict a CC before using puncturing sweep to tank rather than sun shield, and only use dark flare when no enemies can interrupt me. That's why I have fun; because I know the class well enough to avoid msot of its pitfalls. So I can compete, usually.

However, when I am confronted by multiple opponents casting spells at me, my blood pressure rises because of the inconsistency of the single target eclipse nerf in an AvAvA format. When I am confronted by a skillful high damaging stamina build, I curse sun shield and the highly questionable mechanic of basically forcing light armor templars to fight like sorcerers without hardened ward + bolt escape and Nightblades without cloak + burst. I am a healer. You release light armor sets implying we should wear them. But then took away the class tools I need to survive while wearing that light armor. And I don't have the mobility and burst DPS the other non-heavy armor archetypes have (meanwhile they have nearly as good heals as I do!). That's not fair.

Templars are uniquely terrible at passive resource management

Templars lack from a passive in-class mechanism that aids in resource regeneration. Way way way back in Beta, ZoS changed the Restoring Spirit passive from granting the templar a percentage based return in magicka for activating a dawn's wrath ability to one that is just a flat small cost reduction. This difference in passive resource management is very real and quite dramatic. A templar will only get a small 4% reduction in costs. By way of comparison a sorcerer will attain a 5% reduction in magicka and stamina costs, a 15% ultimate reduction and significant rates of resource regeneration.

But what about radiant aura? It gives a free +10% resource generation? It's not "free" and there is no guarantee you will even get the 10% because that skill must be slotted on the bar you are actually using.

What about Channeled Focus skill that restores magicka? It's a specific morph - thus forcing templars to forgo the other morph - and again it is a skill the must be slotted on our bars and actually used.

I wouldn't mind so much that templars have "active" regeneration, however the overly restrictive nature of specific skills, specific morphs, on specific bars, and having to actually active them is a prohibitive opportunity cost. We are competing against other classes that get significant resources for doing nothing. We get ... wait for it ... a way to fill soul gems!

ZoS originally had the templar resource management concept correct: it alone of the classes could provide stamina regeneration for its group. It restored it magicka through actually using aedric themed skills, ten possible morphs so that just about every type of templar would have something always on their bar. It couldn't generate resources passively, yet it could actively. Unique, fair, interesting, believable considered the fantasy setting. Go back to this.

Radiant Aura needs to be redesigned so that it is not competing against a generic stamina potion. The Channeled Focus morph should be rolled up into a passive the restores magicka whenever templars use certain skills. It was originally designed to do this with dawn's wrath abilities, which was fine. Right now, ZoS has got this mechanic in the restoring light tree, which is also fine. Maybe make it part of the Master Ritualist passive so that when a templar activates a skill from this tree, she restores some magicka. You had this right, why did you change it?

Two other observations regarding templars:

Radiant Destruction - It replaced a highly useful skill beloved by many who used it to help their templars tank. Whatever replaces it has to be good. This skill used to be. It now isn't. That's neither cool nor fair.

Here we get into the whole MY take on templars bit. This is my opinion, I don't claim it to be the Truth. Most non-templars, particularly stamina players, thought this skill was OP. They hated it. Well guess what? I hate their cloaks, shield stacking, unblockable fear spams, crystal frags, reflective scales, uninterruptable wrecking blow spams, triple camo hunter procs from stealth, 40 meter snipes, their vigor that encroaches on my supposed specialty, bolt escapes, unskilled steel tornado spam. I hate all of it. They hate my Jesus Beam? Too bad. L2P. So many players would come on these forums and tell me to L2P against all the OP crap they throw at me and then hypocritically lobby ZoS to nerf my skill while ignoring their own advice because it's too hard to bash, cloak, interrupt, cleanse, stun, shield, or heal to counter a Jesus Beam? I have to do this, why can't they? Give me a break. So trite is the complaint that the "baddies" won because ZoS "dumbed down" the game to cater to "casuals." Look in the mirror. .

