My Take on Templars

Swampfox

Joy_Division wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Healing is a bit over the top - and certain heals more than others. None more than BoL. You dont need to spec into healing very much for BoL to be effective because of how many BoL you can throw out per second as compared to the damage of someone purely built into damage. This is the byproduct of the changes in nerfing damage and healing by 50%. Yes people dont get instantly killed, and I agree with that and appreciate it. But I dont agree with 1 templar keeping a guy alive whos laying on the ground not CC breaking because 'hes a healer'. Once you have 2-3 templars forget about it, youre simply waiting for them to slack and not heal.

Healing should be supplemental to survival, in the same way blocking, dodging, buffing and other factors should be. When someone can just lay helplessly on the ground or even someone is sitting there AFK being kept alive while a DPS rips everything he has into him - theres a problem with healing. Its primarily BoL spam and its rate of fire. When you have someone actually spec'd into healing with a good survival build, you have the result of the healing templar I play with... able to survive against 5-10 players beating on him for at least 2minutes with heal spam. Its a joke on both ends.

Hi FENGRUSH:

You think healing is "over the top" from your perspective because you are a stamina sorc who specializes in damage. You think I heal too much with BoL? Too bad. L2P. Every decent stamina build in the game - and I'm assuming yours since you are a decent player can out DPS the big Breath of Life heal globly cooldown per global cooldown if you animation cancel. You only play a sorcerer who gets frustrated because you cant kill a healer fast enough (Gee, sorry for using my only survival tool...maybe you should stop using your survival tool like dodging and streaking if it bothers you so much). You have no idea what's it's like to play a healer or a templar otherwise you wouldn't be asking ZoS to nerf you competitors survival tools.

If you don't like healers so much, why don;t you try not maximizing your weapon damage and actually use the tools in the game to prevent it: you are a staimna build with easy access to reverberating bash and major defile and you choose not to use it. That's on you...not because heals are "out of control." If you reverberating bash a tempalr healer, they have to spend 2 global cooldowns just to get that debuff off (a CC break and a cleanse), in the meantime you could lay in 2 animation canceled heavy attacks, and two DPS skills of your choice which should be be enough to finish off the pesky templar.

If you trying to kill some guy who has 2-3 templars as in the scenario you described above, sorry that's a L2P issue on your part. Mot DPS just want to stack weapon damage and spam the highest damage skills and expect that to overcome any tanking or healing that other players do and when it doesn't work come to the forums and say that tanking and healing are over the top (and usually think dodge roll, on the other hand, was over-nerfed).

I die every night in Cyrodiil as do the players I heal. Quite frankly, it isn't that difficult.

Joy sums it up pretty well i thought

Fengrush has some good skills with that Stam Sorc of his but what i cannot understand is why he wouldn't come prepared into fighting for most of us are against overwhelming odds

I would of thought the obvious answer is bring a few mates that are Templars

Then i look forward to watching him protecting his Healers as that is who they will target first

Just like he does (apart from Nightblades who have the audacity to use stealth)

dodgehopper_ESO

Swampfox wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Healing is a bit over the top - and certain heals more than others. None more than BoL. You dont need to spec into healing very much for BoL to be effective because of how many BoL you can throw out per second as compared to the damage of someone purely built into damage. This is the byproduct of the changes in nerfing damage and healing by 50%. Yes people dont get instantly killed, and I agree with that and appreciate it. But I dont agree with 1 templar keeping a guy alive whos laying on the ground not CC breaking because 'hes a healer'. Once you have 2-3 templars forget about it, youre simply waiting for them to slack and not heal.

Healing should be supplemental to survival, in the same way blocking, dodging, buffing and other factors should be. When someone can just lay helplessly on the ground or even someone is sitting there AFK being kept alive while a DPS rips everything he has into him - theres a problem with healing. Its primarily BoL spam and its rate of fire. When you have someone actually spec'd into healing with a good survival build, you have the result of the healing templar I play with... able to survive against 5-10 players beating on him for at least 2minutes with heal spam. Its a joke on both ends.

Hi FENGRUSH:

You think healing is "over the top" from your perspective because you are a stamina sorc who specializes in damage. You think I heal too much with BoL? Too bad. L2P. Every decent stamina build in the game - and I'm assuming yours since you are a decent player can out DPS the big Breath of Life heal globly cooldown per global cooldown if you animation cancel. You only play a sorcerer who gets frustrated because you cant kill a healer fast enough (Gee, sorry for using my only survival tool...maybe you should stop using your survival tool like dodging and streaking if it bothers you so much). You have no idea what's it's like to play a healer or a templar otherwise you wouldn't be asking ZoS to nerf you competitors survival tools.

If you don't like healers so much, why don;t you try not maximizing your weapon damage and actually use the tools in the game to prevent it: you are a staimna build with easy access to reverberating bash and major defile and you choose not to use it. That's on you...not because heals are "out of control." If you reverberating bash a tempalr healer, they have to spend 2 global cooldowns just to get that debuff off (a CC break and a cleanse), in the meantime you could lay in 2 animation canceled heavy attacks, and two DPS skills of your choice which should be be enough to finish off the pesky templar.

If you trying to kill some guy who has 2-3 templars as in the scenario you described above, sorry that's a L2P issue on your part. Mot DPS just want to stack weapon damage and spam the highest damage skills and expect that to overcome any tanking or healing that other players do and when it doesn't work come to the forums and say that tanking and healing are over the top (and usually think dodge roll, on the other hand, was over-nerfed).

I die every night in Cyrodiil as do the players I heal. Quite frankly, it isn't that difficult.

Joy sums it up pretty well i thought

Fengrush has some good skills with that Stam Sorc of his but what i cannot understand is why he wouldn't come prepared into fighting for most of us are against overwhelming odds

I would of thought the obvious answer is bring a few mates that are Templars

Then i look forward to watching him protecting his Healers as that is who they will target first

Just like he does (apart from Nightblades who have the audacity to use stealth)

I think there is a good reason why 3 out of every 4 people I played with at the start of the game who were gung *** templar players quit playing their templar to play something else. The only true role for which they have ever been top performing has been in the healing department, and I'm not entirely convinced they are the best at this anymore. There is nothing truly unique about the Templar apart from one skill: Breath of Life. In many ways Efficient Purge is better than Cleansing Ritual because you can knock off malign effects on you and your 50 closest friends. Healing magnitudes can be better on other classes like Dragon Knight, who by the way offer a so-so damage shield at the same time: Healing isn't always about direct healing.

I could list quite a few names of people who still 'play' Templar but have for the most part moved on (or quit the game) because they do not believe ZoS will fix their class within any reasonable time. These people are not bad players, many of them are actually very good, they just don't want to run against the wind. This is probably why Fengrush doesn't have Templars on his team: No one wants to play them in pvp, apart from a few healing die-hards. I would also argue Nightblades and DK's can do some pretty good team healing, and many healers have migrated away from Templar because they find the excessive bugginess of the class not worth dealing with just so you can have breath of life and cleansing ritual. I have quite a few friends who switched to Nightblade healer because honestly they find it a lot more fun (and agressive) than the Templar variety. Being a nightblade allowed them to pick their battles, escape where needed, and actually do damage while healing.

Healing is not a glorious position in pvp. No one is impressed with the healer (even if they should be). That might just be a cultural problem but it is true. I've played anywhere from huge teams (of 100 people) to duo groups and generally speaking everyone likes to heap their *** on Healers, but often fail to grant any glory to them. Its not a glorious job, and frankly healers are treated like second-class pvp'ers. A few people realize their value, but I do think its worth mentioning with regard to templars and healers in general. Is it then no wonder that the Templar class, which has always been slanted toward healer, and has been increasingly becoming only useful as a healer, is declining in play? People want to like this class, but the truth of the matter is most players come to the realization it doesn't deliver on the promise. Templars are ponderously slow, frustratingly glitchy, lack synergy within the skill lines, and also lack in build diversity. None of these things are good, all of them have been known for a very long time, and every single one of these things together make the experience less than ideal.

I personally think part of the solution should be to make sure every class has: a tanking line, healing line, and dps line. If not a tanking skill line, at least a toolset for each of those 3 purposes. Currently, Sorcerer is the only class that really doesn't have a healing line (NB has siphoning, DK has Earthen Heart).

