Why do sorcs refuse to think outside the box?

Mythk

Our old friend @Germtrocity wanted me to leave a message for him, and I quote:

"I don't understand why there is so much hatred for the sorcerer class and (more specifically) my key build and playstyle (because lets be honest, most sorcerers were basically running a variant of the same build I've been refining and tuning since 1.3). Whenever I hopped onto my Dragonknight, I was able to defeat almost all sorcerers just by using my fundamental knowledge of the game. The same goes for when I was able to get on a magicka Nightblade. I was able to play the class for just 5 days before being able to defeat other sorcerers considered "top" and many that were using my build.

Shield stacking QQ has always been a L2P issue, as I have proved time and time again. I have defeated the top sorcerers and other players on my Dragonknight and on a Nightblade that I had less than a week of experience on. People need to learn what they are capable of and learn to adjust their build in order to defeat other players. The sorcerer build I created was once very narrow, unable to deal with many oppositions I faced. In 1.4, when I was never able to defeat Dragonknights, I created a Dragonknight and learned the class, so I would know how to counter it. In 1.5 when one of the only times I would ever lose was against magicka NBs, I constantly dueled the top Nightblades, having extended session with Sypher and Aetcha at that time, until I was able to beat them both. When I had trouble with sorcerers, I modified the slots on my resto bar to fit the occasion for who I was fighting and what utility skill was best needed.

I did the same on my Dragonknight and the Nightblade that I played for a week as well. I adapted and soon was able to beat easily over 95% of players that I encountered in a duel setting, and open world as well.

Players need to learn the fundamentals of the game and learn their strengths and weaknesses before crying so hard.
Now, I accept some blame perhaps because I shared my sorcerer build with a few people - I never realized that it would spread like wildfire and before I knew it nearly half of sorcerers in Cyrodiil were using a variant of my build.

Back to my point on the hatred of sorcerers though (sorry for the rant about L2P). People really need to focus on balance rather than attempting to get even with other classes. I will admit sorcerers were strong, but after defeating them on other classes, I cannot say they were godmode. They were merely strong. Bad players will see this as godmode, and now ZoS has awarded the bad players the shield breaker set. It is literally a one button shut down of a great build and quite honestly the only survival option a sorcerer has - sorcerers don't have reliable self heals, it is all about slow HoT'ing.

TL;DR - Sorry my build was so good and everyone ran it, but it was counterable and I countered it with other classes. If people had ever bothered to L2P, we would never have such a ridiculously OP set in the game. We need to focus on balance if we want this game to survive, rather than going at each others throats to get "even". "

Joy_Division

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

1 change hardened ward to create an effect that 'enhances light armor to provide the protection leather gives' so ita no longer a shield. Now all classes have the same shield options.

2 get rid of shieldbreaker. If the 5 piece bonus said 'gives 2k dps' it would be a laughing stock. With the change above it is no longer needed.

Easy, everyone is happy.

No.

The sorcerer class is designed around their class shield. This is why zenimax refuses to provide sorcs with any reliable class based form of healing for pvp. The class design basically says: Heal up slowly under your shield with rgn crits or very low casted heals when out of los.
The class is pidgeonholed into the use of this ability because it´s the only instant cast defense spell they get. If you´d change hardened ward the way you want it it would basically be the same as removing breath of life from templars and the jabs heal on dmg and then telling them they are fine.

The problem is not hardened ward but stacking it with other shields (harness for the absolute cheese against magica builds and healing ward).[/b]

Furthermore i don´t think they can remove shieldbreaker anymore. People already spent millions on this set with the right trait. The only thing i could personally see working by now is:

Option 1: Give the set a 1s cooldown on the procc. This virtually changes nothing for any user but the light attack spamming bowtard. It´s still a powerful set to combat shieldusers but no longer turns a fight completely upside down.

Option 2: Buff the dmg but let the set only attack shields not HP.

Also they need to fix it so the set only proccs if the light attack is actually absorbed by a shield - so harness magica is no longer a 26s self debuff you can´t remove when encountering someone with shieldbreaker.

I don't know why people use bold or capital letter when making a point. Doing so does not make them all of a sudden right nor does it stand for evidence when there is none.

What you are saying is your opinion and that is all. Show us where ZoS said anything of the sort. Even if they did, the game has changed so much since launch, those statements would be obsolete.

How can you say the class is designed around their shield? When the game launched, that is, when the game was closest to its intended design, health was far easier to stack and those class shields that scaled off health gave them the same sort of protection that Sorcerers have enjoyed with hardened ward since 1.6. A Templar had blazing shield and the supposed tankiness that people believe is associated with the class and breath of life. Where is the consistency in Zenimax design?

You say Zenimax has refused to give this class a reliable self heal, but that is not true at all. Before 1.6, surge was insanely reliable (at least for PVE) as we were all stacking crit anyway and a sorc could do damage and heal at the same time. I could walk into a pack of mobs in light armor and no shields and reliably heal just by AoEing. That this didnt work in PVP was due to the stupidity of the old impenetrable trait, not because the sorcerer class lack the tools. And also with the wide versatility provided by the multiple skill lines available outside classes, any "X is not part of the class design so Y" arguments are dubious because sorcerers could easily avail themselves of a very good heal.

And you are giving Zenimax far too much credit and foresight attributing their designs to coherent or consistent balance. I have sat in enough TS meeting with Zenimax's designers to realize that their customers who theorycraft this game are much more knowledgeable of it then they are. We are living with this questionable 50% debuff and artificial cost increase mechanisms in Cyrodiil precisely because they are incapable of devising a consistent damage/mitigation/healing/defensive system that works on its own merits.

