Constructive criticism! PvP is lacking

apostate9

Olivierko wrote: »

I love it when people defend their way of playing trying to convince themselves that they enjoy playing the game in 2 fps and that it was 'how Zenimax intended' it to be.

Just lovely guys, a tear of joy slips down my cheek.

I love it when random people on the Internets feel like others need to defend their way of playing at all.

You can play Errol Flynn all you want bro, but you don't get to make 50,000 people come do it with you. It is the Alliance War, not the Alliance Cage-Match, the Alliance Pirate Ship, or the Alliance boxing ring.

Bad server performance has little to do with this thread, so yeah.

apostate9

briandivisionb16_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

Maidenname wrote: »

Zergs, isn't that what Zenemax has been showing us in their advertisement since Day1?

*edited for clarity* (I worked hard on this lol:)


But lets be serious because we're going round in circles now. (Spamming Impulse and Steel Tornado?) Hahaha

I understand that you think this is true, and I understand that you feel spamming single target skills with the 2 button and rolling round on the ground is more enlightened play than spamming AOE with the 4 button, but you're still wrong and will always be meh at ESO PVP until you figure it out. However, you would probably be really good at Mortal Kombat?

bhagwad

New player here. I've just come from 3 years of Guild Wars 2. They have something called "Structured PvP" or sPvP. Basically arenas of 5 people fighting around an objective. All player gear levels are equalized and all skills are unlocked while PvP'ing.

Would you find this to be a better solution?

catalyst10e

Also a bit of a noob here. I'd just like to point out a few things. Putting penalties on large groups wont solve anything, it just means instead of 1 group of 20, you'll see 2 groups of 10 to get around the penalty. Nothing gets solved, and the forums flood with people angry at having to work around the mechanics. (which, players should have to work around mechanics when the mechanics allow for such large numbers) Even if you were to remove groups altogether, people would find a way to group up and still AP farm and such.

I play a magicka Sorcerer, between my job and family, I get a good 2-3 hours of play a day (or every other day) I'm a vet rank 3, I do alright in PVP. Not great or amazing, but good. Even with decent skills, if I'm out in the world alone, I'm getting ganked, no question about it. (Either people hiding out just outside the keep, or just out exploring) Soon as I run into 2 or 3 people traveling together, the best I can hope for is to spam my shield and Teleport away. If ZOS were to implement penalties to large groups to accommodate the few people who want duels, You wont see anyone playing anything other than NightBlade. One NightBlade stealth kills another, then a 3rd from stealth kills that guy, and suddenly there's just a pile of players...

Bottom line, PVP is Zerging. As previously stated, a group of 6 people shouldn't be able to kill an army of 20, it's not a power fantasy it's an Alliance War.

AshTal

Didn't read all of this got as far as Zerg is crap, game play is no fun and ruins the game for others which I agree with.

The problem is the only way to beat a Zerg is with another Zerg. It is so very very rare these days that I think I have actually helped my team win. Either we win because we out number them 3 to 1 or we get all slaughtered because they outnumber us or have an uber character who can kill 20 players unless they run as an AOE spamming Zerg fest.

AOE damage should never be higher than single target damage however in every major battle my death sheet reads. Steel tornado, bat swarm, proximity detonation and just multiple that by as many hit points as I have.

I would like it if tatics meant more, if spamming one attack over and over wasn't the answer but it is and not much we can do about it.

SneaK

catalyst10e wrote: »

AOE damage should never be higher than single target damage however in every major battle my death sheet reads. Steel tornado, bat swarm, proximity detonation and just multiple that by as many hit points as I have.

I would like it if tatics meant more, if spamming one attack over and over wasn't the answer but it is and not much we can do about it.

I don't think the actual skill being used even matters though, and that's the point. Sheer numbers are winning every time, which is actually a byproduct of the dmg nerfs to some of the skills you just listed.