Cinbri

I think zos could improve Templar solo potential not just by increasing damage, but giving morphs either work for templar only (solo) or others (group) and give some stamina restore ability/passive(at least 1, see below). ZOS already implemented it in some skills, they just need a further improvement of this class mechanic.
Like we have :
Rushed Ceremony morphs:
1.Breath of Life - perfect for group play.
2. Honor the Dead - for solo play, despite it is useless now. As i said it should restore stamina instead of magicka.
Solar Flare morphs:
1. Dark Flare - supporting aoe healing debuff with revealing invisible targets.
2. Solar Barrage - currently useless frontline dd aoe. It should be changed to templar version of proximity detonation with smaller addition damage in radius. Templar dont need 2 aoe skills, especially when Spear Shards are much much more supreme to barrage.
Restoring Aura morphs:
1. Repentance - must have skill for group play, mostly useless for solo run.
2. Radiant Aura - absolutelly useless in any style for now skill. It must be changed for solo usability same as sorcs Dark Deal - restore hp and stamina or only stminato caster only in cost of magick/hp, so solo templars or stamplars won't be so lack of resource managment.
Rite of Passage ultimate:
1. Remembrance - keep with current aoe group healing.
2. Practiced Incantation - make it work like heavy hot only for templar but allow him to move. At least one usefull sustain ultimate for solo templar.
Rune Focus morphs:
1. Channeled Focus - restoring magicka, i.e. only passive resource managment skill we have.
2. Restoring Focus - current Minor Vitality with 8% heal buff only inside rune is absolutely weak, however Major Vitalty with 30% buff will be no brainer too OP. Change it either to portable Minor Mending or make it work same as other morph, but instead of magicka - restore stamina.
Radial Sweep ultimate still need much improvement. Increase cost, radius, duration, fix bugs:
1.Empowering Sweep - for defensive play.
2. Crescent Sweep - offensive morph, but even weaker than another morph. For offensive play it should be changed to deal additional damage to all round targets based on number of targets got hit, again some templar version of proximity detonation, i.e. some burst aoe ultimate.

---

Any of those changes will help templar's sustain and will add so much needed diversity to this class. People won't be left with no brain decisisons but will be forced to choose - group play abilities or solo working abilities that Templar is lack of. And this is easy to make - just a little changes to morphs, not to base skills. Any time templars will have option to respec morphs and try either more solo skills or more group skills or even mix of group/solo skills.

Imdrefan

Cinbri wrote: »

I think zos could improve Templar solo potential not just by increasing damage, but giving morphs either work for templar only (solo) or others (group) and give some stamina restore ability/passive(at least 1, see below). ZOS already implemented it in some skills, they just need a further improvement of this class mechanic.
Like we have :
Rushed Ceremony morphs:
1.Breath of Life - perfect for group play.
2. Honor the Dead - for solo play, despite it is useless now. As i said it should restore stamina instead of magicka.
Solar Flare morphs:
1. Dark Flare - supporting aoe healing debuff with revealing invisible targets.
2. Solar Barrage - currently useless frontline dd aoe. It should be changed to templar version of proximity detonation with smaller addition damage in radius. Templar dont need 2 aoe skills, especially when Spear Shards are much much more supreme to barrage.
Restoring Aura morphs:
1. Repentance - must have skill for group play, mostly useless for solo run.
2. Radiant Aura - absolutelly useless in any style for now skill. It must be changed for solo usability same as sorcs Dark Deal - restore hp and stamina or only stminato caster only in cost of magick/hp, so solo templars or stamplars won't be so lack of resource managment.
Rite of Passage ultimate:
1. Remembrance - keep with current aoe group healing.
2. Practiced Incantation - make it work like heavy hot only for templar but allow him to move. At least one usefull sustain ultimate for solo templar.
Rune Focus morphs:
1. Channeled Focus - restoring magicka, i.e. only passive resource managment skill we have.
2. Restoring Focus - current Minor Vitality with 8% heal buff only inside rune is absolutely weak, however Major Vitalty with 30% buff will be no brainer too OP. Change it either to portable Minor Mending or make it work same as other morph, but instead of magicka - restore stamina.
Radial Sweep ultimate still need much improvement. Increase cost, radius, duration, fix bugs:
1.Empowering Sweep - for defensive play.
2. Crescent Sweep - offensive morph, but even weaker than another morph. For offensive play it should be changed to deal additional damage to all round targets based on number of targets got hit, again some templar version of proximity detonation, i.e. some burst aoe ultimate.

---

Any of those changes will help templar's sustain and will add so much needed diversity to this class. People won't be left with no brain decisisons but will be forced to choose - group play abilities or solo working abilities that Templar is lack of. And this is easy to make - just a little changes to morphs, not to base skills. Any time templars will have option to respec morphs and try either more solo skills or more group skills or even mix of group/solo skills.

I like these ideas, but just a heads up on the bolded part about dark flare, if you begin to cast dark flare while you can see a night blade and he cloaks during the travel time you will pull him out of stealth. And when dark flare makes contact it hits with an aoe that does pull night blades out of stealth.

With the insane number of nigh blades running around, I always have dark flare slotted to counter them.

puffy99

Hopefully the developers weren't listening to elitist players like Fengrush or whatever his name is that just likes hearing himself talk and for some god damn reason people putting him on a pod cast. Crying about how BoL ruins his kill fest for about 15 more seconds than it should, what a dufus. Drink more dude..

That said the developers clearly have a hate fest for Templars and you would think with a pretty strong backlash already documented for over a year on broken skills, nerfed skills and suspect design they would of come out strong in the other direction like they seem to have moved with DK. But no!, stay in your rune and heal for 1 less guy- your welcome.

This is a major bunch of ***. Hopefully we have some new gaming options in 2016 or they just delete the Templar option.

Takllin

puffy99 wrote: »

Hopefully the developers weren't listening to elitist players like Fengrush or whatever his name is that just likes hearing himself talk and for some god damn reason people putting him on a pod cast. Crying about how BoL ruins his kill fest for about 15 more seconds than it should, what a dufus. Drink more dude..

That said the developers clearly have a hate fest for Templars and you would think with a pretty strong backlash already documented for over a year on broken skills, nerfed skills and suspect design they would of come out strong in the other direction like they seem to have moved with DK. But no!, stay in your rune and heal for 1 less guy- your welcome.

This is a major bunch of ***. Hopefully we have some new gaming options in 2016 or they just delete the Templar option.

If your not able to see past a small nerf to BoL and the vast improvements everywhere else...

Zheg

Takllin wrote: »

puffy99 wrote: »

Hopefully the developers weren't listening to elitist players like Fengrush or whatever his name is that just likes hearing himself talk and for some god damn reason people putting him on a pod cast. Crying about how BoL ruins his kill fest for about 15 more seconds than it should, what a dufus. Drink more dude..

That said the developers clearly have a hate fest for Templars and you would think with a pretty strong backlash already documented for over a year on broken skills, nerfed skills and suspect design they would of come out strong in the other direction like they seem to have moved with DK. But no!, stay in your rune and heal for 1 less guy- your welcome.

This is a major bunch of ***. Hopefully we have some new gaming options in 2016 or they just delete the Templar option.

If your not able to see past a small nerf to BoL and the vast improvements everywhere else...

I'd hardly call them 'vast' improvements. We got a few nice things, and while I view the BoL nerf as a plug to go resto staff instead for main healing (particularly with the major mending change), most of the skills that were derptacular remain derptacular even though there has been YEARS of feedback on them. Did the 1m increase in radial sweeps range make the skill so amazeballs that you're now going to run it in competitive pvp? Eh?

People are to some extent getting too emotional on BoL, but a lot of the anger (I think) is just because templars needed so many more 'fixes' to skills. Some of them were so useless/broken I wouldn't even say they needed buffs, they needed fixes.

puffy99

Takllin wrote: »

puffy99 wrote: »

Hopefully the developers weren't listening to elitist players like Fengrush or whatever his name is that just likes hearing himself talk and for some god damn reason people putting him on a pod cast. Crying about how BoL ruins his kill fest for about 15 more seconds than it should, what a dufus. Drink more dude..

That said the developers clearly have a hate fest for Templars and you would think with a pretty strong backlash already documented for over a year on broken skills, nerfed skills and suspect design they would of come out strong in the other direction like they seem to have moved with DK. But no!, stay in your rune and heal for 1 less guy- your welcome.

This is a major bunch of ***. Hopefully we have some new gaming options in 2016 or they just delete the Templar option.

If your not able to see past a small nerf to BoL and the vast improvements everywhere else...

Vast improvements... yeah right bring out your Templar and ACTUALLY play it.. then come back and post..

Takllin

puffy99 wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

puffy99 wrote: »

Hopefully the developers weren't listening to elitist players like Fengrush or whatever his name is that just likes hearing himself talk and for some god damn reason people putting him on a pod cast. Crying about how BoL ruins his kill fest for about 15 more seconds than it should, what a dufus. Drink more dude..

That said the developers clearly have a hate fest for Templars and you would think with a pretty strong backlash already documented for over a year on broken skills, nerfed skills and suspect design they would of come out strong in the other direction like they seem to have moved with DK. But no!, stay in your rune and heal for 1 less guy- your welcome.

This is a major bunch of ***. Hopefully we have some new gaming options in 2016 or they just delete the Templar option.

