Constructive criticism! PvP is lacking

briandivisionb16_ESO

My friend Jeremy is 50 years old and needs AP for his Cyrodiil boxes. He is a Nightblade bow user. He hardly ever PvPs. On his own he dies to most players. Yet after only 3 nights of bombgrouping is RANK 5 on the leaderboard. The group leaders tells him to slot an AoE so he does that and the 23 other Jeremys in the group are soon competing for alliance emporership.


Most zergs are casual players who just bunch together usually on teamspeak for a laugh. See, there's little to do in this game for mass numbers so you can't blame them.Hypocritically, I've run with these guilds before. One had a 'drunken PvP night' and ran around with no gear on, quite funny. I don't drink so It soon got stale for me.

Most zergs have hundreds upon hundreds of members and accept anyone, recruiting indiscriminately, more the merrier.

Problem
These casual guilds are destroying competitive players.
These casual zergtrains are destroying players that like to strategize.

I am sorry. No. Forgive me.

The way the game works is destroying competitive players.
The way the game works is destroying players that like to strategize.

How can you strategize against a superior number in ESO? Players can't compete with AoE caps and situations where numbers trump tactics. Every. Time.
Why and how the mechanics of the game favour superior number has been explained quite a few times, you can read up on the specifics in a few threads here:

I will add here the threads that explain botched mechanics later.

Now I expect a few replies saying 'Oh try this skill,' or 'this siege weapon works' but ZOS, listen and trust players that are in dedicated PvP guilds with 100+ in game days played. On our accounts we've played since launch. Majority of it in Cyrodiil.

Are we hypocritical for staying this long and being facerolled by Zergs? Yes.
Do we feel that with some changes this game can break through and improve? Most definitely.

To summarise my above points: competitiveness and strategy in your PvP aspect is at an all time low.
Orsinium will be great competition for the PvE'ers. The leaderboards are something I might even try myself! Now tell us @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom ...How are you going to fix PvP for ME?

I don't play in casual bombgroup guilds with 'whoever is online' I find it stupid and boring. I like to compete against other players such as myself. Like all competitive sports I want to know how good I can get and demonstrate it to other people. Or how decent our smallscale group is against other smallscale groups.
I mean, these bombgroup guilds go under all the time. Only to be replaced with another guild that does the same and fades out again. The pattern repeats itself.

I have a nagging feeling that Zenimax thinks they are catering towards group fights. I have a feeling that they have the policy to focus on the masses.
Despite this Zenimax, you aren't catering towards group fights at all. You aren't catering towards your playerbase majority.
Zos you're catering towards numbers. Not. The. Same.

What is AP farming? (Yes 'AP farming' is a term in ESO)
I thought I would cover this to emphasise how streamlined 'PvP' is currently.

For the sake of argument, take a look at actual PvPers such as SypherPK.
Our Sypher never runs with a bombgroup he just PvPs. Why is he never on the top 100 players? Because he doesn't farm AP.

Farming AP is where you recruit as many people as possible to 'farm' enemy players for alliance points. FARMING enemy players. I mean its like we are NPCs. Remember good old Jeremy? He's having a right laugh. But hey, at least he can buy cool shiny things with his AP.
Zergs will hide in stealth e.g. in a random barn where nobody would check, no objectives in there. They will hide until enough enemy players are in one area and then run over them, usually doing this you can farm really decent AP. If you repeat it a few times you can net yourself a position on the top 100 players.

Of course we don't blame Jeremy, its his style of play and his way to get gear.

Next post will be for solutions please feel free to quote these questions with your ideas:

briandivisionb16_ESO

*solutions*

1. What mechanics can we change to make PvP competitive?

   Beesting wrote: »

   People can still group up and enter campains where they are not homed to wreck face to the locals. This should stop.
   Also the gated access could be implemented now, stimulating more people to leave the sewers and help defend keeps.
   But i honestly dont know if this would fix the current problem...

   FireCowCommando wrote: »

   battlegrounds! elo system!

