The Death of the Dragonknight- updated 3/15/16

HoloYoitsu

Jules wrote: »

Edited this thread to reflect the thieves guild changes and where DK stands as of 3/15/16

But I thought you were so excited about the amazing 'buffs' back on PTS? Why do you toy with my feelings?!

Jules

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Edited this thread to reflect the thieves guild changes and where DK stands as of 3/15/16

But I thought you were so excited about the amazing 'buffs' back on PTS? Why do you toy with my feelings?!

I was excited when I saw how it performed in 1v1s. And I was excited when I read the list of buffs and imagined how they would play out. However, I am less excited when I see how it performs in true Cyrodiil, open world and especially solo. I tried many different builds and gear set ups and ultimately came back to the same realization that the class as a whole is just much more challenging than the others.

amirsot

Jules wrote: »

Original Post: 9/2015:

Please consider these changes ZOS:

- Reflective wings grants major expedition for 4s.
- Battle Spirit not affecting Dragon Blood
- Extended Chains being a traditional gap closer with stun & CC immunity afterwards

COMPLETELY AGREE WITH THESE

In all honesty, these are sensible/fair/reasonable changes, I hope ZOS listens.

DKsUnite

And you called me negative for not letting people get hyped :P

Vanzen

We need a decent dragon blood ! Thats all we need. Atm Dragon blood is absolutely useless even coupled with igneous shiel and tons of cp in healing.
I even removed both entirely from my bars and replace it with burning embers. Meaning I cant heal when not fighting.
On a side note I discovered after trying many many sets and build that full heavy with "divine" reactive armor with magicka glyphs give some nice mitigation due to the amount of fear cc and stun. At least with reactive armor you take more or less 35% less dam like 100% of the time
Slot mage skil and NB wont be a instant death anymore.
My 2 cents.

Bashev

I said it several times. DKs need survivability. Their skills are mele range and if you want to stay in the mele you have to be able to protect yourself. This class were based on 2 simple mechanics = dynamic ultimate and blocking. Now both are gone and DKs will never perform well. Of course ZoS can buff them and give them mobility, but then they will be very close to gameplay as NBs and Sorcs.

One thing which really bothers me is why @Wrobel didnt buff GDB? What does he think about this skill, that it is useful in Cyro? We need another person who should be responsible fro the PvP part of the skills. It is clear that @wrobel does not pvp and that is why his decisions are so bad. He needs somebody who can hold him for a hand and discuss with him the PvP nature of the skills when he want to make some change.

themdogesbite

The problem isnt really survivability, the problem is that we hit like wet noodles and the only way not to, is by sacrificing every inch of that said survivability.

Bashev

themdogesbite wrote: »

The problem isnt really survivability, the problem is that we hit like wet noodles and the only way not to, is by sacrificing every inch of that said survivability.

They are related. For DKs you should choose how to build, for more damage or more survivability while the other classes they increase their survivability by buffing their damage at the same time. I am talking about magicka builds here.

BTW our main defensive skill right now is our main weakness. It drains our resources.

Darnathian

Vanzen wrote: »

We need a decent dragon blood ! Thats all we need. Atm Dragon blood is absolutely useless even coupled with igneous shiel and tons of cp in healing.
I even removed both entirely from my bars and replace it with burning embers. Meaning I cant heal when not fighting.
On a side note I discovered after trying many many sets and build that full heavy with "divine" reactive armor with magicka glyphs give some nice mitigation due to the amount of fear cc and stun. At least with reactive armor you take more or less 35% less dam like 100% of the time
Slot mage skil and NB wont be a instant death anymore.
My 2 cents.

Ao true. Tge change to radiant magelight is awesome. It evens the playing field.

The FOTM Nb baddies will keep trying ti recloakwhile running away getting rekt. the good nbs will stay and fight.

I cant believe i am going to say this but great change Zos.

Now about those shield stackers.....

Ishammael

Thanks Jules for keeping the thread updated. I think we were all excited initially about the DK changes -- the reality of Cyrodiil combats makes them all pretty lackluster, though.

Bashev wrote: »

I said it several times. DKs need survivability. Their skills are mele range and if you want to stay in the mele you have to be able to protect yourself. This class were based on 2 simple mechanics = dynamic ultimate and blocking. Now both are gone and DKs will never perform well. Of course ZoS can buff them and give them mobility, but then they will be very close to gameplay as NBs and Sorcs.

