The way these Tel Var Stones are going to work sounds terrible...

Cernow

When designing a MMO with PvP, the PvP can take many forms. It doesn't have to be all about ganking, griefing and harassing. But sadly all too often this is the case because it is the lazy design option and because it appeals to the most vocal part of the community, the min/maxxers.

This looting system in IC is playing completely into the hands of the griefers and the gankers. It makes already powerful min/maxxed characters even more powerful. For the average player the end result will likely be a miserable gaming experience. I've seen enough of this nonsense in other MMOs to know it's likely to be a gankers paradise. If you don't have a ganking class and build, or don't want to run around in a huge pack for safety, it's probably not worth the bother.

They can't even balance classes and builds properly for Cyrodiil, so I've little confidence balance inside IC will be any better. Add the disparity between characters caused by the VR and CP systems and you have a nasty recipe for fail.

Sausage

Its so funny, IC is the evil now, we have played 1+ year with non VR Battle Leveling and now everyone jumps on IC. Im sure Zen is aware of IC gears + high CP combination and doesnt let it become too strong. We have had gank/harassment groups before, considering how borind Cyrodil is, it gives a nice twist to it, nothing else. I'd be very stupid if we could always ride to battle without worry of being ganked.

Alphashado

I appreciate and understand all the concern. But why don't we just wait till the PTS launches and check it out for ourselves before we pull the fire alarm?

I remember when the patch notes for 1.6 hit. People were freaking out about various things like DPS nerfs and changes to set bonus's. All that hysteria seems a little foolish now.

I suggest we hold off on the panic button until we actually see for ourselves what its like.

Merlin13KAGL

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

People do understand that gankers with a massive cache of stones can also be killed by larger groups or other gankers, right?

Gameplay will have to change and evolve.

If the expectation is to be able to to everything the same as it always has been, even though new content, physical layout, and mechanics have been involved is absurd.

But there is nothing absurd in players wanting a gameplay that doesnt support harassing other players.

@MaximusDargus I understand your frustration. I do.

My question is, would you feel the same way if the person was in plain sight? Would you feel the same if it was an NPC that killed you with the same end result?

Regarding stealth, there have been, and will be counters to this type of thing, just as there are counters to almost every skill/mechanic in the game.

They'll have to be learned by some and implemented by all to prevent this sort of thing. They've flat out indicated in the release that it's probably not going to be very solo friendly. They've equally indicated there will be safe/neutral zones within IC.

I think there are places within that will match risk with reward. There will be others that will provide less of each.

I do not believe, aside from initial access, there will be absolute requirement to be in danger zones during the entirety of one's stay in IC.

There will be ways to play well and stay safe, just as there are in Cyrodiil right now. Beyond that, it's ultimately a PvP based expansion, so each will have to make the determination if it's something they can work around or not.

azoriangaming

I consider myself to be in a top pvp guild and this great news for me but I can see this backfiring on zos as this isn't going to be great for all.

it's going to be a shift from ap farming to stone farming.

technohic

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

Why not make it a toggle? If you turn it on you can loot others and be looted, if you turn it off you cannot loot others and cannot be looted.

That way everyone can be happy.

If you argue that you want to be able to loot people who are not interested in that kind of risk vs reward gameplay then it just show that you are the kind of gamer that get your kick from annoying other players....

It's not meant for everyone to be happy. Its meant to be something to fight over.

technohic

Rook_Master wrote: »

This is gonna be a freaking ganker's paradise.

Why bother grinding mobs for stones when you can sit stealthed near the entrance for players to gank and take their stones?

For one you have the wrong idea in thinking about grinding mobs. You are going to be in a sometimes contested PVP zone. Read tanquils post a page or 2 back on how that works. This is NOT something to PVE for. That just happens along side of the PVP or in between.

End of the day, this should not be where PVEers go to earn gear. It is made as content for the people accustomed to these dangers already in Cyrodiil just like Craglorn was for PVEERS. You had 2 FREE zones as a PVEer now let PVPers have one.


As for the "elites" picking on weak players, I suggest you add your 2 cents in the thread about disabled champion point campaigns.

