Constructive criticism! PvP is lacking

briandivisionb16_ESO

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno

Hammy01

I have not read through all of this yet but in my opinion the real problem with pvp is that Cyrodiil is just too big for small scale pvp. It's possible to wander around for a very long time before you find any non zerg action and let's face it.. how many of us want to waste a couple of hours trying to find some small group action that has very little rewards (other than pride if you win). With this said most people are going to stick to watching the map to see where the action is and most likely join a group for the added protection against the opposite sides zerg when they get to where the action is.

Cyrodiil is fine for what it is and can be fun most times... heck to me it is like a larger version of Lotro monster play (although the keeps actually had keep lords) and I had fun playing that for years... but that zone was a lot smaller and easier to get into smaller skirmishes here and there. Cyrodiil is just too large and has too much open space where individuals can get lost in... maybe they could throw in some small scale objectives that matter to the overall score to give the solo/duo people something productive to do!!

I also think that ESO could benefit from some battle grounds.. say maybe something like Alterec Valley (sp?) (which just happens to be my favorite pvp battleground of all time)... but really they could just invent their own battlegrounds to support maybe 5v5 up to 40v40... but how do you make it work with 3 factions?

CtrlAltDlt

Hammy01 wrote: »

I have not read through all of this yet but in my opinion the real problem with pvp is that Cyrodiil is just too big for small scale pvp. It's possible to wander around for a very long time before you find any non zerg action and let's face it.. how many of us want to waste a couple of hours trying to find some small group action that has very little rewards (other than pride if you win). With this said most people are going to stick to watching the map to see where the action is and most likely join a group for the added protection against the opposite sides zerg when they get to where the action is.

Cyrodiil is fine for what it is and can be fun most times... heck to me it is like a larger version of Lotro monster play (although the keeps actually had keep lords) and I had fun playing that for years... but that zone was a lot smaller and easier to get into smaller skirmishes here and there. Cyrodiil is just too large and has too much open space where individuals can get lost in... maybe they could throw in some small scale objectives that matter to the overall score to give the solo/duo people something productive to do!!

I also think that ESO could benefit from some battle grounds.. say maybe something like Alterec Valley (sp?) (which just happens to be my favorite pvp battleground of all time)... but really they could just invent their own battlegrounds to support maybe 5v5 up to 40v40... but how do you make it work with 3 factions?

I think there are too many campaigns. 2 at the most would be ideal.

briandivisionb16_ESO

AOE sucks as it is.
50% damage reduction if you have more than 6 people in your group?
Been this way since last July. Was a much better PvP game before then.

briandivisionb16_ESO

juan0316 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Hammy01 wrote: »

I think there are too many campaigns. 2 at the most would be ideal.

Agree with this too.

Xandryah

in swtor there are no zergs in daily areas (Illum, Oricon, Black Hole, Yavin 4, Section X, etc..) in PvP-servers. Why?

imo, because swtor:

. solo-player-friendly MMO
. very solid combat system
. mostly instanced mini-bosses for dailies etc...
. mobs deal much much less dmg to player, even less when player's level is higher and consequently grants player to kill mobs in reasonable time and advance during daily quests
(unlike Craglorn which is extreme for casual-player-soloing); vet 13 hit like a truck to purple/golden vet 14 (average build)
. respawn-times are pretty short and very convenient in daily areas
. if you get ganked you can respawn where you got killed after reasonable time (pretty much like ESO IC)
. you don't lose TS, and if there was such a system, it probably would be more moderate and theme-parky (imo); no 80%


> there are zergs during the Ilum-event... with camping etc and preventing players to complete a daily... but, many players know each other after a while (also because communication is granted, a bit more easy to use than ESO; also between the two factions) ; zergs only form and happen around that very daily when the event is on basically.

SneaK

Things I think should change/revert...