If your not able to see past a small nerf to BoL and the vast improvements everywhere else...

Vast improvements... yeah right bring out your Templar and ACTUALLY play it.. then come back and post..

If I could transfer it back to AD I would in a heartbeat.

Zheg wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

puffy99 wrote: »

Hopefully the developers weren't listening to elitist players like Fengrush or whatever his name is that just likes hearing himself talk and for some god damn reason people putting him on a pod cast. Crying about how BoL ruins his kill fest for about 15 more seconds than it should, what a dufus. Drink more dude..

That said the developers clearly have a hate fest for Templars and you would think with a pretty strong backlash already documented for over a year on broken skills, nerfed skills and suspect design they would of come out strong in the other direction like they seem to have moved with DK. But no!, stay in your rune and heal for 1 less guy- your welcome.

This is a major bunch of ***. Hopefully we have some new gaming options in 2016 or they just delete the Templar option.

If your not able to see past a small nerf to BoL and the vast improvements everywhere else...

I'd hardly call them 'vast' improvements. We got a few nice things, and while I view the BoL nerf as a plug to go resto staff instead for main healing (particularly with the major mending change), most of the skills that were derptacular remain derptacular even though there has been YEARS of feedback on them. Did the 1m increase in radial sweeps range make the skill so amazeballs that you're now going to run it in competitive pvp? Eh?

People are to some extent getting too emotional on BoL, but a lot of the anger (I think) is just because templars needed so many more 'fixes' to skills. Some of them were so useless/broken I wouldn't even say they needed buffs, they needed fixes.

LOL at your comment about Radiant Sweeps...That's disingenuous and you know it.

What about the increase damage to Dark Flare? Buff to damage and duration of Nova, increase duration of Vampire's Bane is nice. Radiant no longer dodgeable. Sweeps no longer giving a knockback, Javelin 28 m range...hopefully charge is finally fixed. Small Eclipse buff.

Does Templar still have skills that need improvement? Yup.

Zheg

Takllin wrote: »

puffy99 wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

puffy99 wrote: »

Hopefully the developers weren't listening to elitist players like Fengrush or whatever his name is that just likes hearing himself talk and for some god damn reason people putting him on a pod cast. Crying about how BoL ruins his kill fest for about 15 more seconds than it should, what a dufus. Drink more dude..

That said the developers clearly have a hate fest for Templars and you would think with a pretty strong backlash already documented for over a year on broken skills, nerfed skills and suspect design they would of come out strong in the other direction like they seem to have moved with DK. But no!, stay in your rune and heal for 1 less guy- your welcome.

This is a major bunch of ***. Hopefully we have some new gaming options in 2016 or they just delete the Templar option.

If your not able to see past a small nerf to BoL and the vast improvements everywhere else...

Vast improvements... yeah right bring out your Templar and ACTUALLY play it.. then come back and post..

If I could transfer it back to AD I would in a heartbeat.

Zheg wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

puffy99 wrote: »

Hopefully the developers weren't listening to elitist players like Fengrush or whatever his name is that just likes hearing himself talk and for some god damn reason people putting him on a pod cast. Crying about how BoL ruins his kill fest for about 15 more seconds than it should, what a dufus. Drink more dude..

That said the developers clearly have a hate fest for Templars and you would think with a pretty strong backlash already documented for over a year on broken skills, nerfed skills and suspect design they would of come out strong in the other direction like they seem to have moved with DK. But no!, stay in your rune and heal for 1 less guy- your welcome.

This is a major bunch of ***. Hopefully we have some new gaming options in 2016 or they just delete the Templar option.

If your not able to see past a small nerf to BoL and the vast improvements everywhere else...

I'd hardly call them 'vast' improvements. We got a few nice things, and while I view the BoL nerf as a plug to go resto staff instead for main healing (particularly with the major mending change), most of the skills that were derptacular remain derptacular even though there has been YEARS of feedback on them. Did the 1m increase in radial sweeps range make the skill so amazeballs that you're now going to run it in competitive pvp? Eh?

People are to some extent getting too emotional on BoL, but a lot of the anger (I think) is just because templars needed so many more 'fixes' to skills. Some of them were so useless/broken I wouldn't even say they needed buffs, they needed fixes.

LOL at your comment about Radiant Sweeps...That's disingenuous and you know it.

What about the increase damage to Dark Flare? Buff to damage and duration of Nova, increase duration of Vampire's Bane is nice. Radiant no longer dodgeable. Sweeps no longer giving a knockback, Javelin 28 m range...hopefully charge is finally fixed. Small Eclipse buff.

Does Templar still have skills that need improvement? Yup.

Again, yes, we got a few nice things, the change to jabs/sweep and dark flare being some of them. How is my comment about radial sweep disingenuous? It's been one of the most under-performing ultimates since launch, and feedback has been clear and consistent for years now. Templars still don't have a good ultimate to use when solo (sorcs have overload and atro, nb have siphon and soul assault, dk have leap and corrosive). The buff to nova is nice for groups, but only if it's crushed.

Javelin got a little extra range but the problem was more that it had a high cost, was mediocre damage, and it didn't have a lasting CC to counter the first two issues. With the increased range aurora will do more damage because of how the morph works, but until testing proves me otherwise I still think the cost to dmg ratio is off.

Even with the increased duration to vamp's bane, you'll do more damage using reflective in non 1v1 scenarios.

So, again, the main skills that had derp issues still have them. We got buffs, but we also got nerfs, particularly to our defensive capabilities in the purify projectile fix and the focus 'stand inside me or gtfo theme'.

I very, very much expected a fix to shield, and there was nothing. I expected a cleanup in the clunky animation for spears. I expected radial sweep to not be a stupid pulse in a 6m radius over 6 seconds. I expected Javelin to get more love than it got. I expected ritual to not be so clunky.

Do I think the reaction is slightly blown out of proportion to the templar patch notes? Yes. Do I think wrobel dropped the ball again on yet another wasted opportunity to fix the clunky animations, useless skills, and channel/cast time heavy theme of templar? Yes.

Takllin

Zheg wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

puffy99 wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

puffy99 wrote: »

Hopefully the developers weren't listening to elitist players like Fengrush or whatever his name is that just likes hearing himself talk and for some god damn reason people putting him on a pod cast. Crying about how BoL ruins his kill fest for about 15 more seconds than it should, what a dufus. Drink more dude..

That said the developers clearly have a hate fest for Templars and you would think with a pretty strong backlash already documented for over a year on broken skills, nerfed skills and suspect design they would of come out strong in the other direction like they seem to have moved with DK. But no!, stay in your rune and heal for 1 less guy- your welcome.

This is a major bunch of ***. Hopefully we have some new gaming options in 2016 or they just delete the Templar option.

If your not able to see past a small nerf to BoL and the vast improvements everywhere else...

Vast improvements... yeah right bring out your Templar and ACTUALLY play it.. then come back and post..

If I could transfer it back to AD I would in a heartbeat.

Zheg wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

puffy99 wrote: »

Hopefully the developers weren't listening to elitist players like Fengrush or whatever his name is that just likes hearing himself talk and for some god damn reason people putting him on a pod cast. Crying about how BoL ruins his kill fest for about 15 more seconds than it should, what a dufus. Drink more dude..

That said the developers clearly have a hate fest for Templars and you would think with a pretty strong backlash already documented for over a year on broken skills, nerfed skills and suspect design they would of come out strong in the other direction like they seem to have moved with DK. But no!, stay in your rune and heal for 1 less guy- your welcome.

This is a major bunch of ***. Hopefully we have some new gaming options in 2016 or they just delete the Templar option.

If your not able to see past a small nerf to BoL and the vast improvements everywhere else...

I'd hardly call them 'vast' improvements. We got a few nice things, and while I view the BoL nerf as a plug to go resto staff instead for main healing (particularly with the major mending change), most of the skills that were derptacular remain derptacular even though there has been YEARS of feedback on them. Did the 1m increase in radial sweeps range make the skill so amazeballs that you're now going to run it in competitive pvp? Eh?

People are to some extent getting too emotional on BoL, but a lot of the anger (I think) is just because templars needed so many more 'fixes' to skills. Some of them were so useless/broken I wouldn't even say they needed buffs, they needed fixes.

LOL at your comment about Radiant Sweeps...That's disingenuous and you know it.

What about the increase damage to Dark Flare? Buff to damage and duration of Nova, increase duration of Vampire's Bane is nice. Radiant no longer dodgeable. Sweeps no longer giving a knockback, Javelin 28 m range...hopefully charge is finally fixed. Small Eclipse buff.

Does Templar still have skills that need improvement? Yup.

Again, yes, we got a few nice things, the change to jabs/sweep and dark flare being some of them. How is my comment about radial sweep disingenuous? It's been one of the most under-performing ultimates since launch, and feedback has been clear and consistent for years now. Templars still don't have a good ultimate to use when solo (sorcs have overload and atro, nb have siphon and soul assault, dk have leap and corrosive). The buff to nova is nice for groups, but only if it's crushed.