Pallmor

Cernow wrote: »

This looting system in IC is playing completely into the hands of the griefers and the gankers. It makes already powerful min/maxxed characters even more powerful. For the average player the end result will likely be a miserable gaming experience. I've seen enough of this nonsense in other MMOs to know it's likely to be a gankers paradise. If you don't have a ganking class and build, or don't want to run around in a huge pack for safety, it's probably not worth the bother.

BBSooner

Looting the stones out of players coddled to VR14 through the poorly challenged leveling experience will likely bring me much joy - and much despair to the forums.

Pangnirtung

I think that this might be the one feature that ruins the DLC experience for players like myself.

Why ZOS feels compelled to introduce aspect to the game I don't know.

For all the PVP'ers that proclaim if you don't like it then don't go to the PVP zones, how about ZOS change the rules in the PVP zones so that it plays like the original Ultima Online and you LOSE all gear to the gankers? By some of the PVPers logic on here why not? Why not even LOSE experience or Champion points if this is such a hard core area? Make your losses as real as mine.

technohic

Pangnirtung wrote: »

I think that this might be the one feature that ruins the DLC experience for players like myself.

Why ZOS feels compelled to introduce aspect to the game I don't know.

For all the PVP'ers that proclaim if you don't like it then don't go to the PVP zones, how about ZOS change the rules in the PVP zones so that it plays like the original Ultima Online and you LOSE all gear to the gankers? By some of the PVPers logic on here why not? Why not even LOSE experience or Champion points if this is such a hard core area? Make your losses as real as mine.

Because it isn't really that hard core? My god I can almost see your face all red with eyes teared up just reading that. Its just a game and this part just isn't for you. It will be alright there little guy. You'll be ok.

Etaniel

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Kloud wrote: »

Wizzo91 wrote: »

I think the system sound awesome and interesting. Finally a real consequence for deaths in PVP. Battles and fights will get more tense and exiting.

I hate how people want everything handed to them, without working for it...

+1

-1 for supporting false statement.

Being able to rob someone from his earned TV stones is exactly getting everything without working for it. PVPers want to get TV stones without working for them, just with ganking.
PVErs will work for stones hardly doing actual game content.

Completing a PvE quest isn't hard work. Completing it and taking your stones to a secure location by holding off enemy gankers is hard work. And if you can't manage to do that then I guess you don't deserve your reward.

The gankers that will steal your stones will also have to deal with enemy ganks you know, everyone is presented to the same challenge.

It's not as if all PvPers have a truce and only attack PvErs, so stop posing as victims and labelling every PvPer as evil villains with no souls please.

BBSooner

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Kloud wrote: »

Wizzo91 wrote: »

I think the system sound awesome and interesting. Finally a real consequence for deaths in PVP. Battles and fights will get more tense and exiting.

I hate how people want everything handed to them, without working for it...

+1

-1 for supporting false statement.

Being able to rob someone from his earned TV stones is exactly getting everything without working for it. PVPers want to get TV stones without working for them, just with ganking.
PVErs will work for stones hardly doing actual game content.

I would contend that neither questing nor ganking is difficult.

MissBizz

@phermitgb I completely agree with you. I think the system is absolutely excellent for players who are more inclined to PvP regularly, and are competitive. I haven't given up hope yet, and as a complete PvE players I will give it a shot and see how it goes. I think you hit the nail on the head with explaining how players who only PvE are more willing to try and practive PvP (and enjoy it) when there is no huge loss, but are not so inclined to give it a try when there is so much risk.

As it was mentioned previously, CURRENTLY the plan is for you to lose all your Tel Var stones when killed by a player. They did mention this could change according to PTS feedback. I'm going to try it out and see. I'm not against the system entirely, I think it's a great idea to add some more risk/reward to PvP and all, but maybe limiting the amount of stones looted would be a better middle ground.

omegatay_ESO

Want proof pure pvp mmos don't work and that pvpers NEED the casuals and the carebears. Go take a look at Archeage forums. Pvpers, hardcores, elitists, or whatever there referred to basically made it hell for the casuals and carebears alike. Well... Now the game is pvp hardcore with no casuals or carebears at all. The game is in disarray, the pvpers are blaming Trion, and the real problem? Pvper gankers and elitists that could not and would not work and play nice with casuals and carebears. There economy is a wreck, and there going to merge servers.

