Glass Motif in the Crown Store - Discussion - Counter Argument - Solutions

xaraan

I don't care that it's in the guild store.

BUT, I think they added it in waaaay too soon. They said eventually it would be added - didn't even make it a month

AND, I think they purposefully made it a hard grind to get to make the CS purchase more appealing.

Some bad practices there IMO.

Edit: also, now they are also selling mats for it. So how long until they start selling other mats? Since they control the grind (stuff like needing 150 mats to make a v16 chestpiece or needing Kuta and them not dropping from hirelings for months now, etc). All feels pretty shady to me.

angelyn

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

The fact that so many players are so butthurt by this is just amazing. It's a cosmetic style of armor not like your gonna have divine powers by having it.

TheValkyn wrote: »

These arguments are so blown out of proportions.

Malachite Shards are a crafting material, they are not a cosmetic item - crafting mats are used to create armour etc.

ZOS have put crafting mats in the crown store.

As I said earlier in this thread, many people thought this would never happen, and will be dissapointed. Whats planned for the crown store next?Since the grind to obtain V16 materials was also implemented , they may be thinking of now adding V16 mats to the crown store? After all, they've already put crafting materials in the crown store-" Incoming !Lorkhan's tears pack of 10, Sanded ruby Ash pack of 100, V16 enchanting runes pack of 10 ! All on the crown store "

Very slippery slope. To many people, putting crafting mats into the crown store is a sad day indeed, since they hoped that this wouldn't happen. To some people this has crossed the line.To other people it is a signal as to the direction the game/crown store is heading:

Step 1: Ensure F is a rare drop

Step 2:Ensure you need 10 of F to make 1 P

Step 3: Limit the opportunities to get F to 3 chances per day. 3 Chances will cost 280 mats.

Step 4: Ensure that you need 10 of P to make a G book.

Step 5: Ensure that to combine 10 F into 1 P, you have to pay 10k gold per 1 P. (Initially 25k gold)

Step 6: You will also need 10 M to make an S.You will need 70- to 90 M in order to get 7-9 S. M can be obtained by opening chests. You need S (10 m) in order to use your full G book. If 1 M dropped per chest you will need to open 70-90 chests minimum , to obtain suffient S to use your G book.

Step 5: Wait for players to realise that they will need 100 F ( limited to 3 chances a day) in order to make 1 P. 10 P can be combined with 10k gold per P in order to make a G book. If 3 F dropped daily it will take 30 days, 80000 mats, opening 70-90 chests minimum and 100k (At best!!!)to make a G book.

Step 6: Wait for player to realise the above and then tell them they will need over 1000 V in order to use Booklet G. V can only be obtained by killing mobs and you may get 1 per mob. Or you can use TV stones to buy at extortionate prices.

Step 7: Players will now have realised it's nigh impossible, and even if possible -all the fun is taken away. Offer G booklet(double the price of a DLC) and packs of 10 M in the Cash store for real money. Watch the $ roll in.

Step 8: See if anyone notices that you have put stacks of M in the cash shop. Hopefully they won't because they will be so excited to see G book on offer. If people buy G books, we know we can make an even more terrible grind for more items and if no one notices the 10 packs of M in the store we can add more things and charge more next time!

So many grinds implemented recently in order to make obtain things near impossible and a totally miserable experience, in order to drive people into the crown store.

Tonnopesce

I was saving a couple of crowns from the IC purchase and I’ve added the rest to buy the glass motif.

I like the stile and I’ve wanted it but the RNG was soo frustrating that I’ve preferred to buy it, for a week and little more i've done crafting writs with tree characters , 9 a day for 7 days so 63 completed writs and guess what? 2 damn fragments...
Not to tell that I’ve found only 12 malachite shards.

I like crafting my stuff but i like also to PLAY the game and pretend that everyone has the time and the effort to do 2K crafting writs in order to obtain the full motif is crazy not to consider that you still need to collect even all the materials in order to do the writ...

THIS IS BAD AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD ZOS.

still like the motif and the dark lord aspect is awesome but i've spend too much for it, thank god i've decided to not pay the eso + any-more...

lathbury

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

I was saving a couple of crowns from the IC purchase and I’ve added the rest to buy the glass motif.

