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TALONS CC IS BLOCKABLE! Thanks ZOS!

  • Soris
    Soris
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    while we are here, please revert all the changes that done to templar class in update 6
    Welkynd [Templar/AD/EU]
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
    ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Derra wrote: »
    WebBull wrote: »
    The change to Talons now being blockable was intended; apologies for the undocumented change. That said, we are considering reverting this change in a future patch to make it not blockable again. What do you guys think?

    It's pretty obvious what we think paged on the 6 pages of this thread :smile:

    Touche. Just wanted to see if you all felt the same after confirming that it was indeed intended.

    Personally i feel talons being blockable is a good change. Should it become unblockable it will just be once again the all around better version of the sorcerer root.

    Currently the sorc root is not blockable but the dmg is neglible and only applies after the target was rooted for the whole duration - if it´s purged or rolled out of the dmg is lost (for the shattering prison morph).
    Currently talons is instantdmg either a dot or a dmg debuff and a root BUT it is blockable. Once this change gets reverted the sorc root once again becomes obsolete in any grp because talons will be the all around better spell for every situation like it was from release up to patch 1.7.

    Not true.

    While I agree it is silly that shattering prison does not damage enemies if they break free (which really undercuts the purpose of the morph...only cleanse/purge should escape the damage), nerfing talons does NOT solve this issue. It is independent of DK talons and ought to be analyzed on its own terms.

    I once encased an entire AD zerg in the IC sewers, a move that helped me escape back to base with all my TV stones. This would have been impossible to do with a DK, even if we reversed the previous 5 or 6 nerfs that talons has been subjected to

    If you want to argue that encase needs more love, that is your prerogative, but that belongs in another thread.
    Edited by Joy_Division on September 21, 2015 7:09PM
  • Laggus
    Laggus
    ✭✭✭✭
    Please revert the change. Theres a lot of other stuff wrong with the class that needs an overhaul but lets start with un-nerfing this change thanks.
  • LameoveR
    LameoveR
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    del
    Edited by LameoveR on September 21, 2015 7:42PM
  • frozywozy
    frozywozy
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    Armitas wrote: »
    Ardent Flame.
    • Fiery Grip. Due to the change to Y axis this skill is unreliable as a gap closer or a tanking mechanic. Sometimes it just will not work when it should work. When it does work in PvE it's disorienting because you don't know if you will come to the target or the target will come to you. Depending on the situation in a dungeon that can be catastrophic as you get pulled into a ground nuke. In PvP the pull/push is actually amazing so I'd like to see that stay and make the other morph a pull only for PvE.
    • Inferno - It's basically a clone of Magelight with a small difference, you can either hit something with a small fire ball every 5 seconds or have 7% max magicka and 2% magicka recovery. A class skill should always be better, but I'm better off taking ML if I have high magicka and Inferno if I have low magicka. DK's are using inferno, but they are using it with mage light just for the free turret damage.
    • Inferno - Sea of Flames - The chance that the measly fire ball every 5 seconds will get a killing blow is too slim, the amount of magicka it can give seems to have been written in 1.5 before the inflated stats. It's not a valuable or even a noticeable morph.
    • Kindling - The nerf to secondary effect proc chance has really made this a wasted passive. 66% more burning isn't helpful when the chance to apply burning is so low.

    Draconic Power
    • Dragon Blood - Due the 50% healing nerf this skill is a dangerous heal. To get any heal output at all you have to fall below execute range. With the 50% heal nerf you have to be near dead to get anything out of it. It's a terrible heal right now because it's completely ineffective till you are at 1 shot range execute range and the heal won't even take you out of execute range
    • Dragon Blood - Green dragon blood - With Tripots the stamina recovery on this is useless. I would like majors to provide minors if a major is already active. So if a tripots has been consumed and you pop GDB it should give you a minor stamina recovery.


    Earthen Heart
    • Corrosive Armor - This needs to actually penetrate armor, not just physical mitigation. There is no reason to make an ultimate so divisive between stamina and magicka builds.
    • Obsidian Shard - I would not use this to heal someone, I would use healing ward if I needed to save them. It doesn't heal for much, even less at 50% healing, it does less damage than the other morph and the situation where the guy next to enemy X would need this tiny heal and the enemy CC'd are limited. I really don't know why this exists. It is incomplete.
    • Molten Weapons - This is a bad execute in PvP as it requires a cast, a GCD, then a fully charged heavy attack which can just be dodge rolled, blocked, healed out of execute range, or you can get CC'd while casting it. There is too much hassle and things that can go wrong here for an execute. It completely ignores the entire purpose of an execute, which is to quickly take advantage of an opponents low health. In PvE the full heavy requirement gives you wasted seconds. If you are charging your heavy attack and have to dodge roll, then you lost the buff entirely when you release the shot. If you have 2 seconds remaining but need 3 seconds to finish a heavy attack then 2 seconds of the skill have just been wasted. All ability to self modulate it was taken in 1.7. There is no reason for this skill to be so complicated and restrictive. Both Morphs are currently a DPS loss in PvE, and people are reporting that molten armaments is only working 40% of the time.
    • Battle roar - Should reference your highest stat for the replenishment. We don't have straight recovery on a DK, this is our resource management tool. Making it based on each stat individually leaves you in a magicka build not getting enough stamina, or a stamina build not getting enough magicka from it. If I'm in a magicka build I will more likely need stamina, not my primary stat. You had the right idea, just have it reference the highest stat.


