My Take on Templars

Mumyo

Aura.......

Mumyo

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Good post. Blinding Flashes and Blazing Shield back please!
I thought I knew Templar, was wrong. The passive that nerfs Backlash and other morph, never even realised until now!

blinding flashes would be way too strong in this state of the game. That would make every melee totally chanceless against u.

Mumyo

danno8 wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Good post. Blinding Flashes and Blazing Shield back please!
I thought I knew Templar, was wrong. The passive that nerfs Backlash and other morph, never even realised until now!

Backlash should explode immediately upon hitting the cap.

And yes, Enduring Rays should just be reworked completely as most of the time it just spreads your damage out over a longer duration without actually increasing the damage. If anything it should do the opposite, ie, make your DoTs and channels tick faster, not longer.

Or it should not affect the "Duration" but rather the "Number of Ticks" specifically. However I think the skills would have to be reworked also because of the way ZoS has set them up to tick as a function of damage/time, rather than damage/tick.

What would that be like in PvE whenu run with a group, their damage also counts.

WillhelmBlack

Mumyo wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Good post. Blinding Flashes and Blazing Shield back please!
I thought I knew Templar, was wrong. The passive that nerfs Backlash and other morph, never even realised until now!

blinding flashes would be way too strong in this state of the game. That would make every melee totally chanceless against u.

It would need changing to say 20% dodge chance but grants x amount of stamina for each time you're hit whilst active or something like that. Obviously it would be high cost/short duration.

WillhelmBlack

Mumyo wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Good post. Blinding Flashes and Blazing Shield back please!
I thought I knew Templar, was wrong. The passive that nerfs Backlash and other morph, never even realised until now!

Backlash should explode immediately upon hitting the cap.

And yes, Enduring Rays should just be reworked completely as most of the time it just spreads your damage out over a longer duration without actually increasing the damage. If anything it should do the opposite, ie, make your DoTs and channels tick faster, not longer.

Or it should not affect the "Duration" but rather the "Number of Ticks" specifically. However I think the skills would have to be reworked also because of the way ZoS has set them up to tick as a function of damage/time, rather than damage/tick.

What would that be like in PvE whenu run with a group, their damage also counts.

Make it so it's just the Templars damage that stacks.

danno8

Mumyo wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Good post. Blinding Flashes and Blazing Shield back please!
I thought I knew Templar, was wrong. The passive that nerfs Backlash and other morph, never even realised until now!

Backlash should explode immediately upon hitting the cap.

And yes, Enduring Rays should just be reworked completely as most of the time it just spreads your damage out over a longer duration without actually increasing the damage. If anything it should do the opposite, ie, make your DoTs and channels tick faster, not longer.

Or it should not affect the "Duration" but rather the "Number of Ticks" specifically. However I think the skills would have to be reworked also because of the way ZoS has set them up to tick as a function of damage/time, rather than damage/tick.

What would that be like in PvE whenu run with a group, their damage also counts.

Well if the cap is say 15k on a decent build and you spammed it every second, then I guess your build would sport 15k dps. Not all that large tbh, but I would accept a lower cap if it exploded immediately upon reaching it.

Honestly the skill is a function of damage your are already taking, so if you are already taking high damage, then this just adds more high damage.

Insurrektion

Elusive Mist and Accelerating Drain both give mobility. The mist also gives you an escape.

Edit: Jesus Beam could probably use a bit of a buff to strengthen it as a finisher. The biggest complaint I hear about Templars from top tier players though is their sustainability for recovering resources in combat is lacking. I admit I don't play templar but I really don't see it that much. Repentance and Channeled Focus - are they that bad?

Solariken

Bravo, OP! As a Templar main I sympathize will all of your points.

I have to say I miss Blazing Shield the most - in its glory days it could be a wrecking ball (albeit a fair, balanced one with appropriate limitations). Now it pops after a single hit and does laughable damage.

Akinos

Insurrektion wrote: »

Elusive Mist and Accelerating Drain both give mobility. The mist also gives you an escape.

Edit: Jesus Beam could probably use a bit of a buff to strengthen it as a finisher. The biggest complaint I hear about Templars from top tier players though is their sustainability for recovering resources in combat is lacking. I admit I don't play templar but I really don't see it that much. Repentance and Channeled Focus - are they that bad?

It's not that they are bad, it's just that we have to slot 2 extra skills just for regen while other classes don't have that problem.

contact.opiumb16_ESO

Insurrektion wrote: »

Elusive Mist and Accelerating Drain both give mobility. The mist also gives you an escape.