To the pvper elitists, gankists, and not to offend, but jerks.. YOU NEED the casuals and the carebears. If for anything to keep the community, and economy healthy. Go pvp have a blast, but dont be a jerk.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO

This single idea will make the dlc cost them money instead of earning money.

It will make even more of the playerbase avoid pvp instead of attracting people to pvp and then they will be left behind which will cause them to stop playing causing a loss of revenue.

Dlc would be a great thing but this single element destroys anything else in the expansion. Without it we would get a more fun dynamic pvp environment with many new players joining pvp. Instead it will drive players away from the game and harm the remaining community.

ThyIronFist

Wow, the PvE tears are real... If you don't want to PvP, then don't! Leave Cyrodiil and don't come back. Simple! If your casual heart can't handle Cyrodiil then go back to PvE and keep doing your dungeons and trials.

ZOS has been focusing on nothing but PvE for the past year and a half and now you PvErs cry when there's going to be a PvP update? First PvP update in like 17 months and all of the sudden we're griefers and elitists, lol.

I, for one, welcome this system. First PvP update ever and I'm looking forward to it, will be interesting to see what will happen. Just hoping ZOS wont mess it up.

RinaldoGandolphi

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

People do understand that gankers with a massive cache of stones can also be killed by larger groups or other gankers, right?

Gameplay will have to change and evolve.

If the expectation is to be able to to everything the same as it always has been, even though new content, physical layout, and mechanics have been involved is absurd.

Yup it all but ensures folks won't roam around in there with any less 12-15 people....thats pretty much a gimmie.

the solo lone ganker types will be the ones run over by the pain trains....this just encourages people to zerg...people zerg now because they don't want to play horse simulator....they will zerg even more now because they don't want to actually lose something of value (these stones)

I don't think the IPC will necessarily be a gnakers paradise as much as a zerger's paradise...sure folks will gank, but it will be zergs that steamroll and take all the stones....it won't be the small scale pvp folks want.

the Small Scale pvp we wanted was supposed to be part of the justice system, but they never released it.

technohic

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

People do understand that gankers with a massive cache of stones can also be killed by larger groups or other gankers, right?

Gameplay will have to change and evolve.

If the expectation is to be able to to everything the same as it always has been, even though new content, physical layout, and mechanics have been involved is absurd.

Yup it all but ensures folks won't roam around in there with any less 12-15 people....thats pretty much a gimmie.

the solo lone ganker types will be the ones run over by the pain trains....this just encourages people to zerg...people zerg now because they don't want to play horse simulator....they will zerg even more now because they don't want to actually lose something of value (these stones)

I don't think the IPC will necessarily be a gnakers paradise as much as a zerger's paradise...sure folks will gank, but it will be zergs that steamroll and take all the stones....it won't be the small scale pvp folks want.

the Small Scale pvp we wanted was supposed to be part of the justice system, but they never released it.

Yeah, and think on why that didn't happen. Pretty similar to what is already starting with the stones now.

Halfwitte

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Wizzo91 wrote: »

I think the system sound awesome and interesting. Finally a real consequence for deaths in PVP. Battles and fights will get more tense and exiting.

I hate how people want everything handed to them, without working for it...

Wow. handed to them without working for it?

How does spending 3 hours in dungeon farming stones is "not working for it at all".

And then tell me, how is ganking someone to kill him from hidden position in 3 seconds and stealing all his work "working" at all?

Exciting? This will encourage gankers to leech and be parasites to other peoples work. On the contrary, it will discourage hard work because why bother farming dungeons if you can just hide somewhere, dont do ANY WORK and just wait for passer by, kill him and take his stones?

