Glass Motif in the Crown Store - Discussion - Counter Argument - Solutions

Kuroinu

OmniDevil wrote: »

Riko_Futatabi wrote: »

If you go back and take the time to read my previous 2 posts in this thread, you might get a good idea of why this can effect everyone and why it's not about the business model or money. In short, it's about how things are implemented in-game because of the crown store.

I'll give you a link to one of them actually: forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/comment/2296863/#Comment_2296863.

I've read every one of your comments. A lot of what you had to say made sense, but I still don't see it. I do 100% agree that the implementation needs to be worked on. There does need to be more ways to obtain items and bottle-necking them through extremely long and grindy or paid-for options has never been enjoyable.

However, this isn't motivating people less. People are motivating themselves less. If you really wanted something, no matter how tedious, you're going to get it done. Maybe that motivation is saving up money for crowns or crowns from each sub? Maybe that motivation is doing writs on 8 characters each day, trying to collect the fragments. Maybe that motivation is saving up enough gold to purchase the chapters from Guild Traders. Should they have to resort to "methods" like this? No, but until ZOS does something more (given their track run, probably not any time soon, if at all), it still comes down to personal opinion.

Saltypretzels wrote: »

I think Elloa does a good job with it and other people have said it well. I will lay it out as clear as possible for you.

They are intentionally creating very-grindy, inconvenient systems in the game, to give a people a strong motivation to pay real world money to skip over the inconvenience.

Again, still personal opinion. Intentional? Maybe, but no one will be able to prove their intentions without ZOS personally coming out right and saying it. Giving them strong motivation to spend money? Only for those that would rather do so.

It's easy to generalize the majority when wanting others to agree with what you believe.

I can see that you understand my point to a degree. But I also never mentioned anything about motivation, many players will do what they can with what the game provides. It just isn't much at the moment.

Since you did bring up motivation. Like you said, the current system isn't enjoyable and a lack of enjoyment can effect a players motivation. So it can effect players motivation, but this isn't so much about that because many players will grind and enjoy it, I'm one of them, but the current grind is boring and needs additional options while still maintaining a significant grind.

I've said it in the past that while the crown store is a good way to fund the development of the game, it's also encouraging a lack of creativity in the development process. The Glass Motif is a very good example of this.

UntameableAngel

While I agree the in game grind for the items are a bit ridiculous (and too limited), I do not agree that the item shouldn't be in the Crown Store.

It is the definition of a Vanity item, which (imo) should be the only items the Crown Store offers - since they do not affect the outcome of combat in any way.


Zenimax also waited a monthish to add it to the Crown Store, which would have been long enough - had it not been so hard to obtain in game.

The price is high, which I agree could be lowered a bit. To even things out the Imperial DLC should have cost more..

robkrush

UntameableAngel wrote: »

While I agree the in game grind for the items are a bit ridiculous (and too limited), I do not agree that the item shouldn't be in the Crown Store.

It is the definition of a Vanity item, which (imo) should be the only items the Crown Store offers - since they do not affect the outcome of combat in any way.

How do these motifs not effect combat!!!!! You buy the motif, you craft gear for people using their mats, you make millions and buy the best gear in the game for yourself. It is providing resources for you because you spent cash! It is P2W.

Xendyn

UntameableAngel wrote: »

While I agree the in game grind for the items are a bit ridiculous (and too limited), I do not agree that the item shouldn't be in the Crown Store.

It is the definition of a Vanity item, which (imo) should be the only items the Crown Store offers - since they do not affect the outcome of combat in any way.


Zenimax also waited a monthish to add it to the Crown Store, which would have been long enough - had it not been so hard to obtain in game.

The price is high, which I agree could be lowered a bit. To even things out the Imperial DLC should have cost more..

So just out of curiosity, how do you feel about the mats (malachite shards) also being in the store?
Where do you draw the line at what constitutes a vanity item?

UntameableAngel

When was the last time you heard of anyone making millions from selling gear based on the Style?

It doesn't happen. Look in the Guild Vendors, items that are considered Meta (no matter what style) sell for way more then anything else.


Will people tip others to make them the gear? Sure, but not to a point that it would be considered pay to win.

It's not like they put in Nirnhoned (pre patch), which would be a valid argument..


As far as the Shards go, same thing - since it applies to the Style of an Armor or Weapon.

Zenimax needs to make money, Vanity items should be the ONLY things available in the Crown Store.


That being said, I am totally opposed to the Imperial Race being in the Crown Store - since the Race comes with specific and significant bonuses (that can affect combat).

I also think that Items that offer only Convenience should be thoroughly discussed before being added to the Crown Store.

