Why haven't they nerfed NBs yet?

Dracane

Xeniph wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Really... sorcs are the last class that should complain about NBs.

You have a skill called Streak and another called Lightning Form, which you can use to roll over any NB trying to cloak near you.


Keep in mind that cloak does not heal you and it does not shield you either.

I wonder if anyone has even tried using the Flare skill yet... or any other type of AoE.

It's always easier to call for nerfs isn't it?

Nah. In the time between using the spell and the projectile arriving, the Nightblade has already traveled 20 meters and already prepares for his bomb attack.

They are too fast. As soon as they cloak, they are gone without any chance to predict their way. You can only guess and will fire the projectile into nowhere. It's pointless in my opinion.
I'm sure you can catch some very very nooby Nightblade with that, but not average Nightblade and especially no good Nightblades.

@ZoS Please give some kind of Aura effect while Flare is equipped. Some barely noticeable shining around stealthed targets, almost not noticeable. So that there is a chance to arm with this thing.
EDIT: No, not while it is equipped. Only when you click the skill and the Aim-Modus appears, to avoid abuse.

Now this just proves you have not tested it on the pts. Because it's quite effective. I watched a Sorc from EU own magicka NB's for about an hour using it. Funny as hell.

Edit- And your remark about Proxy debt is outdated aswell. It's utter crap in single target combat in this update. And this opinion is from using it on my magicka nb and having it used against me on all my other classes/specs. Between the 8 second delay and the pitiful damage, I won't be using it outside of a group vs group situation.

I wasn't talking about Proxy. Please highlight the sentence, where I was talking about this. I've never talked about this ability ever before.

And @DDuke Yea don't worry, the shine effect to Flare should be very very unnoticeable. We don't want cookie cutting Just some help.

Thalmor-Nordmaster

This thread brought to mind a point about sewers. Methane gas. DK's with fire and fire based abilities should have a proc chance to blow the entire sewer system to smithereens from a methane explosion.

Saint_JiubB14_ESO

DDuke wrote: »

It's always easier to call for nerfs isn't it?

Says the guy defending a NERF to detec pots. Lol

DDuke

Saint_JiubB14_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

It's always easier to call for nerfs isn't it?

Says the guy defending a NERF to detec pots. Lol

Well done, taking things out of context.

If you paid attention, you might notice how I listed several counters to stealth , which why I then commented how it's obviously easiER to call for nerfs.


Now, please list the counters currently available for a melee NB vs a detection potion.

*crickets*

Well, now there is one: you can wait the 15 seconds until detection potion duration runs out & then cloak. Vice versa, you can wait until a good moment before you pop your detection potion (e.g. NB is low on health/stamina) to make sure NB doesn't get away.

Chrlynsch

Silly Idea... but....

When nightblades cloak they enter the shadowrelm while in this relm they can't see the living.... aoes can bring you out of shadows, detection pots can briefly see through to the shadowrelm. The one morph that allows crit from shadows will allow you to see the living 15m ( give or take) around you.

Yes I have a nightblade, and think this would be very interesting.

Xeniph

Dracane wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Really... sorcs are the last class that should complain about NBs.

You have a skill called Streak and another called Lightning Form, which you can use to roll over any NB trying to cloak near you.


Keep in mind that cloak does not heal you and it does not shield you either.

I wonder if anyone has even tried using the Flare skill yet... or any other type of AoE.

It's always easier to call for nerfs isn't it?

Nah. In the time between using the spell and the projectile arriving, the Nightblade has already traveled 20 meters and already prepares for his bomb attack.

They are too fast. As soon as they cloak, they are gone without any chance to predict their way. You can only guess and will fire the projectile into nowhere. It's pointless in my opinion.
I'm sure you can catch some very very nooby Nightblade with that, but not average Nightblade and especially no good Nightblades.

@ZoS Please give some kind of Aura effect while Flare is equipped. Some barely noticeable shining around stealthed targets, almost not noticeable. So that there is a chance to arm with this thing.
EDIT: No, not while it is equipped. Only when you click the skill and the Aim-Modus appears, to avoid abuse.

