The way these Tel Var Stones are going to work sounds terrible...

QueenAyrenn

Sounds interesting for top-tier PvPers... but like a game-breaker for the lower levels. Maybe when it's released, the majority of people will love it, but it sure doesn't sound like that's going to be the case. It'd be nice for some more detailed information on this.

God-eater

I'm iffy about it. So wish we couldn't loot them off each other - bad memories of EQ and Diablo gank squads.... ugh.

Ysne58

I'm feeling the same way. There are other threads on this issue.

Annra

It is definitely a game breaker for me.

Wizzo91

I think the system sound awesome and interesting. Finally a real consequence for deaths in PVP. Battles and fights will get more tense and exiting.

I hate how people want everything handed to them, without working for it...

Mastery404

In my opinion they're fine. They add risk and reward to the PVP. CPs and VRs are the problem.

Enemy-of-Coldharbour

Congratulations! You have reached the Imperial City! Now turn around and go away, you're not welcome. Only elitists and griefers allowed.

technohic

Wizzo91 wrote: »

I think the system sound awesome and interesting. Finally a real consequence for deaths in PVP. Battles and fights will get more tense and exiting.

I hate how people want everything handed to them, without working for it...

I like this as well. I think people are missing that it is a PvP objective that has real risk and rewards related to PvP and are just thinking about it as a PvE currency that just happens to be lootable by other players.

I am NOT one of the elite PvPers but I sure hope the crew I run with is still around as together we are formidable. I would definitely focus more on support with that in mind.

Wizzo91

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

Congratulations! You have reached the Imperial City! Now turn around and go away, you're not welcome. Only elitists and griefers allowed.

BS argument. Just because somebody kills you and pvp and takes a reward he is a griefer? Killing is a part of war you know. Cyrodiil is trying to simulate a war if you've not noticed it yet.

tplink3r1

Wizzo91 wrote: »

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

Congratulations! You have reached the Imperial City! Now turn around and go away, you're not welcome. Only elitists and griefers allowed.

BS argument. Just because somebody kills you and pvp and takes a reward he is a griefer? Killing is a part of war you know. Cyrodiil is trying to simulate a war if you've not noticed it yet.

Don't waste your time, some people are too casual to understand that.

phermitgb

technohic wrote: »

Wizzo91 wrote: »

I think the system sound awesome and interesting. Finally a real consequence for deaths in PVP. Battles and fights will get more tense and exiting.

I hate how people want everything handed to them, without working for it...

I like this as well. I think people are missing that it is a PvP objective that has real risk and rewards related to PvP and are just thinking about it as a PvE currency that just happens to be lootable by other players.

I am NOT one of the elite PvPers but I sure hope the crew I run with is still around as together we are formidable. I would definitely focus more on support with that in mind.

see, I'm not sure you're really understanding the true worries of the counter argument. People aren't missing that it's a pvp objective - and they're CERTAINLY not missing that there is real risk and reward involved in the system. In fact, the fact that there IS real risk and reward is part of the problem.

Even Casuals recognize that there is risk and reward in PVP. We still play it - not as often, and not quite as...passionately...as dedicated pvpers do, but we do it. Because the risk (namely, disappointment, defeat and time wasted) is relatively equal to the reward (occasional gear, occasional fun, occasional victory). Because there's no *personal* material loss in current PVP (no item damage that I'm aware of, no loss of money or gear, no loss of skill or xp progress or whatnot) defeat is a relatively minor hurt - if it was a more significant hurt, people like myself, that can barely justify the expense of PVP (time and unpleasant experiences) already, will be inclined to spend even less time and effort on PVP than we already do.

remember, for casuals like myself (and I like to think that I might be *reasonably* representative of a portion of the population), the current rewards for PVP are minimal - the cost of PVP has to be roughly equally minimal, or I will happily spend my time in PVE instead where my risk vs reward is much higher in my favor.

Now, don't get me wrong - I'm not packing my pitchfork and torches yet - depending on the actual layout and structure of Imperial City (IC), the nature of so called gank squads and griefers may undergo a change that makes the possibility of loss of...whatever this new currency is called (I forgot already) - a reasonable burden. However, just imagine if, oh lets say...AP's could be stolen off your dead body in Cyrodill currently. Now, YOU may be comfortable with that level of loss vs reward, but imagine all the casuals who drop in to Cyrodill right now, and realizing that if they get caught in the midst of traveling to one place or another...POOF. all progress gone (already limited progress because Casuals don't usually get lots of solo victories in PVP to begin with) - then, again. and again...because they're a vulnerable target, and the people attacking them...LIKE vulnerable easy targets - AND they get to steal their already limited pvp rewards...

cue the dedicated griefers and trolls - and you have a time-honored recipe for "I'm outta here and never coming back."