You believe hardened ward on its own is balanced. That is your opinion. It's not a fact. It's not worthy of being bolded. I do not share that opinion. I play a sorcerer that has the rank of colonel in PvP and has done all the PvE content in the game. I have enough experience to know what that skill can do and what it is capable of. That means my assessment is also an opinion. Because it is just that, there is no need to put in in bold or capitalize is. Military effectiveness is measured in terms of firepower, resilience, and mobility. Because hardened ward scaled off magicka and sorcerers have bolt escape (also based off magicka), that class is alone in the ESO universe that could stack everything into a single attribute and derive benefits in all three. Stamina NBs came close because they were best suited to perma-dodge roll, but even their shenanigans could not evade multiple pursuers forever. In a 1.6 universe that pandered to glass cannon builds and placed a premium on escapability, it was a devastating combination that rightly got criticized.

None of this mean I think this set is a good idea. I am of the opinion that this armor set is a clumsy means to address this imbalance (as if stamina NBs were the only class complaining about sorcerers and their shields). But Zenimax, who was told during the 1.6 PTS process about the dangers of removing softcaps and sorcerer mechanics, has given no indication that they intend on addressing the core mechanics that have turned sorcerers into the least desirable class to play in 1.5 to the one that was accused of being OP in 1.6.

Because we're supposed to wear light armour which was nerfed in 1.6 and zos hasn't given us access to a heal anywhere near as good as vigor. We can't mitigate or heal through damage, we can't make damage miss us repeatedly, so the only thing we have left to do with the damage is run from it or absorb it. People complained about us running from it so they nerfed bolt escape several times, now people don't want us to absorb it either. What should sorcs do with damage?

No. You aren't "supposed" to wear light armor. That is a choice that you make and ought to live with the consequences of that choice. When I hop onto my healer templar, well, I'm "supposed" to wear light armor too, right? Where are my class shields that scale off magicka? Why can't I access bolt escape from a world skill? All I see is more selfish justification. You ask what are you supposed to do with damage? Exactly what you did for the past 6 months: slot a very good heal on your bar (even though you claim not to have one, what a joke), stack two shields that scale off the only resource you need to invest in, and bolt escape away whenever an opponent gains the upper hand. Not a big mystery, every halfway decent sorcerer in the game figured it out.

Carde

CP5 wrote: »

Carde wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Change hardened ward from a damage shield to an armour enhancement.
Literally magickally hardened armour.

Set the level of physical and magical resist buffs.
Set an appropriate cost.
Set an appropriate duration for that cost.

How would sorcs feel about that instead ?
You don't get permanent high armour wearing light, but you can get 'temporary' heavy armour using magicka.

This makes sorcs hard to kill still, but doenst make them invincible.
This still give Sorcs a unique class defining ability.
Sorcs cant spam the skill without seriously draining their magicka pool.
Sorcs have to worry about their health pool even with hardened amrour (rather than just lockout the healthbar).
Armour can of course be crit.
If you run out of magicka you are toast in 7 light.

So basically you want to turn it into Bound Armor?

Or... boundless storm?

Maybe he meant a replica of some OTHER spell sorc's already have?

Xeven

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Crit Surge.

Heals for 60% of damage done when you crit, but only buffs weapon damage. Power surge buffs weapon and spell damage but only heals for 40% of damage done, again only when you crit. So you need to stack crit to make this a reliable heal. This is of course possible but shouldn't be the only way for sorcs to survive.

Frags is the hardest hitting skill I have which crits for 8k after all the mitigation is calculated. Assume you stacked crit to 50% to use surge, frags would heal you for 4k 50% of the time you actually managed to land one. Take into account that sorcs only launch frags 35% of the time when it procs. OK we have other ways of doing damage but curse only crits for 6k, light/heavy attacks crit for 2-3k. Surge is only returning half of that damage as hp, and only when you crit. Players using this set can continuously hit you for 2.1k more than once per second.

I know you know all this cos I've seen you on your sorc, but I wanted to clarify why surge isn't a counter to this set. Surge + other heal is more feasible. I'm finding it's better just to tank up and wear 1x heavy armour +aegis + boundless storm though.

Not to be a jerk or anything, but how the f are you hitting for 8k AFTER mitigation? With the best spell damage setup available, tooltip damage is 10k tops. 50% of that with battle spirit is 5k BEFORE spell resistance.

You would have to be fully penetrating a 0 CP nooblette WITH a crit AND 100 CP in magic damage to do 8k. Dont give the forum blades false information.

Sorc damage has always been s***. Our burst is the only thing that keeps us competitive.

Force-Siphon

Mythk wrote: »

TL;DR - Sorry my build was so good and everyone ran it, but it was counterable and I countered it with other classes. If people had ever bothered to L2P, we would never have such a ridiculously OP set in the game. We need to focus on balance if we want this game to survive, rather than going at each others throats to get "even". "

This

FriedEggSandwich

Xeven wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Crit Surge.

Heals for 60% of damage done when you crit, but only buffs weapon damage. Power surge buffs weapon and spell damage but only heals for 40% of damage done, again only when you crit. So you need to stack crit to make this a reliable heal. This is of course possible but shouldn't be the only way for sorcs to survive.

Frags is the hardest hitting skill I have which crits for 8k after all the mitigation is calculated. Assume you stacked crit to 50% to use surge, frags would heal you for 4k 50% of the time you actually managed to land one. Take into account that sorcs only launch frags 35% of the time when it procs. OK we have other ways of doing damage but curse only crits for 6k, light/heavy attacks crit for 2-3k. Surge is only returning half of that damage as hp, and only when you crit. Players using this set can continuously hit you for 2.1k more than once per second.

I know you know all this cos I've seen you on your sorc, but I wanted to clarify why surge isn't a counter to this set. Surge + other heal is more feasible. I'm finding it's better just to tank up and wear 1x heavy armour +aegis + boundless storm though.

Not to be a jerk or anything, but how the f are you hitting for 8k AFTER mitigation? With the best spell damage setup available, tooltip damage is 10k tops. 50% of that with battle spirit is 5k BEFORE spell resistance.