I like the stile and I’ve wanted it but the RNG was soo frustrating that I’ve preferred to buy it, for a week and little more i've done crafting writs with tree characters , 9 a day for 7 days so 63 completed writs and guess what? 2 damn fragments...
Not to tell that I’ve found only 12 malachite shards.

I like crafting my stuff but i like also to PLAY the game and pretend that everyone has the time and the effort to do 2K crafting writs in order to obtain the full motif is crazy not to consider that you still need to collect even all the materials in order to do the writ...

THIS IS BAD AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD ZOS.

still like the motif and the dark lord aspect is awesome but i've spend too much for it, thank god i've decided to not pay the eso + any-more...

That's what would have made the ability to craft it so rare and valuable as a trading commodity. You did 63 writs in a week so eventually you would have got it I did 3 a day for a week and got enough to learn swords. Now there is no point as anyone who wants it will buy it rather than turn to a dedicated crafter like yourself. so you have encouraged them as they screwed you out of a potentially lucrative in game revenue stream.
Not to mention encouraged them to continue down this road with future crown store things.

Aquanova

While I sympathize with the OP and his or her arguments, all I have to say is......ZOS! WHY DIDN'T YOU ADD THE XIVKYN MOTIF TO THE CROWN STORE?????? I WOULD HAVE PAID 5000 CROWNS FOR THAT AS WELL!

byrom101b16_ESO

Thanks OP for a well reasoned argument. Taken in isolation, your argument is sound, and you have clearly tried to see the issue from all sides.

That said, I cannot agree with your conclusions.

The motif isn't pay to win, and your arguments about motif grinders 'deserving their reward' (the ability to sell glass items in this case) needs to be taken in context.

The simple fact is grinders are already massively over-rewarded for spending 24/7 in the game.

Nearly every aspect of advancement in this game, from CPs to top gear drop rates, to the accrual of gold etc. hugely rewards grinders and punishes casual players in a very unbalanced way. Casuals, regardless of skill cannot keep up with grinder CPs, they cannot expect to gain the best dropped gear in IC even if they can do both dungeons on hardmode. They cannot hope to gain the same number of Tel Var Stones, or Trophies, and with this and other factors, will never have the shear amount of desirable gear or crafting materials to sell. They will only ever have a tiny fraction of the gold grinders accrue, and thus rarely ever be able to play catch up by buying gear etc.

In short, this majority player demographic get screwed from nearly every angle by the way ESO is set up, regardless of skill.

Unfortunately, in ESO, 'time played' is the only significantly favourable metric in achieving progression, and whilst this is true to some extent in all MMOs, ESO is configured in such a way as to be an extreme example of this. Lack of Raids and dungeon lockouts means Guilds cannot support their players in planning activities to progress their less 24/7 players, your time cannot be targeted to best effect on lock-out content, and the players who can play round the clock can just spam, spam, spam, spam, and spam the same content to get what they want. As a result drop rates and RNG on gear is absolutely terrible, effectively making it next to impossible for the majority of players in the game to gain a desired set in anything approaching a reasonable timeframe. Orsinium and it's Trial(s) (hopefully...) will be out long before any but the most outrageously lucky casual assembles a BOP dropped set with even half-decent traits on it.

Having the Glass Motif in the Crown Store really isn't an issue if you balance it against this already unbelievable level of design bias in favour of grinders.

This is a grinders game, and they already get all the cake and all the cherries on top too.

The Glass motif being available at a high monetary cost is an utter irrelevance in comparison to this.

The game, sadly will continue to hemorrhage players from it's largest player group and the release schedule of the game will suffer if this ridiculous and financially suicidal bias isn't addressed.

The MMO genre is littered with examples of failed games that didn't tackle this issue, and ZOS are walking the same well worn road.

Iluvrien

lathbury wrote: »

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

I was saving a couple of crowns from the IC purchase and I’ve added the rest to buy the glass motif.

I like the stile and I’ve wanted it but the RNG was soo frustrating that I’ve preferred to buy it, for a week and little more i've done crafting writs with tree characters , 9 a day for 7 days so 63 completed writs and guess what? 2 damn fragments...
Not to tell that I’ve found only 12 malachite shards.

