Glass Motif in the Crown Store - Discussion - Counter Argument - Solutions

Cherryblossom

Saltypretzels wrote: »

Cherryblossom wrote: »

There is a difference between Convenience and P2W. They don't equate to each other..

Says who? Convenience is whatever the devs want it to be.

For people who just want a max level character wearing legendary equipment, wouldn't it be quite convenient just to buy it rather than to spend months playing the game?

This is the problem with using convenience as a standard. By definition a "standard" is something that has an agreed upon definition... No one here seems to agree on what convenience really means.

What you describe is P2W, you are stretching it to sound like Convenience. ZOS current stand point is nothing that gives an advantage. The clothing and mounts, more bag space, faster mounts, do not give a advantage they are purely convenience.

I'm not ZOS's greatest fan, but I do not believe at any point there will be Legendary equipment buyable within the Crown Store. I honestly think there is no slippery slope involved here.

Saltypretzels

Cherryblossom wrote: »

What you describe is P2W, you are stretching it to sound like Convenience. ZOS current stand point is nothing that gives an advantage. The clothing and mounts, more bag space, faster mounts, do not give a advantage they are purely convenience.

I'm not ZOS's greatest fan, but I do not believe at any point there will be Legendary equipment buyable within the Crown Store. I honestly think there is no slippery slope involved here.

It already is there. The grind for items that are also in the store has gotten more onerous (Dwemer moderate grind has turned into the Glass extreme grind).

Initially there were not XP pots, and now there are. (paying to level more quickly). Next step here will be better XP potions that maybe give 20% or 50%, eventually potions that will give a character 10+ levels. It will happen, it happens in all games that have these stores.

Seems pretty obvious to me.

Cherryblossom

angelyn wrote: »

TLDR
After doing this(adding crafting mats to crown store), they can add any rare in game item to the crown store and label it as "convenience".

ZOS will implement as much grind as possible, in order to generate as much inconvenience as possible, so that they can maximise profits by selling "convenience " to players.

EDIT: reasoning/link/headings/TLDR

It's not a grind to get the item it appears to be luck! They should look at how you get this item.

They should make it like Dwemer, where you have a good chance of getting it from specific mobs. Or in containers in places you find those mobs.

It's also not possible to add more grind to this game

kupacmac

I understand that people who are opposed to this are passionate about it, but in my opinion you're blowing this out of proportion. Some people are even calling this P2W. This isn't even close to P2W no matter how you try to spin it that way. Go try a game like Neverwinter or LOTRO and you'll see how insignificant this issue really is. Slippery slope? It's a crafting style. It gives you zero advantage in game... nada. It's strictly and utterly cosmetic. People running around in Glass style armor are no more powerful than people who are in another style. We're not forced to acquire the Glass motif, it's completely optional and gives you absolutely nothing over someone who chooses to pass on it. So gimmie a break with the whole "slippery slope" and "contrived grind to force people to the crown store" arguments. It's a freaking armor style, and an ugly one at that.

xXNesTXx

BalticBlues wrote: »

xXNesTXx wrote: »

DLC = 2500 crowns
Glass Style = 5000 crowns

I paid happily 2500 crowns for the IC including the Glass style. However, after I found that with 2 hours play time a day I have next to zero chance to collect the set, I feel cheated. Locking paid content behind an almost impossible grinding wall IMHO is dishonest.

IMHO, this selling approach is worse than F2P.

I do not like F2P, but at least that is an honest approach. Instead selling a game as B2P and then charging again for DLC content access looks like cheating to me. I happily pay for all DLC, but not for all DLC plus DLC content access.

ZOS, either use a fair B2P model where people have fair access to paid DLC,
or make your game F2P with a full blown crown store.

"You can't have your cake and eat it too."
ZOS thinks they found a way. But this destroys the loyalty of their customers.

Impossible? I don't think so.....maybe hard to get, but not impossible.....

Sometimes i can't understand to the players...first, all are claiming for a new content with hard challenges, and then when they have these challenges.....are impossible....

Sorry but I don't see nothing dishonest in all of this, and is very very very far to be a b2p (Glass Style is only a ugly cosmetic, completely unnecessary to play any part of this game) and repeat, the fault is of the players who pay for have this things by the easiest and fastest way, is not fault of ZoS who only want easy money.....who does not want this?

AronGrayblood

If this was awesome armor style or really unique one.... like witcher bear armor but this.... its just ugly reskin that you can get other way or buy from players.... I mean sure grinding for it sucks if you really belive you "need" it... but honestly? What good it gives you beside being coverd in glass? The most importent part of it is that you CAN get it in game wihout paying premium currency, sure its hard probably too hard but it is totaly possible and do able...