The fact of the matter is every class, spec, and archetype needs good abilities that opponents hate and fear. Jesus Beam no longer qualifies. It's damage has been nerfed so many times that the threshold where is it is an actual DPS gain is noticeably lower now in the IC than previously (my PvE friends claim 15%, I don't think it's quite that.) Worse, the skill (and all channels) is now dodgeable/avoidable. This is not remotely balanced because a templar still has to stand with his hand on his crotch doing nothing: snail-like movement, no block-casting, no weaving in attacks, utterly defenseless and subject to interruption. Now this skill is stuck with all the disadvantages that comes with channels without the corresponding benefits. That's not balanced. The skill is no longer reliable at its function because all it takes now is for a target to dodge roll, avoid the attack, and then they are out of range from the templar because she had to stand still (this apart from the potential hazards from other players that the templar willingly subjects herself to). The skill, like many templar skills, is only decent Vs. PvE mobs. It would be one thing if this replaced some mediocre skill nobody cares about like piercing javelin. But templars lost blinding flash for this!

• Channeled attacks are now avoidable which makes the whole mechanic pointless. Revert the channel mechanic. The immobile and defenseless offensive channel was fine and fair counterplay for countering defensive oriented players.
• Failing the above, remove the channeled mechanic from the game entirely. Then give us back blinding flashes (preferably) or make Radiant Destruction a boring carbon copy of other ranged executes ala mage's fury/impale so at least I won't get myself killed trying to use this skill.

The restoration staff is a terrible weapon.

The highest spellpower build will throw about 700 spell damage down the drain for using a staff - a number that will be even higher if easily accessed buffs from stuff like spell power cure, Molag Kena, etc., are considered. This is ridiculous and not fair.

It would be one thing if the restoration staff had potent skills and passives to make up for that lost spellpower. It doesn't. It's passives offer nothing in the way of defense or offense or stats, are centered around underwhelming effects from heavy attacks that are not used in competitive situations, and can't even offer enough healing to outdo some who uses two swords. I have never played a fantasy game where a blacksmith's iron weapons provided better healing than an magic weapon specifically dedicated to the job of restoration, but that's what the Elder Scrolls Online is. I will grant Healing springs is a top notched PvE ability because PvE is about sustained healing, but you are throwing hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of spellpower away just to use that skill. That is bad design.

To claims that I am underestimating how good the staff is, I would counter:

You do lose all that spellpower. That's a fact. My templar heals are stronger with my swords than yours with a restoration staff, even with its passives. That's also a fact. If you are a healer in a raid or small group, you will be a priority target for other players, which makes your staff a liability. I could equip a shield, gain a bonus spellpower from an extra armor-set bonus, be able to mitigate more damage than you - potentially a lot more - and actually gain useful defensive passives to keep me alive rather than those obsolete heavy attack passives. I've been in situations where enemy raids said "focus Joy Division." The restoration staff will get you killed and rapid regeneration will not keep you alive in such instances. Why is this even a discussion? Why does it have to be so damn hard to actually use the weapon designed to heal?

ZoS, please:

• Stop penalizing magkica players who want to use the weapons they were intended to use. It's prohibitive and continues to get worse as spell damage values rise with every expansion.
• Look at your game. We don't use heavy attacks. Even if we did, the paltry amount of healing and the minor gain in resources are just bad compared to the amount of damage flying around. The Cycle of Life and Essence Drain passives are terrible. Staff users can't block anymore and even when they do, a little magicka isn't helping them counter the 8k wrecking blows so rework Absorb.
• Regeneration is very mediocre and Force Siphon is just bad (it used to be ok when it could proc more than once per attack). Combat prayer needs to be more than just a minor beserk buff.

It was a lot easier to heal with a restoration staff at launch. The game has totally changed and you really ought to reconsider the anachronism that is the restoration staff.

Whenever I get invited into a group, they look at me as "The healer." That's a problem. Partly because I did not make my build for healing and I get stuck doing it. But mostly because stereotypes are bad and become a justification for lazy game mechanics. It doesn't matter that restoration staffs stink because Templars. It doesn't matter Blazing Shield is useless because Breath of Life. It's OK sorcerers suck at healing because they just spam shields and should let the templar do her job. Come on.

We want to be good healers. We'd like to be able to tank and DPS as well

Update

Going to tag @Wrobel now that he (finally) has a Forum account and it is confirmed that ZoS is working on rebalancing stuff.