    Core Problems
      Our class has no built in escape mechanics, it survives on heals and defense. For heals it relies on DragonBlood which has been ruined by the global healing nerf such that to use it efficiently at all you have to be on deaths doorstep and even then one use won't even pull you out of execute range. For defense it relies on armor, shielding, and blocking. Damage shields, which we already sacrificed dps for have been cut in half while skills are still hitting for 20k. Our shields can no longer cover the damage we are taking. While armor has been improved in light armor, blocking was destroyed as a light armor option. This leaves us stuck in whatever fight we encounter with none of our core class focuses (heals and defense)to rely on but armor which can still be highly penetrated. Our flame whip has a terribly low base damage, only slightly higher than deepslash from s/b. This is fine in PvE because we can couple it with 2 of our dots for competitive dps. However in PvP Dots are trivialized by cloaks and cleanses. So I have to waste 3 precious skill slots to make up for the lack of whip dps, and even then they can effortlessly be removed or even result in a very powerful heal through cleanse. We have 4 classes to face out there, wasting 3 of those skill slots just to do competative damage is not an option. So we are stuck spamming a single skill that is not competitive with the other classes. This is why stamina DK is so popular, they can escape all of our class limitations and get the tools they need to succeed through WB, Crit Rush, and Vigor. With the exception of Stam DK's we are unable to do high damage and be survivable. NB's can pump everything into damage and rely on cloak for defense, sorcs can pump everything into magicka and rely on BE and bubbles to do dps and survive. Their Damage and Defense is parallel, or at the very least they don't interfere with each other. There is no longer any way for the DK to achieve the same feat in a magicka build. We lost that in 1.6 and 1.7.

    My man.

    I finally made the decision to retire my AR44 DK last week. I never played any other character since release but after watching lord @fengrush play his stamina sorc on twitch, it convinced me to start leveling one until they finally fix magicka DKs. Until that happens, I will focus on my 15k wrecking blows instead of 6k whips and 25k two-handed heavy attacks from stealth instead of fire staff 12k heavy attacks from stealth (both with the same amount of champion points in weapon expertises). Won't even talk about the difference in their mobility and survivability. Let's just say that a stam sorc can roll with 13k spell/physical resistances and do just fine in 1vX while a magicka DK will struggle with 32k spell resist and 22k physical resist.

    This being said, I'm glad that talons change will be reverted to what it used to be. One step in the right direction.
    Edited by frozywozy on September 21, 2015 7:39PM
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  • wraith808
    wraith808
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    Darlgon wrote: »
    WebBull wrote: »
    The change to Talons now being blockable was intended; apologies for the undocumented change. That said, we are considering reverting this change in a future patch to make it not blockable again. What do you guys think?

    It's pretty obvious what we think paged on the 6 pages of this thread :smile:

    Touche. Just wanted to see if you all felt the same after confirming that it was indeed intended.

    Sorry Gina, but that you guys even thought this was a good idea, much less had to ask..twice..

    Epic_Facepalm_by_RJTH-1-.jpg

    She's coming in here to ask and verify and do her job (she's neither a developer nor a designer, btw) ... and you abuse her? Really? With a silly meme? Sometimes, silence is the best course if you don't have anything constructive to say.
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  • Rune_Relic
    Rune_Relic
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    Bashev wrote: »
    One more skill that I can remove from my bar.

    Good thing we only have 5 slots ;)
    Anything that can be exploited will be exploited
  • x99Needles
    x99Needles
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    The change to Talons now being blockable was intended; apologies for the undocumented change. That said, we are considering reverting this change in a future patch to make it not blockable again. What do you guys think?

    The fact that this change was “intended” is actually very disheartening. From the beginning of the game CCs have had two forms that separated them. CCs referred to as a Hard CC, Fear, knockdown, Stun, etc. And then you have your Soft CCs, Roots, snares, etc. This mechanic is widely accepted and used by most all games with Crowd Control. I don’t think it is actually necessary to explain Crowd Control to the Devs, and I am not trying to be condescending. I’m simply laying the ground work for why this “intended” change is a depravity against Dragonknights.

    I’m not sure what the argument is for making Talons CC blockable, though I am sure if we really look we could trace it back to a forum warrior QQing NB who was simply bad at PvP could not accept it and blamed it on a skill instead of his capability. Unfortunately as is the case for most games, if you want something changed, cry about it enough and the Devs will answer to the hordes. This issue with making Talons CC blockable is that by definition Talons “Roots” you. This is an accepted Soft CC in most all games and has been for the past year in ESOTU. So making this mechanic blockable is not only unfair to Dragonknights, but also violates the core mechanics of how you have chosen to make your CCs work.

    I will list some examples for my argument.
    Sorcerer:
    Dark Magic – Encase
    The skill itself is a simple root that receives additional effects after morphing, the pre-morphed and morphed versions are NOT blockable and both after effects of the skill are received no matter what.