I like crafting my stuff but i like also to PLAY the game and pretend that everyone has the time and the effort to do 2K crafting writs in order to obtain the full motif is crazy not to consider that you still need to collect even all the materials in order to do the writ...

THIS IS BAD AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD ZOS.

still like the motif and the dark lord aspect is awesome but i've spend too much for it, thank god i've decided to not pay the eso + any-more...

That's what would have made the ability to craft it so rare and valuable as a trading commodity. You did 63 writs in a week so eventually you would have got it I did 3 a day for a week and got enough to learn swords. Now there is no point as anyone who wants it will buy it rather than turn to a dedicated crafter like yourself. so you have encouraged them as they screwed you out of a potentially lucrative in game revenue stream.
Not to mention encouraged them to continue down this road with future crown store things.

^This.

Yep, all the previous poster managed to do with their actions is encourage ZOS in their current course.

Will ZOS care that people are posting that they should feel bad after having given them their money? I really doubt it.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

2 bad the glass armor is butt-ugly

Elloa

Aquanova wrote: »

While I sympathize with the OP and his or her arguments, all I have to say is......ZOS! WHY DIDN'T YOU ADD THE XIVKYN MOTIF TO THE CROWN STORE?????? I WOULD HAVE PAID 5000 CROWNS FOR THAT AS WELL!

Ooh don't worry, Rich Lambert confirmed in the last ESO Live that it will be added (at some point) in the CrownStore. I'm sure we will see this one once Orsinium is released.

Molag_Crow

Well said and very nicely written. I agree fully because when I first started getting the Malachite shards and then the fragment pages from Writs, I was excited and felt motivated to find more and craft something glass.

When I saw it on the crown store, I was like;


So yeah. At that moment in time, I completely lost all incentive towards the glass style and didn't even bother refining more or doing any crafting writs.

Of course though, what we have to remember is that we're playing a game which is ran by a company(s) owned by corporations whose main interests are more money, more profit, more more more. I'm not slandering the people who have made this game beautiful, no, they're decent people and I like the ZOS staff but when you look at upstairs (metaphorically speaking) you'll find that they do not give a damn about what changes have been made within the game, they are only interested if whatever change has potentially generated them more money for their 3rd holiday home or whatever.

I don't mean to sound negative though because when the players voice their concerns, that is what makes all the difference.

Tonnopesce

Iluvrien wrote: »

lathbury wrote: »

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

I was saving a couple of crowns from the IC purchase and I’ve added the rest to buy the glass motif.

I like the stile and I’ve wanted it but the RNG was soo frustrating that I’ve preferred to buy it, for a week and little more i've done crafting writs with tree characters , 9 a day for 7 days so 63 completed writs and guess what? 2 damn fragments...
Not to tell that I’ve found only 12 malachite shards.

I like crafting my stuff but i like also to PLAY the game and pretend that everyone has the time and the effort to do 2K crafting writs in order to obtain the full motif is crazy not to consider that you still need to collect even all the materials in order to do the writ...

THIS IS BAD AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD ZOS.

still like the motif and the dark lord aspect is awesome but i've spend too much for it, thank god i've decided to not pay the eso + any-more...

That's what would have made the ability to craft it so rare and valuable as a trading commodity. You did 63 writs in a week so eventually you would have got it I did 3 a day for a week and got enough to learn swords. Now there is no point as anyone who wants it will buy it rather than turn to a dedicated crafter like yourself. so you have encouraged them as they screwed you out of a potentially lucrative in game revenue stream.
Not to mention encouraged them to continue down this road with future crown store things.

^This.

Yep, all the previous poster managed to do with their actions is encourage ZOS in their current course.

Will ZOS care that people are posting that they should feel bad after having given them their money? I really doubt it.

What i mean about feeling bad is that i was sort of obbligated to buy it. I dont regret the purcase since is my way (i'm not a subscriber anymore) to mantain the servers up and to give the zos employees the 0,001% of theyr montly pay.
I want to pay something for playng but for a B2P the mechanich is a little weird.
If they used a buisness model a little more a la fallout shelter i will be more happy, there you are not "obbligated" to buy the convenience stuff since from time to time they give it for free.

Cherryblossom

Whilst I understand your arguments,

The option is still there to spend a life time of grinding Writs if that is how you like to play.

