My Take on Templars

dodgehopper_ESO

Mrs_Quietus wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Baphomet wrote: »

Radiant oppression has actually been nerfed so much (4-5 times) that even in execute range its dps hardly exceeds spamming dark flare or sweeps. That's not quite what an execute is about - and one can't really argue that flare or sweeps are OP either, so there's room for improvement there.

Sun shield is another "must fix" asap because it's been so underpowered since 1.6.
More absorbtion, longer duration and higher (return) damage - it's really that simple.

Channeled focus should regenerate magicka as default. Then one morph should empower healing, the other one should give major expedition.

Sun fire should have higher impact damage and a weaker DoT damage.

I like that suggested channeled focus!

IMHO I think Templars have great magic/stam sustain (I have never had problems managing stats, just slot repentance and you're good). I also don't think they need a buff to heals as they already have the best heals in the game (I hit 19k BOL crits regualarly on my healer, I would start to feel bad if i could empower that even more). Unless throwing down a focus empowers ALL heals, that way stamplars can utilize it (though it would be better for the restoring light tree passives to just apply to all heals).

Templars do have the best heals but yes, we need a way to get Stamplars to actually heal themselves, because Stamplar is hurting on the self protection front with respect to other classes.

tinythinker

Nice write-up and follow-up. I keep tinkering with my own suggestions for tweaks and little fixes for Templar as well, a list which grows slowly over time. I, too, would love to have Blinding Flashes back, but the odds of that seem astronomically low.

On the off chance Wrobel or someone from his team reads this thread, or, at the very least, as something for other players who run Templars to look at...

AEDRIC SPEAR

Replace the Knockback on Puncturing Strikes and its morphs with a Stun (target can't move or use abilities until effect ends or they Break Free) or pair the Knockback with Concussion (target deals 10% less damage for the duration of the effect or until they Break Free). This gives an opening for another ability or weapon attack rather than just spam, spam, spam, spam...

Give a 15% base damage increase to Piercing Javelin and its morphs rather than 10% only to the Aurora Javelin morph; increase the range of the Aurora Javelin morph from 20 to 25 meters, increase the travel speed of the projectile to compensate for the longer distance, and boost the extra damage based on distance to a max of 60%.

Increase shield strength to 40% of caster's health for Sun Shield and its morphs. Double the damage on activation for Radiant Aura while either Stunning or Knocking Back those caught in the blast of the activation. Add Disorient (same as Stun but also ends if target takes damage) or Knock Back to enemies in range of the AoE damage effect when Blazing Shield explodes.

Change the Spear Wall passive to add a 10% chance to inflict Minor Maim (15% reduction in target's outgoing damage) for 8 seconds on an enemy whose melee attack has been blocked. [Helps make more of Blocking with the increased cost in 1.6 and the removal of Stamina Regeneration while Blocking in 2.1.]

For the Balanced Warrior passive, as others have mentioned, staffs haven't used Weapon Damage in a looong time. Have it include Spell Damage in the 3%/6% bonus as well while including Physical Damage in the 1000/2000 resist bonus.

Radial Sweep (Ultimate):

The Empowering Sweep morph works for being tanky in PvE on large pulls because of the damage reduction, so I use it when fighting large groups of mobs while solo adventuring. I just collect them and use Empowering Sweep, Blazing Shield, Puncturing Sweep. You can go all day like that because of the low ult cost with as many trash mobs as you want, the more enemies the better. I wouldn't use it in PvP. It also works if you're an actual tank in group play.

Crescent Sweep is meant to be a small burst+dot focusing on enemies in front of the player (33% more damage to enemies in front of the caster on the initial hit). It's more like a really strong AoE regular skill than an ultimate but that is probably tied to it being relatively cheap. Adding in something like a debuff to those caught in the +33% strike would be nice though and might make it better for PvP as an opening hit. Either major breach (significantly reduced spell resistance) since it does magicka damage or both minor breach+minor fracture (moderately reduced spell + physical resistance) would be nice. Just pop Cresent, hit your morph of Puncturing Strikes, and enjoy. Either that or up the damage on the initial hit to those standing in the frontal cone area of effect to 50%.

DAWN'S WRATH

Make all spell projectiles in the Dawn's Wrath skill line -- Sun Fire and its morphs along with Solar Flare and its morph Dark Flare -- unable to be Dodged. Target(s) can still Block the projectiles to reduce damage taken, Reflect the projectiles, or Absorb the projectiles. [Dark Flare's cast time and slow travel speed would be balanced by the "no Dodge" effect. This would not effect PvE at all as most mobs don't dodge, but it would make the skill more useful in PvP. The target and nearby enemies would still receive Major Defile if it is Reflected.]

Replace Major Prophecy for Vampire's Bane (increase caster's Spell Critical chance by 10%) with Major Breach (lower target's Spell Resistance by 5120) to make the DoT more effective. [Many players already slot Mage Light or get Major Prophecy from a potion.]

Reclassify Eclipse and its morphs as non-CC abilities that cannot be removed by Break Free. They could still be cleansed/purged. Increase the bonus damage for Unstable Core to 50% or 60% (at least). Failing that, double or triple the damage done by the base ability and morphs when someone breaks out of the bubble in order to make up for wasting magicka in order to give them instant CC immunity. Make them choose between taking real damage or waiting it out (and taking normal "end of ability" damage). If it's going to be a "one target at a time" skill make it worth it.

Add "healing effect increased up to 20% based on your current magicka" to Radiant Glory.

Change the Enduring Rays passive to only increase the length of Nova, Sun Fire, and Eclipse. The Focused Healing and Light Weaver passives from the Restoring Light skill line only affect the ultimate and two active skills, so why not keep the boost to the skills that benefit from lasting longer and un-nerf those that do not?

Nova (Ultimate): Drop the cost to the 200-220 range.

RESTORING LIGHT

The Healing Ritual ability has always been in need of something, but the changes to it haven't really made it much better or worse. It does great healing, but the immobility, two second cast time, and ten meter radius in exchange for that healing is a bit much on the offset side of the scales. Increase the interval before the delayed heal of Lingering Ritual to 10 or 12 seconds and give those in the 10 meter radius who receive the initial cast Minor Vitality (+8% healing received) until that extra heal ticks. Add Major Mending (30% health recovery), for the caster only, to Ritual of Rebirth.

Have the Light Weaver passive grant 8 ultimate, not 2, when allies under 60% health are affected by Healing Ritual. Even if players spam it, there is little chance of exploiting given the limited range and immobility while casting. Besides, cheap ultimates are cheap, so it doesn't matter if you charge them a bit faster. And getting to the costlier ultimates faster makes Healing Ritual more appealing, which is a good thing.

Rite of Passage (Ultimate): I rarely see either morph of this ability used outside of PvE. Sometimes I and some healer Templars will use Remembrance in group PvE play for bosses that have high damage phases, while others use Practiced Incantation and its slightly longer channel time (an extra two seconds). I personally don't find the extra two seconds for Incantation a good trade for the damage reduction, but that's a matter of preference and some favor it. Perhaps that morph could be altered to be the PvP-preferred version. For example, by extending the caster's immunity to crowd control effect to the allies being healed for the duration of the ability.

k2blader

Islyn wrote: »

My take on Templars: just stop crying. Seriously.