If a group of 24 people are rolling through everyone with timed proxy dets/swarms/tornado spam, I actually wouldn't consider that an unorganized zerg. They are obviously equipped to be running together and will undoubtedly do a lot of damage. Problem is, there is no counter at the moment except more numbers. If AOE's weren't capped like they are, and siege was buffed, there would be another option to bring down that group aside from outnumbering them.

kevlarto_ESO

I have to admit, I never really thought about the top players being casual, some how that name did not cross my mind, I do agree just because some one has lots of AP does not make them a skilled player either, only skilled in manipulating numbers I guess, or friends to play their account or very little sleep,,LOL

briandivisionb16_ESO

SneaK wrote: »

Problem is, there is no counter at the moment except more numbers.

^^^

briandivisionb16_ESO

Further reading:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/88049/do-you-think-there-should-be-an-aoe-cap/p1 “Do you think there should be an AOE cap?” The vote results were [No: 87% 3374] [Yes: 12% 486]
http://tamrielfoundry.com/2014/04/eso-target-caps/ Article by Atropos designer of the biggest PvP forum. Against AOE cap.
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/number-of-targets-hit-by-aoe/ More
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/the-case-for-aoe-per-cast-target-caps/ More
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/88466/aoe-cap-eliminates-strategy-for-both-aoe-and-single-target very true
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/search?Page=p1&Search=aoe+cap Need I go on? 61 pages! 90% of which are against AOE cap.

Not sure how much more "adapt you noob." spiel I can take.

Can you imagine on front box of ESO?
"Elder Scrolls supports group fights! In fact, if you are in a group of more than 6 people you will take 50% less damage!"
Can you imagine how many people would just put the game back on the shelf? Hm.

RAGUNAnoOne

great post, I hate zergs and I also feel like crap being in a zerg (especially when I get stuck with the teabagging obnoxious types which often seems to be the case). but unless you are in a zerg unless you are VR 16 you might as well be a clay pot and if they see you nothing can save you! cloak: fails because they hit you with ranged hits always at the right time to negate it, expedition skills: at least one person has rapid maneuver and NBs spam ambush, Bolt escape:once again NB ambush, that healing jab morph: AOE cap makes it next to useless.

Gamertaglemieux

briandivisionb16_ESO wrote: »

My friend Jeremy is 50 years old and needs AP for his Cyrodiil boxes. He is a Nightblade bow user. He hardly ever PvPs. On his own he dies to most players. Yet after only 3 nights of bombgrouping is RANK 5 on the leaderboard. The group leaders tells him to slot an AoE so he does that and the 23 other Jeremys in the group are soon competing for alliance emporership.


Most zergs are casual players who just bunch together usually on teamspeak for a laugh. See, there's little to do in this game for mass numbers so you can't blame them.Hypocritically, I've run with these guilds before. One had a 'drunken PvP night' and ran around with no gear on, quite funny. I don't drink so It soon got stale for me.

Most zergs have hundreds upon hundreds of members and accept anyone, recruiting indiscriminately, more the merrier.

Problem
These casual guilds are destroying competitive players.
These casual zergtrains are destroying players that like to strategize.

I am sorry. No. Forgive me.

The way the game works is destroying competitive players.
The way the game works is destroying players that like to strategize.

How can you strategize against a superior number in ESO? Players can't compete with AoE caps and situations where numbers trump tactics. Every. Time.
Why and how the mechanics of the game favour superior number has been explained quite a few times, you can read up on the specifics in a few threads here:

Spoiler

I will add here the threads that explain botched mechanics later.

Now I expect a few replies saying 'Oh try this skill,' or 'this siege weapon works' but ZOS, listen and trust players that are in dedicated PvP guilds with 100+ in game days played. On our accounts we've played since launch. Majority of it in Cyrodiil.

Are we hypocritical for staying this long and being facerolled by Zergs? Yes.
Do we feel that with some changes this game can break through and improve? Most definitely.

