Time to revisit the magicka dual-wielding Vs. staff debate.

Joy_Division

Staffs (and two-handed weapons in general) have always had the disadvantage on losing an extra armor set bonus. I do not understand why the designers made this a conscious decision. If the logic was that two-handed weapons were compensated for more damage, that does not hold true in this case.

Here is my one-handed axe:



Here is my two-handed staff:



This was not a big deal when the game had soft-caps and when weapon damage was segregated from spell damage. When 1.6 came out, theory crafters instantly recognized that dual swords gave more "spell" damage than a staff and gained an extra armor set bonus to boot (which invariably also meant more spell damage) - all without being reined in by soft-caps.

This format has been critiqued and asked many times on these forums and in ESO Live and the answer has always been the same: sword users are at greater risk and thus deserve a greater reward, staff users have the advantage of a ranged attack and easier ultimate regeneration. The "spellsword" archetype has also been cited as a reason for this format to stay.

To this I say the reasoning does not reflect the gameplay mechanics:

• Sword "users" do not necessarily put themselves at a greater risk because they get that bonus damage when they spam overload, curse, trapping web, etc. from 28 meters away
• Staff using templar biting jabs spammers NB ambushers actually do place themselves at risk without the same corresponding benefits
• Any random heal (hello structured entropy) with grant the same ultimate gain and thus negates the staff users alleged advantage
• I too think the "spellsword" archetype is cool - but why does this existence of this archetype mean I have to be less effective with a staff?

While this debate is cute, it has obscured the reality that the game has changed in a way that now gives too much of an advantage to dual swords over staffs.

When 1.6 came out, no champion points, low attribute points, and relatively modest spell damage meant dual sword users got a marginal benefit from using them. Let the min-maxers look silly holding two swords and firing range spells.

But now, many champion points, high attribute points (40K is now the standard!), and much higher spell damage means all those percentage multipliers to raw damage, to spell/weapon power, and critical hits make the damage from a dual wielder's spells such as dark flare now noticeably higher than a staff users:

With Staff:



With Swords:



Every new item set, champion point, or situational bonus that adds spell power will exacerbate this! This imbalance will continue to get worse when Orsinium comes out and the power creep continues.

Why I don't want to use a restoration staff on my templar:

With Staff:



With Swords:



This is unbuffed. With a bad race (8 months since 1.6 and Nord magicka users are still running around with two crappy passive and thousands less magicka).

The resto staffs used to have a bonus to damage. It used to be unique in that it restored resources. Neither of these holds true anymore. It's sole purpose it to heal. It isn't even very good at that. The last passive is called "restoration master," it increases your healing done. But restoration masters use two swords, not a restoration staff:

My templar with a staff:



My templar with swords:



This is a HoT. Unbuffed. No food, no spellpower bonus, nothing.

Well, Joy, you are a Templar, so you can use dual swords. Other healers can't. Exactly. As if we templars already did not have a monopoly on healing, the IC nerf to blocking has further made us and our shards critical to group-play. My build isn't even optimized for spell damage. Those players who have 3.3k spell damage will lose more than the 550 I am losing - perhaps as much as 700 - by being forced to use a resto staff! This mechanic undercuts their heals and their overall versatility (healers today are expected to contribute good DPS).

In sum: Why do I have to lose all that spellpower just to use the healing springs spell?

Why I decon destruction staffs

Stamina users have a choice of 4 weapons to use. If 1 or 2 of them are suboptimal in the current meta (as usually happens), while this may be annoying to their preferred play-style, they can simply use one of the others and still perform efficiently and effectively. When the single DPS item ostensibly available to magicka users is suboptimal, they are screwed. The destruction staff went from arguably OP at game's launch to reasonably balanced by 1.5, to underperforming in 1.6, to just plain bad as of right now - all of this completely independent of the whole loss of hundreds and hundreds spellpower for using one.

And it is bad. Destructive touch is a waste of mana Vs. anyone with a damage shield:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeN99_z7N6M&feature=youtu.be

Wall of elements, the skill you staff users will get rewarded for farming Orsinium's arena, does nothing to enemies that stand in it. Watch the video, my health bar does not move:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJJb863umd4&feature=youtu.be

Use trapping webs from the undaunted tree for range spam. Crushing shock was nerfed and lost its chance to inflict elemental status effects. It just does modest damage now. Webs does as much damage, snares enemies, and has a fear CC synergy.

Etc, etc. The passives are underwhelming and the only skill that is good is elemental drain, one that does no damage, rather it provides unlimited resources.