    Dark Magic – Daedric Mines
    Again, all three versions of this skill immobilize you regardless of block, and all effects are received after the duration of the skill.

    Nightblade:
    Assassination – Teleport Strike
    The base version of this skill as well as one of its morphs, Ambush, immobilize the target for 1 second after cast. This effect is NOT blockable, blocking it reduces damage done but neither negates the root nor the empower buff from Ambush.

    Siphoning – Cripple
    When morphed into Crippling Grasp, this skill immobilizes and damages on impact. The damage is mitigatable through block, the root is NOT.

    Dragonknight:
    Earthen Heart – Petrify
    Once morphed into Fossilize, the stun from this skill actually goes through block, and more to the point, the enemy is rooted afterwards regardless of block.

    Bow: Arrow Spray
    Morphed into Bombard, this skill is an AoE root and additional snare when the root ends, again you CANNOT block the root from this skill.

    Fighters Guild: Trap Beast
    All three versions of this skill immobilize your opponent for six seconds and this is not blockable.

    Dragonknight:
    Draconic Power – Talons.
    All three versions of this skill’s innate CC are now BLOCKABLE and damage is reduced, the DoT on burning talons is still applied but weaker through block, and the minor maim from Choking Talons is still applied for 4 seconds. Also because the CC is BLOCKABLE allies will still receive the prompt to synergize “impale” but attempting to synergize fails because the root which allows the synergy has been blocked.

    There is a very simple indisputable fact that up to this point ZOS has not treated Roots as a hard CC, AKA NOT blockable. So this is not a question of whether or not you should revert this change, rather if you intend to go forward treating talons and only specifically talons as a Hard CC somehow, you need to adjust the aforementioned skills as well. Because if Talons is a Hard CC, then they all are, are they not? This would be a massive core change to the game and the way it is played.

    When I first noticed that my Talons weren’t appearing I thought for sure something was wrong, so I tested with an opponent and discovered that he was able to Block my talons completely, mitigating damage dealt and preventing the root and synergy completely absolving the skill’s use on my bar. There was no question in my mind this was unintended, having Talons blockable completely ruins the skill. As a Dragonknight from BETA, I can say that we have received many deserved, and many questionable nerfs over the last year.

    You’ve nerfed our banners. You ruined our class gap closer adjusting its axis because of exploitable mechanics. You destroyed the purpose behind Fragmented Shield, probably the best zerg buster you ever had. You made Molten Weapons a joke and it’s our supposed class execute. You clipped our Wings because of people’s inability to watch for the effect and simply not attack us with ranged skills while we have a Reflect up. You actually made Dragon Blood useless in cyrodiil with the changes to healing in 2.1. And now, you have crushed our Talons.

    I love my Dragonknight, I love the class, and I love playing it. Dragonknights got a bad rep in the beginning due to undeniable balance issues that were eventually adjusted. However since then, every issue/question of balance in cyrodiil has unfairly fallen squarely on the shoulders of Dragonknights and this latest offense is unforgivable.

    Talons CC needs to reverted to UNBLOCKABLE, or you need to adjust every other Root in this game and state that Roots are now considered Hard CCs. There is no reason to target Dragonknights here, Talons is no more unfair than any other Root in the game. It’s just the one more QQ’d about, because Dragonknight.

    I will be watching for ZOS to appropriately revert this change they tried to implement without so much as a patch note. Or as I said state that they now consider roots a Hard CC.

    I will be watching, with my Sorcerer on standby.

    Thank you.
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  • Teargrants
    Teargrants
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    x99Needles wrote: »
    I will be watching, with my Sorcerer on standby.
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  • Dredlord
    Dredlord
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    Am I in a time warp?

    So are all roots blockable now or are we playing the "lets all make random inconsistent balance changes so everyone's head explodes" game?

    They been playing this game with temps since beta, suck it up and chill out.
  • Ghostbane
    Ghostbane
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    x99Needles wrote: »
    The change to Talons now being blockable was intended; apologies for the undocumented change. That said, we are considering reverting this change in a future patch to make it not blockable again. What do you guys think?

    The fact that this change was “intended” is actually very disheartening. From the beginning of the game CCs have had two forms that separated them. CCs referred to as a Hard CC, Fear, knockdown, Stun, etc. And then you have your Soft CCs, Roots, snares, etc. This mechanic is widely accepted and used by most all games with Crowd Control. I don’t think it is actually necessary to explain Crowd Control to the Devs, and I am not trying to be condescending. I’m simply laying the ground work for why this “intended” change is a depravity against Dragonknights.

    I’m not sure what the argument is for making Talons CC blockable, though I am sure if we really look we could trace it back to a forum warrior QQing NB who was simply bad at PvP could not accept it and blamed it on a skill instead of his capability. Unfortunately as is the case for most games, if you want something changed, cry about it enough and the Devs will answer to the hordes. This issue with making Talons CC blockable is that by definition Talons “Roots” you. This is an accepted Soft CC in most all games and has been for the past year in ESOTU. So making this mechanic blockable is not only unfair to Dragonknights, but also violates the core mechanics of how you have chosen to make your CCs work.