IF you based your crafting upon the idea that you will make unique items and then sell them to players then i am sorry for your lose but you were only using the fact that crafting style is unique and people need to grind for it which is as bad move as the one that ZOS did, becouse you were not selling it for as much it was worth...

Prehaps if this was really unique style, if that was style i belived to be my desired thing.... With new models offering unique look but as it stands now it is just resking. And if people are ok with paying 50$ then ok, some will always be ok with that, but it does not seam evrything is broken....

Slurg

BalticBlues wrote: »

xXNesTXx wrote: »

DLC = 2500 crowns
Glass Style = 5000 crowns

I paid happily 2500 crowns for the IC including the Glass style. However, after I found that with 2 hours play time a day I have next to zero chance to collect the set, I feel cheated. Locking paid content behind an almost impossible grinding wall IMHO is dishonest.

IMHO, this selling approach is worse than F2P.

I do not like F2P, but at least that is an honest approach. Instead selling a game as B2P and then charging again for DLC content access looks like cheating to me. I happily pay for all DLC, but not for all DLC plus DLC content access.

ZOS, either use a fair B2P model where people have fair access to paid DLC,
or make your game F2P with a full blown crown store.

"You can't have your cake and eat it too."
ZOS thinks they found a way. But this destroys the loyalty of their customers.

Actually glass armor was included in the base patch. You didn't pay for that. Xivkyn is the style that you paid to have a chance to find in the Imperial City DLC.

xXNesTXx

Slurg wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

xXNesTXx wrote: »

DLC = 2500 crowns
Glass Style = 5000 crowns

I paid happily 2500 crowns for the IC including the Glass style. However, after I found that with 2 hours play time a day I have next to zero chance to collect the set, I feel cheated. Locking paid content behind an almost impossible grinding wall IMHO is dishonest.

IMHO, this selling approach is worse than F2P.

I do not like F2P, but at least that is an honest approach. Instead selling a game as B2P and then charging again for DLC content access looks like cheating to me. I happily pay for all DLC, but not for all DLC plus DLC content access.

ZOS, either use a fair B2P model where people have fair access to paid DLC,
or make your game F2P with a full blown crown store.

"You can't have your cake and eat it too."
ZOS thinks they found a way. But this destroys the loyalty of their customers.

Actually glass armor was included in the base patch. You didn't pay for that. Xivkyn is the style that you paid to have a chance to find in the Imperial City DLC.

In that case, this thread not have any sense

Enraged_Tiki_Torch

I agree, they are only hurting their in-game economy by selling highly desirable items in the crown store. It isn't P2W but over the long term, it's just hurting the game.

BalticBlues

Cherryblossom wrote: »

Actually glass armor was included in the base patch. You didn't pay for that.

Thanks for the clarification. So ESO is now B2P plus a F2P crown shop. For the complete game, people have buy 2500 crowns to play the DLC and 5000 crowns to unlock the motif. Unlocking the complete motif ingame is as good as impossible with an average player's daily playtime.

Knootewoot

I don't care about motif's anymore since I never looted any. I just wear costumes. Some of them are really great. The only sad thing is that I cannot show my guildtabard over my costume.

Elloa

xXNesTXx wrote: »

Slurg wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

xXNesTXx wrote: »

DLC = 2500 crowns
Glass Style = 5000 crowns

I paid happily 2500 crowns for the IC including the Glass style. However, after I found that with 2 hours play time a day I have next to zero chance to collect the set, I feel cheated. Locking paid content behind an almost impossible grinding wall IMHO is dishonest.

IMHO, this selling approach is worse than F2P.

I do not like F2P, but at least that is an honest approach. Instead selling a game as B2P and then charging again for DLC content access looks like cheating to me. I happily pay for all DLC, but not for all DLC plus DLC content access.

ZOS, either use a fair B2P model where people have fair access to paid DLC,
or make your game F2P with a full blown crown store.

"You can't have your cake and eat it too."
ZOS thinks they found a way. But this destroys the loyalty of their customers.

Actually glass armor was included in the base patch. You didn't pay for that. Xivkyn is the style that you paid to have a chance to find in the Imperial City DLC.

In that case, this thread not have any sense

Yes it does. The fact that the glass motif had been introduced with Update7 and not Imperial City, do not change the fact that its not fair that the introduction of the Glass Motif in the Crown Store affect the crafting and the trading.