You would have to be fully penetrating a 0 CP nooblette WITH a crit AND 100 CP in magic damage to do 8k. Dont give the forum blades false information.

Sorc damage has always been s***. Our burst is the only thing that keeps us competitive.

The 8k was a crit and I was going by CLS, it's the highest I've seen it crit for. I only have 250cp.

Edit: I have cp in elfborn

Stikato

.

FriedEggSandwich

Joy_Division wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

1 change hardened ward to create an effect that 'enhances light armor to provide the protection leather gives' so ita no longer a shield. Now all classes have the same shield options.

2 get rid of shieldbreaker. If the 5 piece bonus said 'gives 2k dps' it would be a laughing stock. With the change above it is no longer needed.

Easy, everyone is happy.

No.

The sorcerer class is designed around their class shield. This is why zenimax refuses to provide sorcs with any reliable class based form of healing for pvp. The class design basically says: Heal up slowly under your shield with rgn crits or very low casted heals when out of los.
The class is pidgeonholed into the use of this ability because it´s the only instant cast defense spell they get. If you´d change hardened ward the way you want it it would basically be the same as removing breath of life from templars and the jabs heal on dmg and then telling them they are fine.

The problem is not hardened ward but stacking it with other shields (harness for the absolute cheese against magica builds and healing ward).[/b]

Furthermore i don´t think they can remove shieldbreaker anymore. People already spent millions on this set with the right trait. The only thing i could personally see working by now is:

Option 1: Give the set a 1s cooldown on the procc. This virtually changes nothing for any user but the light attack spamming bowtard. It´s still a powerful set to combat shieldusers but no longer turns a fight completely upside down.

Option 2: Buff the dmg but let the set only attack shields not HP.

Also they need to fix it so the set only proccs if the light attack is actually absorbed by a shield - so harness magica is no longer a 26s self debuff you can´t remove when encountering someone with shieldbreaker.

I don't know why people use bold or capital letter when making a point. Doing so does not make them all of a sudden right nor does it stand for evidence when there is none.

What you are saying is your opinion and that is all. Show us where ZoS said anything of the sort. Even if they did, the game has changed so much since launch, those statements would be obsolete.

How can you say the class is designed around their shield? When the game launched, that is, when the game was closest to its intended design, health was far easier to stack and those class shields that scaled off health gave them the same sort of protection that Sorcerers have enjoyed with hardened ward since 1.6. A Templar had blazing shield and the supposed tankiness that people believe is associated with the class and breath of life. Where is the consistency in Zenimax design?

You say Zenimax has refused to give this class a reliable self heal, but that is not true at all. Before 1.6, surge was insanely reliable (at least for PVE) as we were all stacking crit anyway and a sorc could do damage and heal at the same time. I could walk into a pack of mobs in light armor and no shields and reliably heal just by AoEing. That this didnt work in PVP was due to the stupidity of the old impenetrable trait, not because the sorcerer class lack the tools. And also with the wide versatility provided by the multiple skill lines available outside classes, any "X is not part of the class design so Y" arguments are dubious because sorcerers could easily avail themselves of a very good heal.

And you are giving Zenimax far too much credit and foresight attributing their designs to coherent or consistent balance. I have sat in enough TS meeting with Zenimax's designers to realize that their customers who theorycraft this game are much more knowledgeable of it then they are. We are living with this questionable 50% debuff and artificial cost increase mechanisms in Cyrodiil precisely because they are incapable of devising a consistent damage/mitigation/healing/defensive system that works on its own merits.

You believe hardened ward on its own is balanced. That is your opinion. It's not a fact. It's not worthy of being bolded. I do not share that opinion. I play a sorcerer that has the rank of colonel in PvP and has done all the PvE content in the game. I have enough experience to know what that skill can do and what it is capable of. That means my assessment is also an opinion. Because it is just that, there is no need to put in in bold or capitalize is. Military effectiveness is measured in terms of firepower, resilience, and mobility. Because hardened ward scaled off magicka and sorcerers have bolt escape (also based off magicka), that class is alone in the ESO universe that could stack everything into a single attribute and derive benefits in all three. Stamina NBs came close because they were best suited to perma-dodge roll, but even their shenanigans could not evade multiple pursuers forever. In a 1.6 universe that pandered to glass cannon builds and placed a premium on escapability, it was a devastating combination that rightly got criticized.

None of this mean I think this set is a good idea. I am of the opinion that this armor set is a clumsy means to address this imbalance (as if stamina NBs were the only class complaining about sorcerers and their shields). But Zenimax, who was told during the 1.6 PTS process about the dangers of removing softcaps and sorcerer mechanics, has given no indication that they intend on addressing the core mechanics that have turned sorcerers into the least desirable class to play in 1.5 to the one that was accused of being OP in 1.6.

Because we're supposed to wear light armour which was nerfed in 1.6 and zos hasn't given us access to a heal anywhere near as good as vigor. We can't mitigate or heal through damage, we can't make damage miss us repeatedly, so the only thing we have left to do with the damage is run from it or absorb it. People complained about us running from it so they nerfed bolt escape several times, now people don't want us to absorb it either. What should sorcs do with damage?

No. You aren't "supposed" to wear light armor. That is a choice that you make and ought to live with the consequences of that choice. When I hop onto my healer templar, well, I'm "supposed" to wear light armor too, right? Where are my class shields that scale off magicka? Why can't I access bolt escape from a world skill? All I see is more selfish justification. You ask what are you supposed to do with damage? Exactly what you did for the past 6 months: slot a very good heal on your bar (even though you claim not to have one, what a joke), stack two shields that scale off the only resource you need to invest in, and bolt escape away whenever an opponent gains the upper hand. Not a big mystery, every halfway decent sorcerer in the game figured it out.