One thing which really bothers me is why @Wrobel didnt buff GDB? What does he think about this skill, that it is useful in Cyro? We need another person who should be responsible fro the PvP part of the skills. It is clear that @wrobel does not pvp and that is why his decisions are so bad. He needs somebody who can hold him for a hand and discuss with him the PvP nature of the skills when he want to make some change.

Agreed.

Like I said on the PTS feedback thread: I would give up every single damage increase from this patch for (1) fixed dragon blood, and (2) miss chance plus ground targeted on Cinder storm.

Moglijuana

Ishammael wrote: »

Thanks Jules for keeping the thread updated. I think we were all excited initially about the DK changes -- the reality of Cyrodiil combats makes them all pretty lackluster, though.

Bashev wrote: »

I said it several times. DKs need survivability. Their skills are mele range and if you want to stay in the mele you have to be able to protect yourself. This class were based on 2 simple mechanics = dynamic ultimate and blocking. Now both are gone and DKs will never perform well. Of course ZoS can buff them and give them mobility, but then they will be very close to gameplay as NBs and Sorcs.

One thing which really bothers me is why @Wrobel didnt buff GDB? What does he think about this skill, that it is useful in Cyro? We need another person who should be responsible fro the PvP part of the skills. It is clear that @wrobel does not pvp and that is why his decisions are so bad. He needs somebody who can hold him for a hand and discuss with him the PvP nature of the skills when he want to make some change.

Agreed.

Like I said on the PTS feedback thread: I would give up every single damage increase from this patch for (1) fixed dragon blood, and (2) miss chance plus ground targeted on Cinder storm.

If dragons blood worked that would be sweet but I can deal. But cinder storm! Was that a thing?? If so, wtf! I wan't some dodge chance on my dk </3

GRxKnight

Dat hype doe

Durham

blabafat wrote: »

Good post, but I think some DK's are ONLY looking at the negative sides...and fail to consider the positive

Such as:

DK's have the 2nd best ultimates
DK's have good resource management
DK's have the best root in the game

Our main PVP ultimate saw a X2 nerf
resource managment (I do not agree with this ..it depends) only in high stamina builds running food... We need drinks for magicka abilities (Stamina Users only)
Yes I do agree with this ....

xEcthelionx

Read this post often before the patch notes dropped and then stopped. Quit whining. The problem is that you and every other scrub is trying to bring back a magicka DK that can run SnB. Stop it.

If you try to play the class where you heal or tank dps then you are going to die in 1vX. If you stack your damage super high and sacrifice some regen (which you gain no class passives for, +EV) then you will do better because your main heal (draw essence) is going to come from more damage.

I run 42k max magicka (will be higher when I get a medium shoulder roll, ftw console RnG).
2300 SP on a destro staff (constant 3k med weaves > 200-300 more TT value on abilities).
1200 recovery w/a monster set that makes this manageable.

I 1vX people constantly, melee and magicka users; however, it will be much easier next patch. The reason I am able to do this is not because I am a great player, etc. It is because I adapt to the current environment and instead of whining about bringing SnB DK's back (2k whips are trash and so is Kena+Alchemist in 1v1's *cheese harder, bro*) learn to play the class again.

xEcthelionx

xEcthelionx wrote: »

Read this post often before the patch notes dropped and then stopped. Quit whining. The problem is that you and every other scrub is trying to bring back a magicka DK that can run SnB. Stop it.

If you try to play the class where you heal or tank dps then you are going to die in 1vX. If you stack your damage super high and sacrifice some regen (which you gain no class passives for, +EV) then you will do better because your main heal (draw essence) is going to come from more damage.

I run 42k max magicka (will be higher when I get a medium shoulder roll, ftw console RnG).
2300 SP on a destro staff (constant 3k med weaves > 200-300 more TT value on abilities).
1200 recovery w/a monster set that makes this manageable.

I 1vX people constantly, melee and magicka users; however, it will be much easier next patch. The reason I am able to do this is not because I am a great player, etc. It is because I adapt to the current environment and instead of whining about bringing SnB DK's back (2k whips are trash and so is Kena+Alchemist in 1v1's *cheese harder, bro*) learn to play the class again.

It is also not because console players are trash, it is quite the opposite. PC players have a much larger pool filled with the average player.

Wing

I do miss the cinder dodge chance, would love to see that come back, and whip being decent again.

Bashev

xEcthelionx wrote: »

Read this post often before the patch notes dropped and then stopped. Quit whining. The problem is that you and every other scrub is trying to bring back a magicka DK that can run SnB. Stop it.

If you try to play the class where you heal or tank dps then you are going to die in 1vX. If you stack your damage super high and sacrifice some regen (which you gain no class passives for, +EV) then you will do better because your main heal (draw essence) is going to come from more damage.