Crafting and Trading are two aspect of this game that have their importance. So, once more. Yes, the Glass Motif is not breaking the PVE and PVP of the game. But it affect the economy. I'm curious to know the reactions of the players once a item introduced n the Crown Store will affect PVE or PVP. What will be your reaction then.

EIGHTS

If ZOS put the Glass motif book in Crown store when IC is available.
There won't be those argument.

Alucardo

While I like the fact they added it to the store, I completely agree that the time it was added was far too short. They have said that the Xivkyn motif will eventually be available too, but haven't even mentioned when. I'm guessing it'll be around the time Orsinium is released. They could have added them together, giving people a chance to obtain them through hard work first.
Hopefully they will do this in the future (not add something rare, then make it immediately available to purchase).
I guess the other downside is, now when I see people wearing glass armour I just think, "Hmph. You probably bought that", instead of, "Wow. Now there's an expert crafter with some serious dedication". It'd be like having the ability to buy titles that you didn't earn.
Having said that, there are people who just can't or don't have time to track this stuff down - which is why I'm for it to be in the crown store. It just shouldn't be available straight away.

sekou_trayvond

I really don't get the uproar over this. Well, I do but, yeah...best not to cast aspersions upon my fellow gamers.

I'm happily grinding still for the full set. Completely unbothered by the crown store access and pleased that ZoS is making some gold of their own off the motif.

bcamors_ESO

For me the glass motif falls under cosmetic and there has always been a strong bias in FTP games for that to be in the realms of pay. Also crafters received 2-3 new sets, no? In my opinion if there is an argument to be made perhaps it should be to make those more viable, but frankly I think that they are.

Hlaadriel

Runaan wrote: »

I love her accent, lost myself after listening to her for a couple seconds.
This discussion is over for me.

I think that is why we all love @Elloa, as she has really good arguments on top of the lovely accent

Cadbury

Hlaadriel wrote: »

Runaan wrote: »

I love her accent, lost myself after listening to her for a couple seconds.
This discussion is over for me.

I think that is why we all love @Elloa, as she has really good arguments on top of the lovely accent

It's important to not let someone's "e-celebrity" status influence your decisions. Society has a bad habit of valuing a person's opinion dependent on their popularity/notoriety.

jonjees

actually I strongly believe that in every mmo, there must be some cosmetic items or skills that just cant be simply bought from crown store or cash shop etc, so that it would create a value to the grind and be somewhat unique.

etc the xivkyn polymorphs costumes, im sure it would be in crown store soon, but it really devalues it the moment it is in store, no one will have need to grind for stones and try their luck at the boxes.

then IC is really finished, because what else can you buy with stones thats worth the time to grind for it.

players will do the grind if its rewarding and more so if they know they will look unique or have a special skills set.

RVikary

Cadbury wrote: »

Hlaadriel wrote: »

Runaan wrote: »

I love her accent, lost myself after listening to her for a couple seconds.
This discussion is over for me.

I think that is why we all love @Elloa, as she has really good arguments on top of the lovely accent

It's important to not let someone's "e-celebrity" status influence your decisions. Society has a bad habit of valuing a person's opinion dependent on their popularity/notoriety.

Agreeing with Elloa has nothing to do with her status as a youtuber/streamer. If that was the case even more people would ignore this since Deltia, for example, who is more influential than her didn't even comment on the matter (that I know of anyway).

Like her, I see this way of introducing Glass motifs to be simply wrong. And that made me give up on developing my crafter, a character I used only for myself and not to sell on the market and was trying to very casually get all motifs. Now I decided to not even try the writs anymore because it's going to make me feel sad about it.

Feradac

I agree that the addition of the Glass motif and the crafting materials needed to make it being added to the Crown Store is detrimental to the long term health of the game, especially if this focus on the Crown Store continues. There are other things that could be added to the store that would sell just as well and not take away portions of the gameplay, like the Glass motif has done. Off the top of my head I can think of a "barbershop," costume slots for individual armor pieces, etc. Things like this, people would buy, and the health and economy of the game would not suffer.

I sincerely hope Zenimax seriously considers altering their current development route. They had such a strong reputation of listening to player feedback, previously.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Hlaadriel wrote: »

Runaan wrote: »

I love her accent, lost myself after listening to her for a couple seconds.
This discussion is over for me.

I think that is why we all love @Elloa, as she has really good arguments on top of the lovely accent

No, we do not *ALL* love Elloa. Some of us do, some of us don't. (Sorry @Elloa , nothing personal, I just hate "personality cult" in any form). And in this case I strongly disagree with her when she says "Glass motif in the Crown Store affects the economy". It doesn't *affect* the economy. It *impacts* the economy.