(No offence to joy division because tldr

A Templar

I think the OP is one of the more/most reasonable players who posts on the forums. I may not always agree with his/her opinions, but as someone who doesn't play a templar I totally appreciate how the 3rd paragraph sets the tone of his post. It tells me: this is not a typical templar cry thread-- in fact, it isn't a cry thread. (Thank God!)

Mrs_Quietus

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Mrs_Quietus wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Baphomet wrote: »

Radiant oppression has actually been nerfed so much (4-5 times) that even in execute range its dps hardly exceeds spamming dark flare or sweeps. That's not quite what an execute is about - and one can't really argue that flare or sweeps are OP either, so there's room for improvement there.

Sun shield is another "must fix" asap because it's been so underpowered since 1.6.
More absorbtion, longer duration and higher (return) damage - it's really that simple.

Channeled focus should regenerate magicka as default. Then one morph should empower healing, the other one should give major expedition.

Sun fire should have higher impact damage and a weaker DoT damage.

I like that suggested channeled focus!

IMHO I think Templars have great magic/stam sustain (I have never had problems managing stats, just slot repentance and you're good). I also don't think they need a buff to heals as they already have the best heals in the game (I hit 19k BOL crits regualarly on my healer, I would start to feel bad if i could empower that even more). Unless throwing down a focus empowers ALL heals, that way stamplars can utilize it (though it would be better for the restoring light tree passives to just apply to all heals).

Templars do have the best heals but yes, we need a way to get Stamplars to actually heal themselves, because Stamplar is hurting on the self protection front with respect to other classes.

Agreed

zyk

I'd like to see a group of experienced players rank--as objectively as possible--every class ability in the game. This should be done from both the perspective of Magicka/Stamina and PVE/PVP builds. Really, that should be the first step in any balance discussion.

All classes have shortcomings to balance strengths. So yes, Templars do have shortcomings. Are they disproportionate to the strengths of the class? From my POV, no. But who is to say without a comprehensive ranking of class abilities?

SCinsight

My thoughts exactly on most topics you covered. Well done sir, well done.

Gunphu

After playing all classes I feel templars are the most limited in its roll.

Balanced warrior should work on spell and weapon damage, blazing shield needs to be reworked, no burst damage ultimate, worst CCs of all classes/specs, worst single target or aoe DPS of all classes/specs.

People keep saying Templars are balanced. They themselves might be. But when compared to other classes side by side they are not. This makes them not balanced IMO and need of a few minor buffs.

bikerangelo

Great thoughts, mostly because I'd like to see more competitive magicka templars and be a bit more competitive myself. From what I've seen, most templar abilities encourage stationary strategies (i.e, Channeled Focus, Healing Ritual, Radiant Destruction), where you pretty much stand in an area of celestial healing and channel everything, while the channels hold you in a slow motion walk. It's slightly frustrating when lots of other classes have reliable gap closers, lots of mobility, and great defense, while templars have very reactive abilities that don't necessarily benefit them when overwhelmed by burst dps or 2 or more stam builds with even more burst and better CC's. Here are my minor tweak suggestions:

Blazing Shield: Either one of these two changes would be great: Scale off max resource, or last 20 seconds. Also, a stun when it explodes would be great, so long as you remove the knockback from Puncturing Sweep and change it to an interrupt. If it scales off max resource, Stam builds can use this as an added defense.

Blazing Spear: If you're going to nerf the damage (thanks for that, @ZOS_BrianWheeler), at least make it a multi target CC or even a soft CC. The fact that you guys thought it did more damage than originally intended is hilarious.

Toppling Charge: make it function properly. Even after wasting a potion, it still won't activate at times.

Channeled Focus: The stationary rune is fine for PvE, but leaving a trail of golden glowing circles in the sewers is a huge pain. Please modify this into a version of lightning form (without the major expedition, or with it, your call), just to be a bit more mobile with 15 seconds of better defensive stats than just 8.

Dark Flare: Someone mentioned making this undodgable. Please no. Just shorten the cast time or travel time of the projectile. If you can dodge Focused Aim, then you can dodge a Dark Flare (thanks Patches), but Dark flare takes longer to cast and travel than Focused Aim, and hits for around 3k-4k less.

Repentence: Please make this restore Magicka as well. This ability alone has tempted me far too often to respec to stamina. If anything, this ability is a reward for killing something, so make it actually rewarding for magicka temps.

Breath of Life: Sure, it's annoying when people spam this in PvP, making it hard to actually kill them, but please don't nerf this ability. This is a templar's bread and butter in PvE group dungeons. I really don't want any changes made to this, but I hear lots of people complain about it and fear it might get nerfed like every other templar ability. Leave it be, ZOS.

Radiant Oppression: Make it undodgable, yet purgable. And remove the self inflicted snare, it's pointless and is difficult to execute when other players are using line of sight to avoid this and the ability slows you to a toad-like speed. Plus I think running at full speed while channeling this would look hilarious.

Aside from that, please go through the passives and check for imbalances (the irony of Balanced Warrior is killing me, FIX IT). With full willpower jewelry, 5 Julianos, 3 Torug's and 1 Molag Kena, I hit 1994 spell damage with a Resto equipped. A Restoration staff. The Templar's Primary healing tool. That is broken and very upsetting. My v3 sorc sits at 2.2k spell damage with a resto staff equipped with lower spec gear. Does this fall into the class imbalance section?
Again, great post Joy, you actually wrecked me yesterday with an 11k Radiant Oppression at Chalman. Keep up the petitions!

Mrs_Quietus

Blazing Shield: Either one of these two changes would be great: Scale off max resource, or last 20 seconds. Also, a stun when it explodes would be great, so long as you remove the knockback from Puncturing Sweep and change it to an interrupt. If it scales off max resource, Stam builds can use this as an added defense.

I love this suggestion of adding a stun, or even aoe knockback, when blazing shield expires.

blabafat

Pretty sure someone made a post about burning light only proccing per jab cast, not per jab. Should definitely have a chance to proc per jab if the chance remains the same.

dodgehopper_ESO

tinythinker wrote: »

Nice write-up and follow-up. I keep tinkering with my own suggestions for tweaks and little fixes for Templar as well, a list which grows slowly over time. I, too, would love to have Blinding Flashes back, but the odds of that seem astronomically low.

On the off chance Wrobel or someone from his team reads this thread, or, at the very least, as something for other players who run Templars to look at...

AEDRIC SPEAR

Replace the Knockback on Puncturing Strikes and its morphs with a Stun (target can't move or use abilities until effect ends or they Break Free) or pair the Knockback with Concussion (target deals 10% less damage for the duration of the effect or until they Break Free). This gives an opening for another ability or weapon attack rather than just spam, spam, spam, spam...