I am personally against any Convenience items.

Elloa

@OmniDevil I don't think I can explain better than what I've written and what others such as @angelyn @Riko_Futatabi or @Xendyn have added.

This whole debate is nothing personal. I'm not a dedicated Crafter, and no matter how long the Glass Motif would be in game without be in the Crown Store, it would change nothing for my selfish little player life. I'm not farming it anyway.

However, I find the way Zenimax have conceptualized this whole thing to be very dishonest. It is not honest to design a gameplay to be intently hard, long and discouraging to push players towards the shop. This kind of design is lame and its almost a scam, in my opinion. I feel betrayed.
What's next?

Troneon

/lurk

Osteos

Or you could see it as a boon to subscribers. I don't spend my crowns often so I have a nice supply. I could use the crowns to purchase the motif ( I have not) without it costing me a cent more then what i already give monthly.

I honestly don't see it being unethical. It was known ahead how tedious the grind was going to be and it was also known that it was going to be available in the crown store.

Xendyn

Troneon wrote: »

/lurk

I wish.

OmniDevil

Elloa wrote: »

However, I find the way Zenimax have conceptualized this whole thing to be very dishonest. It is not honest to design a gameplay to be intently hard, long and discouraging to push players towards the shop. This kind of design is lame and its almost a scam, in my opinion. I feel betrayed.
What's next?

Having the glass motif or any other motif, for that matter, doesn't make the game easier nor harder. Does it take a while to grind out writs for a low chance at a glass chapter fragment? Yes, but that has nothing to do with what motifs they do and don't place in the Crown Store. It's not dishonest nor is it honest. They implemented two different ways to obtain a motif (albeit in a poorly manner); one way made it easy for those that don't like the grind. I don't get to spend a lot of time playing and, when I do, I spend it doing more useful activities, such as dungeons, PvP, leveling, etc. As such, I was more than happy to purchase the motif from the Crown Store. Having said that, there is still a better way they can implement new items.

Tommy1979AtWar

I've a feeling opinions will change if in 6 months time there are weapon and armour sets being sold in the CS with a ridiculous RNG under the guise of "convenience", it'll be interesting to see how many you want to spend another $50 every 3 months for whatever new armour or weapon keeps you competitive because it may only be a vanity item now but it's a slippery slope and that's exactly where the CS is heading.

Wanderinlost

It should be obtainable through a reasonable amount of regular play. Not so rare that they don't show up markets either. The best place to get fragments should be through crafting writs. They may as well go up in the CS on day one as well, there is no point in working on unlocking it partway if you are ultimately going to buy it with crowns.

DanielMaxwell

I said this before and it still applies


Any thing that can be sold in the crown store will be .


ZOS will reduce drop rates , adjust RNG from loot tables and anything else that will steer players to the crown store to spend money . These are the exact same actions taken by every B2P/F2P game , they only vary in how blatant the steering is.

ContraTempo

So what do you think of the idea of armor motifs that are ONLY available through the cash shop? They don't change armor stats because they are just cosmetic. They don't add grind to the game because you can't get them in game. There is no deception or "misunderstandings" because they are straightforward only available in the cash shop. Basically you are buying a skin for your crafted armor.

They do cost money, of course, because that is the nature of a cash shop.

nimander99

EQBallzz wrote: »

To Elloa:

Remember when you were sticking up for ZOS prior to the crown store release? Many of us were complaining about it and saying this sort of thing would happen and you and others were saying we should trust ZOS. Well, this is exactly what we were saying would happen and it will only get worse.

I agree with your post 100% but this is really not that surprising. When you remove the sub from a game the creativity that goes towards improving the game switches over to creativity of itemizing "products". That usually entails creating difficult to get items "in game" and then offering them in the store for inflated prices (or it could get worse and they only offer items in the store with no option in game). It's only going to get worse as they try to sustain a flow of cash to replace the sub revenue they have lost (and more).

^The kindest in your face post, ever to grace a forum

nimander99

ContraTempo wrote: »

So what do you think of the idea of armor motifs that are ONLY available through the cash shop? They don't change armor stats because they are just cosmetic. They don't add grind to the game because you can't get them in game. There is no deception or "misunderstandings" because they are straightforward only available in the cash shop. Basically you are buying a skin for your crafted armor.

They do cost money, of course, because that is the nature of a cash shop.

Not a bad idea actually

xXNesTXx

DLC = 2500 crowns
Glass Style = 5000 crowns

If that is true, we can confirm that the people is idiot

Sorry but in this case, is not fault of ZOS, is fault of the players that pay for this article this insane amount (double than DLC costs with this article included!!)