Edit: Jesus Beam could probably use a bit of a buff to strengthen it as a finisher. The biggest complaint I hear about Templars from top tier players though is their sustainability for recovering resources in combat is lacking. I admit I don't play templar but I really don't see it that much. Repentance and Channeled Focus - are they that bad?

Sure, but you need to go vamp for this... when NB and sorcerers have mobility/escape abilities, when DK have awesome tanking abilities, templars have none, just heals BUT templars are supposed to be healers or tank or dps, group oriented. Actually only healing bot build works well in a PVP PoV.

Asmael

contact.opiumb16_ESO wrote: »

Insurrektion wrote: »

Elusive Mist and Accelerating Drain both give mobility. The mist also gives you an escape.

Edit: Jesus Beam could probably use a bit of a buff to strengthen it as a finisher. The biggest complaint I hear about Templars from top tier players though is their sustainability for recovering resources in combat is lacking. I admit I don't play templar but I really don't see it that much. Repentance and Channeled Focus - are they that bad?

Sure, but you need to go vamp for this... when NB and sorcerers have mobility/escape abilities, when DK had awesome tanking abilities, templars have none, just heals BUT templars are supposed to be healers or tank or dps, group oriented. Actually only healing bot build works well in a PVP PoV.

Here, fixed it for ya.

I'm trying to make a magicka temp work solo. It's an absolute pain...

contact.opiumb16_ESO

Asmael wrote: »

contact.opiumb16_ESO wrote: »

Insurrektion wrote: »

Elusive Mist and Accelerating Drain both give mobility. The mist also gives you an escape.

Edit: Jesus Beam could probably use a bit of a buff to strengthen it as a finisher. The biggest complaint I hear about Templars from top tier players though is their sustainability for recovering resources in combat is lacking. I admit I don't play templar but I really don't see it that much. Repentance and Channeled Focus - are they that bad?

Sure, but you need to go vamp for this... when NB and sorcerers have mobility/escape abilities, when DK had awesome tanking abilities, templars have none, just heals BUT templars are supposed to be healers or tank or dps, group oriented. Actually only healing bot build works well in a PVP PoV.

Here, fixed it for ya.

I'm trying to make a magicka temp work solo. It's an absolute pain...

Well... considering the fact that DK are still on top of the PVE tanking rank (and more or less best dps too in pve), and considering the fact that i still see a lot (i don't refer here to the top 10 dk UE, but the average dk tanks) of DK tanking 1vX in pvp, i don't feel that they have lose their tankiness/dps awesome ratio. Sure at day 1 DK were OP (especially dunmer vamp dk), sure they are less and less op, but i don't feel they have lose their balls, unlike templars. That's just my feeling, because i just recently rerolled a baby dk, i don't have enough experience to have detailled argues on this class... I know very well templars and sorcerers because i play those since beta, i have a good experience in NB too, but not dk.

Baphomet

Radiant oppression has actually been nerfed so much (4-5 times) that even in execute range its dps hardly exceeds spamming dark flare or sweeps. That's not quite what an execute is about - and one can't really argue that flare or sweeps are OP either, so there's room for improvement there.

Sun shield is another "must fix" asap because it's been so underpowered since 1.6.
More absorbtion, longer duration and higher (return) damage - it's really that simple.

Channeled focus should regenerate magicka as default. Then one morph should empower healing, the other one should give major expedition.

Sun fire should have higher impact damage and a weaker DoT damage.

Minno

Baphomet wrote: »

Radiant oppression has actually been nerfed so much (4-5 times) that even in execute range its dps hardly exceeds spamming dark flare or sweeps. That's not quite what an execute is about - and one can't really argue that flare or sweeps are OP either, so there's room for improvement there.

Sun shield is another "must fix" asap because it's been so underpowered since 1.6.
More absorbtion, longer duration and higher (return) damage - it's really that simple.

Channeled focus should regenerate magicka as default. Then one morph should empower healing, the other one should give major expedition.

Sun fire should have higher impact damage and a weaker DoT damage.

I like that suggested channeled focus!

Vyle_Byte

Damn Joy, you hit so many awesome points, long but fantastic read! Such a well thought out and outlined post, I really hope this doesn't get buried or at worst, not even glanced at by ZOS.

Why can they not see what they have done to this class? And if they do, wtf makes them think its okay like this?

I would love to highlight all the things in this post that I loved and agreed with but its too much. I will just say that I agree, 100% support the OP, you've got a great grasp on the little things that have, over time, made the Temp so much more lackluster than they used to be.

"Do you have any idea of how frustrating it is to be a customer of the product you sell?"
THIS. SO. MUCH.