Give a 15% base damage increase to Piercing Javelin and its morphs rather than 10% only to the Aurora Javelin morph; increase the range of the Aurora Javelin morph from 20 to 25 meters, increase the travel speed of the projectile to compensate for the longer distance, and boost the extra damage based on distance to a max of 60%.

Increase shield strength to 40% of caster's health for Sun Shield and its morphs. Double the damage on activation for Radiant Aura while either Stunning or Knocking Back those caught in the blast of the activation. Add Disorient (same as Stun but also ends if target takes damage) or Knock Back to enemies in range of the AoE damage effect when Blazing Shield explodes.

Change the Spear Wall passive to add a 10% chance to inflict Minor Maim (15% reduction in target's outgoing damage) for 8 seconds on an enemy whose melee attack has been blocked. [Helps make more of Blocking with the increased cost in 1.6 and the removal of Stamina Regeneration while Blocking in 2.1.]

For the Balanced Warrior passive, as others have mentioned, staffs haven't used Weapon Damage in a looong time. Drop the extra damage from 3%/6% to 2%/4% and have it include Spell Damage as well while including Physical Damage in the 1000/2000 resist bonus.

Radial Sweep (Ultimate):

The Empowering Sweep morph works for being tanky in PvE on large pulls because of the damage reduction, so I use it when fighting large groups of mobs while solo adventuring. I just collect them and use Empowering Sweep, Blazing Shield, Puncturing Sweep. You can go all day like that because of the low ult cost with as many trash mobs as you want, the more enemies the better. I wouldn't use it in PvP. It also works if you're an actual tank in group play.

Crescent Sweep is meant to be a small burst+dot focusing on enemies in front of the player (33% more damage to enemies in front of the caster on the initial hit). It's more like a really strong AoE regular skill than an ultimate but that is probably tied to it being relatively cheap. Adding in something like a debuff to those caught in the +33% strike would be nice though and might make it better for PvP as an opening hit. Either major breach (significantly reduced spell resistance) since it does magicka damage or both minor breach+minor fracture (moderately reduced spell + physical resistance) would be nice. Just pop Cresent, hit your morph of Puncturing Strikes, and enjoy. Either that or up the damage on the initial hit to those standing in the frontal cone area of effect to 50%.

DAWN'S WRATH

Make all spell projectiles in the Dawn's Wrath skill line -- Sun Fire and its morphs along with Solar Flare and its morph Dark Flare -- unable to be Dodged. Target(s) can still Block the projectiles to reduce damage taken, Reflect the projectiles, or Absorb the projectiles. [Dark Flare's cast time and slow travel speed would be balanced by the "no Dodge" effect. This would not effect PvE at all as most mobs don't dodge, but it would make the skill more useful in PvP. The target and nearby enemies would still receive Major Defile if it is Reflected.]

Replace Major Prophecy for Vampire's Bane (increase caster's Spell Critical chance by 10%) with Major Breach (lower target's Spell Resistance by 5120) to make the DoT more effective. [Many players already slot Mage Light or get Major Prophecy from a potion.]

Reclassify Eclipse and its morphs as non-CC abilities that cannot be removed by Break Free. They could still be cleansed/purged. Increase the bonus damage for Unstable Core to 50% or 60% (at least). Failing that, double or triple the damage done by the base ability and morphs when someone breaks out of the bubble in order to make up for wasting magicka in order to give them instant CC immunity. Make them choose between taking real damage or waiting it out (and taking normal "end of ability" damage). If it's going to be a "one target at a time" skill make it worth it.

Add "healing effect increased up to 20% based on your current magicka" to Radiant Glory.

Change the Enduring Rays passive to only increase the length of Nova, Sun Fire, and Eclipse. The Focused Healing and Light Weaver passives from the Restoring Light skill line only affect the ultimate and two active skills, so why not keep the boost to the skills that benefit from lasting longer and un-nerf those that do not?

Nova (Ultimate): Drop the cost to the 200-220 range.

RESTORING LIGHT

The Healing Ritual ability has always been in need of something, but the changes to it haven't really made it much better or worse. It does great healing, but the immobility, two second cast time, and ten meter radius in exchange for that healing is a bit much on the offset side of the scales. Increase the interval before the delayed heal of Lingering Ritual to 10 or 12 seconds and give those in the 10 meter radius who receive the initial cast Minor Vitality (+8% healing received) until that extra heal ticks. Add Major Mending (30% health recovery), for the caster only, to Ritual of Rebirth.

Have the Light Weaver passive grant 8 ultimate, not 2, when allies under 60% health are affected by Healing Ritual. Even if players spam it, there is little chance of exploiting given the limited range and immobility while casting. Besides, cheap ultimates are cheap, so it doesn't matter if you charge them a bit faster. And getting to the costlier ultimates faster makes Healing Ritual more appealing, which is a good thing.

Rite of Passage (Ultimate): I rarely see either morph of this ability used outside of PvE. Sometimes I and some healer Templars will use Remembrance in group PvE play for bosses that have high damage phases, while others use Practiced Incantation and its slightly longer channel time (an extra two seconds). I personally don't find the extra two seconds for Incantation a good trade for the damage reduction, but that's a matter of preference and some favor it. Perhaps that morph could be altered to be the PvP-preferred version. For example, by extending the caster's immunity to crowd control effect to the allies being healed for the duration of the ability.

Your suggestion for Balanced Warrior is bad. Stamplar already has some major flaws, please don't gut them further. I want the Crusader to live on. Furthermore, along with all the great synergies that Sorcerer has, they can already easily exceed the weapon damage bonus we get from Balanced Warrior. Do you really want them to be even better than they are now? I personally think we should get blinding flashes back and I'm fine with balanced warrior giving an equal spell bonus as it grants weapon bonus - I do not think it should be reduced though. Disintegrate is also better than Burning Light because it is A) Universal to all lightning effects and Actually functions like the tooltip says. Frankly I'd like to see Burning Light to become less crappy. Backlash could also seriously use some love. Its the only Dawn Wrath ability worth slotting as a Stamina Temp, and even then it is debatable (I realize Eclipse has some niche uses).

Please bear in mind that for stamina builds the choices are a lot more limited than it seems. Binding Javelin & Biting Jabs are good but they can also be replaced with weapon skills. Binding javelin is Templar's best single target cc, and it is not as good as many out of class options, and not significantly better than wrecking blow apart from range. (One could argue that Blazing Spear is a single target cc but in its current state is a weak aoe dot and a highly telegraphed single target cc that shares cd with Javelin. Biting Jabs is better than flurry, but not greatly so and both skills fall prey to being an easily avoidable channel for much of the dps of the skill. Biting Jabs is also treated as a hard cc despite a nonexistent cc built in at the end (which means you have to use a real cc first to make use of the skill properly). Next we have Repentance (to get our passive regen, and corpse regen), Rune Focus (armor bonus), Cleansing Ritual (to purge), Backlash (to use dawn's wrath passives if you care to), and Eclipse (which puts everything on cc, and is very specific to duelling). These are the only useful skills in a Stamina Templar's repertoire, and much of these are very much 'take it or leave it'. If they buffed Sun Shield it might be useful for a Stamplar. The ultimates can be used to soak up some passive shortcomings (like empowering sweep if you want your aedric spear passives on a bar that doesn't use spear).