In Sum: Is trading up to 700 spell damage for light attack spam compelling, let alone fair, game design? I don't think so.

What to do:

• Reevaluate the Restoration staff. Regeneration is a marginal skill. Siphon Spirit is now a bad one because ZoS limited this ability so it will only heal for a small amount once from any attack, no matter how much damage it did, no matter if it has secondary DoTs, no matter if the attack has additional damaging components (such as a weapon enchant proc). Cycle of Life, Essence Drain, Absorb are all obsolete passives.
• Reevaluate the Destruction Staff. All of its damaging skills are suboptimal and all of its passives are tied to mechanics that have been rendered obsolete since 1.6.
• Staffs now count as two gear set pieces.
• Note: I am not familiar enough with stamina to know if bows and two-handed swords suffer from the same problem as staff users. I see a lot of stamina DPS use a two-handed sword / wrecking blow instead of dual wield / rapid strikes so perhaps the inherent higher damage a two-handed sword has been enough to avoid the problem altogether. Still, my suggestions should only be considered for the state of magicka as I do not have enough knowledge in stamina DPS to be comfortable suggesting changes.

Finally, roll the "spellsword" archetype into the game's mechanics so that it will be relatively equal to a staff user instead of superior.

• The charged weapon trait is useless. It is replaced with the arcane property. An arcane trait makes it so the damage a sword's (basic) attacks do is based on magicka/spell damage. Now those spellswords who actually do use their swords are being rewarded for doing so.
• Arcane weapons give a small bonus for critical hits, spell penetration, and spell resistance because magicka dual wielders used either precise or nirn and should not lose their trait.
• From what I understand, magicka sword users benefit from the damage passive associated with these weapons on all of their attacks. This is fine, but again, why do sword users get a monopoly on damage?
• The destruction staff only offers penetration only for destruction skills. Either grant penetration to all magic attacks or make it so the passives from a destruction staff actually augment elemental damage.
• The resto staff had its damage bonus taken away, which I guess is fine, but it was never replaced with anything, which is not fine. Essence Drain and the Cycle of life are the two worst passives in the game. Please do something

tl;dr: Dual "sword" users are not nerfed under this format. In fact they are buffed since if they actually use their swords, that damage now scales off the magicka. Staff users are now no longer penalized with losing hundreds and hundreds spell damage (which will get worse every time a new gear bonus to spellpower makes its way into the game). Play as you want ... and not be penalized for it

Dracane

Amen. Nothing else to add.

2 things though. 2 handed sword offers indeed more spell damage than dual wield and faaaar more damage than a staff.
I couldn't believe it, but it's true. When wielding 2 golden V16 swords with spell damage of Turocs Pact, my Overload hits for over 200 less per cast than when I have a golden 2 hander that has nothing on it. This is because 2 handed sword becomes stronger at 1 point.

However, this just makes staves even worse. With that being said, staves and 2 handed sword (swords only) can basically live without offering 2 set slots. 2 handed sword offers more damage, even without this. Simple solution: Destruction staves get the same base damage as a 2 handed sword. Even more actually, because 2 handed sword offers 5% more damage when equipped, which is the reason why it is so superior. When using a maul or axe, this is no longer true. 2 hander is only superior due to it adding 5% more damage while it is equipped, axes and mauls don't and offer way less damage than dual wield.

Neither staves nor 2 handed swords offer place for 2 set slots. So they should have way more base damage to compensate. 2 hander already does, staff needs the same treatment. And this will already help a lot.

This will not make up for the bad bad state of destruction staff actives and passives. They are simply very bad and poor and highly underperforming/underpowered compared to other weapon skillines.

LegacyDM

Couldn't agree more. Great write up!

Birdovic

Greath Thread, 100% agreeing here

Jbugz97

@Joy_Division
if i could give you and Insightful Agree Awesome i would this was great post,

i still use staff just because i love the play style better.

but because of this, i have in 5 different times crafting duel wield sets to give it a try but i can't get use to it and just simply don't like that play style. so i don't know where zos comes with this play as you want

because im thinking right now i might give duel wield another try and play a way i dont want to but as your post show its a must have

navyspeed

Good write up.

Vyle_Byte

Dude, Joy... Nailed it!

Ty for taking the time to put all of this up, I hope that someone at ZOS will take the time to read it and pass it along.

Mr_Nobody

Destro staffs should be what magicka users, or atleast damage dealers, should use. I do love most of its spells, sadly, only few of them work.