Now this just proves you have not tested it on the pts. Because it's quite effective. I watched a Sorc from EU own magicka NB's for about an hour using it. Funny as hell.

Edit- And your remark about Proxy debt is outdated aswell. It's utter crap in single target combat in this update. And this opinion is from using it on my magicka nb and having it used against me on all my other classes/specs. Between the 8 second delay and the pitiful damage, I won't be using it outside of a group vs group situation.

I wasn't talking about Proxy. Please highlight the sentence, where I was talking about this. I've never talked about this ability ever before.

And @DDuke Yea don't worry, the shine effect to Flare should be very very unnoticeable. We don't want cookie cutting Just some help.

You said magicka NB's will "Bomb" you from stealth. Which I took to mean the combo Proxy+Soul Tether.

So my mistake if you didn't mean that, but you should try to clarify what you meant otherwise.

Draehl

My standard disclaimer in every one of these threads:

Not everyone plays a NB burst build. Both stamina and magicka assassin builds can be incredibly effective. I don't disagree that some situations can get pretty ridiculous with the burst they can pull off only to disappear and do it all over again. That said, please keep in mind when calling for nerfs (especially to our primary defense in shadow cloak) that it also affects builds that are not OP out of control.

MaxwellC

coolermh wrote: »

Detect pot...Cloak does nothing....

The fact I need to use a detect pot to spot someone who has just cloaked in front of me is absurd. Cloak should only work when you're a significant distance away not 2 inches. I've seen NBs who decided to run away by cloaking right in front of me.

eNumbra

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

coolermh wrote: »

Detect pot...Cloak does nothing....

Cloak should only work when you're a significant distance away not 2 inches. I've seen NBs who decided to run away by cloaking right in front of me.

Yeah, it's an invisibility spell; by this same logic, Wall of Fire shouldn't work if you're standing in a puddle.

Xeniph

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

coolermh wrote: »

Detect pot...Cloak does nothing....

The fact I need to use a detect pot to spot someone who has just cloaked in front of me is absurd. Cloak should only work when you're a significant distance away not 2 inches. I've seen NBs who decided to run away by cloaking right in front of me.

And why is it absurd? A personal belief?

Cause I don't see Healing ones wounds instantly, using any king of Damage shield or shooting fireballs out a stick anymore less absurd. In fact, an argument could be made that "Cloaking" right in front of you could be some form of illusion, or maybe he threw some powder in your face.

What I am actually hearing from people is that it bothers them that they have to counter it, or that it's too hard to counter. However Cloak/Stealth in this game has about triple the amount of counters of any game I have played in 19 years of MMOing.

People are complaining because they perceive cloak as an advantage.

Darnathian

Master_Kas wrote: »

Isbilen wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Forum Blades OP, devs are unable to hit them w/ nerfs through their force miss.

Sounds very similar to Forum sorcs

The difference is though, that Nightblades are leaps ahead of Sorcerers

Not really, see all sorcs who appeared on this thread about NB's?

They want nerf cloak which is so easy to counter. Which doesn't even work all the time.

I know c I like the forums more than pvp now. So funny. Sorcs agreeing for nerfs for all the other classes. No magicka regen for nb's, good idea. No stamina regen for tanks, even better Zos. No magicka regen for shield stacking sorcs or penalty for spamming, this is bs Zos! Don't listen to them. Sorcs are weak right now!

Thalmor-Nordmaster

NB's are this updates Golden child. Next major update it will be DK's again, then after that Sorcs. Templars never because they already had Jeebus Beam. Its a cycle Just go along to get along. Roll one of each class max it out level wise and go with the flow.

Dracane

Xeniph wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Really... sorcs are the last class that should complain about NBs.

You have a skill called Streak and another called Lightning Form, which you can use to roll over any NB trying to cloak near you.


Keep in mind that cloak does not heal you and it does not shield you either.

I wonder if anyone has even tried using the Flare skill yet... or any other type of AoE.

It's always easier to call for nerfs isn't it?