Javelin got a little extra range but the problem was more that it had a high cost, was mediocre damage, and it didn't have a lasting CC to counter the first two issues. With the increased range aurora will do more damage because of how the morph works, but until testing proves me otherwise I still think the cost to dmg ratio is off.

Even with the increased duration to vamp's bane, you'll do more damage using reflective in non 1v1 scenarios.

So, again, the main skills that had derp issues still have them. We got buffs, but we also got nerfs, particularly to our defensive capabilities in the purify projectile fix and the focus 'stand inside me or gtfo theme'.

I very, very much expected a fix to shield, and there was nothing. I expected a cleanup in the clunky animation for spears. I expected radial sweep to not be a stupid pulse in a 6m radius over 6 seconds. I expected Javelin to get more love than it got. I expected ritual to not be so clunky.

Do I think the reaction is slightly blown out of proportion to the templar patch notes? Yes. Do I think wrobel dropped the ball again on yet another wasted opportunity to fix the clunky animations, useless skills, and channel/cast time heavy theme of templar? Yes.

Zheg, c'mon, I don't think I need to really explain how that question was disingenuous...it's fairly obvious.

Channeled Focus was never supposed to give you Magicka outside of the Circle, and Purify wasn't supposed to cleanse projectiles. Though with that same logic Radiant was never supposed to be dodge able either.

Focus also got a nice damage mitigation buff, though that's for the other morph. I would have liked more buffs to Templar as well, but they have some really nice stuff right now that people should be excited about.

Minno

Takllin wrote: »

puffy99 wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

puffy99 wrote: »

Hopefully the developers weren't listening to elitist players like Fengrush or whatever his name is that just likes hearing himself talk and for some god damn reason people putting him on a pod cast. Crying about how BoL ruins his kill fest for about 15 more seconds than it should, what a dufus. Drink more dude..

That said the developers clearly have a hate fest for Templars and you would think with a pretty strong backlash already documented for over a year on broken skills, nerfed skills and suspect design they would of come out strong in the other direction like they seem to have moved with DK. But no!, stay in your rune and heal for 1 less guy- your welcome.

This is a major bunch of ***. Hopefully we have some new gaming options in 2016 or they just delete the Templar option.

If your not able to see past a small nerf to BoL and the vast improvements everywhere else...

Vast improvements... yeah right bring out your Templar and ACTUALLY play it.. then come back and post..

If I could transfer it back to AD I would in a heartbeat.

Zheg wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

puffy99 wrote: »

Hopefully the developers weren't listening to elitist players like Fengrush or whatever his name is that just likes hearing himself talk and for some god damn reason people putting him on a pod cast. Crying about how BoL ruins his kill fest for about 15 more seconds than it should, what a dufus. Drink more dude..

That said the developers clearly have a hate fest for Templars and you would think with a pretty strong backlash already documented for over a year on broken skills, nerfed skills and suspect design they would of come out strong in the other direction like they seem to have moved with DK. But no!, stay in your rune and heal for 1 less guy- your welcome.

This is a major bunch of ***. Hopefully we have some new gaming options in 2016 or they just delete the Templar option.

If your not able to see past a small nerf to BoL and the vast improvements everywhere else...

I'd hardly call them 'vast' improvements. We got a few nice things, and while I view the BoL nerf as a plug to go resto staff instead for main healing (particularly with the major mending change), most of the skills that were derptacular remain derptacular even though there has been YEARS of feedback on them. Did the 1m increase in radial sweeps range make the skill so amazeballs that you're now going to run it in competitive pvp? Eh?

People are to some extent getting too emotional on BoL, but a lot of the anger (I think) is just because templars needed so many more 'fixes' to skills. Some of them were so useless/broken I wouldn't even say they needed buffs, they needed fixes.

LOL at your comment about Radiant Sweeps...That's disingenuous and you know it.

What about the increase damage to Dark Flare? Buff to damage and duration of Nova, increase duration of Vampire's Bane is nice. Radiant no longer dodgeable. Sweeps no longer giving a knockback, Javelin 28 m range...hopefully charge is finally fixed. Small Eclipse buff.

Does Templar still have skills that need improvement? Yup.

Correct in the bold.

We received (2) nerfs, BOL and purifying ritual is now working as intended (it was an exploit that people let happen because templars didn't have much in terms of DPS.)

We gained a change to jabs, vamps bane duration increase, a morph of eclipse that's more like daedric curse and spamable, 28m range jav, and, best buff of all, CP magicka/elemental under one star!!!

They opened the floodgates for templars with regards to having additional options to address DPS. So the class returns to embrace the utilitarianism of the original intent for this class.

BOL was a major nerf, that sucks. But here's my take on the healing:

1) BOL no longer the spam heal. Based on the healing passive that adds health to severity of players wounds, this skill is now the "healing execute" its suppose to be. This make templars unique in that other classes have to stack bastion to use healing ward to receive similar effects. Not as bad a nerf as we think.

2) original boost to healing via using purifying ritual no longer viable for allies. But it gives us major mending which improves our overall heals. And lasts 8 seconds after we leave the circles. Obviously small buff to allow mobility.

3). Healing ritual will now be the main healing spam skill. Have to test, but it will compete with healing springs. Unique? Probably less so. But it is a " pulse heal" which aligns with how a Templar initiates a skill (aesthetic wise.)

4) restoring rune maybe our next tank skill. Minor protection. But requires us to standstill, so its obviously a pve tank upgrade.

5) Radiant aura now grants major intellect at activation. That's 30% more magicka recovery.

Zheg

Takllin wrote: »

Zheg, c'mon, I don't think I need to really explain how that question was disingenuous...it's fairly obvious.

Channeled Focus was never supposed to give you Magicka outside of the Circle, and Purify wasn't supposed to cleanse projectiles. Though with that same logic Radiant was never supposed to be dodge able either.

Focus also got a nice damage mitigation buff, though that's for the other morph. I would have liked more buffs to Templar as well, but they have some really nice stuff right now that people should be excited about.

I run one of the most tanky templars in pvp right now, and I don't think standing in that tiny focus will work even for my templar. You need to move in pvp, you need to LOS, you need to be in range of your opponent to keep up the pressure. The fact that focus was a templar's only way to get major resist buffs (outside of immovable which is super expensive, particularly for magicka builds, and outside of potions which would be a no-go for any build) and we had to do the hokey pokey dance and 'put your left foot in' every 8 seconds was yet another clunky templar mechanic. I expect most templars will end up losing far more magicka having to constantly recast focus than they'd gain from the literally few seconds they could feasibly stand inside of it to regen magicka back. It's a derpy mechanic, plain and simple. The other morph of focus will work for pve tanking and that's about it.

The purify change may have been to fix a mechanic that ZOS didn't intend for, but nevertheless it was inherent to a good templar's survivability, and when coupled with the focus change, it's a net loss in survivability, particularly in a meta that's going to see stationary positions get wrecked with the higher damage numbers and siege changes coming.

Joy_Division

My initial thoughts are that templars are unquestionably better offensively under the new PTS. How much so remains to be seen, although I think it is easy to overestimate.

• RD undodgable is nice, but that's what it was and should have always been and the damage was still nerfed from the IC patch.
• As much as we prefer the snare to jabs change, it's still a nerf. That knock back stopped wrecking blows. It won't in the next patch. Also, 75 CPs into thaumaturge is not a given any more and not doing that means 10% less damage.
• Dark Flare was always an excellent damage skill, the problem has been putting it on target and that's something that has not changed.
• I'll believe toppling works when I see it.
• IIRC, adding to the duration of DoTs does not increase the DPS, rather the magicka efficiency of using them.

Defensively though, templars took a major hit.

• The purify nerf maybe an intended "fix" but it was still a major tool templars relied on to stay alive and yet they were not exactly stalwarts. It's a removal of a key defensive tool with no compensation.
• The BoL thing doesn't really bother me as much as it does others because that secondary heal was about 4K in cyrodiil which was meh at best, but again, it's still a subtraction with zero compensation.
• I don't like their intended change to focus. right now on PTS you still get the magicka recovery when u leave but that is a bug according to the patch notes. ZoS is asking templars to stay in the same spot and gave them a 1% increase to a feeble shield as the means to hold their ground.
• Unstable Core is a nerf no matter how ZoS tries to present it as. Back in July, I could cast multiple time bombs on people that reflected their magical projectiles AND any magicka effect they used on me (even stupid stuff like the weapon enchantment and ultimate like dawnbreaker). Now, if I want the defensive morph, I still am limited to one cast and while I gain physical protection, I am losing spells that aren't projectiles. I'd much prefer the old eclipse.
• If I take the unstable core version of eclipse, I am better offensively, something we already are, but lose the reflect. I understand the bombs are bigger than the old version, but they're not mindblowingly strong. Again, I'd take the old eclipse that gave me bombs and reflect.