Darkeus

only here in eso you get more spell dmg with a stamina wep vs a magical wep! its crap! not ok at all! never a stamina wep should give you better spell dmg then a staff or magic wep! eso starts to become a game without logic!

xaraan

Just the fact that someone would state that ranged users are 'safe' vs melee shows how little they know about their own game. Yes, use your ranged attack and be perfectly safe from charge attacks, wrecking blows that work from almost the same range as some bow attacks, reflects, flying blades! And if someone does use one of those "ultra rare" gap closers, use your unlimited stamina to dodge roll away and get to safety and never have to worry about being attacked by that melee user again! Let's not even forget that it's easier to build up magicka resist than physical resist and if you are magicka, you start lower with that resist anyhow b/c light armor < medium armor. The first time I heard a dev make that statement about ranged users I knew imbalance would never get fixed.

But, great post. You are right, there is no reason a caster should use dual swords or 2h sword and get stronger magicka dps than using a staff, not even counting that it gives an extra slot for sets. Even if they made it equal, it would still be more useful for my caster to use two swords or sword/board simply b/c I get one more set bonus out of it giving me more magicka/more dps depending on the set I'm using. They've recognized the imbalance by halfing the traits on one hand pieces, so they know it's there - yet they leave it imbalanced.

RAGUNAnoOne

this is a crap mechanic ZOS let mage weapons actually benefit mages instead of inhibiting them all who agree cast mutagen or destructive touch!

Yonkit

I feel like this issue is more complex because all builds do not simply conform to your model. If you are a sorc you are not dw/dw. You are dw/destro for pve. The same holds true for nb's and templars can get away with either. Then if you're a dk you are destro/destro for top deeps in the game. The destro staff becomes the weave component of dps and then the dw becomes the execute side because outside of templars you cannot skill spam without a rotation for top shelf dps.

When it comes down to pvp... destro staff is lost for the most part at this point but that's also not the worst thing as dmg setups are different and then we have seen so much variety and all weapon uses without any one single clear dominant build. Sure most sorcs may rock the dw, but that may not be the best overall other than to do one single style of play. Destro staff does need a reworking of its skills. Wall of elements in particular remains garbage but impulse is still solid, crushing shock is solid but could use a 10% buff to dmg, ele drain is solid, and clench/touch probably needs to work more effectively, but I can't say that changing destro to match dw power would be a balancing factor for the game. It's already plenty strong and just because templars can do without doesn't mean that it's fundamental to magicka class dps.

FriedEggSandwich

Remember the 10% damage boost just carrying a resto staff used to provide? *nostalgic sigh*

Flameheart

All I can say is great post, but the issue does not apply to every class in the same way.

I agree on the fact that, if more spell damage will apply to dual wielders in compare to staff wielders - and at a certain point twohand wielders even outperform dualwielders spell damage wise in this game, somehow feels like an artificial and flawed mechanic.

As already mentioned you will use a destruction staff just for using skills of the appropriate staff line or for light attack weaving or - in the case of a NB - for light attack weaving in combination with Grim Focus magicka morph + Spectral Bow. In addition maybe for the spell penetration passive bonus. On the other side as a NB I am able to light attack weave even while doing trash packs by using two swords, because I am in melee range.

In the sum using a destruction staff might give you the same dps or even a tad more as using a destruction staff, but at the cost of investing much more effort into your playstyle....and it still feels somewhat flawed that magicka staff users get indirectly penalized by using the tool that is made for them.

Levo18

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

drogon1

Very good analysis. /agree

Ishammael

Wow! Another great post by @Joy_Division

Agree with all of those things.

WillhelmBlack

Atm with Resto staff equipped 2220 spell power. With DW equipped 2245. Increase of 25 spell power. What has changed? I put 2 points into Twin blade and blunt. Have they nerfed it?

byrom101b16_ESO

ZOS need to answer this thread because it is well written to the point of making the issue self-evident.

Staffs need to have their base damage aligned with other 2H weapons and need their crappy skills re-balanced. Nothing OP, but to make them equally competitive.

Stannum

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Staffs need to have their base damage aligned with other 2H weapons and need their crappy skills re-balanced. Nothing OP, but to make them equally competitive.

I think vice versa stamina weapons should affect spellpower with penalty and stamina weapons passives should not affect magika-based skills.

Turelus

I understand FotM and the reasons for running the best builds to do what's needed in an MMO.

This one though is just meh.