Nah. In the time between using the spell and the projectile arriving, the Nightblade has already traveled 20 meters and already prepares for his bomb attack.

They are too fast. As soon as they cloak, they are gone without any chance to predict their way. You can only guess and will fire the projectile into nowhere. It's pointless in my opinion.
I'm sure you can catch some very very nooby Nightblade with that, but not average Nightblade and especially no good Nightblades.

@ZoS Please give some kind of Aura effect while Flare is equipped. Some barely noticeable shining around stealthed targets, almost not noticeable. So that there is a chance to arm with this thing.
EDIT: No, not while it is equipped. Only when you click the skill and the Aim-Modus appears, to avoid abuse.

Now this just proves you have not tested it on the pts. Because it's quite effective. I watched a Sorc from EU own magicka NB's for about an hour using it. Funny as hell.

Edit- And your remark about Proxy debt is outdated aswell. It's utter crap in single target combat in this update. And this opinion is from using it on my magicka nb and having it used against me on all my other classes/specs. Between the 8 second delay and the pitiful damage, I won't be using it outside of a group vs group situation.

I wasn't talking about Proxy. Please highlight the sentence, where I was talking about this. I've never talked about this ability ever before.

And @DDuke Yea don't worry, the shine effect to Flare should be very very unnoticeable. We don't want cookie cutting Just some help.

You said magicka NB's will "Bomb" you from stealth. Which I took to mean the combo Proxy+Soul Tether.

So my mistake if you didn't mean that, but you should try to clarify what you meant otherwise.

No, I didn't say anything about Magicka Nightblades read again
With bomb I simply mean burst. I admit, bomb sounds like proxy and I also admit, that I knew people might misunderstand this.

But I was only talking about ambush and this average nightblade stuff.

Domander

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

coolermh wrote: »

Detect pot...Cloak does nothing....

The fact I need to use a detect pot to spot someone who has just cloaked in front of me is absurd. Cloak should only work when you're a significant distance away not 2 inches. I've seen NBs who decided to run away by cloaking right in front of me.

The "fact" is that you don't have to use a detect pot, you could use aoe instead.

MaxwellC

Xeniph wrote: »

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

coolermh wrote: »

Detect pot...Cloak does nothing....

The fact I need to use a detect pot to spot someone who has just cloaked in front of me is absurd. Cloak should only work when you're a significant distance away not 2 inches. I've seen NBs who decided to run away by cloaking right in front of me.

And why is it absurd? A personal belief?

Cause I don't see Healing ones wounds instantly, using any king of Damage shield or shooting fireballs out a stick anymore less absurd. In fact, an argument could be made that "Cloaking" right in front of you could be some form of illusion, or maybe he threw some powder in your face.

What I am actually hearing from people is that it bothers them that they have to counter it, or that it's too hard to counter. However Cloak/Stealth in this game has about triple the amount of counters of any game I have played in 19 years of MMOing.

People are complaining because they perceive cloak as an advantage.

It's absurd because the simple fact that you get a detection radius in cyrodiil hence when you're in stealth mode if you go near a person you become visible. If you're able to cloak in front of a person especially when you're in stabbing distance then that defeats the purpose.

The detection pot shouldn't have to be used for the simple fact if you're cloaking in front of me you should be seen until you get a decent distance away; all it does is encourage non risk fights since you can fight someone and let's say you're losing, BOOM pop your cloak and hide.

MaxwellC

Domander wrote: »

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

coolermh wrote: »

Detect pot...Cloak does nothing....

The fact I need to use a detect pot to spot someone who has just cloaked in front of me is absurd. Cloak should only work when you're a significant distance away not 2 inches. I've seen NBs who decided to run away by cloaking right in front of me.

The "fact" is that you don't have to use a detect pot, you could use aoe instead.

I use AoEs all the time and that isn't a "100%" key in order to catch someone. I usually catch them unless they're out of my range which that's how it should be. This doesn't change the fact that I have to use a detect pot to find someone who just cloaked right near me.

MisterBigglesworth

I'd to see a specific "order of operations" to solve some of the problems I see with Sorc shield-stacking.