   
   
   
2. How can we penalise zergs?

   CaptainObvious wrote: »

   If your party is larger than the current opposition, then proximity detonation backfires.

   I particularly like this but how about the skill just doesn't work if your group is larger?

   Zorrashi wrote: »

   How about just buffs/debuffs based on group size?

   rfennell_ESO wrote: »

   If you were to reduce AP gains like XP gains, but go even further... like 50% reduction of AP total at a number and another 50% at another (and so on). Zerging would no longer be something you saw as often.

   Wollust wrote: »

   I actually wouldn't have a problem with these kinda groups if it wasn't for AoE-Caps protecting the zergs balling up on the crown which gives free damage mitigation. Lag and Steel Tornado = broken
   
   Proxy Detonation: capped with 6 targets. WTF? AoE-caps are the most broken thing in this game.

   
   
3. How can we reward groups that aren't zerging?

   "phairdon wrote: »

   Make pvp specific maps for small scale action.

   
   
   
4. How can we encourage zergs to spread out?

   CrowsDescend wrote: »

   We used to be able to use a sneaky Coldharbour siege weapon to make the zergs disperse, but now they hit like a wet noodle. I would (also) strongly suggest upping Siege Weapon damage because it's just dramatically low right now.

   DEATHquidox wrote: »

   Id say theres 4 morphs to magicka det for a stam version and with both on self and target to stop the zergs and dont have a damage cap for all the people in it.

   SneaK wrote: »

   I think removing certain AOE caps would allow smaller groups to tactically bust zergs.

   
   
   

5. How can we fix leaderboards so actually the top and best players are rewarded instead of the 'Jeremys' in the game?

6. firstdecan wrote: »

   having an NPC spy or spotter network that would provide periodic heatmaps of opposing player populations.

7. SneaK wrote: »

   They can just storm into the hallway of the bridge without worrying about oil, or being snared and proxy'd. If there were a counter for them (siege/proxdet/something), smaller groups would at least have a fighting chance TO SLOW THEM DOWN

   
   
   
   
8. Other

   Olivierko wrote: »

   I believe that the best solution for competitive PvP would be Battlegrounds/Arenas of some sort which are instanced with dedicated leaderboards.

9. Robbmrp wrote: »

   If you want to get rid of Zergs, then the problems creating them must go away first. Otherwise people will continue to do what they must to survive.

   They should try removing AOE damaging spells as it is now ZOS can not balance or address Zerging Bomb squads

Molag_Crow

Most zergs are casual players who just bunch together usually on teamspeak for a laugh.

That is very true. I've been apart of those groups and also witnessed it, yet felt the sense of accomplishment fade due to the fact that it requires no skill, whatsoever. It's gotten so bad that I don't even assist my group if they all start ganging up on 1 guy.

---

How can you strategize against a superior number in ESO? Players can't compete with AoE caps and situations where numbers trump tactics. Every. Time.

We can't anymore. We used to be able to use a sneaky Coldharbour siege weapon to make the zergs disperse, but now they hit like a wet noodle. Magicka Detonation seems pointless now too since the AOE cap and reduced damage.

---

Most zergs have hundreds upon hundreds of members and accept anyone, recruiting indiscriminately, more the merrier.

True once again. I've also noticed that the leaders of these very guilds aren't exactly the skillful type, no offence to anybody but from my experience, the leaders of these kind of guilds can't stand dying/losing at all, so they form a huge zerg for a sense of accomplishment.

---

I thought I would cover this to emphasise how streamlined 'PvP' is currently.

For the sake of argument, take a look at actual PvPers such as SypherPK.
Our Sypher never runs with a bombgroup he just PvPs. Why is he never on the top 100 players? Because he doesn't farm AP.

Farming AP is where you recruit as many people as possible to 'farm' enemy players for alliance points. FARMING enemy players. I mean its like we are NPCs. Remember good old Jeremy? He's having a right laugh. But hey, at least he can buy cool shiny things with his AP.
Zergs will hide in stealth e.g. in a random barn where nobody would check, no objectives in there. They will hide until enough enemy players are in one area and then run over them, usually doing this you can farm really decent AP. If you repeat it a few times you can net yourself a position on the top 100 players.