I choose to use light armour because the role I like to play is caster dps. The recovery and penetration boons from light armour are too good to miss out on. I do deal with the consequences, I carry at least 2 heals, an armour buff and a shiled (ward). I recently started wearing 1 piece of heavy armour but I can't wear any more without sacrificing set bonuses. I spec cp into Tumbling and Block Expert. I'm still pretty squishy. "We're supposed to wear light armour" was badly phrased I admit but wearing any less than 5 pieces and you might as well just go stam sorc or sorc tank imo.

Edit: I get the impression you think I'm whining, I love playing sorc. I was responding to your earlier comment and trying to explain why sorcs feel the need to use their class shield; because we struggle to mitigate without it.

Master_Kas

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Crit Surge.

Heals for 60% of damage done when you crit, but only buffs weapon damage. Power surge buffs weapon and spell damage but only heals for 40% of damage done, again only when you crit. So you need to stack crit to make this a reliable heal. This is of course possible but shouldn't be the only way for sorcs to survive.

Frags is the hardest hitting skill I have which crits for 8k after all the mitigation is calculated. Assume you stacked crit to 50% to use surge, frags would heal you for 4k 50% of the time you actually managed to land one. Take into account that sorcs only launch frags 35% of the time when it procs. OK we have other ways of doing damage but curse only crits for 6k, light/heavy attacks crit for 2-3k. Surge is only returning half of that damage as hp, and only when you crit. Players using this set can continuously hit you for 2.1k more than once per second.

I know you know all this cos I've seen you on your sorc, but I wanted to clarify why surge isn't a counter to this set. Surge + other heal is more feasible. I'm finding it's better just to tank up and wear 1x heavy armour +aegis + boundless storm though.

I'm thinking power surge + quick siphon on off bar, then spam that crushing shock and frags. Need to test this

Erock25

Xeven wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Crit Surge.

Heals for 60% of damage done when you crit, but only buffs weapon damage. Power surge buffs weapon and spell damage but only heals for 40% of damage done, again only when you crit. So you need to stack crit to make this a reliable heal. This is of course possible but shouldn't be the only way for sorcs to survive.

Frags is the hardest hitting skill I have which crits for 8k after all the mitigation is calculated. Assume you stacked crit to 50% to use surge, frags would heal you for 4k 50% of the time you actually managed to land one. Take into account that sorcs only launch frags 35% of the time when it procs. OK we have other ways of doing damage but curse only crits for 6k, light/heavy attacks crit for 2-3k. Surge is only returning half of that damage as hp, and only when you crit. Players using this set can continuously hit you for 2.1k more than once per second.

I know you know all this cos I've seen you on your sorc, but I wanted to clarify why surge isn't a counter to this set. Surge + other heal is more feasible. I'm finding it's better just to tank up and wear 1x heavy armour +aegis + boundless storm though.

Not to be a jerk or anything, but how the f are you hitting for 8k AFTER mitigation? With the best spell damage setup available, tooltip damage is 10k tops. 50% of that with battle spirit is 5k BEFORE spell resistance.

You would have to be fully penetrating a 0 CP nooblette WITH a crit AND 100 CP in magic damage to do 8k. Dont give the forum blades false information.

Sorc damage has always been s***. Our burst is the only thing that keeps us competitive.

@Xeven I'm a sorc wearing 7/7 heavy armor and keep Thundering Presence up constantly and I was consistently being crit for 10k frags last night from one Sorc in particular. I have at least 30 points in Hardy too IIRC. The sad thing is, I immediately assume this guy found the new exploit instead of thinking that he reached these numbers legit.

killingspreeb16_ESO

Xeven wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Crit Surge.

Heals for 60% of damage done when you crit, but only buffs weapon damage. Power surge buffs weapon and spell damage but only heals for 40% of damage done, again only when you crit. So you need to stack crit to make this a reliable heal. This is of course possible but shouldn't be the only way for sorcs to survive.

Frags is the hardest hitting skill I have which crits for 8k after all the mitigation is calculated. Assume you stacked crit to 50% to use surge, frags would heal you for 4k 50% of the time you actually managed to land one. Take into account that sorcs only launch frags 35% of the time when it procs. OK we have other ways of doing damage but curse only crits for 6k, light/heavy attacks crit for 2-3k. Surge is only returning half of that damage as hp, and only when you crit. Players using this set can continuously hit you for 2.1k more than once per second.

I know you know all this cos I've seen you on your sorc, but I wanted to clarify why surge isn't a counter to this set. Surge + other heal is more feasible. I'm finding it's better just to tank up and wear 1x heavy armour +aegis + boundless storm though.

Not to be a jerk or anything, but how the f are you hitting for 8k AFTER mitigation? With the best spell damage setup available, tooltip damage is 10k tops. 50% of that with battle spirit is 5k BEFORE spell resistance.

You would have to be fully penetrating a 0 CP nooblette WITH a crit AND 100 CP in magic damage to do 8k. Dont give the forum blades false information.

Sorc damage has always been s***. Our burst is the only thing that keeps us competitive.

those number are true,yesterday i got hit by frag for 8.700k velocius curse 5k and mage's wrath(?)in the execute phase for another 5k,those number are not the norm for every sorc but it's possible to hit like that.

BigTone

Erock25 wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Crit Surge.

Heals for 60% of damage done when you crit, but only buffs weapon damage. Power surge buffs weapon and spell damage but only heals for 40% of damage done, again only when you crit. So you need to stack crit to make this a reliable heal. This is of course possible but shouldn't be the only way for sorcs to survive.

Frags is the hardest hitting skill I have which crits for 8k after all the mitigation is calculated. Assume you stacked crit to 50% to use surge, frags would heal you for 4k 50% of the time you actually managed to land one. Take into account that sorcs only launch frags 35% of the time when it procs. OK we have other ways of doing damage but curse only crits for 6k, light/heavy attacks crit for 2-3k. Surge is only returning half of that damage as hp, and only when you crit. Players using this set can continuously hit you for 2.1k more than once per second.