To summarise my above points: competitiveness and strategy in your PvP aspect is at an all time low.
Orsinium will be great competition for the PvE'ers. The leaderboards are something I might even try myself! Now tell us @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom ...How are you going to fix PvP for ME?

I don't play in casual bombgroup guilds with 'whoever is online' I find it stupid and boring. I like to compete against other players such as myself. Like all competitive sports I want to know how good I can get and demonstrate it to other people. Or how decent our smallscale group is against other smallscale groups.
I mean, these bombgroup guilds go under all the time. Only to be replaced with another guild that does the same and fades out again. The pattern repeats itself.

I have a nagging feeling that Zenimax thinks they are catering towards group fights. I have a feeling that they have the policy to focus on the masses.
Despite this Zenimax, you aren't catering towards group fights at all. You aren't catering towards your playerbase majority.
Zos you're catering towards numbers. Not. The. Same.

What is AP farming? (Yes 'AP farming' is a term in ESO)
I thought I would cover this to emphasise how streamlined 'PvP' is currently.

For the sake of argument, take a look at actual PvPers such as SypherPK.
Our Sypher never runs with a bombgroup he just PvPs. Why is he never on the top 100 players? Because he doesn't farm AP.

Farming AP is where you recruit as many people as possible to 'farm' enemy players for alliance points. FARMING enemy players. I mean its like we are NPCs. Remember good old Jeremy? He's having a right laugh. But hey, at least he can buy cool shiny things with his AP.
Zergs will hide in stealth e.g. in a random barn where nobody would check, no objectives in there. They will hide until enough enemy players are in one area and then run over them, usually doing this you can farm really decent AP. If you repeat it a few times you can net yourself a position on the top 100 players.

Of course we don't blame Jeremy, its his style of play and his way to get gear.

Next post will be for solutions please feel free to quote these questions with your ideas:

Really wanted to read all the post but it seemed to turn into a MLG try hard anger rant wall of text.

Be nice if you could edit the post to be little more concise. May have lot good points.

teladoy

Everybody thought that the pvp tha will bring ESO would be amazing, but not more far away from the true.

I love PVP, I love battlegrounds and I love MOBA games.

MOBA games offers the almost perfect scenario to create an amazing competitive pvp in equal conditions, everybody starts with the same conditions, numbers of players vs players is the same and everything relies in the skill of who is playing, and even SO you have 1000 of trolls...

So how can you expect that in such a masive PvP scale eveything will be under control, with fair conditions?

Problems in ESO pvp architecture:

Massive number of players, the outnumbered situation is a reality, not only in the game, also in real life. That's it, there is nothing to do, in the middle Ages armies had no buffs and no developers to balance the situation in the war. The same applies to the game.


My suggestion would be try to control the situation with improvements.

For example many people go in Cyrodill and they have no idea what they are doing, they just follow others and these others can not be also reliable, because sometimes also don't know what they are doing or how to play.

I would create a more interactive map of Cyrodill, that would be a "Map that is alive", indicanting more stuffs, like:

- Castle under attack.
- If you invade, marking the points that should/advisable be conquered first.
- Marking where is moving the enemy and the allies, displaying also the number. This would be very good, so you know where to go or fly away.. depending.
- Marking objetives and leading people to what should be advisable to do.
- I would reduce the magnitude of the map of Cyrodill.
- and more ideas...

I mean I think you know what I trying to say.

What I don't like of the pvp in ESO is:

- People can play brainless.
- Induces to the no organization and chaos.
- Induces to a big mass of players acting like do a mass without leader, without clear objetives and etc.
- Not a clear open and close phase in pvp, you don't feel any reward for conquer a castle.
- You don't feel too much your effort in pvp, is more like, you know you are helping and doing your part, because 1+1 is 2. But! your specific effort that you can appreciate... you can't.