    I will list some examples for my argument.
    Sorcerer:
    Dark Magic – Encase
    The skill itself is a simple root that receives additional effects after morphing, the pre-morphed and morphed versions are NOT blockable and both after effects of the skill are received no matter what.

    Dark Magic – Daedric Mines
    Again, all three versions of this skill immobilize you regardless of block, and all effects are received after the duration of the skill.

    Nightblade:
    Assassination – Teleport Strike
    The base version of this skill as well as one of its morphs, Ambush, immobilize the target for 1 second after cast. This effect is NOT blockable, blocking it reduces damage done but neither negates the root nor the empower buff from Ambush.

    Siphoning – Cripple
    When morphed into Crippling Grasp, this skill immobilizes and damages on impact. The damage is mitigatable through block, the root is NOT.

    Dragonknight:
    Earthen Heart – Petrify
    Once morphed into Fossilize, the stun from this skill actually goes through block, and more to the point, the enemy is rooted afterwards regardless of block.

    Bow: Arrow Spray
    Morphed into Bombard, this skill is an AoE root and additional snare when the root ends, again you CANNOT block the root from this skill.

    Fighters Guild: Trap Beast
    All three versions of this skill immobilize your opponent for six seconds and this is not blockable.

    Dragonknight:
    Draconic Power – Talons.
    All three versions of this skill’s innate CC are now BLOCKABLE and damage is reduced, the DoT on burning talons is still applied but weaker through block, and the minor maim from Choking Talons is still applied for 4 seconds. Also because the CC is BLOCKABLE allies will still receive the prompt to synergize “impale” but attempting to synergize fails because the root which allows the synergy has been blocked.

    There is a very simple indisputable fact that up to this point ZOS has not treated Roots as a hard CC, AKA NOT blockable. So this is not a question of whether or not you should revert this change, rather if you intend to go forward treating talons and only specifically talons as a Hard CC somehow, you need to adjust the aforementioned skills as well. Because if Talons is a Hard CC, then they all are, are they not? This would be a massive core change to the game and the way it is played.

    When I first noticed that my Talons weren’t appearing I thought for sure something was wrong, so I tested with an opponent and discovered that he was able to Block my talons completely, mitigating damage dealt and preventing the root and synergy completely absolving the skill’s use on my bar. There was no question in my mind this was unintended, having Talons blockable completely ruins the skill. As a Dragonknight from BETA, I can say that we have received many deserved, and many questionable nerfs over the last year.

    You’ve nerfed our banners. You ruined our class gap closer adjusting its axis because of exploitable mechanics. You destroyed the purpose behind Fragmented Shield, probably the best zerg buster you ever had. You made Molten Weapons a joke and it’s our supposed class execute. You clipped our Wings because of people’s inability to watch for the effect and simply not attack us with ranged skills while we have a Reflect up. You actually made Dragon Blood useless in cyrodiil with the changes to healing in 2.1. And now, you have crushed our Talons.

    I love my Dragonknight, I love the class, and I love playing it. Dragonknights got a bad rep in the beginning due to undeniable balance issues that were eventually adjusted. However since then, every issue/question of balance in cyrodiil has unfairly fallen squarely on the shoulders of Dragonknights and this latest offense is unforgivable.

    Talons CC needs to reverted to UNBLOCKABLE, or you need to adjust every other Root in this game and state that Roots are now considered Hard CCs. There is no reason to target Dragonknights here, Talons is no more unfair than any other Root in the game. It’s just the one more QQ’d about, because Dragonknight.

    I will be watching for ZOS to appropriately revert this change they tried to implement without so much as a patch note. Or as I said state that they now consider roots a Hard CC.

    I will be watching, with my Sorcerer on standby.

    Thank you.

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  • Dredlord
    Dredlord
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    Tonturri wrote: »
    As a magicka sorcerer, please give the poor DKs back their Talons. I feel so bad for them.

    But it is really fun to troll these threads and watch them cry. Funny, I don't recall any DKs coming to our defense regarding BE.

    Lel, you want me to defend BE when the fact that you could bolt out of any root made talons useless in the first place? Just get out.

    If roots prevented the use of BE would you support a revert to that nerf? I'm all for having more counters and less nerfs.

    I even argued against the scales nerf if they put an offensive purge skill in the game.

    But enough of that, lets not derail the thread.

    Revert Talons change.

    I wouldn't support that type of nerf to BE because I understand sorcs need that mobility, I do however support the the cost increase stacking. That guy I was responding too is here trolling the forums and said he wont support us because we didn't support sorcs when the cost was increased on BE, yet I'm sure each DK here was effected by a similar and even harsher change to blocking.

    But you're right, let's not derail this.

    The sorc would just block cast BE if need be...

    This nerf is well deserved and DK,s will be fine.

    The reason for all the whining is they are so used to easy mode, its a great move towards game balance.
  • eventide03b14a_ESO
    eventide03b14a_ESO
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    Darlgon wrote: »
    The change to Talons now being blockable was intended; apologies for the undocumented change. That said, we are considering reverting this change in a future patch to make it not blockable again. What do you guys think?

    Thanks for responding.