I know you know all this cos I've seen you on your sorc, but I wanted to clarify why surge isn't a counter to this set. Surge + other heal is more feasible. I'm finding it's better just to tank up and wear 1x heavy armour +aegis + boundless storm though.

Not to be a jerk or anything, but how the f are you hitting for 8k AFTER mitigation? With the best spell damage setup available, tooltip damage is 10k tops. 50% of that with battle spirit is 5k BEFORE spell resistance.

You would have to be fully penetrating a 0 CP nooblette WITH a crit AND 100 CP in magic damage to do 8k. Dont give the forum blades false information.

Sorc damage has always been s***. Our burst is the only thing that keeps us competitive.

@Xeven I'm a sorc wearing 7/7 heavy armor and keep Thundering Presence up constantly and I was consistently being crit for 10k frags last night from one Sorc in particular. I have at least 30 points in Hardy too IIRC. The sad thing is, I immediately assume this guy found the new exploit instead of thinking that he reached these numbers legit.

I was hit with a 10k frag as well, but this is not an exploit. It was from someone I know has a lot of CPs and magicka. I have hit for 18k frags before the update so someone hitting for 10k is legit.

Erock25

BigTone wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Crit Surge.

Heals for 60% of damage done when you crit, but only buffs weapon damage. Power surge buffs weapon and spell damage but only heals for 40% of damage done, again only when you crit. So you need to stack crit to make this a reliable heal. This is of course possible but shouldn't be the only way for sorcs to survive.

Frags is the hardest hitting skill I have which crits for 8k after all the mitigation is calculated. Assume you stacked crit to 50% to use surge, frags would heal you for 4k 50% of the time you actually managed to land one. Take into account that sorcs only launch frags 35% of the time when it procs. OK we have other ways of doing damage but curse only crits for 6k, light/heavy attacks crit for 2-3k. Surge is only returning half of that damage as hp, and only when you crit. Players using this set can continuously hit you for 2.1k more than once per second.

I know you know all this cos I've seen you on your sorc, but I wanted to clarify why surge isn't a counter to this set. Surge + other heal is more feasible. I'm finding it's better just to tank up and wear 1x heavy armour +aegis + boundless storm though.

Not to be a jerk or anything, but how the f are you hitting for 8k AFTER mitigation? With the best spell damage setup available, tooltip damage is 10k tops. 50% of that with battle spirit is 5k BEFORE spell resistance.

You would have to be fully penetrating a 0 CP nooblette WITH a crit AND 100 CP in magic damage to do 8k. Dont give the forum blades false information.

Sorc damage has always been s***. Our burst is the only thing that keeps us competitive.

@Xeven I'm a sorc wearing 7/7 heavy armor and keep Thundering Presence up constantly and I was consistently being crit for 10k frags last night from one Sorc in particular. I have at least 30 points in Hardy too IIRC. The sad thing is, I immediately assume this guy found the new exploit instead of thinking that he reached these numbers legit.

I was hit with a 10k frag as well, but this is not an exploit. It was from someone I know has a lot of CPs and magicka. I have hit for 18k frags before the update so someone hitting for 10k is legit.

Yeah I took a few 20k frag hits before the update myself, but that was in light armor. I'm well over spell resist cap now. Because of ZOS inability to make an exploit free game it is more likely than not that someone found 'the next overload exploit' or next 'double mundus exploit' and even if they didn't. it is a damn shame that because ZOS sucks, I have to consider these options.

Lucky28

Because shield breaker is annoying. Came up against this many times has not killed me once, all it does is tell me 'alright that's the dude i need to kill' so i go on ahead and do that. this set is worse than mark for any Medium build who'd dare to use it. still, it just shouldn't exist.

Darnathian

Xeven wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

Seriously since this patch came out all they have done is complain about shield breaker, Just use another method to avoid damage? With the new target system pets must be amazing + Slot a proper heal....

If you dare say I dont wanna use pets... I dont wanna use sap essence but its the only AOE I got.

And if you want to focus on shields atleast use your head.

Slot a heal and dont build for really big shields focus more on smaller but more casts.
(Someone I know changed stuff around and its great for him
Smaller shield means less time in lethal zone if someone using shield breaker shows up)

Play Sorc then. Show us how. You can't, you're just spewing BS.

None of that works.

Make LA = to MA mitigation. Give us Vigor morph. Now that works.

I could play magicka NB without cloak and preform better than you, Hell I Have already proven that to enough people
You on the other hand act like a fly without wings if you cant use your class damage shield.

And you have to realize if you use shield breaker and fight a fellow stam build, your basically fighting without a 5 piece bonus.

Seriously sounds like you have a L2P issue.

Phew...Guess that rumor that all magicka sorcs play the same build is true.

Youre EXACTLY right, except for the L2P jab.

Magicka Sorcs are flys without wings without shields and that is exactly why we all play similar builds.

We must use LA, and we must use shields.That is all we have.

If you have a valid suggestion that is not stamina or heavy armor, Im all ears.

Easy. No shield stacking.

CP5

Darnathian wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

Seriously since this patch came out all they have done is complain about shield breaker, Just use another method to avoid damage? With the new target system pets must be amazing + Slot a proper heal....

If you dare say I dont wanna use pets... I dont wanna use sap essence but its the only AOE I got.

And if you want to focus on shields atleast use your head.

Slot a heal and dont build for really big shields focus more on smaller but more casts.
(Someone I know changed stuff around and its great for him
Smaller shield means less time in lethal zone if someone using shield breaker shows up)

Play Sorc then. Show us how. You can't, you're just spewing BS.

None of that works.

Make LA = to MA mitigation. Give us Vigor morph. Now that works.