My hunch is that while my personal play-style will benefit from this patch as it was offensively oriented, I see this patch as a mixed bag. I have to say I am disappointed stuff like Radiant overlapping with potions, the "balanced warrior" passive which is not balanced bc/ it only grants weapon power, and the whole cast time on healing ritual are still in the game.

FENGRUSH

Must have stopped reading this thread at some point with all the negatvitiy coming out of it.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Swampfox wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Healing is a bit over the top - and certain heals more than others. None more than BoL. You dont need to spec into healing very much for BoL to be effective because of how many BoL you can throw out per second as compared to the damage of someone purely built into damage. This is the byproduct of the changes in nerfing damage and healing by 50%. Yes people dont get instantly killed, and I agree with that and appreciate it. But I dont agree with 1 templar keeping a guy alive whos laying on the ground not CC breaking because 'hes a healer'. Once you have 2-3 templars forget about it, youre simply waiting for them to slack and not heal.

Healing should be supplemental to survival, in the same way blocking, dodging, buffing and other factors should be. When someone can just lay helplessly on the ground or even someone is sitting there AFK being kept alive while a DPS rips everything he has into him - theres a problem with healing. Its primarily BoL spam and its rate of fire. When you have someone actually spec'd into healing with a good survival build, you have the result of the healing templar I play with... able to survive against 5-10 players beating on him for at least 2minutes with heal spam. Its a joke on both ends.

Hi FENGRUSH:

You think healing is "over the top" from your perspective because you are a stamina sorc who specializes in damage. You think I heal too much with BoL? Too bad. L2P. Every decent stamina build in the game - and I'm assuming yours since you are a decent player can out DPS the big Breath of Life heal globly cooldown per global cooldown if you animation cancel. You only play a sorcerer who gets frustrated because you cant kill a healer fast enough (Gee, sorry for using my only survival tool...maybe you should stop using your survival tool like dodging and streaking if it bothers you so much). You have no idea what's it's like to play a healer or a templar otherwise you wouldn't be asking ZoS to nerf you competitors survival tools.

If you don't like healers so much, why don;t you try not maximizing your weapon damage and actually use the tools in the game to prevent it: you are a staimna build with easy access to reverberating bash and major defile and you choose not to use it. That's on you...not because heals are "out of control." If you reverberating bash a tempalr healer, they have to spend 2 global cooldowns just to get that debuff off (a CC break and a cleanse), in the meantime you could lay in 2 animation canceled heavy attacks, and two DPS skills of your choice which should be be enough to finish off the pesky templar.

If you trying to kill some guy who has 2-3 templars as in the scenario you described above, sorry that's a L2P issue on your part. Mot DPS just want to stack weapon damage and spam the highest damage skills and expect that to overcome any tanking or healing that other players do and when it doesn't work come to the forums and say that tanking and healing are over the top (and usually think dodge roll, on the other hand, was over-nerfed).

I die every night in Cyrodiil as do the players I heal. Quite frankly, it isn't that difficult.

Joy sums it up pretty well i thought

Fengrush has some good skills with that Stam Sorc of his but what i cannot understand is why he wouldn't come prepared into fighting for most of us are against overwhelming odds

I would of thought the obvious answer is bring a few mates that are Templars

Then i look forward to watching him protecting his Healers as that is who they will target first

Just like he does (apart from Nightblades who have the audacity to use stealth)

This is probably why Fengrush doesn't have Templars on his team: No one wants to play them in pvp, apart from a few healing die-hards.

Pretty good line from someone who didnt watch me stream grouped with shuyinhail for like 3+months straight in the IC patch every single night? Yea - hes a pure healer. I wont count Essa - who was the 3rd guy in the group, also a templar... or any of the other templars Ive been grouped with in my small scale PvP.

I went back and cut a video off my youtube where I ranted about this kind of stuff. Deals with it better than writing a long post anyway:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HJe5FjBIdo

Looks like they changed BoL instead of addressing issues that impact the game on a grander scale - crazy resources through CP. You guys are looking for a scapegoat and you can blame FENGRUSH if you want - but misrepresenting me is pathetic especially when many of you never engaged in a discussion with me.

You cant control Im saying on my stream. A lot of you make assumptions and just run off on tangents based on 1 thing you heard, even if it was indirectly. Have at it - at the end of the day, Im just expressing my opinion.. I cant help that so many people agree with my point of view. Seems like Im probably right about something.

dodgehopper_ESO

I agree that they did some things that needed doing, but there are a number of areas where they aren't finished. Class synergy, clunkiness, poor mobility, flaccid cc and resource still remains pretty bad on Templar. Breath of life and Cleansing Ritual were literally the saving grace of the class, and in many ways ritual was heavily nerfed when you consider the pvp changes coming down the pike. Templar needs improvement, particularly with respect to its competitors. It is no longer THE healer which I am fine with (actually I prefer this) but they need to deal with other problems with the class. Eclipse for instance should not be a cc at all ever. I would love for once for them to explain the bad thinking behind this. Just compare it to Reflective Scales for goodness sake. Reflective Scales is like the easy-mode version of this skill.

dodgehopper_ESO

Minno wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

puffy99 wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

puffy99 wrote: »

Hopefully the developers weren't listening to elitist players like Fengrush or whatever his name is that just likes hearing himself talk and for some god damn reason people putting him on a pod cast. Crying about how BoL ruins his kill fest for about 15 more seconds than it should, what a dufus. Drink more dude..

That said the developers clearly have a hate fest for Templars and you would think with a pretty strong backlash already documented for over a year on broken skills, nerfed skills and suspect design they would of come out strong in the other direction like they seem to have moved with DK. But no!, stay in your rune and heal for 1 less guy- your welcome.

This is a major bunch of ***. Hopefully we have some new gaming options in 2016 or they just delete the Templar option.

If your not able to see past a small nerf to BoL and the vast improvements everywhere else...

Vast improvements... yeah right bring out your Templar and ACTUALLY play it.. then come back and post..

If I could transfer it back to AD I would in a heartbeat.

Zheg wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

puffy99 wrote: »

Hopefully the developers weren't listening to elitist players like Fengrush or whatever his name is that just likes hearing himself talk and for some god damn reason people putting him on a pod cast. Crying about how BoL ruins his kill fest for about 15 more seconds than it should, what a dufus. Drink more dude..

That said the developers clearly have a hate fest for Templars and you would think with a pretty strong backlash already documented for over a year on broken skills, nerfed skills and suspect design they would of come out strong in the other direction like they seem to have moved with DK. But no!, stay in your rune and heal for 1 less guy- your welcome.

This is a major bunch of ***. Hopefully we have some new gaming options in 2016 or they just delete the Templar option.

If your not able to see past a small nerf to BoL and the vast improvements everywhere else...

I'd hardly call them 'vast' improvements. We got a few nice things, and while I view the BoL nerf as a plug to go resto staff instead for main healing (particularly with the major mending change), most of the skills that were derptacular remain derptacular even though there has been YEARS of feedback on them. Did the 1m increase in radial sweeps range make the skill so amazeballs that you're now going to run it in competitive pvp? Eh?

People are to some extent getting too emotional on BoL, but a lot of the anger (I think) is just because templars needed so many more 'fixes' to skills. Some of them were so useless/broken I wouldn't even say they needed buffs, they needed fixes.

LOL at your comment about Radiant Sweeps...That's disingenuous and you know it.

What about the increase damage to Dark Flare? Buff to damage and duration of Nova, increase duration of Vampire's Bane is nice. Radiant no longer dodgeable. Sweeps no longer giving a knockback, Javelin 28 m range...hopefully charge is finally fixed. Small Eclipse buff.

Does Templar still have skills that need improvement? Yup.

Correct in the bold.

We received (2) nerfs, BOL and purifying ritual is now working as intended (it was an exploit that people let happen because templars didn't have much in terms of DPS.)

We gained a change to jabs, vamps bane duration increase, a morph of eclipse that's more like daedric curse and spamable, 28m range jav, and, best buff of all, CP magicka/elemental under one star!!!

They opened the floodgates for templars with regards to having additional options to address DPS. So the class returns to embrace the utilitarianism of the original intent for this class.

BOL was a major nerf, that sucks. But here's my take on the healing:

1) BOL no longer the spam heal. Based on the healing passive that adds health to severity of players wounds, this skill is now the "healing execute" its suppose to be. This make templars unique in that other classes have to stack bastion to use healing ward to receive similar effects. Not as bad a nerf as we think.

2) original boost to healing via using purifying ritual no longer viable for allies. But it gives us major mending which improves our overall heals. And lasts 8 seconds after we leave the circles. Obviously small buff to allow mobility.