Well and etc etc etc.

dantator

In one of the recent ESO live, ZOS said "we are looking into removing aoe caps." I had a forum post on aoe caps and I took on the same point of view. I agree aoe caps discourages smaller groups and competitive ones too.

Sypher

After over a year of PvP.

If they don't introduce new forms of PvP or drastically change our current pvp options, the PvP community will slowly wither down.

I agree with post and it is a very urgent topic that ZOS needs to consider soon rather than later.

Bhakura

Sigh another one of those threads ...
OP, could you please explain to me how i managed to end up with gold reward bag while i was never in such a zerg bomb group running around with 70 cp, with some v14 gear ...
And yes i know what you thinking now, no did not play 24/7, infact, only started PVPing 10 days in on azura star EU and havent played each and every single day, but still manage to end up with 1.8 mil ap collected. Without zerging running naked aoeing blindly.

I see alot of people that are simply EXTREMELY bad in combat mechanics. Im not a min maxer, hence the v14 gear that should be upgraded for a few little points in whatever more.
Seriously if a casual player like me can manage to get gold bag reward without zerg bombing anyone can and this threads topic is simply exaggerated.

Olivierko

Bhakura wrote: »

Seriously if a casual player like me can manage to get gold bag reward without zerg bombing anyone can and this threads topic is simply exaggerated.

You obviously didn't read the thread, this is not an issue whether or not it's hard to earn alliance points, this is an issue where zerging is too rewarding with current aoe caps etc. This in turn ruins gameplay overall, both experience-wise and performance-wise.

AllPlayAndNoWork

SneaK wrote: »

Buff Magic/Prox Detonation

Buff siege damage

Those two things would dramatically help in fighting back against zergs, it's pretty simple.

I kind of agree. Buff detto and steel tornado so it exponentially does more damage the more people it hits. AND discount the damage for the first few players it hits. These are powerful AoE skills that are being used for single target damage and that ain't right.

And seize damage should really hurt.

Bhakura

Umm how is an even stronger prox detonation going to help against zerg blobs, it will them only make them stronger ...
Zerg blobs are this powerfull because of strong aoes and thats why so many do it, its i win button, just spam aoes.
Aoes need to to get nerfed hard and single targets buffed, its that simple. An aoe should never do more damage then a single target, infact cant think of any other game where Aoes are stronger then single target hits.

briandivisionb16_ESO

Bhakura wrote: »

Umm how is an even stronger prox detonation going to help against zerg blobs, it will them only make them stronger ...
Zerg blobs are this powerfull because of strong aoes and thats why so many do it, its i win button, just spam aoes.
Aoes need to to get nerfed hard and single targets buffed, its that simple. An aoe should never do more damage then a single target, infact cant think of any other game where Aoes are stronger then single target hits.

Zerg blobs shouldn't be able to use prox det : if more allies in vicinity then skill doesn't work.
And AoE caps should be totally removed

Olivierko

briandivisionb16_ESO wrote: »

Zerg blobs shouldn't be able to use prox det : if more allies in vicinity then skill doesn't work.
And AoE caps should be totally removed

I just don't understand why a skill that was intended to damage groups has a cap for number of targets it may hit.

If this cap was removed and the damage increased even further based on targets it would be a great start to the issue at hand.

reften

briandivisionb16_ESO wrote: »

My friend Jeremy is 50 years old and needs AP for his Cyrodiil boxes.

Most zergs have hundreds upon hundreds of members and accept anyone, recruiting indiscriminately, more the merrier.