To Sum up this is the Stamplar Class Skill Toolkit: Binding Javelin, Biting Jabs (both of which are weapon skill opportunity cost, eg: steel tornado, wrecking blow, executioner), Repentance, Rune Focus, Cleansing Ritual, Backlash. Cramming all of that in leaves little room for things like Vigor/Rally, and Templars get the least mileage out of these two skills. In short: If you're getting beat by a Stamplar, you'd get beat even faster by another Stamina build.

tinythinker

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Nice write-up and follow-up. I keep tinkering with my own suggestions for tweaks and little fixes for Templar as well, a list which grows slowly over time. I, too, would love to have Blinding Flashes back, but the odds of that seem astronomically low.

On the off chance Wrobel or someone from his team reads this thread, or, at the very least, as something for other players who run Templars to look at...

AEDRIC SPEAR

Replace the Knockback on Puncturing Strikes and its morphs with a Stun (target can't move or use abilities until effect ends or they Break Free) or pair the Knockback with Concussion (target deals 10% less damage for the duration of the effect or until they Break Free). This gives an opening for another ability or weapon attack rather than just spam, spam, spam, spam...

Give a 15% base damage increase to Piercing Javelin and its morphs rather than 10% only to the Aurora Javelin morph; increase the range of the Aurora Javelin morph from 20 to 25 meters, increase the travel speed of the projectile to compensate for the longer distance, and boost the extra damage based on distance to a max of 60%.

Increase shield strength to 40% of caster's health for Sun Shield and its morphs. Double the damage on activation for Radiant Aura while either Stunning or Knocking Back those caught in the blast of the activation. Add Disorient (same as Stun but also ends if target takes damage) or Knock Back to enemies in range of the AoE damage effect when Blazing Shield explodes.

Change the Spear Wall passive to add a 10% chance to inflict Minor Maim (15% reduction in target's outgoing damage) for 8 seconds on an enemy whose melee attack has been blocked. [Helps make more of Blocking with the increased cost in 1.6 and the removal of Stamina Regeneration while Blocking in 2.1.]

For the Balanced Warrior passive, as others have mentioned, staffs haven't used Weapon Damage in a looong time. Drop the extra damage from 3%/6% to 2%/4% and have it include Spell Damage as well while including Physical Damage in the 1000/2000 resist bonus.

Radial Sweep (Ultimate):

The Empowering Sweep morph works for being tanky in PvE on large pulls because of the damage reduction, so I use it when fighting large groups of mobs while solo adventuring. I just collect them and use Empowering Sweep, Blazing Shield, Puncturing Sweep. You can go all day like that because of the low ult cost with as many trash mobs as you want, the more enemies the better. I wouldn't use it in PvP. It also works if you're an actual tank in group play.

Crescent Sweep is meant to be a small burst+dot focusing on enemies in front of the player (33% more damage to enemies in front of the caster on the initial hit). It's more like a really strong AoE regular skill than an ultimate but that is probably tied to it being relatively cheap. Adding in something like a debuff to those caught in the +33% strike would be nice though and might make it better for PvP as an opening hit. Either major breach (significantly reduced spell resistance) since it does magicka damage or both minor breach+minor fracture (moderately reduced spell + physical resistance) would be nice. Just pop Cresent, hit your morph of Puncturing Strikes, and enjoy. Either that or up the damage on the initial hit to those standing in the frontal cone area of effect to 50%.

DAWN'S WRATH

Make all spell projectiles in the Dawn's Wrath skill line -- Sun Fire and its morphs along with Solar Flare and its morph Dark Flare -- unable to be Dodged. Target(s) can still Block the projectiles to reduce damage taken, Reflect the projectiles, or Absorb the projectiles. [Dark Flare's cast time and slow travel speed would be balanced by the "no Dodge" effect. This would not effect PvE at all as most mobs don't dodge, but it would make the skill more useful in PvP. The target and nearby enemies would still receive Major Defile if it is Reflected.]

Replace Major Prophecy for Vampire's Bane (increase caster's Spell Critical chance by 10%) with Major Breach (lower target's Spell Resistance by 5120) to make the DoT more effective. [Many players already slot Mage Light or get Major Prophecy from a potion.]

Reclassify Eclipse and its morphs as non-CC abilities that cannot be removed by Break Free. They could still be cleansed/purged. Increase the bonus damage for Unstable Core to 50% or 60% (at least). Failing that, double or triple the damage done by the base ability and morphs when someone breaks out of the bubble in order to make up for wasting magicka in order to give them instant CC immunity. Make them choose between taking real damage or waiting it out (and taking normal "end of ability" damage). If it's going to be a "one target at a time" skill make it worth it.

Add "healing effect increased up to 20% based on your current magicka" to Radiant Glory.

Change the Enduring Rays passive to only increase the length of Nova, Sun Fire, and Eclipse. The Focused Healing and Light Weaver passives from the Restoring Light skill line only affect the ultimate and two active skills, so why not keep the boost to the skills that benefit from lasting longer and un-nerf those that do not?

Nova (Ultimate): Drop the cost to the 200-220 range.

RESTORING LIGHT

The Healing Ritual ability has always been in need of something, but the changes to it haven't really made it much better or worse. It does great healing, but the immobility, two second cast time, and ten meter radius in exchange for that healing is a bit much on the offset side of the scales. Increase the interval before the delayed heal of Lingering Ritual to 10 or 12 seconds and give those in the 10 meter radius who receive the initial cast Minor Vitality (+8% healing received) until that extra heal ticks. Add Major Mending (30% health recovery), for the caster only, to Ritual of Rebirth.

Have the Light Weaver passive grant 8 ultimate, not 2, when allies under 60% health are affected by Healing Ritual. Even if players spam it, there is little chance of exploiting given the limited range and immobility while casting. Besides, cheap ultimates are cheap, so it doesn't matter if you charge them a bit faster. And getting to the costlier ultimates faster makes Healing Ritual more appealing, which is a good thing.

Rite of Passage (Ultimate): I rarely see either morph of this ability used outside of PvE. Sometimes I and some healer Templars will use Remembrance in group PvE play for bosses that have high damage phases, while others use Practiced Incantation and its slightly longer channel time (an extra two seconds). I personally don't find the extra two seconds for Incantation a good trade for the damage reduction, but that's a matter of preference and some favor it. Perhaps that morph could be altered to be the PvP-preferred version. For example, by extending the caster's immunity to crowd control effect to the allies being healed for the duration of the ability.

I personally think we should get blinding flashes back and I'm fine with balanced warrior giving an equal spell bonus as it grants weapon bonus - I do not think it should be reduced though. Disintegrate is also better than Burning Light because it is A) Universal to all lightning effects and Actually functions like the tooltip says. Frankly I'd like to see Burning Light to become less crappy.