Xexpo

Awesome, Awesome, Awesome post!
marry me please

bookmarking for many future link shares

dodgehopper_ESO

Insurrektion wrote: »

Elusive Mist and Accelerating Drain both give mobility. The mist also gives you an escape.

Edit: Jesus Beam could probably use a bit of a buff to strengthen it as a finisher. The biggest complaint I hear about Templars from top tier players though is their sustainability for recovering resources in combat is lacking. I admit I don't play templar but I really don't see it that much. Repentance and Channeled Focus - are they that bad?

I can buy the Elusive Mist to a point but accelerating drain really? You actually have to stop and drain something and then get mobility? I'm sorry that's not mobility. I'm not saying Templars need mobility either, but they need more of their old regenerative/mitigating/cc effects. The problem with Repentance and Channeled Focus is that they are essentially required use to get baseline recovery that other people get for free with passives, or passives that apply to a wide array of actives. I would add that channeled focus is okay, but falls flat when compared to the duration of Sorc Actives (boundless lightning) and the passives that are granting 10% magic regen, 20% health regen, 20% stamina regen. The Sorc passives just get better from there. Really I don't see how anyone can argue that templar is better at anything except raw healing.

dodgehopper_ESO

I just had a thought about Sun Shield. They could work it in one of two ways that might make it better. Perhaps it could pulse damage like Boundless Lightning and have a comparable duration (to boundless & ward). There really is no reason that this skill has such weak damage and a weak shield. The cost isn't worth what it gives, which is pretty bad on a class that relied on Blinding Flashes and Sun Shield for its tanking.

The other alternative I offer is to give the shield a reflect type damage, similar to what Spike Armor does on the DK.

Akinos

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Insurrektion wrote: »

Elusive Mist and Accelerating Drain both give mobility. The mist also gives you an escape.

Edit: Jesus Beam could probably use a bit of a buff to strengthen it as a finisher. The biggest complaint I hear about Templars from top tier players though is their sustainability for recovering resources in combat is lacking. I admit I don't play templar but I really don't see it that much. Repentance and Channeled Focus - are they that bad?

I can buy the Elusive Mist to a point but accelerating drain really? You actually have to stop and drain something and then get mobility? I'm sorry that's not mobility. I'm not saying Templars need mobility either, but they need more of their old regenerative/mitigating/cc effects. The problem with Repentance and Channeled Focus is that they are essentially required use to get baseline recovery that other people get for free with passives, or passives that apply to a wide array of actives. I would add that channeled focus is okay, but falls flat when compared to the duration of Sorc Actives (boundless lightning) and the passives that are granting 10% magic regen, 20% health regen, 20% stamina regen. The Sorc passives just get better from there. Really I don't see how anyone can argue that templar is better at anything except raw healing.

Not to mention that "mobility" from accelerating drain is only 10% move speed, even when maxed. I looked this up last night. It's not worth.

Joy_Division

I updated the thread since ZoS confirmed they are doing a re-balancing and to include my thoughts regarding the recent nerfs as well as my experiences in Maelstrom Arena.

Warraxx

needs moar stamplar

Joy_Division

Warraxx wrote: »

needs moar stamplar

Agreed, but I have zero experience running one so it's best for me to step aside and let someone who knows them comment.

leegriff2876b16_ESO

Magic built Templar v16. Went to bed last night able to do 16k base damage with radiant oppression, I do the update on Xbox one and now my radiant oppression only does 9k, wtf. No mention in patch notes of changes to Templar skills.

Can you please change the name of my class to wet lettuce.

Mrs_Quietus

blabafat wrote: »

Very interesting and detailed post

A few things I'd like to add:

So I don't think Templars are in a terrible position. Overall, I personally think it's a balanced class. Obviously, it is not absolutely perfect.

A few things that I think should be changed that wouldn't be OP:

-Radiant destruction should not be dodgeable while being channeled
-Eclipse bugs need to be fixed
-CC needs to synergize better, toppling charge has a delay after using it, eclipse, jabs, and javelin CCs are very weak
-Ultimates should be more viable. Nova is probably the best one, and it's only strong for group play. In a solo environment, it's useless. The synergy is what makes it powerful. Radial Sweep is WAY worse than dawnbreaker.
-Blazing Shield is very weak. If the size of the shield is going to stay the same, it needs to be longer than 6 seconds

All in all I think Templar is the most balanced class in the current state of the game. Some changes, like the ones I listed above need to be considered of course.