3). Healing ritual will now be the main healing spam skill. Have to test, but it will compete with healing springs. Unique? Probably less so. But it is a " pulse heal" which aligns with how a Templar initiates a skill (aesthetic wise.)

4) restoring rune maybe our next tank skill. Minor protection. But requires us to standstill, so its obviously a pve tank upgrade.

5) Radiant aura now grants major intellect at activation. That's 30% more magicka recovery.

I have always hated the Rune from a stylistic standpoint. It is one of the few things about the Templar that has always chafed with me. Why should we have an OBVIOUSLY INFERIOR form of self mitigation? I realize Rune recast is not overly expensive to make up for the fact, but the brief duration means major opportunity cost of time. Blazing Shield is the same way. The way in which everything is a slow ponderous cast/channel as well messes with the timing of all of these things. It makes Templar in pvp very obvious and at a disadvantage to other classes with far more responsive abilities that often serve double duty.

Zheg

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Must have stopped reading this thread at some point with all the negatvitiy coming out of it.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Swampfox wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Healing is a bit over the top - and certain heals more than others. None more than BoL. You dont need to spec into healing very much for BoL to be effective because of how many BoL you can throw out per second as compared to the damage of someone purely built into damage. This is the byproduct of the changes in nerfing damage and healing by 50%. Yes people dont get instantly killed, and I agree with that and appreciate it. But I dont agree with 1 templar keeping a guy alive whos laying on the ground not CC breaking because 'hes a healer'. Once you have 2-3 templars forget about it, youre simply waiting for them to slack and not heal.

Healing should be supplemental to survival, in the same way blocking, dodging, buffing and other factors should be. When someone can just lay helplessly on the ground or even someone is sitting there AFK being kept alive while a DPS rips everything he has into him - theres a problem with healing. Its primarily BoL spam and its rate of fire. When you have someone actually spec'd into healing with a good survival build, you have the result of the healing templar I play with... able to survive against 5-10 players beating on him for at least 2minutes with heal spam. Its a joke on both ends.

Hi FENGRUSH:

You think healing is "over the top" from your perspective because you are a stamina sorc who specializes in damage. You think I heal too much with BoL? Too bad. L2P. Every decent stamina build in the game - and I'm assuming yours since you are a decent player can out DPS the big Breath of Life heal globly cooldown per global cooldown if you animation cancel. You only play a sorcerer who gets frustrated because you cant kill a healer fast enough (Gee, sorry for using my only survival tool...maybe you should stop using your survival tool like dodging and streaking if it bothers you so much). You have no idea what's it's like to play a healer or a templar otherwise you wouldn't be asking ZoS to nerf you competitors survival tools.

If you don't like healers so much, why don;t you try not maximizing your weapon damage and actually use the tools in the game to prevent it: you are a staimna build with easy access to reverberating bash and major defile and you choose not to use it. That's on you...not because heals are "out of control." If you reverberating bash a tempalr healer, they have to spend 2 global cooldowns just to get that debuff off (a CC break and a cleanse), in the meantime you could lay in 2 animation canceled heavy attacks, and two DPS skills of your choice which should be be enough to finish off the pesky templar.

If you trying to kill some guy who has 2-3 templars as in the scenario you described above, sorry that's a L2P issue on your part. Mot DPS just want to stack weapon damage and spam the highest damage skills and expect that to overcome any tanking or healing that other players do and when it doesn't work come to the forums and say that tanking and healing are over the top (and usually think dodge roll, on the other hand, was over-nerfed).

I die every night in Cyrodiil as do the players I heal. Quite frankly, it isn't that difficult.

Joy sums it up pretty well i thought

Fengrush has some good skills with that Stam Sorc of his but what i cannot understand is why he wouldn't come prepared into fighting for most of us are against overwhelming odds

I would of thought the obvious answer is bring a few mates that are Templars

Then i look forward to watching him protecting his Healers as that is who they will target first

Just like he does (apart from Nightblades who have the audacity to use stealth)

This is probably why Fengrush doesn't have Templars on his team: No one wants to play them in pvp, apart from a few healing die-hards.

Pretty good line from someone who didnt watch me stream grouped with shuyinhail for like 3+months straight in the IC patch every single night? Yea - hes a pure healer. I wont count Essa - who was the 3rd guy in the group, also a templar... or any of the other templars Ive been grouped with in my small scale PvP.

I went back and cut a video off my youtube where I ranted about this kind of stuff. Deals with it better than writing a long post anyway:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HJe5FjBIdo

Looks like they changed BoL instead of addressing issues that impact the game on a grander scale - crazy resources through CP. You guys are looking for a scapegoat and you can blame FENGRUSH if you want - but misrepresenting me is pathetic especially when many of you never engaged in a discussion with me.

You cant control Im saying on my stream. A lot of you make assumptions and just run off on tangents based on 1 thing you heard, even if it was indirectly. Have at it - at the end of the day, Im just expressing my opinion.. I cant help that so many people agree with my point of view. Seems like Im probably right about something.

I feel like I've seen you trying to do damage control in the many many templar threads since yesterday. I don't watch streams because I'd rather be playing the game, which includes yours. I don't base your calls for BoL nerfs from your streams, I base them on the multiple posts I've seen from you on the subject. If you weren't such a prolific poster I'd go through them and quote them all here for you.

Am I as upset about the BoL nerf as others? No, but that's because I like that rapid regen and devouring bats will be that much stronger for my templar when I'm on my tanky build. Do I think you should get all the blame for the nerf? Absolutely not. Do I think you had some level of influence on Wrobel making that decision? Sure do.

As an aside, I'd be careful assuming that fanboy-ism = people agreeing with you because you're right. You (and other streamers) make valid and insightful points sometimes, but you also make absurd ones as well. You're entitled to them, as they are your opinions, but you're also entitled to the extra negative attention you get since you voluntarily put yourself on that pedestal. It goes both ways dude.

dodgehopper_ESO

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Must have stopped reading this thread at some point with all the negatvitiy coming out of it.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Swampfox wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Healing is a bit over the top - and certain heals more than others. None more than BoL. You dont need to spec into healing very much for BoL to be effective because of how many BoL you can throw out per second as compared to the damage of someone purely built into damage. This is the byproduct of the changes in nerfing damage and healing by 50%. Yes people dont get instantly killed, and I agree with that and appreciate it. But I dont agree with 1 templar keeping a guy alive whos laying on the ground not CC breaking because 'hes a healer'. Once you have 2-3 templars forget about it, youre simply waiting for them to slack and not heal.

Healing should be supplemental to survival, in the same way blocking, dodging, buffing and other factors should be. When someone can just lay helplessly on the ground or even someone is sitting there AFK being kept alive while a DPS rips everything he has into him - theres a problem with healing. Its primarily BoL spam and its rate of fire. When you have someone actually spec'd into healing with a good survival build, you have the result of the healing templar I play with... able to survive against 5-10 players beating on him for at least 2minutes with heal spam. Its a joke on both ends.

Hi FENGRUSH:

You think healing is "over the top" from your perspective because you are a stamina sorc who specializes in damage. You think I heal too much with BoL? Too bad. L2P. Every decent stamina build in the game - and I'm assuming yours since you are a decent player can out DPS the big Breath of Life heal globly cooldown per global cooldown if you animation cancel. You only play a sorcerer who gets frustrated because you cant kill a healer fast enough (Gee, sorry for using my only survival tool...maybe you should stop using your survival tool like dodging and streaking if it bothers you so much). You have no idea what's it's like to play a healer or a templar otherwise you wouldn't be asking ZoS to nerf you competitors survival tools.

If you don't like healers so much, why don;t you try not maximizing your weapon damage and actually use the tools in the game to prevent it: you are a staimna build with easy access to reverberating bash and major defile and you choose not to use it. That's on you...not because heals are "out of control." If you reverberating bash a tempalr healer, they have to spend 2 global cooldowns just to get that debuff off (a CC break and a cleanse), in the meantime you could lay in 2 animation canceled heavy attacks, and two DPS skills of your choice which should be be enough to finish off the pesky templar.

If you trying to kill some guy who has 2-3 templars as in the scenario you described above, sorry that's a L2P issue on your part. Mot DPS just want to stack weapon damage and spam the highest damage skills and expect that to overcome any tanking or healing that other players do and when it doesn't work come to the forums and say that tanking and healing are over the top (and usually think dodge roll, on the other hand, was over-nerfed).

I die every night in Cyrodiil as do the players I heal. Quite frankly, it isn't that difficult.

Joy sums it up pretty well i thought

Fengrush has some good skills with that Stam Sorc of his but what i cannot understand is why he wouldn't come prepared into fighting for most of us are against overwhelming odds

I would of thought the obvious answer is bring a few mates that are Templars

Then i look forward to watching him protecting his Healers as that is who they will target first

Just like he does (apart from Nightblades who have the audacity to use stealth)

This is probably why Fengrush doesn't have Templars on his team: No one wants to play them in pvp, apart from a few healing die-hards.