Since I made this thread, Maelstrom Arena has been released and my experience running my Templar in it has reinforced most of my observations noted here. The arena brutally exposes the class's major faults: a useless shield, awkward DPS skills that require you to either be in places or lock you into a channel, and the lack of tank/CC skills. It is *extremely* difficult to try and "tank" or mitigate the damage the adds do in the traditional sense of tanking (i.e. shields, CC, damage reduction, damage avoidance, etc). Just jab EVERYTHING while standing in your purifying ritual, which is zzzzzz boring. Other comments.

• The channeled mechanics meant Dark Flare and Radiant Destruction were impractical to rely upon.
• I died a lot because I could neither move nor tank.
• Radiant Sweep's lack of range and unspectacular effect was very noticeable and frustrating. I just used Nova.
• The one target restriction on Eclipse made me literally want to punch my computer.
• My sorcerer's mines and liquid lightning were far superior to what I got out from my templar's Blazing Spear.
• My sorcerer had a 20K shield I could precast. My templar had a 7K shield that lasted 6 seconds. Can we stop pretending that tanks stack health please?

Another thing to comment on is Blazing Spear. My opinion of this ability has changed significantly when I originally wrote this.

In the post month or so, ZoS has nerfed this ability twice; once by removing half the damage ticks (and thus half the Burning Light procs) and once flat out because the ability allegedly was "doing more damage than intended." I don't know exactly what their "intentions" are, but they need to be seriously reconsidered. As do their priorities. Really ZoS, it was more important to nerf an already underwhelming skill than it is to make half the DK's abilities remotely functional?

In any event, the theme and intent of this skill is fine. Even the slow travel time I am OK with because a templar theme is relatively easy to avoid DPS. However, the actual effects of this skill are underwhelming and do not properly reward a Templar for the skill necessary to actually put this spell onto an enemy. The specific issues:

• The short range of this ability is 25 as been exposed since battle spirit has extended the range of 28 meter skills by an additional 8 meters.
• The damage was always modest and needed a boost. But ZoS has never compensated for the lost Burning Light procs which need to also be compensated for in addition to a standard damage buff.
• This should have some sort are area CC, especially since Tempars lost theirs. Not a stun as that would be too powerful, but the other targets that ball up should get his with some sort of minor debuff.

Lastly, I learned that the Backlash skill is *not* modified by spell damage. This means it's capped value is really capped and will not benefit from the various spell/weapon damage buffs you get in combat which will make it a DPS loss.

I would encourage ZoS to talk to us! I really think it is a mistake that ZoS relies on its internal staff to identify, test, and develop new game systems and balance adjustments. What winds up happening is you invest so much time into a concept that you are unwilling to make changes to it, no matter how cogently we identify flaws and potential problems. We then wind up playing an imbalanced game with broken mechanics for months on end, which leads into unnecessary nerfs and sweeping blanket changes that just wind up breaking more stuff than it solves. Please stop looking and talking amongst yourselves and try some dialogue with the people who actually pay money to play this game every night.

Again, Templars are fun to play! Let's just make them more fun

Islyn

My take on Templars: just stop crying. Seriously.

(No offence to joy division because tldr

A Templar

Akinos

Islyn wrote: »

My take on Templars: just stop crying. Seriously.

(No offence to joy division because tldr

A Templar

You told him to stop crying, even though it's not a cry thread. He made a very well written and thought out thread. Unlike your post.

Then you said "no offense" as if that makes everything okay. Thank you for the wonderful contribution to this thread. Not.


ANYWAYS, it was great read Joy, however I disagree on one thing. I've found piercing javalin, ( the magicka morph) to be amazing in PvP. Yes it cost a bit more magicka, but it has great damage when thrown from max range, I've hit people as high as 10k on crits with burning light proc. It also has a fast travel time and of course the knockback is good too. It's like the destro staff knockback, but better imo. And you can use it with any weapon.

Winnamine

This was a really thoughtful, in depth analysis of templar strengths and weaknesses. I like it!