I run 42k max magicka (will be higher when I get a medium shoulder roll, ftw console RnG).
2300 SP on a destro staff (constant 3k med weaves > 200-300 more TT value on abilities).
1200 recovery w/a monster set that makes this manageable.

I 1vX people constantly, melee and magicka users; however, it will be much easier next patch. The reason I am able to do this is not because I am a great player, etc. It is because I adapt to the current environment and instead of whining about bringing SnB DK's back (2k whips are trash and so is Kena+Alchemist in 1v1's *cheese harder, bro*) learn to play the class again.

And can you explain how do you reposition when 2-3 ppl jump on you? And definitely I can say, you feel the power because you play on consoles where 90% of the ppl are casual players.

Ishammael

Moglijuana wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Thanks Jules for keeping the thread updated. I think we were all excited initially about the DK changes -- the reality of Cyrodiil combats makes them all pretty lackluster, though.

Bashev wrote: »

I said it several times. DKs need survivability. Their skills are mele range and if you want to stay in the mele you have to be able to protect yourself. This class were based on 2 simple mechanics = dynamic ultimate and blocking. Now both are gone and DKs will never perform well. Of course ZoS can buff them and give them mobility, but then they will be very close to gameplay as NBs and Sorcs.

One thing which really bothers me is why @Wrobel didnt buff GDB? What does he think about this skill, that it is useful in Cyro? We need another person who should be responsible fro the PvP part of the skills. It is clear that @wrobel does not pvp and that is why his decisions are so bad. He needs somebody who can hold him for a hand and discuss with him the PvP nature of the skills when he want to make some change.

Agreed.

Like I said on the PTS feedback thread: I would give up every single damage increase from this patch for (1) fixed dragon blood, and (2) miss chance plus ground targeted on Cinder storm.

If dragons blood worked that would be sweet but I can deal. But cinder storm! Was that a thing?? If so, wtf! I wan't some dodge chance on my dk </3

Yes, Cinder Storm used to give 30% miss chance and was cast at your feet.

xEcthelionx wrote: »

Read this post often before the patch notes dropped and then stopped. Quit whining. The problem is that you and every other scrub is trying to bring back a magicka DK that can run SnB. Stop it.

If you try to play the class where you heal or tank dps then you are going to die in 1vX. If you stack your damage super high and sacrifice some regen (which you gain no class passives for, +EV) then you will do better because your main heal (draw essence) is going to come from more damage.

I run 42k max magicka (will be higher when I get a medium shoulder roll, ftw console RnG).
2300 SP on a destro staff (constant 3k med weaves > 200-300 more TT value on abilities).
1200 recovery w/a monster set that makes this manageable.

I 1vX people constantly, melee and magicka users; however, it will be much easier next patch. The reason I am able to do this is not because I am a great player, etc. It is because I adapt to the current environment and instead of whining about bringing SnB DK's back (2k whips are trash and so is Kena+Alchemist in 1v1's *cheese harder, bro*) learn to play the class again.

How do you re-position? How do you avoid one-shot NBs from stealth or Empowered WBs into leap? What do you do when 3 people gap-close against you? In light armor with ~20k health (which is what you have to get 42k mana) you're gonna get one-shotted.

AddictionX

Oh so magicka DK is not all up there?

Great thanks welcome to the club we got jackets ...come here sit with us stamina DK's who agree with you but when we wanted stamina morphs (heck even stamina morphs that make sense) most of you guys(magicka dk's) refuted it.

Well... there's an old saying "what goes around comes around"

Ishammael

AddictionX wrote: »

Oh so magicka DK is not all up there?

Great thanks welcome to the club we got jackets ...come here sit with us stamina DK's who agree with you but when we wanted stamina morphs (heck even stamina morphs that make sense) most of you guys(magicka dk's) refuted it.

Well... there's an old saying "what goes around comes around"

What? How is the relevant to the thread at hand?

Junipus

Personally, I dislike DKs. A lot of those who play it, especially in the beginning, did so because it was the one build that allowed the to 1vX the best with as little effort as possible and made use of the unbalanced and sometimes broken mechanics. Some of these same people spent the last 12-18 months complaining that ZOS broke DKs because they couldn't 1vX with little effort any more and had to learn something other than block and lol.


However, I strongly support the call to change GDB into what it used to be where you could gain 50-80% of your health back as an emergency heal. All the other changes with the exception of broken wings are bringing DKs back into the equally broken balance of the other classes and will still allow all the good players (note: not those who cheese) to make extremely good viable magicka DKs.