    I would LOVE to know the lack of logic behind making a GROUND AOE blockable. Can I now block AoE Lightning, Fire and Fear? How about making them REFLECT with my flappy flaps? I mean, it works with Meteor.

    Meteor is targetable. Also, Talons are a little OP anyway. Just be grateful they still work.
    :trollin:
  • eventide03b14a_ESO
    eventide03b14a_ESO
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  • Darlgon
    Darlgon
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    wraith808 wrote: »
    Darlgon wrote: »
    WebBull wrote: »
    The change to Talons now being blockable was intended; apologies for the undocumented change. That said, we are considering reverting this change in a future patch to make it not blockable again. What do you guys think?

    It's pretty obvious what we think paged on the 6 pages of this thread :smile:

    Touche. Just wanted to see if you all felt the same after confirming that it was indeed intended.

    Sorry Gina, but that you guys even thought this was a good idea, much less had to ask..twice..

    Epic_Facepalm_by_RJTH-1-.jpg

    She's coming in here to ask and verify and do her job (she's neither a developer nor a designer, btw) ... and you abuse her? Really? With a silly meme? Sometimes, silence is the best course if you don't have anything constructive to say.

    Gina is the messenger, and, just maybe, she is more used to my posts than you might think. Memes are an art form SHE uses to communicate also. That statement is HARDLY abuse. Right now, she is in the forums as the spokesperson for ZoS and the message to carry back to management? "Why did you even think DKs would like making one of their few CC abilities useless, ever?""
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    Where is new content? Sigh.
  • Dredlord
    Dredlord
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    BTW ZOS make the Templar ground aoe cc (blazing spear) ignore block too because if you're gonna listen to some of the ridiculous logic in this thread what the hell right?
  • vortexman11
    vortexman11
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dredlord wrote: »
    BTW ZOS make the Templar ground aoe cc (blazing spear) ignore block too because if you're gonna listen to some of the ridiculous logic in this thread what the hell right?

    Luminous Shards goes through block, you got the wrong morph.
    Guild of Shadows ~Elite~
    Învictus ~Council~

    EP | Vortexman | Dunmer DragonKnight | LvL 50 | Rank 50 | Former Emperor of Haderus & Chillrend |
    EP | Phobos | Altmer Nightblade | LvL 50 | Rank 26 |
    EP | Cheezus Sliced | Argonian Templar | LvL 50 | Rank 30 |
    EP | Eterno Tempesta | Altmer Sorcerer | LvL 50 | Rank 33 |
    DC | Vortexman | Dunmer DragonKnight | LvL 50 | Rank 12 |
    DC | Divine Storm | Altmer Sorcerer | LvL 50 | Rank 04 |
    EP | Pocket Vortex | Bosmer Templar | LvL 50 | Rank 24 |
    EP | Vortexman | Redguard DragonKnight | LvL 50 | Rank 28 |
    EP | Fungal Growth | Argonian Warden | LvL 50 | Rank 26 |
    EP | Eternal Guardian | Bosmer Warden | LvL 50 | Rank 13 |
    and a few other random toons

    Teaching by example > https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5479085#Comment_5479085
  • Armitas
    Armitas
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Glad someone mentioned frag shield because I completely forgot it even existed. It's a terrible shield and terrible damage, thats not best of both worlds, it's worst of both worlds.

    The skill was essentially squashed in a hurry to fix it with little time spent actually making sure it remained a valuable morph in the aftermath. They basically smashed it like a bug and walked away from it. This basically how I feel about several of our nerfs, if feels more like a smash job than a balance job.
    Edited by Armitas on September 21, 2015 9:03PM
    Retired.
    Nord mDK
  • Dredlord
    Dredlord
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Double post
    Edited by Dredlord on September 21, 2015 9:19PM
  • Dredlord
    Dredlord
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    W
    Dredlord wrote: »
    BTW ZOS make the Templar ground aoe cc (blazing spear) ignore block too because if you're gonna listen to some of the ridiculous logic in this thread what the hell right?

    Luminous Shards goes through block, you got the wrong morph.

    WHy would I ask for the one that already ignores block to be changed to ignore block bro?
  • thelordoffelines
    thelordoffelines
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dredlord wrote: »
    W
    Dredlord wrote: »
    BTW ZOS make the Templar ground aoe cc (blazing spear) ignore block too because if you're gonna listen to some of the ridiculous logic in this thread what the hell right?

    Luminous Shards goes through block, you got the wrong morph.

    WHy would I ask for the one that already ignores block to be changed to ignore block bro?

    You said "change the templar ground aoe..." Implying that you didnt know that it did go through block. Or
  • Trayyacakes
    Trayyacakes
    ✭✭✭✭
    Dredlord wrote: »
    W
    Dredlord wrote: »
    BTW ZOS make the Templar ground aoe cc (blazing spear) ignore block too because if you're gonna listen to some of the ridiculous logic in this thread what the hell right?

    Luminous Shards goes through block, you got the wrong morph.

    WHy would I ask for the one that already ignores block to be changed to ignore block bro?