Do disagree on a couple of points though. I personally think the blazing shield ability is one of our best skills. A lot of templars, particularly templar healers, run high health which makes it very useful indeed. I've been getting killing blows with it in group. Also been seeing it on my death recaps, Alomar keeps hitting me with crazy high shield damage .

As for Rememberance...when I see that in pvp, I generally assume that the healer is either bad or has a low alliance rank and can't get barrier/warhorn, even then nova would probably be better. Like you said, only hits a few ppl, and main effect is easily replicated by BoL, but the worst thing about it is that it gets your healers killed. Most pvp is sooooo dynamic, we are always moving, and if you get caught away from the group during a fight, good chance you're done. You know how far your group could be from you after you finish a 4 second channel? Too far. And that poor healer, all alone with his hands in the air and golden lights shooting from his fingertips, is a virtual beacon to anyone looking to take out a healer.

blabafat

Very interesting and detailed post

A few things I'd like to add:

So I don't think Templars are in a terrible position. Overall, I personally think it's a balanced class. Obviously, it is not absolutely perfect.

A few things that I think should be changed that wouldn't be OP:

-Radiant destruction should not be dodgeable while being channeled
-Eclipse bugs need to be fixed
-CC needs to synergize better, toppling charge has a delay after using it, eclipse, jabs, and javelin CCs are very weak
-Ultimates should be more viable. Nova is probably the best one, and it's only strong for group play. In a solo environment, it's useless. The synergy is what makes it powerful. Radial Sweep is WAY worse than dawnbreaker.
-Blazing Shield is very weak. If the size of the shield is going to stay the same, it needs to be longer than 6 seconds

All in all I think Templar is the most balanced class in the current state of the game. Some changes, like the ones I listed above need to be considered of course.

Soris

This is too much text but I read it all and agree most of it. Mostly about blazing shield, flashes, eclipse, aura, focus, sweep ulti and channelled/cast timed nature of skills. In addition to these, jab spam issue a.k.a there is nothing else even half as effective.

Anyways, thank you for bringing this up. Hopefully it won't get ignored or misunderstood like other threads.
Tagging Zos for the sake of communication.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert

Rudyard

Amazingly well articulated and spot on post, Joy Division! You hit so many nails-on-the-head, especially your points in the Spoilers section! BRAVO!

You are one hell of a Templar to go against too, btw. Respect.

pkb16_ESO2

Is the Jabs shield bug already solved?
Because you didnt mention it and its a terrible bug.
I wont play my temp till its addressed.

Elara_Northwind

I completely agree, but would like to add that toppling Charge is also a constant annoyance, to me at least. Around 50% of the time when using this skill it will make me unable to block or use any of my other skills for about 5-10 seconds. This is obviously a life or death kind of situation at times in pvp I rely on this skill on my melee bar and have had to currently swap it for either shield or 2h gap closers, depending on which weapon I have equipped at the time, which are obviously stamina skills, so not really something I am happy about doing as stamina is precious when you have so little...

Ishammael

Read all of it. Great point. I don't have quite the time on templar that you do, but I have run into many of the same issues.

Cheers!

dodgehopper_ESO

Akinos wrote: »

Islyn wrote: »

My take on Templars: just stop crying. Seriously.

(No offence to joy division because tldr

A Templar

You told him to stop crying, even though it's not a cry thread. He made a very well written and thought out thread. Unlike your post.

Then you said "no offense" as if that makes everything okay. Thank you for the wonderful contribution to this thread. Not.


ANYWAYS, it was great read Joy, however I disagree on one thing. I've found piercing javalin, ( the magicka morph) to be amazing in PvP. Yes it cost a bit more magicka, but it has great damage when thrown from max range, I've hit people as high as 10k on crits with burning light proc. It also has a fast travel time and of course the knockback is good too. It's like the destro staff knockback, but better imo. And you can use it with any weapon.

I agree on the Javelin. Javelin is a nice cc ability, and with the way other abilities work its good to use it first. Toss your javelin, charge, jabs jabs jabs.

My first character on the live server was a Templar Tank. I definitely view the class through tank lenses, which is why I'm pretty unhappy with the changes of the game as they've developed. Mostly the class just needs some tweaks like you're saying here Joy. I know I've suggested a lot of these as well. I really agree with the premise that all classes should be able to take on all roles. The IC changes did a lot to tear down at least the illusion that this was possible.