Of course we don't blame Jeremy, its his style of play and his way to get gear.

Now this is what I've been saying to others all along! man, you've hit the nail on the head with this whole topic and it will be a shame if it gets ignored.

I know plenty of players who have achieved Emperor/Empress doing exactly that, and do I blame them? no, because the option is there, it's easy, it's simple, linear, no effort needed. Just like those Emperors/Empresses who spam certain abilities like Mutagen (resto staff heal) to Dispell and Heal their whole zerg while they do the killing. It gotten so bad that we have teams on DC who'd come over to Kingscrest and knock down the stairs so they can just farm EP who come up.

"Emperor of wall-repair" is another thing, but AP farmers do ruin the whole concept of a good battle. People will give a generalized solution "Make your own zerg then" but that doesn't solve things. I could make a zerg, wipe the AP farmers out and then what? wait for them to regroup and meet up with them again for zergfests? I think this is why a lot of PvPers choose to PvP in IC sewers.

I personally can't think of a solution right now, well... I would strongly suggest upping Siege Weapon damage because it's just dramatically low right now. I poured Flaming Oil on a guy TWICE and had to get off the oil and jump down to finish him off because his health was only on like 30%.

briandivisionb16_ESO

QFT

Sausage

You came to zerg game to complain about zergs. Play Planetside 2, its quite good on PC these days.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

DEATHquidox

Id say theres 4 morphs to magicka det for a stam version and with both on self and target to stop the zergs and dont have a damage cap for all the people in it. That would fix alot of the zergs honestly more people eventually would = instant kill but there cant be a spreading of the damage with it it has to stack hard like 20% of the damage per person in it so say theres 20 people in it and its normal damage is idk 6-7k it will hit 20% more per person with no cap so if you have 20 people in it and they choose to stand in it then boom you get 20 kills thats honestly how it should work.

SneaK

Buff Proxy Detonation.

Redo the math for everything.

Damage reduction is way too much.

ADarklore

Um, y'all do realize that casual players are the majority in this game right? So what you're asking is to make things more difficult for the majority of players so the minority players can play their way. I don't think that makes a whole lot of financial sense for ZOS to do.

Olivierko

Well written post, unfortunately I believe that the best solution for competitive PvP would be Battlegrounds/Arenas of some sort which are instanced with dedicated leaderboards.

Cyrodiil is a warzone which forces the average Joe to team up with others as you put it.

Implementing friendly fire is probably not an option due to griefing, but it would most likely mean that Jeremy would cause more harm than good if there was such a thing.

Mojomonkeyman

ADarklore wrote: »

Um, y'all do realize that casual players are the majority in this game right? So what you're asking is to make things more difficult for the majority of players so the minority players can play their way. I don't think that makes a whole lot of financial sense for ZOS to do.

That might be true, but it would be make for better (more competetive) PvP and thats exactly his point, right?

Vangy

But.... But.... I like joining up with 100 of my guildies and steam rolling everything across cyrodil while farming players like npcs... It's fun for me and my friends. Why penalise our fun? T.T

ADarklore

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

That might be true, but it would be make for better (more competetive) PvP and thats exactly his point, right?

More competitive for the minority does not equate to paying the bills to keep the game going or pay for continued content development. Catering to the majority keeps more people playing and extends the time the game stays around.

Molag_Crow

Olivierko wrote: »

Well written post, unfortunately I believe that the best solution for competitive PvP would be Battlegrounds/Arenas of some sort which are instanced with dedicated leaderboards.

Cyrodiil is a warzone which forces the average Joe to team up with others as you put it.

Implementing friendly fire is probably not an option due to griefing, but it would most likely mean that Jeremy would cause more harm than good if there was such a thing.