THIS, I think, is what casual PVP people are most worried about with the current information available for IC. We're already not all that rewarded for PVP'ing in the first place - and now, IC is going to introduce a mechanic that, to our experience, encourages the ABSOLUTE WORST kind of experiences we already have in pvp - but now with greater consequence. I hope you can understand why a segment of the *potential* pvp crowd is very concerned about the current description of IC.

Now, granted, we've only heard the basics of IC - depending on layout, popularity, and how the reward and looting system actually work, it may be far more tolerable than currently imagined - but it is worrisome, and I would say justifiably so.

of course, all of this only matters if you give a damn about the presence of casuals. If you don't, if you're perfectly fine with IC being occupied ONLY by dedicated PVP'ers, then you have nothing to worry about and you can tell us all, in good conscience, to make like a tree and get outta here.

TequilaFire

Lets see how this pans out.
Too much worry got the PvP taken out of the Justice System.
Don't need a repeat of that.
Grouping up is the answer anyway.

Wizzo91

phermitgb wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Wizzo91 wrote: »

I think the system sound awesome and interesting. Finally a real consequence for deaths in PVP. Battles and fights will get more tense and exiting.

I hate how people want everything handed to them, without working for it...

I like this as well. I think people are missing that it is a PvP objective that has real risk and rewards related to PvP and are just thinking about it as a PvE currency that just happens to be lootable by other players.

I am NOT one of the elite PvPers but I sure hope the crew I run with is still around as together we are formidable. I would definitely focus more on support with that in mind.

see, I'm not sure you're really understanding the true worries of the counter argument. People aren't missing that it's a pvp objective - and they're CERTAINLY not missing that there is real risk and reward involved in the system. In fact, the fact that there IS real risk and reward is part of the problem.

Even Casuals recognize that there is risk and reward in PVP. We still play it - not as often, and not quite as...passionately...as dedicated pvpers do, but we do it. Because the risk (namely, disappointment, defeat and time wasted) is relatively equal to the reward (occasional gear, occasional fun, occasional victory). Because there's no *personal* material loss in current PVP (no item damage that I'm aware of, no loss of money or gear, no loss of skill or xp progress or whatnot) defeat is a relatively minor hurt - if it was a more significant hurt, people like myself, that can barely justify the expense of PVP (time and unpleasant experiences) already, will be inclined to spend even less time and effort on PVP than we already do.

remember, for casuals like myself (and I like to think that I might be *reasonably* representative of a portion of the population), the current rewards for PVP are minimal - the cost of PVP has to be roughly equally minimal, or I will happily spend my time in PVE instead where my risk vs reward is much higher in my favor.

Now, don't get me wrong - I'm not packing my pitchfork and torches yet - depending on the actual layout and structure of Imperial City (IC), the nature of so called gank squads and griefers may undergo a change that makes the possibility of loss of...whatever this new currency is called (I forgot already) - a reasonable burden. However, just imagine if, oh lets say...AP's could be stolen off your dead body in Cyrodill currently. Now, YOU may be comfortable with that level of loss vs reward, but imagine all the casuals who drop in to Cyrodill right now, and realizing that if they get caught in the midst of traveling to one place or another...POOF. all progress gone (already limited progress because Casuals don't usually get lots of solo victories in PVP to begin with) - then, again. and again...because they're a vulnerable target, and the people attacking them...LIKE vulnerable easy targets - AND they get to steal their already limited pvp rewards...

cue the dedicated griefers and trolls - and you have a time-honored recipe for "I'm outta here and never coming back."

THIS, I think, is what casual PVP people are most worried about with the current information available for IC. We're already not all that rewarded for PVP'ing in the first place - and now, IC is going to introduce a mechanic that, to our experience, encourages the ABSOLUTE WORST kind of experiences we already have in pvp - but now with greater consequence. I hope you can understand why a segment of the *potential* pvp crowd is very concerned about the current description of IC.