Healing Ward should sit on top of Hardened Ward, which should in turn sit on top of Harness Magicka, regardless of the order they were cast in.

In other words, if a Sorc has all 3 of these shields up at once and I hit him, it should always deplete Healing Ward first, thus reducing the effectiveness of the heal.

If he has only Harness+Hardened active, then my magic attacks should always deplete Hardened first, thereby not feeding them magic back until after Hardened is removed.

DDuke

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

I use AoEs all the time and that isn't a "100%" key in order to catch someone. I usually catch them unless they're out of my range which that's how it should be. This doesn't change the fact that I have to use a detect pot to find someone who just cloaked right near me.

Wait, what?

You are contradicting yourself quite heavily there, just saying.

GreenSoup2HoT

DDuke wrote: »

Bfish22090 wrote: »

Best pve dps

Nope.

Bfish22090 wrote: »

and unkillable on the pts with the cloak fixes atm

Nope.

Try slotting AoE and/or using detection potions at the right time...

Yeah, it's almost mandatory to use some kind of aoe, im a just use caltrops.

Teargrants

@DDuke Please, Streak and Lightning Form as a counter to cloak is silly. Blink has been nerfed hardcore, it cannot be spammed to keep a NB detected. Lightning Form is only gonna catch unskilled players that try to cloak and stand right on top of you.

I'm sure I needn't remind you; you can spam Double Take in Cloak without breaking stealth, add Concealed Weapon on that bar and you will move like the Flash while being in stealth.

Cloak - Double Take - Cloak - Cloak - Double Take - GG

DDuke

Teargrants wrote: »

@DDuke Please, Streak and Lightning Form as a counter to cloak is silly. Blink has been nerfed hardcore, it cannot be spammed to keep a NB detected. Lightning Form is only gonna catch unskilled players that try to cloak and stand right on top of you.

I'm sure I needn't remind you; you can spam Double Take in Cloak without breaking stealth, add Concealed Weapon on that bar and you will move like the Flash while being in stealth.

Cloak - Double Take - Cloak - Cloak - Double Take - GG

those "unskilled players that try to cloak and stand right on top of you" are the NBs that want to deal dmg.

Contrary to popular belief, most of NB dmg does not come from Strife or Crushing Shock (though I'm sure a build like that would be interesting...), so it will be in the best interest of these NBs to stay on top of you to actually deal dmg.

Now, if you bolt escape away from that NB & he (kind of) counters that by using cloak, that's another story (and perfectly ok in my books), but you really can't complain about not being able to catch escaping NBs since that is ridiculously easy. Especially for a sorc.

Now, to put emphasis on the "use AoE" aspect I didn't even mention the most obvious skill you sorcerers have for countering nightblades: Velocious Curse


If you are having trouble with cloaking NB as a sorcerer, you are doing something seriously wrong.

If you are having trouble with a cloaking NB as a DK or Templar, then I can kind of understand that (though the tools are still there for you to counter them, you just have to use those tools).

Xael

Why nerf Nightblades? I am running around on PTS with RML and I have yet to have a NB get away from or wreck me from stealth.

MisterBigglesworth

DDuke wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

@DDuke Please, Streak and Lightning Form as a counter to cloak is silly. Blink has been nerfed hardcore, it cannot be spammed to keep a NB detected. Lightning Form is only gonna catch unskilled players that try to cloak and stand right on top of you.

I'm sure I needn't remind you; you can spam Double Take in Cloak without breaking stealth, add Concealed Weapon on that bar and you will move like the Flash while being in stealth.

Cloak - Double Take - Cloak - Cloak - Double Take - GG

those "unskilled players that try to cloak and stand right on top of you" are the NBs that want to deal dmg.

Contrary to popular belief, most of NB dmg does not come from Strife or Crushing Shock (though I'm sure a build like that would be interesting

Yeah I guess he just wants more Snipe spamming NBs

k2blader

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

I'd to see a specific "order of operations" to solve some of the problems I see with Sorc shield-stacking.

Healing Ward should sit on top of Hardened Ward, which should in turn sit on top of Harness Magicka, regardless of the order they were cast in.