    This thread is about a root, not a stun. No root in game is blockable, besides talons. Only stun that ignores block in the game is fear. The other CCs that go through block break on damage making them more like disorients. I'm sorry you play a templar, the other red headed step child, and that a magicka DK killed you because that is the only reason for thinking talons should be blockable. If you want to make another thread about bugged templar skills or things you want for your class go for it, but for you to come here and argue the root on talons should remain blockable while no other roots in game are... you are either a troll, don't care about balance, don't know what balance is, or a combination of the three.
    Edited by Trayyacakes on September 21, 2015 9:41PM
    Bjorn Uldnost
  • Huckdabuck
    Huckdabuck
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    x99Needles wrote: »
    The change to Talons now being blockable was intended; apologies for the undocumented change. That said, we are considering reverting this change in a future patch to make it not blockable again. What do you guys think?

    The fact that this change was “intended” is actually very disheartening. From the beginning of the game CCs have had two forms that separated them. CCs referred to as a Hard CC, Fear, knockdown, Stun, etc. And then you have your Soft CCs, Roots, snares, etc. This mechanic is widely accepted and used by most all games with Crowd Control. I don’t think it is actually necessary to explain Crowd Control to the Devs, and I am not trying to be condescending. I’m simply laying the ground work for why this “intended” change is a depravity against Dragonknights.

    I’m not sure what the argument is for making Talons CC blockable, though I am sure if we really look we could trace it back to a forum warrior QQing NB who was simply bad at PvP could not accept it and blamed it on a skill instead of his capability. Unfortunately as is the case for most games, if you want something changed, cry about it enough and the Devs will answer to the hordes. This issue with making Talons CC blockable is that by definition Talons “Roots” you. This is an accepted Soft CC in most all games and has been for the past year in ESOTU. So making this mechanic blockable is not only unfair to Dragonknights, but also violates the core mechanics of how you have chosen to make your CCs work.

    I will list some examples for my argument.
    Sorcerer:
    Dark Magic – Encase
    The skill itself is a simple root that receives additional effects after morphing, the pre-morphed and morphed versions are NOT blockable and both after effects of the skill are received no matter what.

    Dark Magic – Daedric Mines
    Again, all three versions of this skill immobilize you regardless of block, and all effects are received after the duration of the skill.

    Nightblade:
    Assassination – Teleport Strike
    The base version of this skill as well as one of its morphs, Ambush, immobilize the target for 1 second after cast. This effect is NOT blockable, blocking it reduces damage done but neither negates the root nor the empower buff from Ambush.

    Siphoning – Cripple
    When morphed into Crippling Grasp, this skill immobilizes and damages on impact. The damage is mitigatable through block, the root is NOT.

    Dragonknight:
    Earthen Heart – Petrify
    Once morphed into Fossilize, the stun from this skill actually goes through block, and more to the point, the enemy is rooted afterwards regardless of block.

    Bow: Arrow Spray
    Morphed into Bombard, this skill is an AoE root and additional snare when the root ends, again you CANNOT block the root from this skill.

    Fighters Guild: Trap Beast
    All three versions of this skill immobilize your opponent for six seconds and this is not blockable.

    Dragonknight:
    Draconic Power – Talons.
    All three versions of this skill’s innate CC are now BLOCKABLE and damage is reduced, the DoT on burning talons is still applied but weaker through block, and the minor maim from Choking Talons is still applied for 4 seconds. Also because the CC is BLOCKABLE allies will still receive the prompt to synergize “impale” but attempting to synergize fails because the root which allows the synergy has been blocked.

    There is a very simple indisputable fact that up to this point ZOS has not treated Roots as a hard CC, AKA NOT blockable. So this is not a question of whether or not you should revert this change, rather if you intend to go forward treating talons and only specifically talons as a Hard CC somehow, you need to adjust the aforementioned skills as well. Because if Talons is a Hard CC, then they all are, are they not? This would be a massive core change to the game and the way it is played.

    When I first noticed that my Talons weren’t appearing I thought for sure something was wrong, so I tested with an opponent and discovered that he was able to Block my talons completely, mitigating damage dealt and preventing the root and synergy completely absolving the skill’s use on my bar. There was no question in my mind this was unintended, having Talons blockable completely ruins the skill. As a Dragonknight from BETA, I can say that we have received many deserved, and many questionable nerfs over the last year.

    You’ve nerfed our banners. You ruined our class gap closer adjusting its axis because of exploitable mechanics. You destroyed the purpose behind Fragmented Shield, probably the best zerg buster you ever had. You made Molten Weapons a joke and it’s our supposed class execute. You clipped our Wings because of people’s inability to watch for the effect and simply not attack us with ranged skills while we have a Reflect up. You actually made Dragon Blood useless in cyrodiil with the changes to healing in 2.1. And now, you have crushed our Talons.

    I love my Dragonknight, I love the class, and I love playing it. Dragonknights got a bad rep in the beginning due to undeniable balance issues that were eventually adjusted. However since then, every issue/question of balance in cyrodiil has unfairly fallen squarely on the shoulders of Dragonknights and this latest offense is unforgivable.

    Talons CC needs to reverted to UNBLOCKABLE, or you need to adjust every other Root in this game and state that Roots are now considered Hard CCs. There is no reason to target Dragonknights here, Talons is no more unfair than any other Root in the game. It’s just the one more QQ’d about, because Dragonknight.