I only lowered the values for that passive because I doubted ZOS would just *give* us a buff like adding in an equal amount of spell damage. Then again, these are just ideas being shared among players, and getting no dev attention, so what the heck Changed it back to just adding with no subtracting.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Please bear in mind that for stamina builds the choices are a lot more limited than it seems. Binding Javelin & Biting Jabs are good but they can also be replaced with weapon skills. Backlash could also seriously use some love. Its the only Dawn Wrath ability worth slotting as a Stamina Temp, and even then it is debatable (I realize Eclipse has some niche uses). Binding javelin is Templar's best single target cc, and it is not as good as many out of class options, and not significantly better than wrecking blow apart from range.

Yeah, I have an Argonian magicka Templar and a Redguard stamina Templar. Like most stam builds the latter mostly uses weapon and Fighter's Guild skills.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

One could argue that Blazing Spear is a single target cc but in its current state is a weak aoe dot and a highly telegraphed single target cc that shares cd with Javelin. Biting Jabs is better than flurry, but not greatly so and both skills fall prey to being an easily avoidable channel for much of the dps of the skill. Biting Jabs is also treated as a hard cc despite a nonexistent cc built in at the end (which means you have to use a real cc first to make use of the skill properly). Next we have Repentance (to get our passive regen, and corpse regen), Rune Focus (armor bonus), Cleansing Ritual (to purge), Backlash (to use dawn's wrath passives if you care to), and Eclipse (which puts everything on cc, and is very specific to duelling). These are the only useful skills in a Stamina Templar's repertoire, and much of these are very much 'take it or leave it'. If they buffed Sun Shield it might be useful for a Stamplar. The ultimates can be used to soak up some passive shortcomings (like empowering sweep if you want your aedric spear passives on a bar that doesn't use spear).

And I think my proposed changes to Eclipse+morphs and Puncturing Strikes+morphs and Sun Shield+morphs would make them even more useful to any Templar build.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

To Sum up this is the Stamplar Class Skill Toolkit: Binding Javelin, Biting Jabs (both of which are weapon skill opportunity cost, eg: steel tornado, wrecking blow, executioner), Repentance, Rune Focus, Cleansing Ritual, Backlash. Cramming all of that in leaves little room for things like Vigor/Rally, and Templars get the least mileage out of these two skills. In short: If you're getting beat by a Stamplar, you'd get beat even faster by another Stamina build.

Yeah, but the current logic is that stam users get four weapon skill lines to choose from that use stam as opposed to two magicka-based weapon skill lines, so there are fewer stam morphs in class skill lines. I don't mind if ZOS adds a a couple more stam options, my list of suggestions is simply to fix the current situation in terms of broken, under-performing, or outdated abilities. That itself might make for more appealing options for different builds (as mentioned just above)

Kas

great post. some gems are hidden bewteen other gems ^^ (or other thing everybody just knows anyway)

especially

Less reliance on barrier, more dependence on actual healing with efficient healing builds.

will be very relevant if the changed hit and cause unpurgeable meatbags.

on the other side, though. maybe this will finally lower the amount of templars in cyrodiil to relfect the actual balance and thus make the issues appearent to those that only look at superficial stats.

Brrrofski

I love my templar in pvp.

But, I think being vamp helps.

Templars big weakness is lack of mobility and terrible ultimates (for pvp).

Being vamp gives me a good ultimate and mobility. On top of that, the undying passive from vamp, income with alternating between elusive mist and bol makes me incredibly tanky.

If I wasn't vamp, I don't know how much I'd enjoy it to be honest

Oh, and fix toppling charge. It doesn't work 90% of the time currently

Corzz

Pretty much agree with everything blab and akinos has said, read through most of this unsure if the jabs bug where it's not doing correct damage to shields has been mentioned, anyway the biggest issue is the bugs and the fact jabs gives cc immunity meaning you cant time your burst

Minno

Mrs_Quietus wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Baphomet wrote: »

Radiant oppression has actually been nerfed so much (4-5 times) that even in execute range its dps hardly exceeds spamming dark flare or sweeps. That's not quite what an execute is about - and one can't really argue that flare or sweeps are OP either, so there's room for improvement there.

Sun shield is another "must fix" asap because it's been so underpowered since 1.6.
More absorbtion, longer duration and higher (return) damage - it's really that simple.

Channeled focus should regenerate magicka as default. Then one morph should empower healing, the other one should give major expedition.

Sun fire should have higher impact damage and a weaker DoT damage.

I like that suggested channeled focus!

IMHO I think Templars have great magic/stam sustain (I have never had problems managing stats, just slot repentance and you're good). I also don't think they need a buff to heals as they already have the best heals in the game (I hit 19k BOL crits regualarly on my healer, I would start to feel bad if i could empower that even more). Unless throwing down a focus empowers ALL heals, that way stamplars can utilize it (though it would be better for the restoring light tree passives to just apply to all heals).

In my defense, my comment really liked channeled focus allowing one morph to give major expedition. Lol

Restoring light passives give extra healing to you if you are in either focus or puryfing ritual circle. "Increases the healing effects from your Restoring Light abilities by 30% to allies standing in an areas of protection created by Rite of Passage, Cleansing Ritual and Rune Focus".

Unless they changed it.

FENGRUSH

This is probably a thread for the combat & character mechanics subforum where all good intentioned threads go to die in a 'productive discussion' with @wrobel.

With that said, please nerf BoL asap. Thank you!

bikerangelo

FENGRUSH wrote: »

This is probably a thread for the combat & character mechanics subforum where all good intentioned threads go to die in a 'productive discussion' with @wrobel.

With that said, please nerf BoL asap. Thank you!

Please no. I'm all for an exponential cost increase with spamming the ability (or any ability for that matter) only in Cyrodiil, but that would absolutely destroy PvE dungeon runs.
Also, I think the primary point Joy was making was the affect Templars have on PvP in the Alliance War, so while it's pretty exclusive to the Templar mechanics and abilities, it also compares them to other classes with regards to competitive PvP and group dynamics.
But please don't nerf BoL, please don't.

FENGRUSH

bikerangelo wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

This is probably a thread for the combat & character mechanics subforum where all good intentioned threads go to die in a 'productive discussion' with @wrobel.

With that said, please nerf BoL asap. Thank you!

Please no. I'm all for an exponential cost increase with spamming the ability (or any ability for that matter) only in Cyrodiil, but that would absolutely destroy PvE dungeon runs.
Also, I think the primary point Joy was making was the affect Templars have on PvP in the Alliance War, so while it's pretty exclusive to the Templar mechanics and abilities, it also compares them to other classes with regards to competitive PvP and group dynamics.
But please don't nerf BoL, please don't.

NERF IT NOW!

BoL spam 2 fast 2 strong.

bikerangelo

FENGRUSH wrote: »

bikerangelo wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

This is probably a thread for the combat & character mechanics subforum where all good intentioned threads go to die in a 'productive discussion' with @wrobel.

With that said, please nerf BoL asap. Thank you!