Akinos

SadieJoan wrote: »

I completely agree, but would like to add that toppling Charge is also a constant annoyance, to me at least. Around 50% of the time when using this skill it will make me unable to block or use any of my other skills for about 5-10 seconds. This is obviously a life or death kind of situation at times in pvp I rely on this skill on my melee bar and have had to currently swap it for either shield or 2h gap closers, depending on which weapon I have equipped at the time, which are obviously stamina skills, so not really something I am happy about doing as stamina is precious when you have so little...

Exactly why I try not to use toppling, it keeps me from attacking/blocking way to often, and it happens way more often during times of server lag. So I almost always use critical charge when I use my 2 hander. Or shield charge when I rock sword & board.

Minno

As

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Akinos wrote: »

Islyn wrote: »

My take on Templars: just stop crying. Seriously.

(No offence to joy division because tldr

A Templar

You told him to stop crying, even though it's not a cry thread. He made a very well written and thought out thread. Unlike your post.

Then you said "no offense" as if that makes everything okay. Thank you for the wonderful contribution to this thread. Not.


ANYWAYS, it was great read Joy, however I disagree on one thing. I've found piercing javalin, ( the magicka morph) to be amazing in PvP. Yes it cost a bit more magicka, but it has great damage when thrown from max range, I've hit people as high as 10k on crits with burning light proc. It also has a fast travel time and of course the knockback is good too. It's like the destro staff knockback, but better imo. And you can use it with any weapon.

I agree on the Javelin. Javelin is a nice cc ability, and with the way other abilities work its good to use it first. Toss your javelin, charge, jabs jabs jabs.

My first character on the live server was a Templar Tank. I definitely view the class through tank lenses, which is why I'm pretty unhappy with the changes of the game as they've developed. Mostly the class just needs some tweaks like you're saying here Joy. I know I've suggested a lot of these as well. I really agree with the premise that all classes should be able to take on all roles. The IC changes did a lot to tear down at least the illusion that this was possible.

As a starter combo, jav is superior to dark flare in that its instant cast. Pop spell power buff, hurl jav ,start rotation.

@Joy_Division flawless post that was fluid and on point. This passionate speech goes hand in hand with @blabafat guide on templars skills. While his explains to new templars which are great to use, Joy's explains why those bad skills are bad.

As a user of flash, I must say I miss it only dodge skill comes close to the defense that skill had.

Glory

Read it all, nice summary.

I personally think Templar resource management is okay... I agree with the skills write up.

I'm particularly disappointed (as you are) with Blazing Shield, Vampires Bane, RD, and the always useless morphs of Restoring Light. Also would love them to reevaluate ultimates!

AriBoh

Such a shame the OP will be completely ignored.

timidobserver

Nice read. You should save these ideas for after Orsinium and repost it or update the thread. They've pretty much made it clear that they aren't even talking about skill balance until after Orsinium. You will probably be more likely to get dev feedback once we start moving toward the next update, which will have more class balancing.

Vilestride

Good read man, but I disagree with a few things. First and foremost, though templar has some issues I think it is far from underpowered/Disadvantaged or ina generally bad spot. I completely agree with blab that it is probably the most balanced class atm and a few minor things would make it as close to perfect.

Secondly I disagree with the philosophy that any class should be able to take any role and the game will and should never lean that way. IF that is the ideology, dont even give us classes, just give us all the abilities a select amount of ability points to choose passives and active abilities with and away you go. Every class should lean to a side of the fence.

My main issue (and this is across all classes but I am more knowledgeable about a templars) is that there are so many abilities that hardly get used because they are barely viable. they don't have to be better than other abilities, but they should all be on par in one way or another. This also applies to morphs, why ever have the choice if one morph is usually clearly inferior.

Some small changes I have had in mind were for example -

Radial sweep ultimate - Either needs to be as cheap as incapacitating strike OR perhaps if the empowering sweep morph restored stamina, as it is clearly a tanking ability. Maybe have empowering give stam and the other be either cheaper or have an AoE knockdown like dawn-breaker.