In other words, if a Sorc has all 3 of these shields up at once and I hit him, it should always deplete Healing Ward first, thus reducing the effectiveness of the heal.

If he has only Harness+Hardened active, then my magic attacks should always deplete Hardened first, thereby not feeding them magic back until after Hardened is removed.

Why in the world should it work like that other than to benefit you and folks with similar ridiculous notions?

Farorin

Det pots got nerfed, yes, but that doesn't mean they won't work as only the duration got nerfed. Also, there is still revealing flare pr whatever it is called which works a treat against NBs, as well as any AOE attack will knock them out of cloak.

TheBull

They did. They cut our passive stam regen in half.

Master_Kas

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

coolermh wrote: »

Detect pot...Cloak does nothing....

The fact I need to use a detect pot to spot someone who has just cloaked in front of me is absurd. Cloak should only work when you're a significant distance away not 2 inches. I've seen NBs who decided to run away by cloaking right in front of me.

And why is it absurd? A personal belief?

Cause I don't see Healing ones wounds instantly, using any king of Damage shield or shooting fireballs out a stick anymore less absurd. In fact, an argument could be made that "Cloaking" right in front of you could be some form of illusion, or maybe he threw some powder in your face.

What I am actually hearing from people is that it bothers them that they have to counter it, or that it's too hard to counter. However Cloak/Stealth in this game has about triple the amount of counters of any game I have played in 19 years of MMOing.

People are complaining because they perceive cloak as an advantage.

It's absurd because the simple fact that you get a detection radius in cyrodiil hence when you're in stealth mode if you go near a person you become visible. If you're able to cloak in front of a person especially when you're in stabbing distance then that defeats the purpose.

The detection pot shouldn't have to be used for the simple fact if you're cloaking in front of me you should be seen until you get a decent distance away; all it does is encourage non risk fights since you can fight someone and let's say you're losing, BOOM pop your cloak and hide.

If cloak shouldn't work in melee distance then give us a CLASS damage shields which work both vs phys and magic dmg without having to slot harness/resto staff for healing ward. Just like all other classes get, or another way of absorbing damage.

Otherwise your suggestion of how cloak should be working fails.

CP5

TheBull wrote: »

They did. They cut our passive stam regen in half.

At the heavy cost of getting heavy magicka regen.

Zanen

NB got nerfed a lot more than most people realize in this update.

NB benefitted from nirn more than any other class because they don't have a class shield and shields don't benefit from mitigation.

Dodge roll, mobility and penetration nerfs also hit NBs particularly hard because they synergized well with the class.

The overall damage nerf also devalues their burst potential, and their weak healing options are weaker than ever, especially with the increased cost on rally.

Changes to blocking and siphoning attacks have also hurt them in tanking and healing roles, where DK and Templar are even farther ahead than they were before.

Overall I think class balance is likely to be better next update than it is currently if they can work the bugs out well enough to make a fine pass. I still think they need to find a way to make sorc effective in PVE without being OP in PVP. I think nirn was a poorly implemented attempt at that, and there are some adjustments in that direction in this update (particularly in gear) but I can't tell if they've struck the right balance yet.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Zanen wrote: »

NB got nerfed a lot more than most people realize in this update.

NB benefitted from nirn more than any other class because they don't have a class shield and shields don't benefit from mitigation.

Dodge roll, mobility and penetration nerfs also hit NBs particularly hard because they synergized well with the class.

The overall damage nerf also devalues their burst potential, and their weak healing options are weaker than ever, especially with the increased cost on rally.

Changes to blocking and siphoning attacks have also hurt them in tanking and healing roles, where DK and Templar are even farther ahead than they were before.

Overall I think class balance is likely to be better next update than it is currently if they can work the bugs out well enough to make a fine pass. I still think they need to find a way to make sorc effective in PVE without being OP in PVP. I think nirn was a poorly implemented attempt at that, and there are some adjustments in that direction in this update (particularly in gear) but I can't tell if they've struck the right balance yet.

But there new "i win button" cloak un does all that.