Brrrofski

So endless roots hasn't become the new meta?

Bashev

Brrrofski wrote: »

So endless roots hasn't become the new meta?

I am rooted more often form bombard than talons.

Joy_Division

Jules wrote: »

3-15-16
POST THIEVES GUILD UPDATE:

Though I was extremely excited for the return of magicka DK in open world, it appears even I cannot ignore the glaring weaknesses the class still has in open world. It was about time to properly assess the changes to the class and see how it stacks up against other classes at this juncture in time.




Main issues magicka DK still has in open world:
(All three work in tandem together to create an overall very frustrating experience)

1. Lack of Healing
- Coagulating blood still functioning below other class heals (BOL) and still nerfed by Battle Spirit. Unable to be viable in Cyrodiil unless stacking health.
2. Lack of Movement & Lack of Ability to remove snares / negative effects
- Unable to escape damage of any kind due to no class movement and perma snared in open world/1vX situation. Works as a double whammy with next bullet
3. Lack of Tankiness
- Unable to tank damage due to lack of heals, blocking stam regen nerf, poorly designed passives that give 10% block damage and lackluster skills that do not offer reduction of damage

Essentially, Magicka DK suffers because it is caught in a purgatory of not being able to escape damage but also not being able to tank damage due to lack of appropriate tanking skills and heals, and lack of movement.

Please consider these changes ZOS: @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @Wrobel

- Reflective wings grants major expedition for 4s.
- Miss chance or dodge chance when standing in Cinder Storm
- Battle Spirit not affecting Dragon Blood
- Extended Chains being a traditional gap closer with stun & CC immunity afterwards

Anyone with any input please feel free to comment and I will try to discuss and analyze this going forward.


Love Always,
Jules

I would agree with most of this analysis.

In my opinion, this is less a DK problem than it is a how-ESO-has-evolved problem. Ever since 1.6, the game has trended toward ways that are unfavorable to DKs

• DKs excelled in sustained fights. It's all about burst now
• It is now difficult to "tank" in the traditional sense. It's all about damage avoidance and mobility.
• DKs relied on core mechanics that have changed without thought given to how this might affect DKs: specifically dynamic ultimate and the no stam regeneration while blocking.
• DKs also required something of a learning curve to fight against. The regulars who play now know how to deal with them.

I'm not sure giving DKs burst is a very good idea since they have by far the best sustained DPS. What I would rather see is a means that they can sustain their resources better to invest more into spell/weapon damage and thus get enough damage to kill players. The loss of dynamic ultimate really hurts here.

I think most players will agree that both DKs and templars still can't "tank." This is an uphill battle because of the constant power creep introduced in the game and the constant removal of tanking tools. Two-handed damage specs and high burst NBs are the last builds that need major evasion and both of them have it while DKs and templars do not. That is absolutely crazy. I don't care if Blinding Flashes and Cinderstorm made it inconvenient for players to wonder why they were missing. You know what is inconvenient? To see "dodged" "dodged" "dodged" "dodged" flash up on my add-on when attacking these two-shot glass cannons dominating Cyrodiil.

Regarding the 4 changes proposed here:

"- Reflective wings grants major expedition for 4s.
- Miss chance or dodge chance when standing in Cinder Storm
- Battle Spirit not affecting Dragon Blood
- Extended Chains being a traditional gap closer with stun & CC immunity afterwards"

Reflective scales + major expedition in one package would be too strong. When this skill isn't draining their resources, DKs have it up all the time which basically means major expedition up all the time. How about removal of snares instead?

Cinderstorm - yes, should have never been changed.

Dragon Blood - yes, should have always been that way.

Extended Chains - yes, it's terrible compared to every other gap closer in the game.

Ishammael

Joy_Division wrote: »

Reflective scales + major expedition in one package would be too strong. When this skill isn't draining their resources, DKs have it up all the time which basically means major expedition up all the time. How about removal of snares instead?

I agree with everything you said except this -- however, I don't necessarily disagree per se.

Reasons are in comparison:
1. To keep scales up "all the time" requires 25% of your global cooldowns which is self-balancing.
2. Sorcerer streak is a gap-closing, thru-block, AoE stun
3. NB cloak provides speed, invis, bonus damage, and (effectively) purge
4. Both (2) and (3) define the class -- wings has very much "defined" the DK class. Major Expedition may not be the best additional bonus. I would take snare removal or purge in its place. Or possibly: immunity to additional debuffs while active.

EDIT: projectiles still go through wings when they are up since forever.