#1 - "needs"...nope, wants.
#2 - So wrong. Last night my group ran with about 16-20. We ran into other groups, some bigger some smaller. We wiped several times, and took out groups twice our size.
#3 - I solo quite well in PvP. Tag along with the bigger groups, pick my fights, or go in the sewers to gank.
#4 - Scout quests, and dailies are always an option

PvP is a lot of fun, options a plenty. Get a group of 4-6 and go take out resources, flag some keeps, help defend a keep. AP will come.

vamp_emily

Reduce AP
I read on here someone suggested reducing AP. I am totally against that. I do wish they would some how reward people more for repairing. For example, 1 rock for repairs costs 300AP but when I repair I get something like 27AP in return. If everyone repaired, then I would maybe be ok with that. However, allot of people don’t repair and just run around doing other things. This hurts the people who take pride in their Alliance. I have heard people sell their AP, or something in that nature, which I think is wrong. ZOS should give armor and gold for rewards like they have been doing, but don’t let PvP players buy armor with their AP. AP should be for sieges and repairing supplies.

I would like to thank everyone in DC that spends their time, AP, and gold in repairing our walls. You are the true warriors that really help our Alliance in protecting our keeps.

For those that don’t repair, I turn you over and spank you with my sword! Start helping out more, there is no reason for leaving walls down, or damaged. Further more, there is no reason why only one or two people should be responsible for repairing.

Zerg
I freaking love Zerges! This is when our Alliance really works together. Most the time I am fighting EPs Zerg and sometimes it does get overwhelming and if my alliance doesn’t have any players then yes we lose a bunch of keeps.

The most rewarding part of the game for me is when we ( DC ) are short handed fighting a zerg and win the battle. I love those OMG we did it moments.

PvP
Does anyone really know what ESO PvP is? I see allot of complaints about different things. Spamming, OP, Nerfing, zerging.. blah.. blah.. blah!

I am quoting this from elderscrollsonline.info/pvp:

“The general goal of the faction is to take under control and defend as many objectives as possible.”

In other words, quit crying, get out there and fight/defend for your Alliance! We are not all equal. Some players are great players and know how to tweak their characters, some are spammers, and some travel in large groups to survive.

This is war guys, its not for the flower pickers the don’t want to get blood on their armor. Play smart and you can beat a zerg. Play often you can be that next Emperor, play stupid and you will die and be on here crying about how you want everything handed to you.

J'skaar Habasi

Could be dementia, let me clarify. Your friend isn't elite enough for your group, so he finds a group of fellow 50-year olds to have a good time. The 50-year olds, tired of being killed, discover if they group together and use the skills they've been given that they can wipe the elite players. Now the 50-year olds are farming the "actual PvPers."

The elite players are now flummoxed. They know exactly what the old farts are going to do, but their group of 10 just can't defeat the group of 50. They're superior in every way, so their failure must be ZOS' fault.

I'm getting closer to 50 everyday, so I won't claim to have your strategic genius. I might just start attacking a group of 50 with more than 10. If you've been in these groups, you've heard the raid leader stress out over the portion that always chases shiny objects (Sorcs and NBs). You've also seen these groups spread out as they ride from keep to keep. Seems like there are some opportunities, but I'll simply defer to your strategic genius.

For those of you elites who want a place to play against "actual PvPers" may want to take one lesson from the 50-year olds. Rather than send hate tells to each other, maybe you should communicate with one another and choose your own campaign. Maybe you can come to some agreement to get the teenagers to stop doing what they do to cause lag, or stop using the skills that cause lag. As you know, in sports, players observe the written and unwritten rules. There's nothing preventing you elites from establishing an unwritten set of rules to play by. Publish the unwritten rules, get the elites to sign on, and ostracize those who don't play fairly. Soon the unwritten rules will take on a life of their own. Eh, you can just wait for ZOS to solve all your problems.

catalyst10e

The answer isn't less zerging, it's more, let me use my AP to hire NPCs to follow me.

Korah_Eaglecry

Egonieser wrote: »

I agree with most points, however I do not agree with Having godmode proxy dets and uncapped AoE, it is already exploited beyond belief.