Please no. I'm all for an exponential cost increase with spamming the ability (or any ability for that matter) only in Cyrodiil, but that would absolutely destroy PvE dungeon runs.
Also, I think the primary point Joy was making was the affect Templars have on PvP in the Alliance War, so while it's pretty exclusive to the Templar mechanics and abilities, it also compares them to other classes with regards to competitive PvP and group dynamics.
But please don't nerf BoL, please don't.

NERF IT NOW!

BoL spam 2 fast 2 strong.

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/4ea1868dd09aa9e3f329aa8d/t/5390da61e4b049a23aec9b44/1402002059377/

tplink3r1

Mumyo wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Good post. Blinding Flashes and Blazing Shield back please!
I thought I knew Templar, was wrong. The passive that nerfs Backlash and other morph, never even realised until now!

blinding flashes would be way too strong in this state of the game. That would make every melee totally chanceless against u.

Too strong with the 5 meters range it had? I don't think so.

dodgehopper_ESO

FENGRUSH wrote: »

bikerangelo wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

This is probably a thread for the combat & character mechanics subforum where all good intentioned threads go to die in a 'productive discussion' with @wrobel.

With that said, please nerf BoL asap. Thank you!

Please no. I'm all for an exponential cost increase with spamming the ability (or any ability for that matter) only in Cyrodiil, but that would absolutely destroy PvE dungeon runs.
Also, I think the primary point Joy was making was the affect Templars have on PvP in the Alliance War, so while it's pretty exclusive to the Templar mechanics and abilities, it also compares them to other classes with regards to competitive PvP and group dynamics.
But please don't nerf BoL, please don't.

NERF IT NOW!

BoL spam 2 fast 2 strong.

I could live with that... if they make everything else on Templar WAY WAY WAY better. Otherwise templar will be a 100% dead class that only a few insane diehards will play. It might not be so bad though, because honestly I'm tired of Templar being such a clunky class purely because of BoL. The point is though, that such a change would require a complete overhaul of Templars.

dodgehopper_ESO

tinythinker wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Nice write-up and follow-up. I keep tinkering with my own suggestions for tweaks and little fixes for Templar as well, a list which grows slowly over time. I, too, would love to have Blinding Flashes back, but the odds of that seem astronomically low.

On the off chance Wrobel or someone from his team reads this thread, or, at the very least, as something for other players who run Templars to look at...

AEDRIC SPEAR

Replace the Knockback on Puncturing Strikes and its morphs with a Stun (target can't move or use abilities until effect ends or they Break Free) or pair the Knockback with Concussion (target deals 10% less damage for the duration of the effect or until they Break Free). This gives an opening for another ability or weapon attack rather than just spam, spam, spam, spam...

Give a 15% base damage increase to Piercing Javelin and its morphs rather than 10% only to the Aurora Javelin morph; increase the range of the Aurora Javelin morph from 20 to 25 meters, increase the travel speed of the projectile to compensate for the longer distance, and boost the extra damage based on distance to a max of 60%.

Increase shield strength to 40% of caster's health for Sun Shield and its morphs. Double the damage on activation for Radiant Aura while either Stunning or Knocking Back those caught in the blast of the activation. Add Disorient (same as Stun but also ends if target takes damage) or Knock Back to enemies in range of the AoE damage effect when Blazing Shield explodes.

Change the Spear Wall passive to add a 10% chance to inflict Minor Maim (15% reduction in target's outgoing damage) for 8 seconds on an enemy whose melee attack has been blocked. [Helps make more of Blocking with the increased cost in 1.6 and the removal of Stamina Regeneration while Blocking in 2.1.]

For the Balanced Warrior passive, as others have mentioned, staffs haven't used Weapon Damage in a looong time. Drop the extra damage from 3%/6% to 2%/4% and have it include Spell Damage as well while including Physical Damage in the 1000/2000 resist bonus.

Radial Sweep (Ultimate):

The Empowering Sweep morph works for being tanky in PvE on large pulls because of the damage reduction, so I use it when fighting large groups of mobs while solo adventuring. I just collect them and use Empowering Sweep, Blazing Shield, Puncturing Sweep. You can go all day like that because of the low ult cost with as many trash mobs as you want, the more enemies the better. I wouldn't use it in PvP. It also works if you're an actual tank in group play.

Crescent Sweep is meant to be a small burst+dot focusing on enemies in front of the player (33% more damage to enemies in front of the caster on the initial hit). It's more like a really strong AoE regular skill than an ultimate but that is probably tied to it being relatively cheap. Adding in something like a debuff to those caught in the +33% strike would be nice though and might make it better for PvP as an opening hit. Either major breach (significantly reduced spell resistance) since it does magicka damage or both minor breach+minor fracture (moderately reduced spell + physical resistance) would be nice. Just pop Cresent, hit your morph of Puncturing Strikes, and enjoy. Either that or up the damage on the initial hit to those standing in the frontal cone area of effect to 50%.

DAWN'S WRATH

Make all spell projectiles in the Dawn's Wrath skill line -- Sun Fire and its morphs along with Solar Flare and its morph Dark Flare -- unable to be Dodged. Target(s) can still Block the projectiles to reduce damage taken, Reflect the projectiles, or Absorb the projectiles. [Dark Flare's cast time and slow travel speed would be balanced by the "no Dodge" effect. This would not effect PvE at all as most mobs don't dodge, but it would make the skill more useful in PvP. The target and nearby enemies would still receive Major Defile if it is Reflected.]

Replace Major Prophecy for Vampire's Bane (increase caster's Spell Critical chance by 10%) with Major Breach (lower target's Spell Resistance by 5120) to make the DoT more effective. [Many players already slot Mage Light or get Major Prophecy from a potion.]

Reclassify Eclipse and its morphs as non-CC abilities that cannot be removed by Break Free. They could still be cleansed/purged. Increase the bonus damage for Unstable Core to 50% or 60% (at least). Failing that, double or triple the damage done by the base ability and morphs when someone breaks out of the bubble in order to make up for wasting magicka in order to give them instant CC immunity. Make them choose between taking real damage or waiting it out (and taking normal "end of ability" damage). If it's going to be a "one target at a time" skill make it worth it.

Add "healing effect increased up to 20% based on your current magicka" to Radiant Glory.

Change the Enduring Rays passive to only increase the length of Nova, Sun Fire, and Eclipse. The Focused Healing and Light Weaver passives from the Restoring Light skill line only affect the ultimate and two active skills, so why not keep the boost to the skills that benefit from lasting longer and un-nerf those that do not?

Nova (Ultimate): Drop the cost to the 200-220 range.

RESTORING LIGHT

The Healing Ritual ability has always been in need of something, but the changes to it haven't really made it much better or worse. It does great healing, but the immobility, two second cast time, and ten meter radius in exchange for that healing is a bit much on the offset side of the scales. Increase the interval before the delayed heal of Lingering Ritual to 10 or 12 seconds and give those in the 10 meter radius who receive the initial cast Minor Vitality (+8% healing received) until that extra heal ticks. Add Major Mending (30% health recovery), for the caster only, to Ritual of Rebirth.