1. Damage Mitigation should have been about 35%, not 50%.

2. Bring back silent siege, Cold Stones.

3. Siege damage needs an overall buff.

4. Magicka Detonation needs to be redone.

5. Need incremental population caps to each campaign to help with balance!

6. Some of the IC districts should have hosted PvP arena type of games 5v5, 12v12, etc.

7. Unrelated to PvP, they need to update the DSA and trials to max level.

Lightninvash

you are lacking l2p donate ur stuff deleted download repeat o.o then l2p more o.o

GreyPilgrim

To be honest, I fell off the PvP wagon in this game back around 1.5, and 2.0 didn't fix things, so I've been lurking on these forums trying to see some sign that ZOS has finally gotten PvP back on track. Sadly, conversations like this lead me to believe they haven't.

What's also sad is that most of this was rather predictable. This is from a post I made almost a year ago

GreyPilgrim wrote: »

However, I am SUPER skeptical of the impact of the new 'zerg buster' skill that's supposed to be coming out. maybe its how overused AoE's already are, but another universally available AoE just doesn't seem like its going to help with build/gameplay diversity, which is one of the main issues of the Impulse zerg. I suspect bombs will just become the new zerg, in the sense of being the attack that's overly effective and everybody constantly uses it.

....

and this one

GreyPilgrim wrote: »

Seriously, just going to say that this will either be a disaster, or completely ineffective... maybe both...

I mean really? You're going to fix a problem with everyone using the same overly effective AOE spamming tactic by...

Introducing a new AOE that everyone can spam...

....

@ZOS seriously the problem of zergs is not just that they're too effective, it's that EVERYONE has access to the weapons and armor that make it possible, so everyone ends up with the same build, no matter what class they are, and gameplay devolves into boring zerging where everyone all does the same thing. And your solution to that is to introduce yet another overpowered AOE that everyone can use? It might bust up zergs, but it will do nothing to diversify gameplay.

I can't even begin to describe how baffling that is. Maybe you should just figure out that you made AOE's in this game too cheap, powerful, and universally available, and think about how you're going to fix that so that diverse play-styles are actually worth using. Otherwise, I can't wait to see how this plays out... I'm guessing it will be a bomb that backfires...

Obviously edited to stay on point, and, honestly, to remove the stuff I was wrong about, which was a lot. But it seems clear that, in fact, the zerg-busting ability has simply become the favored ability of zergs.

Which leads me to once again suggest what should have been clear from day one of this games design, that having every class in the game have access to many of the same powerful AOE's eventually leads to everyone using derivatives of the same basic builds, regardless of class. Unfortunately, we are so far along that it would now be virtually impossible for ZOS to role back all of those AOE's, without borking the PVE game they have built around the same mechanics.

And given that the PVP pop has dropped to dismal numbers, they have little financial incentive to fix it. I rather suspect that these well intentioned criticisms are all just spitting in the wind, as ZOS will just keep focusing on the stuff they got right with PVE, where the remaining player-base is.

But, I'll keep popping back in here, optimistic little bunny that I am...

briandivisionb16_ESO

GreyPilgrim wrote: »

I've been lurking on these forums trying to see some sign that ZOS has finally gotten PvP back on track. Sadly, conversations like this lead me to believe they haven't.

Well I'm glad these conversations helped someone, because ZOS don't care to comment.
Such constructive threads out there lately, and they reply to the cosmetic ones and leave these to die.

Wearing.
Thin.

m0riarty23

I posted discussion about Cyrodiil that adds to this conversation.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/224419/z-fake-zen-designer-oblivion-gates-opening-in-cyrodiil#latest

Flyersfan314

PvP is boring. There is just not a lot there. Its bland.

Cryhavoc

Arena and Battleground PVP will work for a short time, then they will be boring, gear grind fest.. Look at WoW, just a new way to earn currency and then spend it. It will be fun for a time, until we master the maps, then it becomes PVE.

Arenas will work great for class balancing and/or systematic nerfing. All that data... 4v4 Nightblades vs Sorcs, I can see it now.