    I will be watching for ZOS to appropriately revert this change they tried to implement without so much as a patch note. Or as I said state that they now consider roots a Hard CC.

    I will be watching, with my Sorcerer on standby.

    Thank you.

    Bulbybear gets a +1 for this post. I'm still curious as to which idiot dev thought this would be a great change to implement.
    Edited by Huckdabuck on September 21, 2015 10:46PM
    Texashighelf - VR16 Sorcerer EP NA - FILTHY BARBARIAN
    Texasimperial - VR16 Dragonknight EP NA - How do you like your DK?
    Texas'Imperial - VR16 Dragonknight DC NA - How do you like your DK?
    Texas-Imperial - VR16 Templar DC NA - Queue Clogging Lagsploitter
    Texas Highelf - VR16 Sorcerer DC NA - Queue Clogging Lagsploitter
    Texas Imperial - VR16 Nightblade DC NA - Queue Clogging Lagsploitter
    It's a very grey area.
  • Antirob
    Antirob
    ✭✭✭
    This is the most ridiculous non-nonsensical nerf in eso. for the love of god unnerf it.
    @ZOS_RichLambert
    @ZOS_GinaBruno
    @Zos_Eric_Wrobel
    Vehemence
    Antirob - Dragonknight
  • aco5712
    aco5712
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    guys i figured it out.... the devs are using internet explorer and are getting nerf threads from 1.3 just now and hence why they thought this needed to be nerfed
    Banned for Naming and Shaming exploiters. Great ideology ZOS.
    #FreeLeo

    Main: Vir Cor | Dragonknight
    Alt: Leo Cor | Nightblade
    Alt: Leonidas Cor | Templar

    Guild: K-Hole
    Youtube: CorESO
    DK PvP Tank/DPS Hybrid Build (2.1+): Cor Leonis
  • Lamiai
    Lamiai
    ✭✭✭✭

    x99Needles wrote: »
    The change to Talons now being blockable was intended; apologies for the undocumented change. That said, we are considering reverting this change in a future patch to make it not blockable again. What do you guys think?

    The fact that this change was “intended” is actually very disheartening. From the beginning of the game CCs have had two forms that separated them. CCs referred to as a Hard CC, Fear, knockdown, Stun, etc. And then you have your Soft CCs, Roots, snares, etc. This mechanic is widely accepted and used by most all games with Crowd Control. I don’t think it is actually necessary to explain Crowd Control to the Devs, and I am not trying to be condescending. I’m simply laying the ground work for why this “intended” change is a depravity against Dragonknights.

    I’m not sure what the argument is for making Talons CC blockable, though I am sure if we really look we could trace it back to a forum warrior QQing NB who was simply bad at PvP could not accept it and blamed it on a skill instead of his capability. Unfortunately as is the case for most games, if you want something changed, cry about it enough and the Devs will answer to the hordes. This issue with making Talons CC blockable is that by definition Talons “Roots” you. This is an accepted Soft CC in most all games and has been for the past year in ESOTU. So making this mechanic blockable is not only unfair to Dragonknights, but also violates the core mechanics of how you have chosen to make your CCs work.

    I will list some examples for my argument.
    Sorcerer:
    Dark Magic – Encase
    The skill itself is a simple root that receives additional effects after morphing, the pre-morphed and morphed versions are NOT blockable and both after effects of the skill are received no matter what.

    Dark Magic – Daedric Mines
    Again, all three versions of this skill immobilize you regardless of block, and all effects are received after the duration of the skill.

    Nightblade:
    Assassination – Teleport Strike
    The base version of this skill as well as one of its morphs, Ambush, immobilize the target for 1 second after cast. This effect is NOT blockable, blocking it reduces damage done but neither negates the root nor the empower buff from Ambush.

    Siphoning – Cripple
    When morphed into Crippling Grasp, this skill immobilizes and damages on impact. The damage is mitigatable through block, the root is NOT.

    Dragonknight:
    Earthen Heart – Petrify
    Once morphed into Fossilize, the stun from this skill actually goes through block, and more to the point, the enemy is rooted afterwards regardless of block.

    Bow: Arrow Spray
    Morphed into Bombard, this skill is an AoE root and additional snare when the root ends, again you CANNOT block the root from this skill.

    Fighters Guild: Trap Beast
    All three versions of this skill immobilize your opponent for six seconds and this is not blockable.

    Dragonknight:
    Draconic Power – Talons.
    All three versions of this skill’s innate CC are now BLOCKABLE and damage is reduced, the DoT on burning talons is still applied but weaker through block, and the minor maim from Choking Talons is still applied for 4 seconds. Also because the CC is BLOCKABLE allies will still receive the prompt to synergize “impale” but attempting to synergize fails because the root which allows the synergy has been blocked.

    There is a very simple indisputable fact that up to this point ZOS has not treated Roots as a hard CC, AKA NOT blockable. So this is not a question of whether or not you should revert this change, rather if you intend to go forward treating talons and only specifically talons as a Hard CC somehow, you need to adjust the aforementioned skills as well. Because if Talons is a Hard CC, then they all are, are they not? This would be a massive core change to the game and the way it is played.