All you need is a "organized" group with everyone having proxydet slotted.
Hide or stealth, wait for zerg to approach, leader gives command and makes everyone activate their proxy - pops rapidman and charges in the enemy zerg (which is twice or more bigger than theirs) and spreads out, but also making sure proxydet circles cover each other and the entire area between those 12 people - at the same time spamming devouring swarm, steel tornado, fire ring or w/e AoE ability they have slotted and you know what happens?
The massive zerg got wiped by 12 people literally the very second all the proxydets went off simultaneously.. So no - it does not need a buff, it just needs people who know how to use it and the EP on EU Azura use it very well at the moment, almost every single night.

I know it's a valid tactic and a skilled one, BUT it does exactly the thing you describe. 12 People should not have a godly power by any means, it just shouldn't happen. They use it to "grind" people and AP with little to no resistance not to bust up and prevent zergs. They in fact encourage them so they can farm them which just turns the tables and the problem is still there.

Rather, the problem should be stopped at it's roots. Give people more incentive to solo or do small groups and penalize large zergs drastically. You had a good idea about debuffs. Perhaps smth like x% damage reduction or x% healing reduction/increased incoming damage or such per each player in the group past say... 10 people. Would also make sense from a lore perspective as being in a large, unorganized crowd with *** going off everywhere makes you more disorientated, more susceptible to backstabbin', surprise attacks etc as your character is less aware of his surroundings and distracted/unable to focus well. So it could be easily "explainable" from a lore point of view why the debuff is in place.

I am not pro giving people even more Overpowered skills, proxy/magicka detonation already hits far too hard than it should do and people use it as a regular, common skill both in PvP and PvE and in solo encounters. Especially sorcerers - deadliest combo while dual weilding - Detonation+Curse (both 4 have seconds detonation time), then apply mages wrath (which has a 4 second execute range), within those 4 seconds use entropy for 20% dmg and 20% next spell bonus (total 40% increase) - pop a frag which will hit insanely hard - then both curse and detonation will fire off at the SAME time bringing even the tankiest chars down to their knees and mages wrath execute will kick in. And all this happens in 4 Seconds, the last 3 hits happen so fast and hit so hard you have no chance to heal or react, you also can't dodge out of it or escape, once applied, full force of it will kill very fast. And none of this would be possible without the detonation skill, it is just already a huge gamechanger for some builds, nevermind in the hands of skilled and organized players. So... no buffs to it please, my sorc already finds most encounters too easy with it.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. You want to punish Zergs for what small groups are doing?

Jesus you people crack me up.

starlizard70ub17_ESO

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

show previous quotes

ADarklore wrote: »

Um, y'all do realize that casual players are the majority in this game right? So what you're asking is to make things more difficult for the majority of players so the minority players can play their way. I don't think that makes a whole lot of financial sense for ZOS to do.

That might be true, but it would be make for better (more competetive) PvP and thats exactly his point, right?

Sadly no, this ^ is not the point. The point is for Zenimax to attract the most people they can to play the game, buy stuff in the store, etc, to make the most money they can to keep the game running.

Lefty_Lucy

briandivisionb16_ESO wrote: »

[*] Other

My favorite solution is one that ZOS promised us months ago. The PvP portion of the justice system.

Assuming my interpretation of this system is correct, this would bring open world PvP to all of ESO's maps. Players could decide to break the law and attack other players, or uphold the law and attack criminals. This type of PvP system has been very successful in other games, and the best part about it is how spontaneous and unstructured the fights are. Zergs won't have a chance to form if this system is implemented correctly.

I've been patiently waiting for this for a very long time. Each day that passes, ESO loses some of its spark for me. I'm very sad to say that, because ESO has the best combat system I have ever played. I hope ZOS stops putting chains on its own combat system. Embrace it, @ZOS_BrianWheeler .

Also, excellent post @briandivisionb16_ESO . Very well presented.