I could play magicka NB without cloak and preform better than you, Hell I Have already proven that to enough people
You on the other hand act like a fly without wings if you cant use your class damage shield.

And you have to realize if you use shield breaker and fight a fellow stam build, your basically fighting without a 5 piece bonus.

Seriously sounds like you have a L2P issue.

Phew...Guess that rumor that all magicka sorcs play the same build is true.

Youre EXACTLY right, except for the L2P jab.

Magicka Sorcs are flys without wings without shields and that is exactly why we all play similar builds.

We must use LA, and we must use shields.That is all we have.

If you have a valid suggestion that is not stamina or heavy armor, Im all ears.

Easy. No shield stacking.

The set doesn't give a hoot if you have a shield or three, even if you are using annulment against physical light attacks. Unless you mean "No shields - " at all, only way to work around the set. There is no play and counter play, just is enemy wearing this set? If yes then don't use shields, or have allies nearby use shields, or have no passives/armors that provide shields. Thing is none of these you can change in combat, its a very poorly made one dimensional set.

Tonturri

Darnathian wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

Seriously since this patch came out all they have done is complain about shield breaker, Just use another method to avoid damage? With the new target system pets must be amazing + Slot a proper heal....

If you dare say I dont wanna use pets... I dont wanna use sap essence but its the only AOE I got.

And if you want to focus on shields atleast use your head.

Slot a heal and dont build for really big shields focus more on smaller but more casts.
(Someone I know changed stuff around and its great for him
Smaller shield means less time in lethal zone if someone using shield breaker shows up)

Play Sorc then. Show us how. You can't, you're just spewing BS.

None of that works.

Make LA = to MA mitigation. Give us Vigor morph. Now that works.

I could play magicka NB without cloak and preform better than you, Hell I Have already proven that to enough people
You on the other hand act like a fly without wings if you cant use your class damage shield.

And you have to realize if you use shield breaker and fight a fellow stam build, your basically fighting without a 5 piece bonus.

Seriously sounds like you have a L2P issue.

Phew...Guess that rumor that all magicka sorcs play the same build is true.

Youre EXACTLY right, except for the L2P jab.

Magicka Sorcs are flys without wings without shields and that is exactly why we all play similar builds.

We must use LA, and we must use shields.That is all we have.

If you have a valid suggestion that is not stamina or heavy armor, Im all ears.

Easy. No shield stacking.

http://www.esohead.com/calculator/skills#1.mMkzevk9MyG0mii8NNgI8hMhR8AIOD8hmOd8NUky8jKEL8AIPN8heaf8AISW8hesE8NUky8jKEL8e7rraqk6LaqT8v7CLanS6ranW8H7JLzfQ6LbHm8J7GLziY6LziZ8K7Jrzuu6rzuj6Lzun8O7aLkP8Y7VLfJN847zzxLCe8zf7zzNbo8zu7zzHfYE6zHfZd8zG7zzHQ3F8zI7zzJIoX6zJIkL8zN7zzJZcY8zA7zzKpUN8zL7zzK4EX

I gave it a shot.

Wish the Twilight Matriarch heal started at 75%, and the pet didn't lag behind while I was moving around.

Anyway, this'd give you around 25k health in Cyro (website won't let me assign VR rank attribute points), 25k magicka. At least, with my crappy vr14 set and setup. If QUick Siponh procs off all three strikes, this could be nice (954 health per Force Pulse before whatever else happens). I also heard at some point that Destructive Reach procced Elemental Drain every tick, maybe it does the same for Quick Siphon as well? Rapid Regen would do a total of 6450.

Might actually try this.

capnbinky

Araxleon wrote: »

...
If you dare say I dont wanna use pets... I dont wanna use sap essence but its the only AOE I got.

And if you want to focus on shields...

Slot a heal and dont build for really big shields focus more on smaller but more casts.
(Someone I know changed stuff around and its great for him
Smaller shield means less time in lethal zone if someone using shield breaker shows up)

That's nice for your friend. So we should all follow a cookie-cutter approach, yes? Personally, rather than a bunch of same-y min/max builds I prefer to see ZOS foster diversity of play-style. Much more fun.

Galalin

I think im going to buy this set just to run around in for laughs when im bored. Trust me as a nerfed to hell DK... you will get used to it and adapt.

DK SCRUB OUT

Makkir

Rook_Master wrote: »

Yep, and I'm totally unashamed to say that I get a sense of satisfaction seeing sorcs get trashed by Shieldbreaker builds.

There are plenty of respectable stam sorcs like FENGRUSH that didn't abuse mechanics and exploits for months asfter 1.6 dropped.

The vast majority of sorcs can just go get boned by Shieldbreaker and I sincerely dont' care.

Keep that attitude up and you won't have anyone to play with any more.

Makkir

Araxleon wrote: »

I could play magicka NB without cloak and preform better than you, Hell I Have already proven that to enough people
You on the other hand act like a fly without wings if you cant use your class damage shield.

And you have to realize if you use shield breaker and fight a fellow stam build, your basically fighting without a 5 piece bonus.

Seriously sounds like you have a L2P issue.

Phew...Guess that rumor that all magicka sorcs play the same build is true.

Please don't throw Xeven in the same category as the rest of us sorcs. Please.

HeroOfNone

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

The annoying pet builds I've seen use shield still but use that lightning ball version of streak and 2 pets with a twilight and exploding scamp. The sorc would then proceed to bolt around and let the projectiles and rushes hit their pets or the balls, wasting enemy attacks while the pets , curse, and other things wore down the enemy. After which it was about waiting for low enough health to insta cast fragments and dawn breaker.