The option is still available for those with Millions of Credits to buy Fragments. (some may call this unfair!)

Should they of left it a couple of months before dropping it onto the Crown Store, I don't think so, this is why; You have already mentioned that it is a long grind, so it would of been more of a kick in the teeth if after 3 months of grinding you could buy the Motif.

The price as you mentioned is high, this will make people think before buying, £25 for something cosmetic which you can get from doing grind in the game, for some it will be to much.

I personally do not think it's unfair for ZOS (I'm not a fan boy defending, just look at my previous posts!) to monetise this, most games do this with armour sets. But, ZOS has made this difficult for themselves as it's only with Crafting you can get a unique personal style, as all the sets on the Crown Store just make you look like everyone else who bought it, as there is no mix and match!

Personally I want to be able to craft myself different styles, so I have my own look, I don't like doing the writs, I don't play the markets to generate huge sums of gold, I don't have much time to play so I would prefer to buy it on the crown store so I can enjoy crafting an armour set I like. I would like to see preview of armour sets before I make them though.

So thank you @Elloa you have finally made me defend a ZOS decision!

Iluvrien

Cherryblossom wrote: »

So thank you @Elloa you have finally made me defend a ZOS decision!

Thank you too. Thank you for choosing to fund ZOS through this particular avenue and, by so doing, showing them that destroying the crafting economy is the path that you would like to see them continue down.

...I did look at your previous posts by the way. In the last 10 or so posts that I glance through you were indeed not fanboying for ZOS... which just makes it harder to understand why you seem to want them to continue taking crafting apart piece by piece.

Tonnopesce

Iluvrien wrote: »

Cherryblossom wrote: »

So thank you @Elloa you have finally made me defend a ZOS decision!

Thank you too. Thank you for choosing to fund ZOS through this particular avenue and, by so doing, showing them that destroying the crafting economy is the path that you would like to see them continue down.

...I did look at your previous posts by the way. In the last 10 or so posts that I glance through you were indeed not fanboying for ZOS... which just makes it harder to understand why you seem to want them to continue taking crafting apart piece by piece.

ZOS have destroied the crafting economy when they have choosed that crafted items will be at the same level of dropped items.

Iluvrien

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

Cherryblossom wrote: »

So thank you @Elloa you have finally made me defend a ZOS decision!

Thank you too. Thank you for choosing to fund ZOS through this particular avenue and, by so doing, showing them that destroying the crafting economy is the path that you would like to see them continue down.

...I did look at your previous posts by the way. In the last 10 or so posts that I glance through you were indeed not fanboying for ZOS... which just makes it harder to understand why you seem to want them to continue taking crafting apart piece by piece.

ZOS have destroied the crafting economy when they have choosed that crafted items will be at the same level of dropped items.

That was definitely one of the steps. As was including the other motifs in the Crown Store. As was increasing the mat requirements for VR16 sets by 10x... and so on. ZOS has taken quite a few steps down this path. I just wish people didn't seem to be so happy to pay ZOS to do it... and then complain about the fact that ZOS is taking advantage of the profitability of this way of doing things.

Carter_DC

I would gladly agree with OP if the glass motif was anything like it should have been... A thing of beauty. Alas it is not.
Where are the translucent green malachite parts ?


Besides, ppl that bought the imperial edition are able to craft imperial style but only for themselves. From what i heard in the video, crown store motifs allow ppl to craft for others as well, and THAT, is not acceptable for a paid item.

Cherryblossom

Iluvrien wrote: »

Cherryblossom wrote: »

So thank you @Elloa you have finally made me defend a ZOS decision!

Thank you too. Thank you for choosing to fund ZOS through this particular avenue and, by so doing, showing them that destroying the crafting economy is the path that you would like to see them continue down.

...I did look at your previous posts by the way. In the last 10 or so posts that I glance through you were indeed not fanboying for ZOS... which just makes it harder to understand why you seem to want them to continue taking crafting apart piece by piece.

I honestly do this not see this as destroying the Crafting Economy, but I do see the huge increase in required materials as and their scarcity as a huge issue for the Crafting.