Edit: typo

Lefty_Lucy

Accidental double post >.<

icontested

briandivisionb16_ESO wrote: »

My friend Jeremy is 50 years old and needs AP for his Cyrodiil boxes. He is a Nightblade bow user. He hardly ever PvPs. On his own he dies to most players. Yet after only 3 nights of bombgrouping is RANK 5 on the leaderboard. The group leaders tells him to slot an AoE so he does that and the 23 other Jeremys in the group are soon competing for alliance emporership.


Most zergs are casual players who just bunch together usually on teamspeak for a laugh. See, there's little to do in this game for mass numbers so you can't blame them.Hypocritically, I've run with these guilds before. One had a 'drunken PvP night' and ran around with no gear on, quite funny. I don't drink so It soon got stale for me.

Most zergs have hundreds upon hundreds of members and accept anyone, recruiting indiscriminately, more the merrier.

Problem
These casual guilds are destroying competitive players.
These casual zergtrains are destroying players that like to strategize.

I am sorry. No. Forgive me.

The way the game works is destroying competitive players.
The way the game works is destroying players that like to strategize.

How can you strategize against a superior number in ESO? Players can't compete with AoE caps and situations where numbers trump tactics. Every. Time.
Why and how the mechanics of the game favour superior number has been explained quite a few times, you can read up on the specifics in a few threads here:

Spoiler

I will add here the threads that explain botched mechanics later.

Now I expect a few replies saying 'Oh try this skill,' or 'this siege weapon works' but ZOS, listen and trust players that are in dedicated PvP guilds with 100+ in game days played. On our accounts we've played since launch. Majority of it in Cyrodiil.

Are we hypocritical for staying this long and being facerolled by Zergs? Yes.
Do we feel that with some changes this game can break through and improve? Most definitely.

To summarise my above points: competitiveness and strategy in your PvP aspect is at an all time low.
Orsinium will be great competition for the PvE'ers. The leaderboards are something I might even try myself! Now tell us @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom ...How are you going to fix PvP for ME?

I don't play in casual bombgroup guilds with 'whoever is online' I find it stupid and boring. I like to compete against other players such as myself. Like all competitive sports I want to know how good I can get and demonstrate it to other people. Or how decent our smallscale group is against other smallscale groups.
I mean, these bombgroup guilds go under all the time. Only to be replaced with another guild that does the same and fades out again. The pattern repeats itself.

I have a nagging feeling that Zenimax thinks they are catering towards group fights. I have a feeling that they have the policy to focus on the masses.
Despite this Zenimax, you aren't catering towards group fights at all. You aren't catering towards your playerbase majority.
Zos you're catering towards numbers. Not. The. Same.

What is AP farming? (Yes 'AP farming' is a term in ESO)
I thought I would cover this to emphasise how streamlined 'PvP' is currently.

For the sake of argument, take a look at actual PvPers such as SypherPK.
Our Sypher never runs with a bombgroup he just PvPs. Why is he never on the top 100 players? Because he doesn't farm AP.

Farming AP is where you recruit as many people as possible to 'farm' enemy players for alliance points. FARMING enemy players. I mean its like we are NPCs. Remember good old Jeremy? He's having a right laugh. But hey, at least he can buy cool shiny things with his AP.
Zergs will hide in stealth e.g. in a random barn where nobody would check, no objectives in there. They will hide until enough enemy players are in one area and then run over them, usually doing this you can farm really decent AP. If you repeat it a few times you can net yourself a position on the top 100 players.

Of course we don't blame Jeremy, its his style of play and his way to get gear.

Next post will be for solutions please feel free to quote these questions with your ideas:

Sounds like you need to make like minded friends, hit kickstarter, and finally create your own game. The only thing stopping you.. Is you

Rayste

@briandivisionb16_ESO

I like a lot of the ideas especially gating access and removing guesting. Let's put some of the loyalty factor back into our pvp campaigns.

Another point I would like to interject and feel free to use this: Raids are capped at 12 man. Why aren't pvp groups? I realize you can still follow each other around but it makes it harder and more confusing especially for 'casuals'.

@ZOS_RichLambert Take a look.