Sun Shield - Blazing shield either needs to hit harder now that its a smaller shield, OR the shield strength needs to go a little higher. maybe not back to 30 but even 20-25% would be nice. The other morph needs to be either significantly cheaper than its blazing brother or significantly larger, currently it is not worth taking.

Javelin - I hear you all saying its viable, but IMO should still hit a little harder to make it onto anyone's bar with so many other great abilities available.


Vamp bane - Dot could be even 2 seconds longer.

Joy_Division

Thanks for the kind words from many of you!

I should emphasize that Templars are fun to play and I think they are actually fine balance-wise Just trying to make it a bit more fun. I edited the original post to make this clear

I made this because @ZOS_GinaBruno said they were going to work on class balance after Orsinium and by that time my semester load will prevent me from spending as much time in those discussions as I'd like. So figured I'd get my thoughts down now and the thread will be here when ZoS starts re-examining these things.

I'm glad other templar players are getting use out of some skills I don't value very highly. Tells me others have found ways to have fun and play effectively with the class! I still hold onto my assessment, but it is just and only that, an assessment.

contact.opiumb16_ESO

i play a templar since beta, alonside with a sorcerer, recently rerolled NB and i have a baby DK. I am amazed how strong can be other classes compared to templars. I tried to find out why, and i have a response.

NB and sorcerers are very mobile and escape friendly, while templars and dk are supposed to be tankier. The problem with templars is the lack of AOE CC, lack of passive ressource management and synergies between class skills, passives and weapons.

Vilestride

contact.opiumb16_ESO wrote: »

i play a templar since beta, alonside with a sorcerer, recently rerolled NB and i have a baby DK. I am amazed how strong can be other classes compared to templars. I tried to find out why, and i have a response.

NB and sorcerers are very mobile and escape friendly, while templars and dk are supposed to be tankier. The problem with templars is the lack of AOE CC, lack of passive ressource management and synergies between class skills, passives and weapons.

you say we lack AoE CC sure, but instead you get to be able to heal your entire group and stop them from dying, thats pretty handy IMO

If you REAAALY want the mobility simply go vamp and use mist form, bam!

jhharvest

Yes. I agree with almost everything OP said. Just a couple of notes based on my personal experiences:

Toppling charge bugs out for me 50% of the time, disarming me for 10-20 seconds after charge. Obviously I've had to unslot it. It only ever happens with this skill. I now use the 2h Stampede even though I'm a magicka build, which means I have no stuns on bars, but this is infinitely better than getting disarmed by my own skills.

Eclipse - I actually use this, even in its current neutered form. If I had the choice I'd like it to have two morphs: one that can only be cast once but CANNOT be CC broken and gives CC immunity after it expires, and the other that you can cast as many times as you want, like the old Eclipse was. Even if neither of these changes get implemented it should be fixed so that either: a) you cannot cast it when a bubble is active (so you can't waste your damage component), or b) recasting it makes the bubble explode immediately (so you don't waste the damage component). The damage is a bit low but this would at least give you a reliable long range damage skill.

Blazing shield - this will be controversial but I think ZoS took the wrong approach when they implemented the 50% reduction on damage, heals and shields. Instead I think they should have increased max HP by a percentage. You already get a battle spirit increase on HP, just make this scale to max HP. This way templar and DK shields would have been more in line with Sorc shield, and overall time-to-kill would have been increased. This buff would have probably hurt Nightblades a little but as they seem the be the dominant class at the moment anyway I'm not sure if this would really be a bad thing. Of course difficult to prove one way or another without having access to full statistics on class distribution and KD ratios etc.

drogon1

Read the entirety of the OP's lengthy post. It is well-reasoned, and clearly laid out - and shows a remarkable degree of knowledge about the Templar class. ZoS class developers would be foolish to overlook this post.

I will add that I agree with just about all the OP's main points.

Baphomet

Extremely well-written analysis of the templar class, which both brings up the classes' issues that have been pointed out to Zenimax for months and months on end, but also factor in how the current meta makes things a lot worse than they used to be.