Open world roaming Cyrodiil PVP needs to make a come back. Small groups of 4-12 need objectives to hold vs a zerg. I remember WoW had something similar that was fun. Buff siege weapons, remove aoe caps, variable ultimate gain, lower AP gain for large groups, etc.

Idea: add additional objectives to the Cyrodiil map.

briandivisionb16_ESO

Removing AoE caps *tongue in cheek*

Our decision is based on two factors: balance and feedback.

We realised that not everyone wants to play in a big group. AoE mitigation mechanics force smallscale and solo players who want to compete to run with a zerg. The math? Well, battle-leveling and AoE caps combined gave players 75% damage reduction. If they run with more than 6 people.

This meant that you and your buddy hit a group with your Steel Tornados for 7k damage, like it says in the tooltip. However, the 7th and consecutive members take only 3500 damage due to AoE cap.
Wait, sorry. 1750 damage due to AoE cap and battle-level.

The zerg still hits you and your buddy for the full 7000.

So for balance you can enjoy the removed AoE caps. Why give an advantage to a group that already outnumbers you in the first place, you ask?
Allow us to explain.

We fired Jeremy yesterday. Back in 2014 in a board-meeting Jeremy wrote "4 guys wipe 40 man group because of AoE!1" He underlined 'because of AoE' three times!
Jeremy showed us a video of a 40 man group dying to 3 players! We didn't understand it. Multiple threads complaining. Hysteria. Can you blame us for insta-patching damage reduction? Yes? Oh well, we're sorry.

It was weird. It took a while. Our PvP playerbase dwindled so much even though we launched Imp City. Populations started emptying. Thread after thread.
Well. It was costing us too much to moderate the forum rage so by sheer luck we tried listening to our players!

In this update we took advice from Arena, a guild of PvPers since launch. We listed to cunning advice from Tamriel Foundry, the guys who basically theorycraft everything. We heeded @SypherPK @LeftyLucy @LordFengrush @LordRichard @Deltia. They all told us 75% mitigation was a bad idea. Jeremy was 'off his head' The real reasons these zergs wiped in 2014 was because batswarm was bugged! You could have it up 100% of the time and our AoE hotfix wasn't needed.

OK. I'm out of stamina. But thanks for reading :-) I hope you enjoyed the thread. Here is a less satirical version which goes into the mechanics a bit more, and solutions. Come contribute ^^
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/222733/constructive-criticism-pvp-is-lacking/p1


Trying to stay constructive. I honestly think the driving issue in PvP is ZOS removing AoE caps. The 50% reduced damage would stop wipes from small groups if the larger group uses even remotely similar levels of strategy.
I thought about it. 3 guys rush a group of 20. Well, if this group of 20 has at least 3 guys of similar skill or PvP awareness then the 20 will win every time. Ha.

Cryhavoc

Things I think should change/revert...

1. Damage Mitigation should have been about 35%, not 50%.

2. Bring back silent siege, Cold Stones.

3. Siege damage needs an overall buff.

4. Magicka Detonation needs to be redone.

5. Need incremental population caps to each campaign to help with balance!

6. Some of the IC districts should have hosted PvP arena type of games 5v5, 12v12, etc.

7. Unrelated to PvP, they need to update the DSA and trials to max level.
"IMO"

I agree.

8. Remove the AOE cap

nimander99

It's true, AOE caps need to be readdressed.

briandivisionb16_ESO

nimander99 wrote: »

It's true, AOE caps need to be readdressed.

Why aren't you on the dev team? :P

Flyersfan314

What we should do is get rid of PvP entirely and focus solely on PvE content. We need to work together to save Tamriel not against each other.

rager82b14_ESO

Not all things should be about skill.
Not all things should be competitive.