Beat me to it I was thinking the same thing. I want to be challenged not frustrated. Walking out of a dungeon after completing it to be immediately killed and have my stones taken leans more towards the frustrating side of things. If everyone who likes this idea wants to be frustrated we should do deaths like old school Ultima Online where they could take everything on your person including your gear after they killed you or when you died in FFXI PVE and force you to lose xp and level down so none of your gear would be wearable or skills usable. Even better Blizzard Diablo Hard mode when you die your toon is deleted, wouldn't all of these options give everyone a more real life war feel with actual consequences and rewards, definitely sounds more exiting this way.

newtinmpls

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

Why not make it a toggle? If you turn it on you can loot others and be looted, if you turn it off you cannot loot others and cannot be looted.

That way everyone can be happy.

If you argue that you want to be able to loot people who are not interested in that kind of risk vs reward gameplay then it just show that you are the kind of gamer that get your kick from annoying other players....

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

That most certainly would take the fun out of it. Also, this heavily benefits pve-ers because they wont kill many players so they would choose to turn the looting off.

The way you have written this suggests that PvE'ers should be included just to bet targets for PvP ganking.

If you meant something else, please clarify.

technohic

It seems there is a toggle. It is called "That is a PvP zone. Do not go there if you do not want to PvP."


That said; I am not completely blind to the real problem that there has been a content drought in the game for a long time now. For PvPers it has been even longer but it doesn't change the fact that when we finally see it, PvEers are seeing that as the only new content in months as their only option, and want to have it be for them when it was never meant to be.

Probably should have had this come out at the same time as one of the PvE zones that have been teased as I think it would have reduced how polarizing this is if PvEers had their own thing to do for new gear and new VR levels. Lord knows however; that we all would then be waiting longer for it because they would push IC back to coincide rather than be able to rush the PvE zone that is next.

Minorem

Corrupted_Soul wrote: »

So much negativity from people :'D you haven't even tried it and you're already complaining. Omg. It's no wonder ZOS take barely anything people say on here seriously, it's 99% complaints. When did gamers become so entitled?

The people who love the game are generally too busy enjoying themselves to come online. At least a few people here are commenting in bad faith (they no longer play the game, have no plans to play it again, and thus are basically just here to troll). Misery loves company.

Also, I think there's a good case to be made the MMOs encourage unhappy lifestyles amongst hardcore participants (a disproportionate amount of whom frequent forums). Sleep deprivation, poor nutrition, etc. At least a few must be going through withdrawal while they're on here, away from the dopamine trigger we call ESO. I'm only here for the moment because I'm on vacation, and I'm jonesing to get my fix.

Finally, how many people actually want to read the "I love this game!!!!!" threads? Cheerleading sessions are boring, especially without eye candy. Most of us are coming from the premise that the game is awesome; we're here to provide critiques to make it better.

So, Tel Var Stones .... I fear change. I doubt this will end well. However, from a lore perspective, I love the way the Imperial City is shaping up. If people form gangs to gank people in the streets who didn't belong to their faction, that's straight out of ancient Rome before the fall. I love it. From a gameplay perspective, we'll see. I assume they'll implement a cap at some point, so players don't lose ALL their stones when/if they die.

Merlin13KAGL

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

People do understand that gankers with a massive cache of stones can also be killed by larger groups or other gankers, right?

Gameplay will have to change and evolve.

If the expectation is to be able to to everything the same as it always has been, even though new content, physical layout, and mechanics have been involved is absurd.

Yup it all but ensures folks won't roam around in there with any less 12-15 people....thats pretty much a gimmie.

the solo lone ganker types will be the ones run over by the pain trains....this just encourages people to zerg...people zerg now because they don't want to play horse simulator....they will zerg even more now because they don't want to actually lose something of value (these stones)

I don't think the IPC will necessarily be a gnakers paradise as much as a zerger's paradise...sure folks will gank, but it will be zergs that steamroll and take all the stones....it won't be the small scale pvp folks want.

the Small Scale pvp we wanted was supposed to be part of the justice system, but they never released it.

@RinaldoGandolphi , agreed, small scale will be less viable in many scenarios, but I'm hopeful there will be stealth ways to bypass the stealthers, as well.