Have the Light Weaver passive grant 8 ultimate, not 2, when allies under 60% health are affected by Healing Ritual. Even if players spam it, there is little chance of exploiting given the limited range and immobility while casting. Besides, cheap ultimates are cheap, so it doesn't matter if you charge them a bit faster. And getting to the costlier ultimates faster makes Healing Ritual more appealing, which is a good thing.

Rite of Passage (Ultimate): I rarely see either morph of this ability used outside of PvE. Sometimes I and some healer Templars will use Remembrance in group PvE play for bosses that have high damage phases, while others use Practiced Incantation and its slightly longer channel time (an extra two seconds). I personally don't find the extra two seconds for Incantation a good trade for the damage reduction, but that's a matter of preference and some favor it. Perhaps that morph could be altered to be the PvP-preferred version. For example, by extending the caster's immunity to crowd control effect to the allies being healed for the duration of the ability.

I personally think we should get blinding flashes back and I'm fine with balanced warrior giving an equal spell bonus as it grants weapon bonus - I do not think it should be reduced though. Disintegrate is also better than Burning Light because it is A) Universal to all lightning effects and Actually functions like the tooltip says. Frankly I'd like to see Burning Light to become less crappy.

I only lowered the values for that passive because I doubted ZOS would just *give* us a buff like adding in an equal amount of spell damage. Then again, these are just ideas being shared among players, and getting no dev attention, so what the heck Changed it back to just adding with no subtracting.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Please bear in mind that for stamina builds the choices are a lot more limited than it seems. Binding Javelin & Biting Jabs are good but they can also be replaced with weapon skills. Backlash could also seriously use some love. Its the only Dawn Wrath ability worth slotting as a Stamina Temp, and even then it is debatable (I realize Eclipse has some niche uses). Binding javelin is Templar's best single target cc, and it is not as good as many out of class options, and not significantly better than wrecking blow apart from range.

Yeah, I have an Argonian magicka Templar and a Redguard stamina Templar. Like most stam builds the latter mostly uses weapon and Fighter's Guild skills.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

One could argue that Blazing Spear is a single target cc but in its current state is a weak aoe dot and a highly telegraphed single target cc that shares cd with Javelin. Biting Jabs is better than flurry, but not greatly so and both skills fall prey to being an easily avoidable channel for much of the dps of the skill. Biting Jabs is also treated as a hard cc despite a nonexistent cc built in at the end (which means you have to use a real cc first to make use of the skill properly). Next we have Repentance (to get our passive regen, and corpse regen), Rune Focus (armor bonus), Cleansing Ritual (to purge), Backlash (to use dawn's wrath passives if you care to), and Eclipse (which puts everything on cc, and is very specific to duelling). These are the only useful skills in a Stamina Templar's repertoire, and much of these are very much 'take it or leave it'. If they buffed Sun Shield it might be useful for a Stamplar. The ultimates can be used to soak up some passive shortcomings (like empowering sweep if you want your aedric spear passives on a bar that doesn't use spear).

And I think my proposed changes to Eclipse+morphs and Puncturing Strikes+morphs and Sun Shield+morphs would make them even more useful to any Templar build.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

To Sum up this is the Stamplar Class Skill Toolkit: Binding Javelin, Biting Jabs (both of which are weapon skill opportunity cost, eg: steel tornado, wrecking blow, executioner), Repentance, Rune Focus, Cleansing Ritual, Backlash. Cramming all of that in leaves little room for things like Vigor/Rally, and Templars get the least mileage out of these two skills. In short: If you're getting beat by a Stamplar, you'd get beat even faster by another Stamina build.

Yeah, but the current logic is that stam users get four weapon skill lines to choose from that use stam as opposed to two magicka-based weapon skill lines, so there are fewer stam morphs in class skill lines. I don't mind if ZOS adds a a couple more stam options, my list of suggestions is simply to fix the current situation in terms of broken, under-performing, or outdated abilities. That itself might make for more appealing options for different builds (as mentioned just above)

I think what you had to say was great, don't get me wrong, I just wanted to point out the stamina-side issues. My point was simply that the Templar is very reliant on its passives, and the passives that link off of the actives I pointed out. If you gut balanced warrior, you really hurt the Stamina Templar badly. In fact gutting any of the aforementioned skills adversely effects the Stamina Templar. For whatever reason I find it a lot easier to make use of my class passives on a Sorc, Nb or DK for instance. I think you definitely have good ideas though, I was just focusing on my concerns about Balanced Warrior - its the most important passive a Stamplar has, along with the block one (which was heavily nerfed thanks to block changes), and really all the aedric ones (which require use of one aedric skill).

Dreyloch

Read thru most of this, and I do have a baby templar that I really haven't played for months. (he's only level 46 atm).

I think a lot of the fustrations that your showing here Joy are valid. I don't know if ZoS will address any of it. But I think the meta "ZoS" wants us to live with is this.... If your going to tank, your not going to do ANY damage. If your going to heal, your not going to do ANY damage. Specific to templars however, is the fact that in order to heal effectively your also giving up a ton of defense by having to wear light armor. Oh yeah, and if you want to do damage your NOT going have much defense.

Since I started playing this game I've wanted to find a build that was heavy armorish, or at least tanky enough to hold my own, and do some modest DPS. Can't be done. Sorry. Not possible. Least not on a DK (my main).

Your stuck with full medium (not great defense-wise) armor and duel wield or 2-hander. If you choose to go more defense it's mostly heavy armor but you lose TONS of DPS by doing it. I'm not even gonna beat the dead horse that is Magicka DK. It's close to just sub-atomic particles...it's been beaten so bad.

My point is, there's no happy medium. No mater what build or class your playing, your stuck with it's main role as the only smoothly working option. (or should I say smoother). Want to be a heavy wearing DK duel wielder? Pfft, Good luck.
Want to be a heavy wearing, healing templar? Yeah right, no chance. Want to be a DPS templar using mostly magicka abilites? Nope, take a hike.

Maybe it all boils down to how each armor type effects each class role and skills. That's the only thing standing out to me atm.

Bazeric

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

In short: If you're getting beat by a Stamplar, you'd get beat even faster by another Stamina build.

Shhhhh.... No don't say that.... I have to believe that my stamplar I am currently working is going to be effective and worth it.

The biggest troubles I am having right now with my stamplar is sustain. I even try to gain sustain by balancing werewolf on one bar and radiant aura on my other. However in combat my regen::cost seems worst than other classes I've tried. If I had time to test how effective my CP cost reduction and regen actually were, I feel I'd find a problem. Now that I am rolling with radiant aura I also realize that my potions are half as useful too.

- Now to talk about Templar class in general -

I'll start by commenting on FENGRUSH's nerf call because it relates to how the class is perceived.
Templars can spec into healing the way you spec into wrecking people's faces. You get upset that they can competitively heal your damage. I say of course they can because they have built themselves to do so the way you have built yourself to kill things. I consider two main reasons for this:

First is because they are lovely people who enjoy nothing more than helping the team by keeping them healthy. (Thanks to you fine people who choose this path PVP/PVE or otherwise.)