Indeed... Arenas/battlegrounds would be a nice addition to this game. I'd love to be able to do 10 vs 10 in capture the flag or something,

Beesting

As a member of what formerly used to be swat (bombgroup runs or trains) and now enjoying small scale pvp much more i have the following input based on my experiences: (i know the OP)

1. At the moment in pvp the bigger number always wins. I mean the real lvl 10 noobs of the past are long gone and left the game, now most people playing are either rolling alts or at least pretty good at dungeons and vet dsa and they hit hard.

more people = win, i have seen it many times. Like yesterday when we were with 12 people on ts and we took the 6 keeps in like an hour and our leader got emp on chillrend.

We were happy. Two hours later 60 DC grouped up at Roebeck farm and we could not kill enough of them to stop them doing whatever they planned. And believe me we tried

of course it took no skill for the 60 to kill us 12. They just stood there and swarmed us. It did not matter we had the emperor on our team at all.

I was thinking i bet even @Hexys would have a hard time now with his 12 man raid against such numbers. There is literally no point trying

2. I dont care about the emperor title myself, most people running around with former emp titles got it when people like me are at work and the whole server is empty. Only a few people are so good they can actually defend the title at prime time when the big guilds log on. And i wonder if , with all the nerfes to sorcs and damage and such, it is still even possible after IC to wipe whole zergs. Those days are gone i guess. Enough said.

3. Noobs will learn what skills to use: It was funny to see 30 reds use promity detonation on our 12 man group, also last night after we lost emp and thought lets kill some easy reds . I have never seen so many red circles zerging towards me before. Just another sign the casual pvp players that join an organised pvp raid are growing up. Not that i could not survive it much longer than expected, but that is another story.

4. Nobody like to lead zergs: i have been in many groups where people were leading and after a few weeks they were fed up because the casuals are slow, dont listen, dont understand directions and are more of a liability to the group than actual benefit. We have all seen the casual that spams healing springs on a group in sneak. But what can you do.

5. Solo pvp : I have seen sorcs running around solo in the sewers killing casual players for ap and their stones. This is not real pvp, because they rely on the element of surprise and will run off if they loose. Only 2 classes can join in this kind of fun, because the ability to escape is necessary.

Conclusion:
Small scale pvp with friends on ts , were everyone knows what they are doing and the crown role is just random is best and nicest and most fun. The question is, what can those small groups really do against big zergs.

I guess you could play on a campain where your faction has good numbers and use the friendly zergs as a meatshield and a distraction while you take scrolls or keep flags etc.

The problem of campain inbalance like last night on Chillrend where DC had 3 trains (100 people) running and AD had max 15 people on the whole server, is not fixed with IC

People can still group up and enter campains where they are not homed to wreck face to the locals. This should stop.
Also the gated access could be implemented now, stimulating more people to leave the sewers and help defend keeps.

But i honestly dont know if this would fix the current problem , and maybe i dont care anymore. I just want to have fun with people that i know and can trust, even if we die and fail at our objectives.

Beesting

Thinking about solutions i guess it works a bit like this:

1. People are new to pvp , they type lfg in zone. After a while they see it does not work because nobody works together and it just just no fun

2 they join a raid guild which in many cases turns out to be a 24 or more man train. But at least the train driver seems to know what he is doing. When he logs off, the train falls apart

3. Due to drama in the ts, people shop around to find a traindriver they like

4. In steps 2 and 3 they make friends, like minded people that have the same day/night ritm and can dedicate the same amount of time on regular interfalls to do pvp. So they make a small guild and have fun

5. Some people are just so good they can solo the whole server lol

I guess this is a normal pattern for people that join eso, or start pvp. There is no solution to zerging because it has it's place and fill's a need for people to experience pvp

Zorrashi

Zergs make a bit of sense, no? An high leveled player should not simply be able to wipe out an army of 50+ players so easily. Lower leveled players being able to gain a significant advantage by numbers as a legitimate strategy is ideal for keeping players of every level able to have an enjoyable PvP experience by actually permitting lower level players to win battles.
But I (think) I get what your saying. More viability for smaller PvP groups and/or "competitive" players as you call them (non-casuals I'm assuming?)
I would suggest adding diversified terrain over Cyrodil where certain attributes apply depending on the size of the group, but that would take far too much time and resources. Not to mention will likely add to lag (the most likely reason as to why they made Cyrodil sweeping plains/mountains and not a jungle).