I'm not sure what Economy you could be talking about, Economy is one thing this game is lacking in my personal opinion.
I craft for friends and guildies at the cost of materials, because I can. I don't sell crafted Items on the Guild store as they rarely sell. I rarely see anyone in Chat requesting someone craft them a set!

Kas

imho it's sad that they took away a logn term goal of the farmers. personally, i'm glad i can buy it in the crown store. i got tons of unused eso+ crowns anyway and i certainly can't be bothered to do crafting dfailies on many chars - especially woth the current loading screens.

however, i think it really took something away from a certain group of players (imho often a bit older, not the quickest fingers, not into pvp too much, some rather casual, others fairly hardcore w.r.t play-time). it was a long-term goal for them and it has been taken away. especially since there many amoung them with proper jobs would can laugh about 50€ or whatever it is.

further it had been a nioce way for new playes to get their hands on some money. effectively it helped to improve the reward for each crafting daily and made them a decent (imho not the best, but good) way in terms of gold per time.

let's hope they add something like this again (huge, huge grind. easy but requires perseverance. not necessary for players that just want to min/max and compete with others. tradeable so it can be used by new players to catch up financially) and don't immediable remove it again that time.

Tonnopesce

Iluvrien wrote: »

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

Cherryblossom wrote: »

So thank you @Elloa you have finally made me defend a ZOS decision!

Thank you too. Thank you for choosing to fund ZOS through this particular avenue and, by so doing, showing them that destroying the crafting economy is the path that you would like to see them continue down.

...I did look at your previous posts by the way. In the last 10 or so posts that I glance through you were indeed not fanboying for ZOS... which just makes it harder to understand why you seem to want them to continue taking crafting apart piece by piece.

ZOS have destroied the crafting economy when they have choosed that crafted items will be at the same level of dropped items.

That was definitely one of the steps. As was including the other motifs in the Crown Store. As was increasing the mat requirements for VR16 sets by 10x... and so on. ZOS has taken quite a few steps down this path. I just wish people didn't seem to be so happy to pay ZOS to do it... and then complain about the fact that ZOS is taking advantage of the profitability of this way of doing things.

Personally i don’t believe that the 10x increase for a vr 16 set is an issue since i'm seeing a lot of the new materials been sold in the guild stores and even for fair prices.

The motifs on a side note, everyone where ok with the blue ones since you open a couple of chests and desks and you get one so it was a whale bait, the purple where already destroying the economy ( my personal economy even) but not all the people spend 1500 crowns x4 for aesthetics so the sales are still up.

The imperial is again a whale bait, since you can buy the imperial edition for much less.
The other tree (Dwemer,Xivilin not yet,Glass) ARE an issue but especially the Glass is THE issue since due to the BAD way to obtain it no-one is able to generate enough pages to sell them in the guilds store.

You need to consider that the Glass is a motif that can be tacked by everyone, not only from the people that have the dlc so is designed on a certain way, on the opposite the Xivilin can be obtained quite easy and is designed completely different from the glass, you get the pages you get the stile material and is done.

I believe that Zos wanted to create a 1° class playerbase and a 2° class one

People like me who have access to the dlc and don’t pay the subscription can have the glass motif for a "fair" price and can even have the Xivilin motif quite easy.

People who want the base game only can generate a good economy thanks to the Xivilin motif and the vr 16 mats ( even the malachite shards can be obtained more easily inside the IC ), and can get the glass motif with a long grind (so here is the convenience)

Whales are Whales so nothing to say here.

People who have decided to support monthly ZOS are not supposed to suffer since in three months (little more) they have enough "free" crowns to buy the glass motif and they can have access to the dlc so they can even participate in the "new" game economy.

The glass motif is unfair for the people who already pay for something ( dlc or eso+) but is "well" desiged for the ones who have only payed the base game and nothing else (you want something? work hard for it or buy it).

A good way to solve the problem will be introduce an easy way for having the glass motif INSIDE the IC so more people will buy the dlc and the ones who already have it can get the glass motif without a frustrating grind.

Bad English i know, i've double checked and i hope that it can be readed .

Xendyn

"Work hard for it"?
I'm sorry, no. This isnt' about earning or working for anything.
This is about ZOS artificially creating grinds to force people to the Crown Store because they have made it ridiculously hard and dependant on double RNG to get it ingame.