Seems it will still work with out shields but might need a resto on back bar

Ball of lightening only absorbs spell projectiles so wouldn't be any good at absorbing the light attacks from a bow. I recently got attacked by a sorc with 2 pets in cropsford. I just streaked through his pets, tab-targeted him and he was dead in seconds and his pets went with him. Pets are least useful 1v1 imo, it's so easy to kite them, in a group they can cause more annoyance. They're still not worth slotting cos they take 2 skill slots each. When you only have 10 skill slots who wants to waste 4 on 2 pets?

Def not a sorc expert but I have had incidents where invasion, crit charge, and other items have hit the ball lightning and not the sorc. This could have been a bug that got fixed in recent patches (damned if I see any sorc using ball lightning now) but it seemed like it used to do more than spells.

I'm also spruced though that folks don't use pets more given the tight sewer corridors of IC sewers. In an open field tab targeting is going to make things a pain but in the sewers those guys will stay up on folks, explode, etc. With what should be a lot more effect.

Anyhow just sharing one alternative I've seen that seemed moderately more interesting than the standard streak, curse, frags, runes, dawn breaker builds

CP5

HeroOfNone wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

The annoying pet builds I've seen use shield still but use that lightning ball version of streak and 2 pets with a twilight and exploding scamp. The sorc would then proceed to bolt around and let the projectiles and rushes hit their pets or the balls, wasting enemy attacks while the pets , curse, and other things wore down the enemy. After which it was about waiting for low enough health to insta cast fragments and dawn breaker.

Seems it will still work with out shields but might need a resto on back bar

Ball of lightening only absorbs spell projectiles so wouldn't be any good at absorbing the light attacks from a bow. I recently got attacked by a sorc with 2 pets in cropsford. I just streaked through his pets, tab-targeted him and he was dead in seconds and his pets went with him. Pets are least useful 1v1 imo, it's so easy to kite them, in a group they can cause more annoyance. They're still not worth slotting cos they take 2 skill slots each. When you only have 10 skill slots who wants to waste 4 on 2 pets?

Def not a sorc expert but I have had incidents where invasion, crit charge, and other items have hit the ball lightning and not the sorc. This could have been a bug that got fixed in recent patches (damned if I see any sorc using ball lightning now) but it seemed like it used to do more than spells.

I'm also spruced though that folks don't use pets more given the tight sewer corridors of IC sewers. In an open field tab targeting is going to make things a pain but in the sewers those guys will stay up on folks, explode, etc. With what should be a lot more effect.

Anyhow just sharing one alternative I've seen that seemed moderately more interesting than the standard streak, curse, frags, runes, dawn breaker builds

Pets are inept, suicidal, easily killed, take up many slots, and are generally not worth it. This coming from someone who likes using their clannfear.

HeroOfNone

CP5 wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

The annoying pet builds I've seen use shield still but use that lightning ball version of streak and 2 pets with a twilight and exploding scamp. The sorc would then proceed to bolt around and let the projectiles and rushes hit their pets or the balls, wasting enemy attacks while the pets , curse, and other things wore down the enemy. After which it was about waiting for low enough health to insta cast fragments and dawn breaker.

Seems it will still work with out shields but might need a resto on back bar

Ball of lightening only absorbs spell projectiles so wouldn't be any good at absorbing the light attacks from a bow. I recently got attacked by a sorc with 2 pets in cropsford. I just streaked through his pets, tab-targeted him and he was dead in seconds and his pets went with him. Pets are least useful 1v1 imo, it's so easy to kite them, in a group they can cause more annoyance. They're still not worth slotting cos they take 2 skill slots each. When you only have 10 skill slots who wants to waste 4 on 2 pets?

Def not a sorc expert but I have had incidents where invasion, crit charge, and other items have hit the ball lightning and not the sorc. This could have been a bug that got fixed in recent patches (damned if I see any sorc using ball lightning now) but it seemed like it used to do more than spells.

I'm also spruced though that folks don't use pets more given the tight sewer corridors of IC sewers. In an open field tab targeting is going to make things a pain but in the sewers those guys will stay up on folks, explode, etc. With what should be a lot more effect.

Anyhow just sharing one alternative I've seen that seemed moderately more interesting than the standard streak, curse, frags, runes, dawn breaker builds

Pets are inept, suicidal, easily killed, take up many slots, and are generally not worth it. This coming from someone who likes using their clannfear.

So it's like playing with a pug but who doesn't get lost?

CP5

HeroOfNone wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

The annoying pet builds I've seen use shield still but use that lightning ball version of streak and 2 pets with a twilight and exploding scamp. The sorc would then proceed to bolt around and let the projectiles and rushes hit their pets or the balls, wasting enemy attacks while the pets , curse, and other things wore down the enemy. After which it was about waiting for low enough health to insta cast fragments and dawn breaker.

Seems it will still work with out shields but might need a resto on back bar

Ball of lightening only absorbs spell projectiles so wouldn't be any good at absorbing the light attacks from a bow. I recently got attacked by a sorc with 2 pets in cropsford. I just streaked through his pets, tab-targeted him and he was dead in seconds and his pets went with him. Pets are least useful 1v1 imo, it's so easy to kite them, in a group they can cause more annoyance. They're still not worth slotting cos they take 2 skill slots each. When you only have 10 skill slots who wants to waste 4 on 2 pets?

Def not a sorc expert but I have had incidents where invasion, crit charge, and other items have hit the ball lightning and not the sorc. This could have been a bug that got fixed in recent patches (damned if I see any sorc using ball lightning now) but it seemed like it used to do more than spells.

I'm also spruced though that folks don't use pets more given the tight sewer corridors of IC sewers. In an open field tab targeting is going to make things a pain but in the sewers those guys will stay up on folks, explode, etc. With what should be a lot more effect.

Anyhow just sharing one alternative I've seen that seemed moderately more interesting than the standard streak, curse, frags, runes, dawn breaker builds

Pets are inept, suicidal, easily killed, take up many slots, and are generally not worth it. This coming from someone who likes using their clannfear.

So it's like playing with a pug but who doesn't get lost?