I'm not Eminem, so I don't always like to run around with an entourage, and I suspect large groups will potentially have much to lose on both sides.

I personally intend to be contrary and scope out the solo access viability of certain things. Better to inform the group that comes with later on.

There will always be gankers, duos, zergs, and everything in between. So much depends on the layout, the number and size of routes, chokepoints, etc.

We'll have to wait and see.

I still like the idea of roaming unbeatable monsters (or at least really nasty ones) that prevent campers from staying put too long...force everybody to watch their backs, and not just from PvPers.

Rinmaethodain

ThyIronFist wrote: »

Wow, the PvE tears are real... If you don't want to PvP, then don't! Leave Cyrodiil and don't come back. Simple! If your casual heart can't handle Cyrodiil then go back to PvE and keep doing your dungeons and trials.

ZOS has been focusing on nothing but PvE for the past year and a half and now you PvErs cry when there's going to be a PvP update? First PvP update in like 17 months and all of the sudden we're griefers and elitists, lol.

I, for one, welcome this system. First PvP update ever and I'm looking forward to it, will be interesting to see what will happen. Just hoping ZOS wont mess it up.

OK but then we should take with us all Cyriodiil and IC dungeons, all cyriodiil and IC quest and all cyriodiil and IC crafting station.
Because PVP is not about explorind dungeons, doing quests and making gear. PVP is about killing, right? If PVPers are so much for PVPing and just killing other players, they should ask ZOS to remove all PVE content from Cyriodiil. Everything will be fine then

Alphashado

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

People do understand that gankers with a massive cache of stones can also be killed by larger groups or other gankers, right?

Gameplay will have to change and evolve.

If the expectation is to be able to to everything the same as it always has been, even though new content, physical layout, and mechanics have been involved is absurd.

Yup it all but ensures folks won't roam around in there with any less 12-15 people....thats pretty much a gimmie.

the solo lone ganker types will be the ones run over by the pain trains....this just encourages people to zerg...people zerg now because they don't want to play horse simulator....they will zerg even more now because they don't want to actually lose something of value (these stones)

I don't think the IPC will necessarily be a gnakers paradise as much as a zerger's paradise...sure folks will gank, but it will be zergs that steamroll and take all the stones....it won't be the small scale pvp folks want.

the Small Scale pvp we wanted was supposed to be part of the justice system, but they never released it.

This is actually one of my concerns that occurred to me right away. I honestly don't mind the idea of lootable tokens as long as you can bank them when you get to town. What bothers me is that I think you are correct about zergs. In my imagination right now, I can see Zerg balls everywhere inside IC. So it will end up not much different than it is right now: Biggest, strongest zerg for the win.

I can see this being attractive not only for safety, but imagine the number of tokens people in a monster zerg will get when they wipe a smaller zerg. If each person gets to loot any person they do damage to or by healing anyone that damaged other opponants, people in zergs are going to be able to loot a crapload of stones.

This is just pure speculation. I think we need to slow down the mass hysteria train until we get into PTS and see for ourselves, but I do believe that Zerg fests are a valid concern. We will see.

technohic

Quoting the below that goes over how DAOC had it done although I am betting people still will not read it. Wish more players would explain Darkness Falls that experienced it because I am pretty sure, this is pretty much going to just be the ESO version.

Tankqull wrote: »

lifefrombelowb14_ESO wrote: »

I think the only thing that worries me about it is if it just gives it to you or if it leaves a body to be looted. If it leaves a body thats a potential drain on server resources and I don't know if anyone here was on azura's yesterday, but the server seems like it can barely handle what we throw at it now let alone all these sudden loot drops when huge groups run into each other.