Second is because it is harder and takes more creativity for a Templar to be a DPS/tank roll than it is for the more popular NBs and Sorcs. Most people choose those classes to kill things, though I have a MagBlade that I have had get a 1:1 DPS/HPS in a group setting. If I want to be a healer with it I'm sure there is a fairly simple build that could achieve competitive healing.

Templars are the support class because it is the simplest for them to build for. So in a group you will find them doing just that. Other classes could but again people pick those classes to do other things even if they are capable of support.

You are great at solo/small group, but what we really need is a PVP arena so people can get their crazy/awesome fights simply and quickly. Mowing down PUGs of various skills and ability isn't the best way to find good fights, but it is good for entertainment.

FENGRUSH

Healing is a bit over the top - and certain heals more than others. None more than BoL. You dont need to spec into healing very much for BoL to be effective because of how many BoL you can throw out per second as compared to the damage of someone purely built into damage. This is the byproduct of the changes in nerfing damage and healing by 50%. Yes people dont get instantly killed, and I agree with that and appreciate it. But I dont agree with 1 templar keeping a guy alive whos laying on the ground not CC breaking because 'hes a healer'. Once you have 2-3 templars forget about it, youre simply waiting for them to slack and not heal.

Healing should be supplemental to survival, in the same way blocking, dodging, buffing and other factors should be. When someone can just lay helplessly on the ground or even someone is sitting there AFK being kept alive while a DPS rips everything he has into him - theres a problem with healing. Its primarily BoL spam and its rate of fire. When you have someone actually spec'd into healing with a good survival build, you have the result of the healing templar I play with... able to survive against 5-10 players beating on him for at least 2minutes with heal spam. Its a joke on both ends.

Jules

Joy Division for President.

manny254

As the game currently sits I think that stamina templar is by far the weakest stamina build. Especially for solo play

But you have jabs right?

Well essentially when you delve into it from a small scale perspective that is all templars really have over other classes. Currently with jabs being gimped vs shields the skill under preforms vs all other bread and butter dps skills. With the ttk changes getting a experienced player to allow you to hit them with it enough for a kill is very difficult. Especially when compared to surprise attack which will deal instant damage and will yield more dps over the course of a battle. Burning light has also received a nerf with a cap of one proc per jabs cast. Then of course templar ults are some of the worst for solo play and do not hold a candle to leap, teather, or death stroke.


So that is a bit of a matter of opinion, but lets look at some passives
So these are the passives templar gets that are relevant for this.

10% crit damage. 6% weapon damage. 4% stam cost reduction and 4% ulti reduction.
10% regen to all stats IF you slot repentance. These are the minor buffs so you can not stack them with other minor buffs.


So lets look at how nb passives are better in every single way.

They also receive 10% crit damage, but they also get bonuses to crit chance.
10% weapon power while invisible or stealth. This allows them to produce burst from stealth, cloak, or with clouding swarm.
Then last but not least NB gets a free 15% regen to all stats.
Unlike repentance you do not need to slot anything, and it is its own unique buff so you can still stack the minor buff from Relentless Focus.

Now lets look at sorcerer. Less raw damage, but much better sustain.

5% cost reduction, and 15% ult cost reduction.
10% base magic regen, and 20% health/stam regen with a Deadric Summoning skill slotted. Realistically this would be 1 or 2 skills, but it is double the regen of repentance with more choices.
2% weapon damage per sorc skill slotted. Realistically this would be max 2 or 3.

Now to DK.

DK receives 5% weapon damage from the class group buff, but for solo concerns this a buff they only receive.
They like all the other classes receive better sustain passives then templar. this mainly being battle roar and helping hands. (5% stamina per earthen heart ability cast).


So templar has the worst sustain of all stamina builds. It does not have top damage of stamina builds, and it has the least survivability. (Sorc and NB have an escape, and DK has the best self healing of a stamina build)

eliisra

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Healing should be supplemental to survival, in the same way blocking, dodging, buffing and other factors should be. When someone can just lay helplessly on the ground or even someone is sitting there AFK being kept alive while a DPS rips everything he has into him - theres a problem with healing. Its primarily BoL spam and its rate of fire. When you have someone actually spec'd into healing with a good survival build, you have the result of the healing templar I play with... able to survive against 5-10 players beating on him for at least 2minutes with heal spam. Its a joke on both ends.

From the guy that seems to spend 99% of his time farming clueless PvE scrubs and other low ranks in the sewers. Maybe you call it "wiping zergs" I dunno?

You can outplay 5-10 milkdrinker(that doesn't want to fight in the first place) on any class.

Against actual PvP'ers, all you need is two average stamina builds focusing a templar healer and rip. Doesn't matter how you build your character, you cant outheal/purge Wrecking Block + Surprise Attack spam. Especially without class shield and stamina management for block.

Fotm sorc wants templar nerfed even more, because "heals". Not remotely surprised. Would be best if there weren't any healers at all in PvP right, ruining your gaming experience? Just a bunch of burst build.

Minno

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Healing is a bit over the top - and certain heals more than others. None more than BoL. You dont need to spec into healing very much for BoL to be effective because of how many BoL you can throw out per second as compared to the damage of someone purely built into damage. This is the byproduct of the changes in nerfing damage and healing by 50%. Yes people dont get instantly killed, and I agree with that and appreciate it. But I dont agree with 1 templar keeping a guy alive whos laying on the ground not CC breaking because 'hes a healer'. Once you have 2-3 templars forget about it, youre simply waiting for them to slack and not heal.

Healing should be supplemental to survival, in the same way blocking, dodging, buffing and other factors should be. When someone can just lay helplessly on the ground or even someone is sitting there AFK being kept alive while a DPS rips everything he has into him - theres a problem with healing. Its primarily BoL spam and its rate of fire. When you have someone actually spec'd into healing with a good survival build, you have the result of the healing templar I play with... able to survive against 5-10 players beating on him for at least 2minutes with heal spam. Its a joke on both ends.

I'd say lets have ZOS address AOE caps first.
Then lets take a look at how healing relates to the dmg. If you can cause a dent in ball-groups with AOE cap removal, then we can see if BOL is overextending its role.

I'm just worried ZOS will over-nerf BOL to address a dmg system we want reviewed anyway. Not doing it in that order would cause a double nerf to templars and, besides DK, they don't deserve another nerf.

Also, if BOL gets a reduction, then we need a revision to how templars heal; honestly we need to protect the unique way/design intent. Currently I categorize Templar healing as "buff- debuff" healing. You pop focus+puryfing ritual then cast your heals to buff your output (BOL works wonders since it synergizes with Templar low health healing passive. Pop it at low health and it works like a healing execute.). You debuff players with dark flare, reduce Inc dmg with c-focus's armor boost, and players can purge effects away with purifying ritual. Healing ulti (despite its uselessness and bugs) can be used to reduce incoming dmg to entire party.

While I understand the hate for BOL, you'd be killing all templars with a direct nerf without looking at options to protect the way they heal against other classes/Resto staff.