So how about just buffs/debuffs based on group size? Like reducing the ability of groups beyond 10+ players to sneak effectively (or increased sneak stamina consumption) or maybe an X% increase on attack/sprint speed for players in group of less than 5 players.
Alternatively we can simply alter the AP gain to discourage zergs from farming smaller groups. Like have there be no AP gain for zergs when they kill players in a group of less than 10 players. Basically encourage zergs to combat other zergs if they want to get their AP.
But of course I'm sure there are other ways to go about it, but that's just me spitballing.

SneaK

I think removing certain AOE caps would allow smaller groups to tactically bust zergs. Pretty sure that would be an easy fix as well.

Docmandu

I don't mind the huge zergs per-se.. since normally you can pick off a player here and there.. but these days it's gather behind a rock with 50, cast proxy det, come out and crit rush/charge closed target, followed by BOOM.. rinse and repeat.

And there's little you can do to break such stacked groups, because they just cycle through barrier ultimates.

The skill that was added to "break" / "counter" zergs is actually mostly used by the zergs to kill non-zerg-balled players.


There's still nothing really to break up a stacked barrier spamming zerg ball.

briandivisionb16_ESO

Grabbing as much quotes as I can

OGLezard

this is the very reason why pvp in general is so stale for me now. IC is nothing but either zergballterrabads everywhere or truces between factions in campaigns, and if you break that truces you get kicked from groups.

What I think is worse are the people who just refuse to die, never let go of block, can bounce from no health to full health, and the others who literally take 0 damage from 12k attacks ALL. THE. TIME. There is some fishy stuff going on with certain players whom one can not name due to ZoS wanting to protect them.......

in the end this game is what it is. Mass confusion

Forestd16b14_ESO

Or maybe add a PvP arena and remove block casting from the game?

QuebraRegra

The patches and direction of the game have been designed to promote zerging, my only guess is that is what the devs intended, as any previous zerg busting skills, etc. have been nerfed.

I do not care for the zerg, to be frank it ruins any small group play whatsoever. It's primary participants are the mindless and the lazy, but you have to blame the design before you can blame the player for playing as is obviously "prescribed".

I'm on hiatus from this game, awaiting something sensible in terms of a patch/balance. Somebody wake me when we arrive.

Robbmrp

These are my opinions on Zerging and the things I feel are wrong with ESO PVP. Others may feel the same, others may not. Everyone has a different perspective on it.

Zergs were created by @ZOS as a by product of the addition of Champion Points, Shield Stacking and one shot builds. If every V14 or what ever level was on the same level power wise like before CP, people wouldn't need to Zerg.

You should be able to kill another player if you are skilled enough to do so, not by how much CP you have or outlasting them with an endless shield or regen. Casting Spells with light attacks and animation cancelling doesn't make you a great PVP player. Anyone can click 1,2 + left mouse button so why does this game actually reward that with one shot kills? Seriously, where's the skill in that? IC had 50% damage reduction done yet that same tactic still works with Bows and 2h weapons. Yes, you can dodge if you see those coming, but when your hit in the back, your done.

A great pvper cannot kill an equally great pvper with 100's more CP. The other player just does too much damage/doesn't take enough damage or can regen their way through the fight. IMO You should not be able to kill a player with 25k health in 3 hits, I don't care what your build, class or dps is, it shouldn't happen.

When Emperor buffs are so strong that a Zerg of 10 can't take out 1 Emperor, that's not a L2P issue IMO, that's a poor game design in the first place. Yes, there should be a buff for being Emperor, should it give you such a huge advantage you can live through 10 people attacking you, NO.

IMO if you want to get rid of Zergs, then the problems creating them must go away first. Otherwise people will continue to do what they must to survive.