Joy_Division

Ishammael wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Reflective scales + major expedition in one package would be too strong. When this skill isn't draining their resources, DKs have it up all the time which basically means major expedition up all the time. How about removal of snares instead?

I agree with everything you said except this -- however, I don't necessarily disagree per se.

Reasons are in comparison:
1. To keep scales up "all the time" requires 25% of your global cooldowns which is self-balancing.
2. Sorcerer streak is a gap-closing, thru-block, AoE stun
3. NB cloak provides speed, invis, bonus damage, and (effectively) purge
4. Both (2) and (3) define the class -- wings has very much "defined" the DK class. Major Expedition may not be the best additional bonus. I would take snare removal or purge in its place. Or possibly: immunity to additional debuffs while active.

EDIT: projectiles still go through wings when they are up since forever.

Don't have to tell me projectiles still go through wings. I'm pretty sure bow attacks from stealth are not reflected.

Well, you have to consider that even with the 4 projectile nerf, many people still hate this skill with a passion and adding something that was completely unavailable and in its own right deemed powerful as a cherry on top is going to go over like a fart in church.

As a templar, I would demand that my house be foreclosed and immediately demolished to join the "speed club" and have it attached as well to a defensive skill that is on all templar bars, like purifying, not some of them like Channeled focus. If that happened, I would not have an issue with the proposed change. I still think templars and DKs should be resilient to enemy attacks rather than look to run away. But as I mentioned above, that might not be possible considering how the game has changed.

SneaK

I just have a problem with this comparison.

Magicka DK to Magicka Templar:

GAP CLOSER- TOPPLING CHARGE VS. EXTENDED CHAINS- Toppling charge, while at times buggy, does occasionally work to be a functional gap closer. It's main advantage over Extended Chains is that it is a gap closer and a stun. This is a huge disadvantage for DK who has to slot Extended chains to get the gap close, and a secondary skill to CC their target. Most find it easier to run no gap closer at all or invasion from S&B tree instead as it does both.

DKs have Fossilize and Talons, and now have a functional gap closer. Meanwhile, TC is still hit or miss, and we can't follow with any immobilize. Feel like this comparison is really stretching.


Side note regarding the healing comparison, if your thread nerfs BoL again I vote they just remove DKs from the game. (kidding.)
I think a good fix for DB would be to have it work like a Magicka Vigor, or basically keep it's burst heal but add a HoT to it. This would allow DKs to more effectively run DW/SwB combos to tank and stack dmg like Templars.

Nafirian

Its ZOS ive lost all faith in that they will make DK good again i can kill utter nublets but going up against just as good players can be a struggle and on killing bigger grps im relying on my NB and sorc friends.

Ghostbane

Called it.

Loving SnB DK life again atm.

xEcthelionx

Bashev wrote: »

xEcthelionx wrote: »

Read this post often before the patch notes dropped and then stopped. Quit whining. The problem is that you and every other scrub is trying to bring back a magicka DK that can run SnB. Stop it.

If you try to play the class where you heal or tank dps then you are going to die in 1vX. If you stack your damage super high and sacrifice some regen (which you gain no class passives for, +EV) then you will do better because your main heal (draw essence) is going to come from more damage.

I run 42k max magicka (will be higher when I get a medium shoulder roll, ftw console RnG).
2300 SP on a destro staff (constant 3k med weaves > 200-300 more TT value on abilities).
1200 recovery w/a monster set that makes this manageable.

I 1vX people constantly, melee and magicka users; however, it will be much easier next patch. The reason I am able to do this is not because I am a great player, etc. It is because I adapt to the current environment and instead of whining about bringing SnB DK's back (2k whips are trash and so is Kena+Alchemist in 1v1's *cheese harder, bro*) learn to play the class again.

And can you explain how do you reposition when 2-3 ppl jump on you? And definitely I can say, you feel the power because you play on consoles where 90% of the ppl are casual players.

This is absolutely not the case and it is not a fact. PC has a larger player pool and more average players. Console while it does have noobs, also has a larger amount of hardcore players relative to casuals. Regardless, your point is invalid because with more casuals comes more Xv1'ing.

How you reposition when 2-3 people jump on you, you don't. You stand your ground like a beast and own their soul.

The class is not built to be able to reposition easily or effectively nor is it built to tank a large amount of damage while dishing it out (Sorc). The class currently excels in doing sustained AoE and single target dps while healing through damage not spamming GDB which btw took absolutely no skill so it is not a surprise all of the forum whiners are calling for that instead of learning to play.