An economy cannot be really affected, hurt or destroyed. It consists in supply and demand and adjusts automatically. It's "alive". It might evolve in a way that doesn't suit *some* sellers or *some* buyers but it CANNOT be "harmed". These people will in turn have to adjust. That's how it works, IRL and in game. EVERYTHING, EVERYDAY *impacts* the economy. People adjust. It's not "negative" or "positive", it's just "change" or "evolution".

Yes, people who buy the motif for IRL cash will be able to sell crafted gear with glass motif ingame, make gold and purchase gear instead of grinding it. It would be P2W IF and ONLY IF there were no other way to make money ingame, but there ARE plenty of other ways to make money ingame. Believe me, I don't have the glass motif, I'm no super-power PvEer, and I still make more money ingame than I could ever spend. On top of that, gold itself is pretty much a convenience item ingame since you can farm everything yourself. Glass motif is NOT P2W.

The ONE and ONLY item in the Crown Store that is TRULY P2W is the imperial upgrade. Each race has different powerful passives and having the choice between 10 races instead of 3 to build a character is a very strong, winning advantage. BUT it has been here since launch, not since B2P and Crown Store. It is P2W because there is no way to get the same advantage ingame, at all.

A guildie of mine just told us tonight that he had bought the glass motif from the crown store. I refrained from laughing at him saying "you've been tricked by ZOS". Because it gives me two strong advantages :
1/ He will craft glass stuff for me if I need/want it, for free
2/ Thanks to people like him, I don't have to pay for playing the game (apart from base game and DLC, which is quite significantly cheaper than base game + ESO+ ).

If there was no crown store, I'd still have to pay a sub. I'd probably do it and consider it OK, but since it's possible for me to get the same thing cheaper because some people like to buy stuff from the crown store, I prefer to look at the benefit for me rather at some imaginary negative impact for me ingame - because frankly, there are none).

Iluvrien

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

If there was no crown store, I'd still have to pay a sub. I'd probably do it and consider it OK, but since it's possible for me to get the same thing cheaper because some people like to buy stuff from the crown store, I prefer to look at the benefit for me rather at some imaginary negative impact for me ingame - because frankly, there are none).

And so because there is no negative impact for you, it is fine?

All well and good. On that basis as there is, for me, a negative impact and the only benefit is the entirely emphemeral* I will continue to look at this as a net loss and will continue to raise it as a point of concern on the forums and to ZOS through /feedback. Thanks.


[ "someone, somewhere, who buys this motif may be contributing to the part of ZOS's funding that is centered around actually producing content rather than funding the inclusion of other game-mechanics in the Crown Store." ]

akredon_ESO

I sold out and bought it. I wasnt going to waste any more time on this game than what i already had trying to get a crap ton of Fragments to make this. The writ system of farming it was stupid in my opinion they should have implemented something better.

Iluvrien

akredon_ESO wrote: »

I sold out and bought it. I wasnt going to waste any more time on this game than what i already had trying to get a crap ton of Fragments to make this. The writ system of farming it was stupid in my opinion they should have implemented something better.

And you have just shown to them that, at least in some cases, they made the right decision. It was made that difficult to drive people to the Crown Store. It drove you to the Crown Store. As far as ZOS is concerned that is probably "Mission Accomplished".

jcasini222ub17_ESO

Lol, @anitajoneb17_ESO probably the proudest statement of being a free rider I've seen in awhile, gave you an awesome for the honesty.

Tommy1979AtWar

@anitajoneb17_ESO Slightly off topic but since grammar lessons are being given can I ask whether you're using "impact" as a noun or a verb?

I ask because it's dependand on how the word "affect" is being used, personally I feel that @Elloa using "affect" as a verb in this instance would be correct as it has by your own admission influenced your being able to aquire glass items for free from a guild mate whom purchased it in the crown store, whether you personally feel he was "tricked" to do so or not is irrelevant as his decision has still influenced. And whilst a master blacksmith whom has took such time and effort to gain the motif through RNG is unlikely to simply give away those crafted items for free it has resulted in a negative "effect"(noun) upon the market as the items have lost their implied rarity value.

Crafting is an important part of many peoples gameplay and not just for enjoyment, some rely heavily on their crafting skills not only to earn gold to purchase items from other players (helping the market grow) but also to support guilds and new members (helping the player base to grow and succeed).