Forumer-in-Prison

dancing.in.the.webeb17_ESO wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Staffs need to have their base damage aligned with other 2H weapons and need their crappy skills re-balanced. Nothing OP, but to make them equally competitive.

I think vice versa stamina weapons should affect spellpower with penalty and stamina weapons passives should not affect magika-based skills.

Do this and the rivers of QQ from PVE's who want a combat viable Role Play build will never end... Until ZOS revert it back of course. PVE>PVP ZOS logic

WillhelmBlack

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Atm with Resto staff equipped 2220 spell power. With DW equipped 2245. Increase of 25 spell power. What has changed? I put 2 points into Twin blade and blunt. Have they nerfed it?

^^

Staves are giving as much Spell Power now. Unless we have a bug or the extra damage now shows in the spell tooltip, I can't check in game atm.

Undefwun

From the patch notes:

Dual Wield
Twin Blade and Blunt:

• Updated the tooltip to clarify the conditions of each bonus. For example, having a sword equipped increases damage on all attacks, not just basic attacks or skills from this ability line.
• Adjusted the axe bonus so the bleed damage is increased, but now has a lower proc chance. This fixes an issue where, previously, the bleed was not dealing damage because it was being reapplied too quickly.
• The sword bonus no longer grants a percent bonus to Weapon Damage and Spell Damage (a change that was made for the Imperial City update). It once again modifies all damage as a direct bonus.

Brrrofski

Completely agree. It's stupid that it works the way it does.

I still rub the destro anyway, as I find weaving just more effective in pve.

Merlin13KAGL

Excellent post, @Joy_Division

Melee should be melee (WD), Arcane should be arcane (SD/Staff). It's lazy implementation they simply opted never to fix.

The one should not increase the other unless there is a specific enchant to do so - the number should not go up based on what is in your hand(s) unless it is relevant to the damage type you inflict.

With that, any two handed weapon should have around the damage equivalent of two one-handed weapons and should count as two set items. Make it use double the mats, whatever. The bonus should be equivalent.

Countering their cop-out "Spell Sword" argument, when you're swinging the swords, you're dealing WD, when you're casting, you're dealing SD. This is a hybrid build, at this point, so if you choose to go this route, you should have the benefits of each, but to a lesser degree, with the one you focus on most having most benefit.

The fact that they continue to limit builds based on what they have to have in their hand is absurd, even more so when you factor in that some of these "SpellSwords" never swing their weapon.

This could be fixed simply by a proximity check - the closer you are, the harder you hit, staves included. This change, alone would even out Staves with melee considerably, without the novelty of increased Spell Damage "magically" through increased weapon damage. This also eliminates the "safety by ranged" argument.

Eating a point blank fireball should hit at least as hard as two dagger strikes.

If you prefer to look at it another way, give staves equivalent damage, then reduce that damage as distance increases (down to the existing values now).

The third option would be arcane imbued melee items - items that make your spell damage go up (like the novelty does now) after you have used them as a melee weapon, not simply by holding them in your hand.

The existing setup, with the counterintuitive required CP placements should either be overhauled to be more in line with what would make sense, or they need to eliminate the idea of weapon damge vs spell damage, and simply lump them all together into a "damage" value that applies to both equally.

Things like Thaumaturge being placed in a tree along with weapon benefits is backwards enough the way it is.

The weapons should not define the class. The class should be supplemented by the weapons.

bertenburnyb16_ESO

agreed,
get ur *** straight Zeni

_Chaos

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Atm with Resto staff equipped 2220 spell power. With DW equipped 2245. Increase of 25 spell power. What has changed? I put 2 points into Twin blade and blunt. Have they nerfed it?

^^

Staves are giving as much Spell Power now. Unless we have a bug or the extra damage now shows in the spell tooltip, I can't check in game atm.

Can anyone verify that?

Alucardo

My level 30 sorc spell damage was just over 1500 with destro staff. Out of curiosity I equipped a couple of blue torug's swords. Now it's 2106. Jesus christ man. Time to get Law of Julianos, level webs and pimp this sucker out.

Alucardo

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Atm with Resto staff equipped 2220 spell power. With DW equipped 2245. Increase of 25 spell power. What has changed? I put 2 points into Twin blade and blunt. Have they nerfed it?

^^

Staves are giving as much Spell Power now. Unless we have a bug or the extra damage now shows in the spell tooltip, I can't check in game atm.

Can anyone verify that?

I would assume that's false based on my last comment. I had tested this last night after the update.

EgoRush

Arcane swords, that would be amazing.