Akinos

I doubt todays server hardware upgrades will do anything for the toppling charge delay issue...but let's hope it does

Alcast

ask my Stamina Templar how he feels, he feels f...useless since Imp City compared to other classes...:GJ ZOS with 50% dmg mitigation BS.

caeliusstarbreaker

"Miniscule" Changes I would advocate for, but ultimately I'll live with(out):

I am not asking for more mobility since I don't think its in the framework of the class itself. We have 2 classes that mobility and escape are inherent in design, and I disagree with this having to be brought to templars for viability. My suggestions are in the vain of rounding out some in class abilities that I think take away from a bit of the "clunky" feelings templars have, given their design. All-and-all I think that Templars are as close to the epitome of "balance" this game may be able to provide at the moment, which in turn leads to a jack-of-all-trades and master-of-none feeling. It could use a little polishing however.


-CC rework or better synergy between them. They are a little backwards in their use together. Totally game breaking.. no. I haven't arrived on a conclusion on exactly how to go about this, so I'll leave it up to the community to kind of get a feel for it there. (This includes eclipse, jabs/sweeps, charge, shards etc. They ultimately seem to hinder each other rather than synergizing)

-Our main DPS ability is a channel, which is fine.. You actually don't have to do anything to it. Main reason, other than damage for using this ability instead of going to outside trees is that it can proc, at 25% chance, burning light. I would like to see burning light proc chance up'ed to maybe 40%. I feel, that since we channel our primary dmg skill, and it provides a weak CC that an increased % chance to proc a passive, since this skill doesn't provide any debuff/empowerment/etc, wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, and give templars a little extra feel good. The situation allows for a slight increase in sting, as going outside class trees for dmg denies at least partially the ability to take advantage of the passive.

-Just get rid of Backlash and its morphs. That really should have been the skill you took out for radiant destruction anyways. Give us back blinding flashes. For magicka temps it offers them a way to deal with wearing cloth a little better, given blazing shields huge decrease in utility and for stamplars it would give us a use for that blue bar we have on our interface that aids in survival, since we don't possess the healing of our magicka cousins, nor the mobility of other classes.

-I would like to see a rework of the ulti's... specifically, and maybe exclusively, radial sweep and its morphs. It is no where near as dynamic as other ults in the game and its utility is very low given its radius. Nova has it niche in group play, given healing nerfs Rite of Passage is lackluster because you can just DPS through it. A possible glance at the ulti's wouldn't hurt, although I don't think this is of a higher priority than rounding out the class skills a little more.

Islyn

Akinos wrote: »

Islyn wrote: »

My take on Templars: just stop crying. Seriously.

(No offence to joy division because tldr

A Templar

You told him to stop crying,

Oh Sorry I meant ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE crying re templar - not him xD Sorrryyyyy! @Akinos @Joy_Division

ETA I always read Joy_Division's posts and like them (Mainly at first because love the band of same name but...)

Rainingblood

Akinos

I doubt todays server hardware upgrades will do anything for the toppling charge delay issue...but let's hope it does

Islyn wrote: »

Akinos wrote: »

Islyn wrote: »

My take on Templars: just stop crying. Seriously.

(No offence to joy division because tldr

A Templar

You told him to stop crying,

Oh Sorry I meant ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE crying re templar - not him xD Sorrryyyyy! @Akinos @Joy_Division

ETA I always read Joy_Division's posts and like them (Mainly at first because love the band of same name but...)

WillhelmBlack

Good post. Blinding Flashes and Blazing Shield back please!
I thought I knew Templar, was wrong. The passive that nerfs Backlash and other morph, never even realised until now!

danno8

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Good post. Blinding Flashes and Blazing Shield back please!
I thought I knew Templar, was wrong. The passive that nerfs Backlash and other morph, never even realised until now!

Backlash should explode immediately upon hitting the cap.

And yes, Enduring Rays should just be reworked completely as most of the time it just spreads your damage out over a longer duration without actually increasing the damage. If anything it should do the opposite, ie, make your DoTs and channels tick faster, not longer.

Or it should not affect the "Duration" but rather the "Number of Ticks" specifically. However I think the skills would have to be reworked also because of the way ZoS has set them up to tick as a function of damage/time, rather than damage/tick.