there will be no huge groups 99% of the time. any one who has played DAoC does now this "dungeon type" pretty well as it is a copy of "darkness falls". the only time you will see bigger groups is when the IC access switched to another realm i mean alliance, while the former "owner" balls up in the entrence area of the new "owner" trying to with stand them as long as possible, while doing so the former owner has allready placed his stones in his bank while the new owner had no time to gain any stones so beside some *** you will not see any stones being looted between larger player numbers.
even the 6 "home keeps" can be disscussed to grant access as each alliance has 3 keeps(granting access to their scrolls) + 2 keeps (within the emperor circle) plus another two keeps on the out outside in their direct proximity and depending upon wich 6 out of those 7 keeps actually are needed the access can become quite exclusive (e.g. if you have to have 2 of the 3 outer keeps(brindle, dragenclaw, drakelowe) wich are currently quite often uncontested to increase their value)

the only time stone will be actually lootable is by solo/micro group attackers who have logged their chars within it (wich with the current implemention of pvp logging is highly unliky) to attack players involved in pve - grabbing their stones.

which leads to another issue no one knows how many stone you can eventually lose upon death 1? all? max 50%? pure speculation currently...

Zershar_Vemod

This'll definitely blow up in their faces, and damage control will ensue.

Edgemoor

technohic wrote: »

Quoting the below that goes over how DAOC had it done although I am betting people still will not read it. Wish more players would explain Darkness Falls that experienced it because I am pretty sure, this is pretty much going to just be the ESO version.

Tankqull wrote: »

lifefrombelowb14_ESO wrote: »

I think the only thing that worries me about it is if it just gives it to you or if it leaves a body to be looted. If it leaves a body thats a potential drain on server resources and I don't know if anyone here was on azura's yesterday, but the server seems like it can barely handle what we throw at it now let alone all these sudden loot drops when huge groups run into each other.

there will be no huge groups 99% of the time. any one who has played DAoC does now this "dungeon type" pretty well as it is a copy of "darkness falls". the only time you will see bigger groups is when the IC access switched to another realm i mean alliance, while the former "owner" balls up in the entrence area of the new "owner" trying to with stand them as long as possible, while doing so the former owner has allready placed his stones in his bank while the new owner had no time to gain any stones so beside some *** you will not see any stones being looted between larger player numbers.
even the 6 "home keeps" can be disscussed to grant access as each alliance has 3 keeps(granting access to their scrolls) + 2 keeps (within the emperor circle) plus another two keeps on the out outside in their direct proximity and depending upon wich 6 out of those 7 keeps actually are needed the access can become quite exclusive (e.g. if you have to have 2 of the 3 outer keeps(brindle, dragenclaw, drakelowe) wich are currently quite often uncontested to increase their value)

the only time stone will be actually lootable is by solo/micro group attackers who have logged their chars within it (wich with the current implemention of pvp logging is highly unliky) to attack players involved in pve - grabbing their stones.

which leads to another issue no one knows how many stone you can eventually lose upon death 1? all? max 50%? pure speculation currently...

Quoting darkness falls isn't helpful, because what has not been mentioned is the manner in which it was released. Was their an increase in level cap, was it the only content you got at the time to level your character in?

Looking at what was release Darkness Falls was part of a much larger expansion that gave players a variety of content to play. That is very different to what we have with IC;

Darkness Rising (DR, October 11, 2005) ( February 1, 2006 in Europe) - Introduced Champion weapons (much like epic armor), player mounts (horses), Champion Levels and subclassing (small abilities from another class), new dungeons and instanced zones for the new Champion Quests and new graphics for the game world's models (such as barns, haystacks and forts, this includes the Darkness Falls dungeon and the capital cities) which are following the design ideas presented in Mythic's new graphics for the starting cities. Darkness Rising was also the first paid expansion to Dark Age of Camelot able to be downloaded. A trailer has been created by GOA to showcase this expansion. Mythic also introduced a new island, called Agramon, which acts as a central island that connected the frontiers of the three realms. Unlike the rest of the Frontiers zones, there are no keeps and any player from any realm can open the gates that border the island.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Age_of_Camelot

Nestor

There are better ways to add risk and reward to PvP than allowing a rare and precious resource to be stolen from you if you die to another player. Unless these things drop like candy, which I doubt they will. Risk, just make it so there is armor degradation, reward, put a loot table on players that the victor can loot or a token system that can be exchanged for loot.