No one wants to be face rolled over and over yet that's exactly what's happening depending on whether your on the opposite side of the Zerg, or the 1v1 against someone with a lot more CP, endless shields/regen or a one shot build.....

FireCowCommando

Its almost like there could be a system to divide players into different groups, so they could fight each other on equal footing.

That would be an awesome system! We could separate them into their own instance, and have a ranking system to help ensure everyone is having an enjoyable experience fighting similarly talented/geared/CP players.

I think we should call it, ELO system. I know that it sounds remarkably like the system first implemented in 1960, but i promise i thought of it first!

These instances could be an epic battleground! Thats what we could call them, battlegrounds!

And no, there doesnt need to be any rewards for being at the top of the system. I would instead suggest the implementation as a way for players to have more fun while playing the game. Crazy idea i know.

apostate9

briandivisionb16_ESO wrote: »

Zergs will hide in stealth e.g. in a random barn where nobody would check, no objectives in there. They will hide until enough enemy players are in one area and then run over them, usually doing this you can farm really decent AP. If you repeat it a few times you can net yourself a position on the top 100 players.

They call this a strategy. Like the ones you claim to use but haven't elucidated on.

Maybe this strategy works too well on you? Is that the cause of all this saltiness? I mean you broadly derided like 50% of the population of Cyrodiil as pugs, bombzergs, or whatever...so you must be better than that, right?

so I guess I can't figure out why a barn farm has you so steamed? Didn't see it coming...or?!

See, when a "good" player claims to have been beaten by a "bad" player because the bad player
'bad-ed" them to death, that's often called "scrubiness" in gamer parlance and it reflects on the actual skill level of the loser, not the winner. See this awesome and informative article:

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub


The game in your head sounds great, the one where undisclosed strategies are executed all strategic-like (and work against vastly greater numbers of enemies) by awesome players who are....awesome for reasons unrelated to their ability to win-- but that isn't the one your opponents are playing. In ESO, 5 guys don't beat 50 and they shouldn't.

rfennell_ESO

The solution is simple.

Reduce AP gains for groups.

Nothing else will work.

mrdankles

WE NEED ARENA PVP

Asherons_Call

"PVP needs more strategery"

- George W Bush

briandivisionb16_ESO

apostate9 wrote: »

you broadly derided like 50% of the population of Cyrodiil as pugs, bombzergs, or whatever...so you must be better than that, right?

I resent that.
This language 'pugs' 'bombzergs' isn't meant to stereotype. It is simply the language everyone is using.
I'm sorry. Thank you apostate for bringing this to light, though. I completely agree there should be no such thing as any of these, OK -derogatory- words, but basically the mechanics ZOS hands us at the moment sadly definies playstyles.

jnjdun_ESO

I never thought I would say this, but since things are ridiculous in PvP right now I'm going to voice my opinion.

We do need battlegrounds. Zergs just are not fun at all for a lot of people.
The devs could take a look at how Rift does their battlegrounds with the ELO and mercenary system they have.
That game has problems, but that was the most entertaining battleground type PvP I've ever played.

For open world cyrodiil type PvP the devs need to take a closer look at DAoC and ask themselves how did Mythic back in the day discourage zerg balls? Mind you, dark age still had zergs, but they most definitely did not and still do not have the zerg blobby thing that we have going on here.
Hint: No AoE caps (small bomb groups could wipe zergs if the zergs were dumb and standing too close to each other) and they had relatively long duration AoE crowd control. You did not want to be standing right on top of everybody when you ran into a group, because that other group is going to cast a mez on your whole team and then you are screwed.

Just some thoughts from an old school hooker PvP player.

rfennell_ESO

The play style absolutely deserves derogatory words.

But, thing is.. if grinding AP is your goal, the way to do is be in a aeing blob that overwhelms people based on numbers.

There is little to no skill involved in the play style past "follow crown" and having voice communications.

They do it because it's easy and it gives them good AP. Take away the good AP and they won't do it as much.