This is a business....and the stupid customers are the best customers.....

WarrioroftheWind_ESO

There was a video I remember watching where the commentator went at length about how, like casinos, games that rely on a cash shop subsist on what are termed by the business as 'whales'; big spenders that spend consistently and reliably. Cash shops are designed to cater to the impatient, lazy, or the instant gratification crowd. Unfortunately that is the largest group of players in mmo's today, the gimmie gimme now now crowd. Very few people like to play patient and even fewer feel rewarded for doing so. I'm a ESO plus member, so I get the bonus 500 crowns each month. I WAS tempted to get the motif, but since I already had one chapter, maces, i figure I'll get it eventually. I don't do writs on 8 toons, I just do the rank 10 ones on my main, and I get frags from time to time. But I can play it patient. I can hold onto my crowns until something comes along that feels worthy of getting, like the tessellated guar, or the ice horse.

If people are willing to pay for cosmetics and consumables, they can and they will, and that's money that will go to ZOS hopefully to develop more content and fix issues with the game (traps) expediently. However I would dread if ZOS or its parent companies decide to milk the game of cash for all its worth and leave it a husk of a barely playable entity *cough*Hacktivision*cough*.

Knootewoot

angelyn wrote: »

Surragard wrote: »

There is a balance between a grind and just making it obnoxious. The glass armor is not a grind. It was intentionally designed to be so insanely difficult that you would flock to the crown store to purchase it. It's probably a market test to see if they can pull this off in the future. If lot's of people go buy it on the crown store, then they know they can use this strategy in the future.

^^ THIS

Double ^^ THIS

The same for ridiculous prices for a skin (Senche) which costs more then a DLC. Yet people buy them. Zos makes them also "temporarily available" so that weak people will buy them before they are pulled from store.

The entire game is nothing more then a cash grab. They do this because they know the game has no future. I rememver Vanguard. When the game almost died (500 players left) they also introduced an ingame shop. Every hard to get item (flying mounts, galleons, armors) where for sale there (not as expensive as Zos's store though).

When people bought most of them.... sorry guys we are pulling the plug on this game. thank you byebye.

Be aware buyers

BalticBlues

xXNesTXx wrote: »

DLC = 2500 crowns
Glass Style = 5000 crowns

I paid happily 2500 crowns for the IC including the Glass style. However, after I found that with 2 hours play time a day I have next to zero chance to collect the set, I feel cheated. Locking paid content behind an almost impossible grinding wall IMHO is dishonest.

IMHO, this selling approach is worse than F2P.

I do not like F2P, but at least that is an honest approach. Instead selling a game as B2P and then charging again for DLC content access looks like cheating to me. I happily pay for all DLC, but not for all DLC plus DLC content access.

ZOS, either use a fair B2P model where people have fair access to paid DLC,
or make your game F2P with a full blown crown store.

"You can't have your cake and eat it too."
ZOS thinks they found a way. But this destroys the loyalty of their customers.

Tommy1979AtWar

xXNesTXx wrote: »

DLC = 2500 crowns
Glass Style = 5000 crowns

If that is true, we can confirm that the people is idiot

Sorry but in this case, is not fault of ZOS, is fault of the players that pay for this article this insane amount (double than DLC costs with this article included!!)

This is a business....and the stupid customers are the best customers.....

As the old saying goes... "fools and their money are easily parted"

AronGrayblood

I actually considere the way of geting motife to be fair.... (Dodging behind a rock) Let me say why!

Honestly crafting jobs had no reason to do or impact and now they do. I mean sure they could do it a bit better by making motif just ultra rare to find alternativly or by giving few extra quest to do, to get the motif... but honestly is that really that bad what they did?

1- motif does not affect game in any way shape or form other then making your character look a bit difrent

2 - there is already tone of other motifs

3 - there is a way to get motif in game with no amount of crown spent

4 - while problematic early on, if you concentraite on crafting you can easly get to the point in which you will do those daily quest with no problem, proces is long and frustrating but its for an extra thing that should never be considered required to play or changing gameplay

I know that if that was motif that i personaly would considere needed by me, for example motif that give craftable coats or things like that http://static.gosunoob.com/img/1/2015/04/witcher-3-armor-1024x576.jpg i am not sure how i would react. But as long as ESO does not pull out total absurd and put those things crown store only.... outrage is not really that much needed i belive i mean sure you can be unheappy but i do not think you should be screaming about it

ThePonzzz

I already weighed in on this topic, but I just brought this up in a guild chat tonight, since I was able to assemble my first Glass motif page from fragments. I have one character and do writs daily. I finally managed to score 10 fragments for the first time. As others have pointed out, that isn't a grind, it's purposely made to be slow, that's assuming the chance of a fragment is truly random. It seems like everything is balanced now with the mindset of using 8 character slots to achieve anything, and we quickly forget about those of us who have no interest in alts.