In summation I still agree that the decision to sell the glass motif in the crown store so soon after its release in game along with such an obviously prenerfed RNG in order to push more CS sales was wrong of ZOS, it's left a bitter taste in many peoples mouths and further adversely effected their views of the company as a whole.
I still think the glass items look ridiculous and as though a toddler has attacked them with crayons no matter which colour is applied but hey if looking silly is what some people enjoy then I'll happily continue to judge them in silence

Furthermore... since English is not the native tongue of Elloa I think her grasp of its complexities are pretty damn good, certainly better than my French or Flemish so it's worth considering how many languages oneself has taken the time to learn and commit to before commenting on someone elses usage of terms within.

Cadbury

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Hlaadriel wrote: »

Runaan wrote: »

I love her accent, lost myself after listening to her for a couple seconds.
This discussion is over for me.

I think that is why we all love @Elloa, as she has really good arguments on top of the lovely accent

No, we do not *ALL* love Elloa. Some of us do, some of us don't. (Sorry @Elloa , nothing personal, I just hate "personality cult" in any form). And in this case I strongly disagree with her when she says "Glass motif in the Crown Store affects the economy". It doesn't *affect* the economy. It *impacts* the economy.

An economy cannot be really affected, hurt or destroyed. It consists in supply and demand and adjusts automatically. It's "alive". It might evolve in a way that doesn't suit *some* sellers or *some* buyers but it CANNOT be "harmed". These people will in turn have to adjust. That's how it works, IRL and in game. EVERYTHING, EVERYDAY *impacts* the economy. People adjust. It's not "negative" or "positive", it's just "change" or "evolution".

Yes, people who buy the motif for IRL cash will be able to sell crafted gear with glass motif ingame, make gold and purchase gear instead of grinding it. It would be P2W IF and ONLY IF there were no other way to make money ingame, but there ARE plenty of other ways to make money ingame. Believe me, I don't have the glass motif, I'm no super-power PvEer, and I still make more money ingame than I could ever spend. On top of that, gold itself is pretty much a convenience item ingame since you can farm everything yourself. Glass motif is NOT P2W.

The ONE and ONLY item in the Crown Store that is TRULY P2W is the imperial upgrade. Each race has different powerful passives and having the choice between 10 races instead of 3 to build a character is a very strong, winning advantage. BUT it has been here since launch, not since B2P and Crown Store. It is P2W because there is no way to get the same advantage ingame, at all.

A guildie of mine just told us tonight that he had bought the glass motif from the crown store. I refrained from laughing at him saying "you've been tricked by ZOS". Because it gives me two strong advantages :
1/ He will craft glass stuff for me if I need/want it, for free
2/ Thanks to people like him, I don't have to pay for playing the game (apart from base game and DLC, which is quite significantly cheaper than base game + ESO+ ).

If there was no crown store, I'd still have to pay a sub. I'd probably do it and consider it OK, but since it's possible for me to get the same thing cheaper because some people like to buy stuff from the crown store, I prefer to look at the benefit for me rather at some imaginary negative impact for me ingame - because frankly, there are none).

I think I'll go and make some friends who happen to have the glass motif

Iluvrien

Cadbury wrote: »

I think I'll go and make some friends who happen to have the glass motif

The name for those friends used to be "dedicated crafters". Not anymore. After all, we have to "adjust" to a game where the most efficient way to become a sought-after crafter seems to be to pay real money for it while not, of course, being "affected" by the change.

Good times.

Katahdin

This is my first post on the forums. I had to log in and reply to this.

The uproar in this thread just caused me to log back into the game to just buy the motif with my crowns.

The main reason most people are upset is because this allows people to obtain the motif without paying them 100s of 1000s of gold for it in game. I've seen the prices people are asking for the pages and some are 250,000 gold and more per page. That is just nuts. The most gold I ever had at one time was 250,000 and it took me a LONG time to get it.

My tolerance for grind for the sake of grind is almost non existent. I work hard all day/week at my job to earn my paycheck and I play the game to get a few hours of escape from real life. Before you call me casual, I dont consider myself to be. I put plenty of hours into the game. I dont want to spend that time grinding a double RNG to MAYBE get one or two pieces a month if I am lucky. I also dont want to spend all my time grinding 100,000+ in gold for each piece of armor or weapon. I want to play the game the way I want to play it and that means I dont want to grind.

For people that enjoy the hunt and enjoy doing the same thing ad nausium to get the motif pieces, this does NOTHING to effect you. You can still go grind to your hearts content and earn the motif that way. And for those selling the pages, there seems to be plenty of people buying because the prices are staying high and you are making your gold. Its just not for me to do it that way and I wouldnt buy it in game even if it wasnt in the crown store.

So I am glad the motif is in the crown store and I look forward to when they release the Xivkyn motif.