A game can be skilled base, or it can be like this. The pvp is enjoyable by many players. Not all pvp should be balanced or even fair.

icontested

I say have an option to duel.. Fly into the air dragon ball z style on top of your dragon and flying mount duel in the air DBZ style

Cryhavoc

What we should do is get rid of PvP entirely and focus solely on PvE content. We need to work together to save Tamriel not against each other.

lol, that's cute.

icontested

I think the reason some people feel pvp is lacking is because everyone wants to 1v1. That's fine, fun, and cool, but in a MMO that can't be the focus. The reason the game is this way is because a sorcerer doesn't need a Dk for overshields, he has his own. You don't need a templar, you need a restoration staff. When a mmo gives the players a way to become masters of their own universe it is no longer mmo. It is open world..

briandivisionb16_ESO

icontested wrote: »

I think the reason some people feel pvp is lacking is because everyone wants to 1v1. That's fine, fun, and cool, but in a MMO that can't be the focus. The reason the game is this way is because a sorcerer doesn't need a Dk for overshields, he has his own. You don't need a templar, you need a restoration staff. When a mmo gives the players a way to become masters of their own universe it is no longer mmo. It is open world..

Quoted for truth, except 75% mitigation for every members after the 6th is still bull.

Banroc

briandivisionb16_ESO wrote: »

AOE sucks as it is.
50% damage reduction if you have more than 6 people in your group?
Been this way since last July. Was a much better PvP game before then.

Totaly agree They have tried a cap...it dose not work

They should try removing AOE damaging spells as it is now ZOS can not balance or address Zerging Bomb squads
I can not see what else would work ,remove the cap AOE gets abused ,as it is now AOE gets abused.

briandivisionb16_ESO

Removing AOE there's an interesting idea!

briandivisionb16_ESO

briandivisionb16_ESO wrote: »

*solutions*

1. What mechanics can we change to make PvP competitive?

   Beesting wrote: »

   Spoiler

   People can still group up and enter campains where they are not homed to wreck face to the locals. This should stop.
   Also the gated access could be implemented now, stimulating more people to leave the sewers and help defend keeps.
   But i honestly dont know if this would fix the current problem...

   FireCowCommando wrote: »

   Spoiler

   battlegrounds! elo system!

   
   
   
2. How can we penalise zergs?

   CaptainObvious wrote: »

   If your party is larger than the current opposition, then proximity detonation backfires.

   I particularly like this but how about the skill just doesn't work if your group is larger?

   Zorrashi wrote: »

   Spoiler

   How about just buffs/debuffs based on group size?

   rfennell_ESO wrote: »

   Spoiler

   If you were to reduce AP gains like XP gains, but go even further... like 50% reduction of AP total at a number and another 50% at another (and so on). Zerging would no longer be something you saw as often.

   Wollust wrote: »

   Spoiler

   I actually wouldn't have a problem with these kinda groups if it wasn't for AoE-Caps protecting the zergs balling up on the crown which gives free damage mitigation. Lag and Steel Tornado = broken
   
   Proxy Detonation: capped with 6 targets. WTF? AoE-caps are the most broken thing in this game.

   
   
3. How can we reward groups that aren't zerging?

   "phairdon wrote: »

   Spoiler

   Make pvp specific maps for small scale action.

   
   
   
4. How can we encourage zergs to spread out?

   CrowsDescend wrote: »

   Spoiler

   We used to be able to use a sneaky Coldharbour siege weapon to make the zergs disperse, but now they hit like a wet noodle. I would (also) strongly suggest upping Siege Weapon damage because it's just dramatically low right now.

   DEATHquidox wrote: »

   Spoiler

   Id say theres 4 morphs to magicka det for a stam version and with both on self and target to stop the zergs and dont have a damage cap for all the people in it.

   SneaK wrote: »

   Spoiler

   I think removing certain AOE caps would allow smaller groups to tactically bust zergs.

   
   
   

5. How can we fix leaderboards so actually the top and best players are rewarded instead of the 'Jeremys' in the game?

6. firstdecan wrote: »

   Spoiler

   having an NPC spy or spotter network that would provide periodic heatmaps of opposing player populations.