But I see ZOS' Cattle Prod skill line is fully leveled and WAI.

It's just the first steps and I hope you all look forward to many, many more.

Tonnopesce

Xendyn wrote: »

"Work hard for it"?
I'm sorry, no. This isnt' about earning or working for anything.
This is about ZOS artificially creating grinds to force people to the Crown Store because they have made it ridiculously hard and dependant on double RNG to get it ingame.

But I see ZOS' Cattle Prod skill line is fully leveled and WAI.

It's just the first steps and I hope you all look forward to many, many more.

No offence but you are a little blind my friend, they still need money to run the game.

Gidorick

Carter_DC wrote: »

Where are the translucent green malachite parts ?

I've wondered this too. I don't think ESO's Engine (whatever it's called) is capable of translucence or sub-surface scattering. If it were I would have thought the ice horse would look more ice-like.

kevlarto_ESO

You can still loot it in game be it very rare, or you can get instant gratification and buy it off the store, I don't have a problem with that, I am no going to buy it, it is not any form of p2w, in fact as stores go the ESO store is pretty conservative compared to other games.

Sheezabeast

The moment they added an achievement for learning all the chapters, that's when it became something other than cosmetic.

Cadbury

Sheezabeast wrote: »

The moment they added an achievement for learning all the chapters, that's when it became something other than cosmetic.

Yup, since achievements are very important and have an effect on your stats...

Xendyn

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

Xendyn wrote: »

"Work hard for it"?
I'm sorry, no. This isnt' about earning or working for anything.
This is about ZOS artificially creating grinds to force people to the Crown Store because they have made it ridiculously hard and dependant on double RNG to get it ingame.

But I see ZOS' Cattle Prod skill line is fully leveled and WAI.

It's just the first steps and I hope you all look forward to many, many more.

No offence but you are a little blind my friend, they still need money to run the game.

Of course they do. I've never said they didn't. I don't care if they put the darn thing on the store.
What they don't need to do is create artificial inconveniences ingame to make their "convenience" items more attractive.

I don't think I'm the one that's blind.

Enodoc

I was expecting the Glass motif to end up in the Crown Store at some point, as all the others are there, but it happened way too soon. Releasing that along with Orsinium would be a reasonable time frame I think.

What I am more concerned about though is that you can buy malachite in the Crown Store, as that is directly removing in-game effort. I'm also concerned that the Xivkyn motif may turn up in the Crown Store, which would be inappropriate since it is Imperial City exclusive, and a reward for Imperial City content.

Tonnopesce

Xendyn wrote: »

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

Xendyn wrote: »

"Work hard for it"?
I'm sorry, no. This isnt' about earning or working for anything.
This is about ZOS artificially creating grinds to force people to the Crown Store because they have made it ridiculously hard and dependant on double RNG to get it ingame.

But I see ZOS' Cattle Prod skill line is fully leveled and WAI.

It's just the first steps and I hope you all look forward to many, many more.

No offence but you are a little blind my friend, they still need money to run the game.

Of course they do. I've never said they didn't. I don't care if they put the darn thing on the store.
What they don't need to do is create artificial inconveniences ingame to make their "convenience" items more attractive.

I don't think I'm the one that's blind.

For the aesthetics items they can add as much grind as they want imho.

I personally find a lot more frustrating trying to get an arcane willpower ring or another super rare bound on pick up set inside the dungeons.

As long as they don’t sell GEAR or EQUIPMENT i'm fine, the glass motif don’t make you stronger

Sheezabeast

To be honest, I think people who would rather pay real money for things you /can/ achieve in game (like riding lessons or motifs) are really being suckered by Zos. I understand the complicated equation of people having assets to spend, choosing how they spend their assets and supporting the game yada yada. But if they buy them and continue to support bad business ideals, its not sending the right message to Zos, they look at numbers and figures, not "ooh! look! player X looks cool in their new armor! Bet they're grateful we made it easy to get!"

At the end of the day it doesn't directly effect me if someone else has spent their money on stuff, but its effecting the game as a whole

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Are people really more upset about this than the fact that they removed all the good V14 gear in the game and made us grind AGAIN. After promising to remove vet levels?

At least this stuff doesn't actually affect your character power.