    When I first noticed that my Talons weren’t appearing I thought for sure something was wrong, so I tested with an opponent and discovered that he was able to Block my talons completely, mitigating damage dealt and preventing the root and synergy completely absolving the skill’s use on my bar. There was no question in my mind this was unintended, having Talons blockable completely ruins the skill. As a Dragonknight from BETA, I can say that we have received many deserved, and many questionable nerfs over the last year.

    You’ve nerfed our banners. You ruined our class gap closer adjusting its axis because of exploitable mechanics. You destroyed the purpose behind Fragmented Shield, probably the best zerg buster you ever had. You made Molten Weapons a joke and it’s our supposed class execute. You clipped our Wings because of people’s inability to watch for the effect and simply not attack us with ranged skills while we have a Reflect up. You actually made Dragon Blood useless in cyrodiil with the changes to healing in 2.1. And now, you have crushed our Talons.

    I love my Dragonknight, I love the class, and I love playing it. Dragonknights got a bad rep in the beginning due to undeniable balance issues that were eventually adjusted. However since then, every issue/question of balance in cyrodiil has unfairly fallen squarely on the shoulders of Dragonknights and this latest offense is unforgivable.

    Talons CC needs to reverted to UNBLOCKABLE, or you need to adjust every other Root in this game and state that Roots are now considered Hard CCs. There is no reason to target Dragonknights here, Talons is no more unfair than any other Root in the game. It’s just the one more QQ’d about, because Dragonknight.

    I will be watching for ZOS to appropriately revert this change they tried to implement without so much as a patch note. Or as I said state that they now consider roots a Hard CC.

    I will be watching, with my Sorcerer on standby.

    Thank you.

    DKs unite...together we can get through this!
    R.I.P patch 1.5 ~ Never Forget.
  • Personofsecrets
    Personofsecrets
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Antirob wrote: »
    This is the most ridiculous non-nonsensical nerf in eso. for the love of god unnerf it.
    @ZOS_RichLambert
    @ZOS_GinaBruno
    @Zos_Eric_Wrobel

    Don't forget stam regen nerf.
    Don't tank

    "In future content we will probably adjust this model somewhat (The BOP model). It's definitely nice to be able to find a cool item that you don't need and trade it to someone who can't wait to get their hands on it." - Wrobel
  • PainfulFAFA
    PainfulFAFA
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ghostbane wrote: »
    Let us see what tomorrows patch says. Anyone like to take a guess?

    I'll start,

    "Portrait in Skywatch bank is now no longer at a slant"
    Armitas wrote: »
    Glad someone mentioned frag shield because I completely forgot it even existed. It's a terrible shield and terrible damage, thats not best of both worlds, it's worst of both worlds.

    The skill was essentially squashed in a hurry to fix it with little time spent actually making sure it remained a valuable morph in the aftermath. They basically smashed it like a bug and walked away from it. This basically how I feel about several of our nerfs, if feels more like a smash job than a balance job.

    I clearly remember Summer 2014 in ESO playing on my DK using Fragmented shield. It was the best counter to zergs because you'd have 2-3 DK's spam that ability on your group and the zergs would just drop 1 by 1. They would have to worry about healing AND dpsing where TOO MUCH dps would get the enemies killed.

    I'll admit, it was a bit op but it didnt need to be squashed like that. The damage couldve been tuned to scale off of something but clearly the pvp department don't understand their game.
    PC NA
    Aztec | AZTEC | Ahztec | Aztehk | Master of Mnem
    MagDK | Magplar | Magward | Mageblade | Stamsorc

  • Dredlord
    Dredlord
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dredlord wrote: »
    W
    Dredlord wrote: »
    BTW ZOS make the Templar ground aoe cc (blazing spear) ignore block too because if you're gonna listen to some of the ridiculous logic in this thread what the hell right?

    Luminous Shards goes through block, you got the wrong morph.

    WHy would I ask for the one that already ignores block to be changed to ignore block bro?

    You said "change the templar ground aoe..." Implying that you didnt know that it did go through block. Or

    Or is right...additionally because I specifically named which one? But you cut that outa the quote so you wouldn't look stupid?
    Edited by Dredlord on September 22, 2015 12:08AM
  • hellkrasher
    hellkrasher
    ✭✭✭
    DK without talons is like... nothing.

    Also, why talons is blockeable but encase and other inmovilices are not? Not to mention that those skills belong to classes that are in a great spot already.

    DKs are only "balanced" when you have a lot of CP, without them you have no shields, no burst, no heals in pvp.

    This change is to say the least, the most stupid one ive seen.

    First time im really pissed off about game changes, i dont know in what mind ALL the dk builds need a nerf like this... i really dont. I mean, some builds "may" be strong (dont really think any DK build is even close to OP in any way or form) but nerfing talons is like nerfing all of the dk builds.

    Just stupid.
    Aldmeri Dominion Characters: Hellkrasher, Hellcrasher, Hell Krasher, Hell Crasher, Hellcrash.

    VR16 Dunmer DK
    VR16 Arognian Templar
    VR14 Argonian DK
    VR14 Altmer Sorcerer
    VR11 Khajit Nightblade
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