7. SneaK wrote: »

   Spoiler

   They can just storm into the hallway of the bridge without worrying about oil, or being snared and proxy'd. If there were a counter for them (siege/proxdet/something), smaller groups would at least have a fighting chance TO SLOW THEM DOWN

   
   
   
   
8. Other

   Olivierko wrote: »

   Spoiler

   I believe that the best solution for competitive PvP would be Battlegrounds/Arenas of some sort which are instanced with dedicated leaderboards.

9. Robbmrp wrote: »

   Spoiler

   If you want to get rid of Zergs, then the problems creating them must go away first. Otherwise people will continue to do what they must to survive.

   Spoiler

   They should try removing AOE damaging spells as it is now ZOS can not balance or address Zerging Bomb squads

I'm still wondering if ZOS will ever implement any of these solutions? Or at least tell us they won't, so we can pack our bags and move on.
Nothing worse than sitting on the sidelines hoping...

GreenSoup2HoT

I completely disagree with everyone's points unless they resemble the ones below.

-Fix Siege Damage.

This will allow 20v20 siege battles a 50/50 chance. Next will help this further.


-Remove AoE cap or AoE cap purge / barrier / templar ultimate / + any other ultimate not effected.

These 3 things in the hands of a Zerg is gg. If you remove AoE cap's. Zergs will bust you up just as hard. However if you have a smaller team, this Capped Purge / Barrier / Templar Heal may be more effective for smaller numbers.

I would much rather the AoE cap effect everything then just remove it. You will have a bigger problem of unstoppable teams with barrier and purge and negate ultimate bomb's where casuals will never win. Could be a different story on pc but console there are all ready teams like this busting up Zerg's abusing these ultimate's + purge.

This one can go either way in my opinion. ^^


-Stronger Keep Wall's or Implement a catch up system.

The walls go down like paper. If this were longer, there might be more time to react. However if your alliance owns everything, it should be extremely easy for an enemy alliance to take back whats theirs.

The more you obtain the harder the walls get and vice versa.


-Increase the player cap for campaigns and remove that damn lighting patch that ruined everything.

Lag is seen with barely 20 people. We all know of that one beta video with over 300+ people per alliance. This is the kind of warfare i wanna see. Not this lag garbage we have now. If you have to remove some pretty lighting to have battles like this, i doubt anyone would complain.


-Just create a arena so all these duelers can leave cryodil.

I wanna see more roles like in dungeons on the battlefields. Designated: Healers, Archers, Tanks, Bruisers, ETC. Not just this 100% weapon/spell damage ***. I wanna see groups of guilds wearing the same guild tabard rolling around. I'd even like to see ganking guilds all playing in the shadow's. Screw all this 1vX 1v1 bs. I wanna see guild vs guild fights. Who has the better alliance/guild?


-More outpost's / structures to capture.

The game-play is so stale. You could draw lines with a ruler between each keep/outpost and that's the only route people take. We need more structures to capture that will have an effect on the battlefield.

Make some temples that give your alliance X ( 200 regen for example) for owning it. Little buffs that go a long way. Make them separate to Emperor-ship but something people want. This however wont work without a good back and forth between campaigns. So you would have to implement some of the ideas above to allow this to work properly. However could be incredibly hard to assault and easy to defend. Something a small group could hold.

Bandit camps?

Can a small group go take over a bandit camp and get some Npc help when taking a keep? Just to freshen up things. They could possibly fire siege for you.

Daedric Watch Tower's? Fight daedra for sight?

Something you can capture that could sense enemy presence and alert your alliance on the map how many players are heading in a certain direction? . Not just some Sword's. An actual Number of how many players are there. These watch towers would be located in various locations. You could then Spot an area on the map possibly, or just have a set location for it.


A lot of these idea's really need a loaded campaign like in those beta days to have any effect.
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This is just my opinion. Don't take it to seriously, nothing changes anyways. Zos keeps digging a deeper hole.

Flipd

i think they got the msg already, but as zos and mainly an rpg company.. they really arent that focus on us, pvp players.