Pretty good line from someone who didnt watch me stream grouped with shuyinhail for like 3+months straight in the IC patch every single night? Yea - hes a pure healer. I wont count Essa - who was the 3rd guy in the group, also a templar... or any of the other templars Ive been grouped with in my small scale PvP.

I went back and cut a video off my youtube where I ranted about this kind of stuff. Deals with it better than writing a long post anyway:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HJe5FjBIdo

Looks like they changed BoL instead of addressing issues that impact the game on a grander scale - crazy resources through CP. You guys are looking for a scapegoat and you can blame FENGRUSH if you want - but misrepresenting me is pathetic especially when many of you never engaged in a discussion with me.

You cant control Im saying on my stream. A lot of you make assumptions and just run off on tangents based on 1 thing you heard, even if it was indirectly. Have at it - at the end of the day, Im just expressing my opinion.. I cant help that so many people agree with my point of view. Seems like Im probably right about something.

That was two months ago, so honestly I had forgotten about that statement. It wasn't a jab at you either so please don't take it that way. I've run up against you a number of times (and actually teamed with you a couple). The reality is my playtime is rather limited for the last six months so perhaps my perspective at that time is wrong. Of the times I've butt heads with you out in IC/Cyrodiil though I don't think I saw you once with a Templar on your team. I don't generally watch streams, so I'm not a customer. I'm just a guy who fights in Cyrodiil when he can. My observations at that time were based on what I saw. You have my apologies if I was wrong. The reply though is a bit late to the game here though, that conversation is really old news. At the time I am pretty sure I was wanting you to weigh in on the topic with regard to more and more Templars leaving the game. A Number of friends in game are ex-Templars who are sick of the class, and sick of ZoS decisions on how to deal with them. Some of those friends you know as well. Again my statements were not made with hostility.

TLDR: @Fengrush I was not scapegoating you :P

Joy_Division

Hi @FENGRUSH ! Yes, I didn't like any of your opinions on that thread. Actually it wasn't so much that I didn't "like" them, it was that I felt like they targeted and attempt to address a single aspect of the game that did not consider the entire brokeness of the game. So, no, I would not like broken healing to be addressed but still have broken damage, broken infinite resource management, and all the other stuff you mention in your video because that just screws healers over.

Do I think you have been unfairly criticized and people see you as a boogie-man out to nerf healers? I do. Now. But that depiction was not just the product of some paranoid healers. When you first brought up this narrative, you basically just said "*** BoL!" and did not elaborate as you did in the "rant" video you posted above. First impressions. You became associated with the healing OP narrative that had and still has a lot of traction on these forums. Do I think the BoL nerf (and to a lesser degree funnel health) was does in large part to placate that crowd (as opposed to specifically you)? Yes I do. Do I give a sh*t or blame you for ruining my class? No I don't because it was obvious many people on these forums were under the impression that healing is too strong so ZoS had a legit reason to make such a change and I don't think templars are ruined. Also, I believe you have done more than enough to better flesh out your objections and comprehend why you deem healing is broken and that it is just a byproduct of a broken game. You now have made it clear that we can't just nerf BoL or healing and that is something I can appreciate. And that is why I think the anti-templar boogieman that people scapegoat you as is now unfair.

What might surprise you is that there was nothing you said in that video I could not disagree with and actually most of it I found myself saying, "Yep, that's right." I watched the whole thing. We are, and have been, playing a game for a year now where every class can pretty much do anything for an infinite amount of time because of out of control resources and no soft caps. You are right, we don't have to make choices any more. I dislike the fact broken healing is necessary to counteract broken damage and broken shields and broken/bugged skills and broken resource "management," but it is what it is.

Because of that, templars have to kick and scream at ZoS even if they consider nerfing BoL as they have no mobility, a sh*t shield, no more blinding flashes, and with this patch are losing a primary defense with the purify nerf and now will have to stay in their focus. just like as you said sorcs are 100% reliant on conjured ward. You are right in that templar utility and non BoL defenses need to be adjusted but until that happens, templars are not going to want even discuss a BoL nerf and I don't blame them. I can appreciate the retorts others might have in that having broken healing exist just because other stuff is broken is a poor justification for keeping it. To that I say too damn bad, let's nerf your broken sh*t first and then we'll deal with mine. Or, to be more eloquent, quid pro quo.

This patch tells me that ZoS has little intention on ever making ESO anything more than a beer and pretzels type of game that is relatively simple and meant to be fun as opposed to complex and attentive to detail. This was their second chance to address balance and we have seen more of the same: simple measures and arbitrary numbers to move the game in the direction away from what complaints have gotten a lot of attention on the forums. I do not think they have the resources or the priority to make the sort of complex interaction between healing, damage, CC, and number of players that you, myself, some of the more vocal people on these forums, and the many who have left are looking for. It is a shame, because I think the gameplay and general theory behind this game of managing resources as opposed to cooldowns are top-notch. At this point, I'd be satisfied with their beer and pretzels approach if the class I play can compete (as opposed to how), if my ping wasn't constantly over 400, and if they would just get rid of AoE caps.

FENGRUSH

Joy_Division wrote: »

Hi @FENGRUSH ! Yes, I didn't like any of your opinions on that thread. Actually it wasn't so much that I didn't "like" them, it was that I felt like they targeted and attempt to address a single aspect of the game that did not consider the entire brokeness of the game. So, no, I would not like broken healing to be addressed but still have broken damage, broken infinite resource management, and all the other stuff you mention in your video because that just screws healers over.

Do I think you have been unfairly criticized and people see you as a boogie-man out to nerf healers? I do. Now. But that depiction was not just the product of some paranoid healers. When you first brought up this narrative, you basically just said "*** BoL!" and did not elaborate as you did in the "rant" video you posted above. First impressions. You became associated with the healing OP narrative that had and still has a lot of traction on these forums. Do I think the BoL nerf (and to a lesser degree funnel health) was does in large part to placate that crowd (as opposed to specifically you)? Yes I do. Do I give a sh*t or blame you for ruining my class? No I don't because it was obvious many people on these forums were under the impression that healing is too strong so ZoS had a legit reason to make such a change and I don't think templars are ruined. Also, I believe you have done more than enough to better flesh out your objections and comprehend why you deem healing is broken and that it is just a byproduct of a broken game. You now have made it clear that we can't just nerf BoL or healing and that is something I can appreciate. And that is why I think the anti-templar boogieman that people scapegoat you as is now unfair.

What might surprise you is that there was nothing you said in that video I could not disagree with and actually most of it I found myself saying, "Yep, that's right." I watched the whole thing. We are, and have been, playing a game for a year now where every class can pretty much do anything for an infinite amount of time because of out of control resources and no soft caps. You are right, we don't have to make choices any more. I dislike the fact broken healing is necessary to counteract broken damage and broken shields and broken/bugged skills and broken resource "management," but it is what it is.

Because of that, templars have to kick and scream at ZoS even if they consider nerfing BoL as they have no mobility, a sh*t shield, no more blinding flashes, and with this patch are losing a primary defense with the purify nerf and now will have to stay in their focus. just like as you said sorcs are 100% reliant on conjured ward. You are right in that templar utility and non BoL defenses need to be adjusted but until that happens, templars are not going to want even discuss a BoL nerf and I don't blame them. I can appreciate the retorts others might have in that having broken healing exist just because other stuff is broken is a poor justification for keeping it. To that I say too damn bad, let's nerf your broken sh*t first and then we'll deal with mine. Or, to be more eloquent, quid pro quo.

This patch tells me that ZoS has little intention on ever making ESO anything more than a beer and pretzels type of game that is relatively simple and meant to be fun as opposed to complex and attentive to detail. This was their second chance to address balance and we have seen more of the same: simple measures and arbitrary numbers to move the game in the direction away from what complaints have gotten a lot of attention on the forums. I do not think they have the resources or the priority to make the sort of complex interaction between healing, damage, CC, and number of players that you, myself, some of the more vocal people on these forums, and the many who have left are looking for. It is a shame, because I think the gameplay and general theory behind this game of managing resources as opposed to cooldowns are top-notch. At this point, I'd be satisfied with their beer and pretzels approach if the class I play can compete (as opposed to how), if my ping wasn't constantly over 400, and if they would just get rid of AoE caps.

That is an amazing post - and I agree with you strongly on the closing of them having little intention in making changes to better a goal. I dont think they have a goal - their only goal is to minimize complaints, which seemingly never end and with good reason. They have no vision and no direction and therefore they cannot communicate with the community what intended changes are supposed to be moving us towards. We just get dealt things in lump sums every few months and see friends leave the game and performance never improve.