Now, granted, we've only heard the basics of IC - depending on layout, popularity, and how the reward and looting system actually work, it may be far more tolerable than currently imagined - but it is worrisome, and I would say justifiably so.

of course, all of this only matters if you give a damn about the presence of casuals. If you don't, if you're perfectly fine with IC being occupied ONLY by dedicated PVP'ers, then you have nothing to worry about and you can tell us all, in good conscience, to make like a tree and get outta here.

@phermitgb

I get your point, but I don't agree.

What is a game about? it is about winning or losing and of course the entertainment you get while reaching one of the two states.

Even if you are casual you should be able to play intelligently enough not to get killed constantly and you will get at least some currency out of your farming. You will just get less as better/well organized players of course.(note: I myself am very casual but still love competition when I'm able to play). That's how it is supposed to be.

If you are not able to survive and bank any gems or whatever the mechanic is you don't deserve the rewards you can buy with them. Just as you don't deserve the rewards for undaunted pledges, trials and everything else in the game if you are not able to complete them.

Games are about competition, winning/losing, risking, learning and getting better. Without these traits a game would not be fun.

Group up and enjoy (grouping up is the way to go here, they can show you stuff and help you with your builds if you fail miserably.)

Also remember that most people are rather casual. It is always the largest group.

pmn100b16_ESO

Sounds like quite an original idea. Please lets not ruin it by making it yet another static dungeon that you grind to get 100 tokens and buy gear. There's sure to be plenty of those coming in the future. And of course you could always just not buy IC and wait for Orsinium or whatever its called.

Ysne58

I had noticed that this PVE was group content, not solo content. It's a lot easier to find groups when you are in more than one guild.

PvP badly needs new content. For that reason alone I hope this succeeds. I'm probably not going to buy it or resub because of the pvp obstacles just getting to IC as well as the possibility of losing those "stones" every time I get ganked.

lifefrombelowb14_ESO

I think the only thing that worries me about it is if it just gives it to you or if it leaves a body to be looted. If it leaves a body thats a potential drain on server resources and I don't know if anyone here was on azura's yesterday, but the server seems like it can barely handle what we throw at it now let alone all these sudden loot drops when huge groups run into each other.

newtinmpls

Wizzo91 wrote: »

I get your point, but I don't agree.

What is a game about? it is about winning or losing and of course the entertainment you get while reaching one of the two states.

-some stuff snipped-

Games are about competition, winning/losing, risking, learning and getting better. Without these traits a game would not be fun.

I get your point but I don't agree.

I don't play an RPG to "win" I play it to explore the world, to hang with friends in a fantasy setting and to do bold and heroic and completely impossible things like spellcasting and instant travel. I play it to explore this world in particular, having loved it from when I "met" it in Morrowind.

I play an online RPG because my gaming buddies moved out of state, and Skype gaming was just not working well.

We don't "win", or "lose" we just continue to adventure, explore and interact as our characters - with the characters that each other are playing.

This is what is fun for me.

I have no desire to RPG in a war - an inherently horrible dehumanizing hostile, non-fun environment. Lets just say I've never had any desire to play a wargame, a first person shooter or any "alien invasion" or battle-heavy (or battle dependent) game.

ZoS has quite the challenge designing a system that will be some sort of "fun" for both of us.

phermitgb

Wizzo91 wrote: »

@phermitgb

I get your point, but I don't agree.

What is a game about? it is about winning or losing and of course the entertainment you get while reaching one of the two states.

Even if you are casual you should be able to play intelligently enough not to get killed constantly and you will get at least some currency out of your farming. You will just get less as better/well organized players of course.(note: I myself am very casual but still love competition when I'm able to play). That's how it is supposed to be.

If you are not able to survive and bank any gems or whatever the mechanic is you don't deserve the rewards you can buy with them. Just as you don't deserve the rewards for undaunted pledges, trials and everything else in the game if you are not able to complete them.

Games are about competition, winning/losing, risking, learning and getting better. Without these traits a game would not be fun.

Group up and enjoy (grouping up is the way to go here, they can show you stuff and help you with your builds if you fail miserably.)