I would like to see radial sweep at least have either a cone or aoe/cc knock back added to it...all other classes have ultis with its own insta knock back or cc (dragon leap, soul tether, incapacitate strike, atro, negate). We have nova crush, but that is reliant on a synergy. I would love to have blinding flashes back as well, not at the original 50% chance (I agree that was op), but 25-30% maybe???? Just to give magic templars some sort of viable dodge chance ability. Blazing shield is not quite enough to deter melee attackers to back off anymore, and I feel cheesy trying to run shuffle in full light armor >.<

#templar4life

caeliusstarbreaker

Honestly I say bring blinding flashes back at 50%.. It only works against melee attacks anyway

Mrs_Quietus

Thank you for this amazing post Joy, great voice for us Templars

caeliusstarbreaker

All templar specific:
Increase proc chance of burning light to 60% since we have a main channel dps skill that leaves us slowed and vulnerable.
Or since we have so manny channels and cast time oriented abilities, turn sweeps/jabs into a one quick thrust burst dmg ability similar to surprise attack/concealed weapon.. Allows us to have at least one quick ability and not be forever vulnerable via channel/cast time.

Fix toppling charge, make explosive stam morph too cause why not. Also make it grant a snare/immob to target if it's not going to knock people down.. Above all I would just like it to work.

Stamplar/allplar:
For the love of Akatosh let our restoring light passives work across all heals,

increase healing received for restoring focus to be in line with igneous shield and increase time to 12 sec when stepping outside rune.

Bring back blinding flashes so I have a reason to use magicka again.

Make rememberance give ~60% dmg reduc and healing while allowing us to stay mobile And continue to fight. Maybe well use it then. Think wolverine level regen here

Change radial sweep to 10-12m pbaoe knockdown, keep dmg the same, have it boost wpn/spell dmg 8% like dawnbreaker on one morph, and give it more dmg on the other


**mind you, realistically none of these things will happen, nor do I think they all should at exactly the stayed values and intent, however something does need to be done, I don't think any of these suggestions really send Templars into some weird world of untold godliness, but if we have to stand and fight, which I'm ok with, let us stand and fight**

Mrs_Quietus

Minno wrote: »

Baphomet wrote: »

Radiant oppression has actually been nerfed so much (4-5 times) that even in execute range its dps hardly exceeds spamming dark flare or sweeps. That's not quite what an execute is about - and one can't really argue that flare or sweeps are OP either, so there's room for improvement there.

Sun shield is another "must fix" asap because it's been so underpowered since 1.6.
More absorbtion, longer duration and higher (return) damage - it's really that simple.

Channeled focus should regenerate magicka as default. Then one morph should empower healing, the other one should give major expedition.

Sun fire should have higher impact damage and a weaker DoT damage.

I like that suggested channeled focus!

IMHO I think Templars have great magic/stam sustain (I have never had problems managing stats, just slot repentance and you're good). I also don't think they need a buff to heals as they already have the best heals in the game (I hit 19k BOL crits regualarly on my healer, I would start to feel bad if i could empower that even more). Unless throwing down a focus empowers ALL heals, that way stamplars can utilize it (though it would be better for the restoring light tree passives to just apply to all heals).

Spacemonkey

@Joy_Division I agree 100% with almost everything you wrote. My only divergence in opinion is that allthough sun shield is a shadow of it's former self. It's still pretty darn useful (but that might be because mobs got nerfed all over the place)

@Wrobel, @ZOS_GinaBruno or whoever else that reads these forums; I strongly urge ZOS to read this - I've been playing almost only Templar since Beta - I like the class, it's a fun class, I don't like playing glass cannons. But you are slapping us silly with the changes and nerfs. At this point I've used almost all Templar abilities and morphs because I'm always switching to the next best ability when one gets hammered (Thanks? You've forced me to experience I guess). I've slowly switched to mostly resto-staff for healing and 2H for sustain when I used to have a mix of all 3 of my class skill lines, 2H, Heavy Armor, Fighter's Guild, and Soul lines. My build gets more repetitive and kinda boring with each nerf update to templars. All of this, pretty much spot-on because of what Joy_Division has explained in the opening post.

dodgehopper_ESO

Akinos wrote: »

Insurrektion wrote: »

Elusive Mist and Accelerating Drain both give mobility. The mist also gives you an escape.

Edit: Jesus Beam could probably use a bit of a buff to strengthen it as a finisher. The biggest complaint I hear about Templars from top tier players though is their sustainability for recovering resources in combat is lacking. I admit I don't play templar but I really don't see it that much. Repentance and Channeled Focus - are they that bad?

It's not that they are bad, it's just that we have to slot 2 extra skills just for regen while other classes don't have that problem.

It also all comes from the same Restoring Light skill lines, and the passives are of limited benefit. To take advantage of your passives as a Templar requires slotting a lot more class skills than normal I would say. Classes like Nightblade for instance can get access to most of their passives with minimal effort, and greater choice.