This was their second chance to address balance for me - and coupled with the fact that they intend to add arenas, I cant realistically believe they will ever be any good if this is the idea of balance and we only get this every few months. There are likely 3-4 more large patches like this before arenas, so best of luck to the players who are still in the game when that happens, some classes are going to get the short end of a stick in what people choose to run in a 4v4.

I get the changes thing too as mentioned earlier, fixing before nerfing. Its as I say with WB - yes it should be changed, but other options need to be entertained as well too, or what do I realistically have to use on a stam sorc? I can use S+B right now to be fair, but if my fall back was the current dual weild and bow it would be a disaster having 0 stam morphs in a class that again - received absolutely 0 changes or even new skills. They even redid pets for magicka sorcs which had plenty of options, but generally speaking - 1 preferred route of playing (but all of the class skills enabled for their use). People just ran with the ideas of some things I said on ESO live which (while they were an issue related to larger groups ressing people endlessly with no penalty) took away that I was actually just saying the healing needed to be nerfed. I have been pretty offensive to BoL, but Ive also taken time to think it over and talk with healers and try to better understand the problem. It helps if everyone does. But ultimately, it benefits very little because at the end of the day ZOS will implement their solution to our perceived problems, not always the ones we want. Simpler is better for them, so best to not change big things when they can adjust small skills and say they 'made a good effort to fix it'. So it goes.

dodgehopper_ESO

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Hi @FENGRUSH ! Yes, I didn't like any of your opinions on that thread. Actually it wasn't so much that I didn't "like" them, it was that I felt like they targeted and attempt to address a single aspect of the game that did not consider the entire brokeness of the game. So, no, I would not like broken healing to be addressed but still have broken damage, broken infinite resource management, and all the other stuff you mention in your video because that just screws healers over.

Do I think you have been unfairly criticized and people see you as a boogie-man out to nerf healers? I do. Now. But that depiction was not just the product of some paranoid healers. When you first brought up this narrative, you basically just said "*** BoL!" and did not elaborate as you did in the "rant" video you posted above. First impressions. You became associated with the healing OP narrative that had and still has a lot of traction on these forums. Do I think the BoL nerf (and to a lesser degree funnel health) was does in large part to placate that crowd (as opposed to specifically you)? Yes I do. Do I give a sh*t or blame you for ruining my class? No I don't because it was obvious many people on these forums were under the impression that healing is too strong so ZoS had a legit reason to make such a change and I don't think templars are ruined. Also, I believe you have done more than enough to better flesh out your objections and comprehend why you deem healing is broken and that it is just a byproduct of a broken game. You now have made it clear that we can't just nerf BoL or healing and that is something I can appreciate. And that is why I think the anti-templar boogieman that people scapegoat you as is now unfair.

What might surprise you is that there was nothing you said in that video I could not disagree with and actually most of it I found myself saying, "Yep, that's right." I watched the whole thing. We are, and have been, playing a game for a year now where every class can pretty much do anything for an infinite amount of time because of out of control resources and no soft caps. You are right, we don't have to make choices any more. I dislike the fact broken healing is necessary to counteract broken damage and broken shields and broken/bugged skills and broken resource "management," but it is what it is.

Because of that, templars have to kick and scream at ZoS even if they consider nerfing BoL as they have no mobility, a sh*t shield, no more blinding flashes, and with this patch are losing a primary defense with the purify nerf and now will have to stay in their focus. just like as you said sorcs are 100% reliant on conjured ward. You are right in that templar utility and non BoL defenses need to be adjusted but until that happens, templars are not going to want even discuss a BoL nerf and I don't blame them. I can appreciate the retorts others might have in that having broken healing exist just because other stuff is broken is a poor justification for keeping it. To that I say too damn bad, let's nerf your broken sh*t first and then we'll deal with mine. Or, to be more eloquent, quid pro quo.

This patch tells me that ZoS has little intention on ever making ESO anything more than a beer and pretzels type of game that is relatively simple and meant to be fun as opposed to complex and attentive to detail. This was their second chance to address balance and we have seen more of the same: simple measures and arbitrary numbers to move the game in the direction away from what complaints have gotten a lot of attention on the forums. I do not think they have the resources or the priority to make the sort of complex interaction between healing, damage, CC, and number of players that you, myself, some of the more vocal people on these forums, and the many who have left are looking for. It is a shame, because I think the gameplay and general theory behind this game of managing resources as opposed to cooldowns are top-notch. At this point, I'd be satisfied with their beer and pretzels approach if the class I play can compete (as opposed to how), if my ping wasn't constantly over 400, and if they would just get rid of AoE caps.

That is an amazing post - and I agree with you strongly on the closing of them having little intention in making changes to better a goal. I dont think they have a goal - their only goal is to minimize complaints, which seemingly never end and with good reason. They have no vision and no direction and therefore they cannot communicate with the community what intended changes are supposed to be moving us towards. We just get dealt things in lump sums every few months and see friends leave the game and performance never improve.

This was their second chance to address balance for me - and coupled with the fact that they intend to add arenas, I cant realistically believe they will ever be any good if this is the idea of balance and we only get this every few months. There are likely 3-4 more large patches like this before arenas, so best of luck to the players who are still in the game when that happens, some classes are going to get the short end of a stick in what people choose to run in a 4v4.

I get the changes thing too as mentioned earlier, fixing before nerfing. Its as I say with WB - yes it should be changed, but other options need to be entertained as well too, or what do I realistically have to use on a stam sorc? I can use S+B right now to be fair, but if my fall back was the current dual weild and bow it would be a disaster having 0 stam morphs in a class that again - received absolutely 0 changes or even new skills. They even redid pets for magicka sorcs which had plenty of options, but generally speaking - 1 preferred route of playing (but all of the class skills enabled for their use). People just ran with the ideas of some things I said on ESO live which (while they were an issue related to larger groups ressing people endlessly with no penalty) took away that I was actually just saying the healing needed to be nerfed. I have been pretty offensive to BoL, but Ive also taken time to think it over and talk with healers and try to better understand the problem. It helps if everyone does. But ultimately, it benefits very little because at the end of the day ZOS will implement their solution to our perceived problems, not always the ones we want. Simpler is better for them, so best to not change big things when they can adjust small skills and say they 'made a good effort to fix it'. So it goes.

Actually you sum up a lot of my thoughts on the situation @Fengrush. A long time ago I pointed out that if Breath of Life was holding back the Templar class from being good at anything but being a Red/Green Battery then they ought to reconsider the skill. Many of the other heals are sub-par or better served by out of class abilities as well, which just serves to make the class less interesting. The magic dps tree (Dawn's Wrath) is problematic because it is ponderous and slow, tends to target fewer enemies, and simply underperforms with respect to other classes. It also suffers from not really being useful to Stamina players at all, even Backlash which should in some respect be useful to DPS is not, thereby giving up all passive benefits of the class. Other classes still have passive benefits to things like this, including for instance Disintegrate that Sorcerers get, or all the Flame buffs that Dk's get. I know a lot of players dislike flame breath but I actually like it for the snare. Nightblade is the perfect class, because all 3 trees are useful by any build, stamina or magicka. The passives are synergistic and flow, and there are a lot of good options and choices available. Nightblade on playstyle alone has been my personal favorite class to play since the beginning. Once they dealt with a lot of the core problems it was a superstar. I am just hoping that they would do the same thing for Templar, and deal with its <obvious> core issues.

In one respect I do feel for your concerns with the Stamina Sorc, particularly with respect to Wrecking Blow. I think you could do quite well with Dual Wield and Sword and Board though (I'm an avid fan of this skill line, but haven't played it lately because it is almost all I pvp'd with for a year). Stamina players in general have a sense of being 'on the rails', although I think Nightblade feels this less so with a lot of viable choices, and Dragon Knight as well having a lot of choice despite their protestations at not having a stamina execute. What worries me about this suggestion from both DK and Sorc players is that it does not acknowledge the completely lack of something comparable for Templars (Jabs/Javelin do not cut it) and I'm fairly certain DK and Sorc will get the same treatment as NB in this regard which would put the Templar class even further down the totem pole. I think the issue is that DK and Sorcerer envy what the NB has and wants it as well, which to be frank is pretty fair. If Radiant Destruction had a Stamina and Magicka morph, I think I could get a lot more behind this suggestion. For me personally, as I've discussed with you on the forums before, I would prefer it came from the Iconic lightning skill line. I don't have a problem with Flame Whip getting Stamina Treatment, although I have concerns with its spammable qualties would quite possibly make DK too good. The big problem is that they need to step back and look at the big picture, and they really need to leverage the experience of people have played these characters for a great deal of time. They need to take a proper inventory of the skill lists and look at what skills are really not that interesting or useful, and that includes non-class abilities as well. There are a lot of skills out there that are too niche to be of any use to anyone.