They do get lost. Somehow. Unless you tell your pet to only follow you (in which case they won't do anything else). I've watched my twilight fly off into combat a few times only to instantly vaporize from some of the stray shots given off in the fight.

PainfulFAFA

I'm a stam sorc and I've yet to see SHIELD BREAKER on my death recap

CP5 wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

The annoying pet builds I've seen use shield still but use that lightning ball version of streak and 2 pets with a twilight and exploding scamp. The sorc would then proceed to bolt around and let the projectiles and rushes hit their pets or the balls, wasting enemy attacks while the pets , curse, and other things wore down the enemy. After which it was about waiting for low enough health to insta cast fragments and dawn breaker.

Seems it will still work with out shields but might need a resto on back bar

Ball of lightening only absorbs spell projectiles so wouldn't be any good at absorbing the light attacks from a bow. I recently got attacked by a sorc with 2 pets in cropsford. I just streaked through his pets, tab-targeted him and he was dead in seconds and his pets went with him. Pets are least useful 1v1 imo, it's so easy to kite them, in a group they can cause more annoyance. They're still not worth slotting cos they take 2 skill slots each. When you only have 10 skill slots who wants to waste 4 on 2 pets?

Def not a sorc expert but I have had incidents where invasion, crit charge, and other items have hit the ball lightning and not the sorc. This could have been a bug that got fixed in recent patches (damned if I see any sorc using ball lightning now) but it seemed like it used to do more than spells.

I'm also spruced though that folks don't use pets more given the tight sewer corridors of IC sewers. In an open field tab targeting is going to make things a pain but in the sewers those guys will stay up on folks, explode, etc. With what should be a lot more effect.

Anyhow just sharing one alternative I've seen that seemed moderately more interesting than the standard streak, curse, frags, runes, dawn breaker builds

Pets are inept, suicidal, easily killed, take up many slots, and are generally not worth it. This coming from someone who likes using their clannfear.

So it's like playing with a pug but who doesn't get lost?

They do get lost. Somehow. Unless you tell your pet to only follow you (in which case they won't do anything else). I've watched my twilight fly off into combat a few times only to instantly vaporize from some of the stray shots given off in the fight.

Theres a nice little keybind specifically for calling back your pets and targeting enemies with pets. People should start looking into that and test them...

CP5

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

I'm a stam sorc and I've yet to see SHIELD BREAKER on my death recap

CP5 wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

The annoying pet builds I've seen use shield still but use that lightning ball version of streak and 2 pets with a twilight and exploding scamp. The sorc would then proceed to bolt around and let the projectiles and rushes hit their pets or the balls, wasting enemy attacks while the pets , curse, and other things wore down the enemy. After which it was about waiting for low enough health to insta cast fragments and dawn breaker.

Seems it will still work with out shields but might need a resto on back bar

Ball of lightening only absorbs spell projectiles so wouldn't be any good at absorbing the light attacks from a bow. I recently got attacked by a sorc with 2 pets in cropsford. I just streaked through his pets, tab-targeted him and he was dead in seconds and his pets went with him. Pets are least useful 1v1 imo, it's so easy to kite them, in a group they can cause more annoyance. They're still not worth slotting cos they take 2 skill slots each. When you only have 10 skill slots who wants to waste 4 on 2 pets?

Def not a sorc expert but I have had incidents where invasion, crit charge, and other items have hit the ball lightning and not the sorc. This could have been a bug that got fixed in recent patches (damned if I see any sorc using ball lightning now) but it seemed like it used to do more than spells.

I'm also spruced though that folks don't use pets more given the tight sewer corridors of IC sewers. In an open field tab targeting is going to make things a pain but in the sewers those guys will stay up on folks, explode, etc. With what should be a lot more effect.

Anyhow just sharing one alternative I've seen that seemed moderately more interesting than the standard streak, curse, frags, runes, dawn breaker builds

Pets are inept, suicidal, easily killed, take up many slots, and are generally not worth it. This coming from someone who likes using their clannfear.

So it's like playing with a pug but who doesn't get lost?

They do get lost. Somehow. Unless you tell your pet to only follow you (in which case they won't do anything else). I've watched my twilight fly off into combat a few times only to instantly vaporize from some of the stray shots given off in the fight.

Theres a nice little keybind specifically for calling back your pets and targeting enemies with pets. People should start looking into that and test them...

And I use it frequently, but it doesn't help that the pets get lost and unless they teleport to you they take a while to move anywhere, and console players can't do that.

Dyride

I summon the sorcerer from Youtube, @Teargrants @Teargrants @Teargrants.

Demonstrate the "balance" of the medium armor magicka sorc!

Epic trollbuild inc.

Teargrants

Dyride wrote: »

I summon the sorcerer from Youtube, @Teargrants @Teargrants @Teargrants.

Demonstrate the "balance" of the medium armor magicka sorc!

Epic trollbuild inc.

I am summoned!

So like just a FYI, I have an easier time killing anyone using shields w/ 5 Shield Breaker spamming light resto atks w/ 1.6k spell dmg, compared to my light armor destro/resto 3k spell dmg build. And when I say Shield Breaker, I'm still in my magicka build even though none of the set bonuses or the armor type itself supports it.

ToRelax

Teargrants wrote: »

Dyride wrote: »

I summon the sorcerer from Youtube, @Teargrants @Teargrants @Teargrants.

Demonstrate the "balance" of the medium armor magicka sorc!

Epic trollbuild inc.

I am summoned!

So like just a FYI, I have an easier time killing anyone using shields w/ 5 Shield Breaker spamming light resto atks w/ 1.6k spell dmg, compared to my light armor destro/resto 3k spell dmg build. And when I say Shield Breaker, I'm still in my magicka build even though none of the set bonuses or the armor type itself supports it.

Yep, did this on PTS. Not the most effective vs stam builds though.