Aligning the price of the Glass motif with the Imperial or Dwemer at 5000 Crowns wasn't the proper move. It should have been double the price. But even $50 for a motif is a stretch, but again, that's just comparing to the two other motifs. Styles are perfect for the Crown store though, since they offer nothing in game.

The Crown store item was released too soon, it was priced too cheap, and it will now kill the market for the Glass pages in game, because the people who are willing to pay 150k a page will quickly feel that $50 is better than 2 mil gold. And if they choose to find it without buying, you're looking at months of writs to find 14 pages, and who knows if you'll get 14 different pages. I've kept my Plus subscription to support the game, and with really nothing to buy, stockpiling 5000 Crowns isn't too hard. I hate the look of Glass and I nearly considered buying the motif just because what else will I do with these Crowns.

I have nothing against the Crown store, especially since this game no longer forces the subscription model, but please don't crush the in-game economy with pushing items for cash.

SeptimusDova

Elloa I do not know if you will read this. But that is a Masterful post!! I wish i could give you eleventythirty Awesomes !!

RVikary

When will people stop being selfish here? My God!

Of course having glass armor doesn't change the end game PVE/PVP. It doesn't!

What it does is that it completely destroyed the possibility of a crafter to be able to go to Belkarth and earn some gold the way HE wants to do it. This action by Zenimax has COMPLETELY diminished any profit that crafter would have. And, even though I don't use crafting as a way of playing the game, I only do it casually to craft some easy to get trait sets, I woudn't be affected. But a lot of players who were excited by this possibility can't do it anymore.

And don't you come saying, "Oh, but it's so expensive, very few will buy it from the Crown Store"...You can already see people walking around on full sets of Glass Aarmor, being able to sell their crafted stuff for a much lower price, since they didn't need to earn it and it's basically easy gold to be had.

With this kind of action ZOS will succeed in driving away a small percentage of their players, those few who see this "useless" crafting gameplay being reduced to nothing, and the rest of you who don't care about it anyway can go on playing ESO.

All I know is that up until now, the grind to get items never seemed created to drive you to use your credit card. I got all fragments of the Psijic Ambrosia and completed it this month. And I liked doing it, because I like provisioning for some reason. I couldn't buy it on the Crown Store, but saw a lot of people buying, but I never felt I'd never be able to get there, and playing with only one VR provisioner I got there after some time.

Now, even though I spent a long time getting all 3 important crafts to 50 and get another character to VR1, I know I'll never have a chance to get the motif. The mats required for the writs are too many and I need them for my templar armor sets, trying out some pledges, PVP and Craglorn content for the first time. So I had to give up on ever having something from the game, since they made it so hard that I would have to buy it with real money.

One thing though, if ZOS had waited at least a little longer, at least until Orsinium was being launched, to give players a chance to enjoy doing this and then put it in the Crown Store, then this wouldn't be this big of a deal for a lot of worried players. The best thing they could do right now, is to at least make it a little less difficult for crafters to earn it, by changing the amount of stuff to craft for writs or make it so that 5 fragments give one page or something like that. Maybe up just a little the chances of getting the fragments and shards out there? I don't know, something to make us believe that it wasn't intentional to make the Glass Armor virtually impossible to get, other than with your credit card.

BalticBlues

ThePonzzz wrote: »

I hate the look of Glass

Last weekend, I saw a player looking to me like a "green gummy bear".
Coming closer, I realized that he was in full Glass armour.

I guess that people paying $50 extra cash for the IC DLC
deserve no better than wearing gummy bear armor.

SeptimusDova

Baltic are you Bosmer, Khajiit or Argonian ??

Cherryblossom

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

Cherryblossom wrote: »

so for some of us at least this type of convenience is worth the 2 pints of beer we will pay for it.

2 pints ? 5000 crowns is like more than half of the game. And the motif is so meh for light armor... xivkyn is awesome but glass. My god.

Sorry was based upon subscription per month.

symonator

I got some free vouchers recently, so grabbed this from the store.
The style is horrible anyway, it looks gash in heavy for my tank, you can't even colour over it properly.

abuniffpreub18_ESO

Saltypretzels wrote: »

Motif was released WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY way way way too soon.

It should have been released with Orsinium, like Elloa suggests.

I agree 100%. But it doesn't make any difference, Zenimax is going to do what they want not what you want.