Also remember that most people are rather casual. It is always the largest group.

see, you and I already have a couple key points where we disagree. For me, games don't have to be *only* about winning or losing. Lots of them, are...sure. But not ALL. I will also generally agree that entertainment is my goal in just about every game; but entertainment is a very broad term, with a lot of possible outlets.

but, most of what concerns me about your above post is this concept of "what people DESERVE". That, and the general (and wholly unsupportable in my experience) claim that "even if you are casual you should be able to play intelligently enough not to get killed constantly and you will get at least some currency out of farming".

I have played casually - I can't speak as to whether or not it was *intelligently*, but I'm not entirely new or unaware of how pvp works in MMO's in general. I know to group up when I'm new to a zone - I follow the crowd - I can *mostly* pick out targets to gang up on...however, it is very, VERY possible (not just in ESO, but EVERY PVP-MMO i've played) to be easily outgunned without warning. My current highest level character only pvp'd at non veteran levels (and only just recently hit V1 - I hear the veteran pvp zones are even more brutal) and was easy fodder, usually returning to a battlezone after having been defeated, but be brutally defeated without any warning. And judging from the forums alone, my experience is not unique.

but, even putting that aside for a moment - assuming that I *am* able to play and not get killed *all the time* - there is a very good reason to be suspicious of just how much vertical progress can be earned. I'm currently v1 - just how far behind a well geared v14 am I? honestly, I don't know - but judging from reports, I could very easily expect to be TREMENDOUSLY under-powered compared to a person that has spent significantly more time and interest in pvp than I have.

Now, you claim "that's the way it's supposed to be" - but I'm not sure that's true. There's already another thread that I'm currently following making the very simple argument "what if we just artificially leveled/numbered everyone, and the only difference was in the skills you chose to put on your bar" - and you know what...I think that's JUST as valid a point of view as your "people who play more SHOULD be more powerful" idea.

"if you are not able to survive and bank any gems or whatever...you don't deserve the rewards you can buy with them"

this concept of DESERVE, which at the moment *has* to go hand in hand with this concept of "player longer/ deserve to be more powerful" does not sit at all well with me. Pushed to the logical extreme, the argument essentially goes "if you're not dedicated enough to make yourself capable of keeping me from taking whatever I want from you, then you don't deserve to have it" - I know that's not *quite* the argument you're making, but it's still not far enough away to make me comfortable with your current ideas.

anyway, that's the feeling I got from your most recent post, assuming I managed to quote it correctly. Don't get me wrong, I'm not mad at you, and I don't hate you - just...don't like where you're going with these ideas of what people "deserve" to have and do.

Aerius_Sygale

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Wizzo91 wrote: »

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

Congratulations! You have reached the Imperial City! Now turn around and go away, you're not welcome. Only elitists and griefers allowed.

BS argument. Just because somebody kills you and pvp and takes a reward he is a griefer? Killing is a part of war you know. Cyrodiil is trying to simulate a war if you've not noticed it yet.

Don't waste your time, some people are too casual to understand that.

Hey, I've probably played for a grand total of around 4000 hours by now or close to it, but I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, or at least not in a really good shed, so I am gonna suffer from this despite my dedication and loyalty to the game, I think that is just rotten. Gotta stop being taken from, and start being given to...

I hope IC will actually introduce a good polymorph, as it was indicated that it will have polymorphs exclusively obtainable in it, suggesting not just one, but multiple, therefore more than one chance for one of them to not suck. I hate the Draugr Polymorph, along with the Skeleton disguise. Ugh. >.<

nothing2591

I hope i'll be able to exploit my way into the city on my nb on an enemy buff server and just snipe ppl and steal their stuff !

trimsic_ESO

QueenAyrenn wrote: »

Sounds interesting for top-tier PvPers... but like a game-breaker for the lower levels. Maybe when it's released, the majority of people will love it, but it sure doesn't sound like that's going to be the case. It'd be nice for some more detailed information on this.

On every campaign I played I could find organized groups of people that belong to that top-tier PvPers. No doubt these people will be in IC cleaning the city of their enemies so you can get your Tel Var stones safely too. That's the way it worked in DAoC.

Corrupted_Soul

So much negativity from people :'D you haven't even tried it and you're already complaining. Omg. It's no wonder ZOS take barely anything people say on here seriously, it's 99% complaints. When did gamers become so entitled?

technohic

phermitgb wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Wizzo91 wrote: »

I think the system sound awesome and interesting. Finally a real consequence for deaths in PVP. Battles and fights will get more tense and exiting.

I hate how people want everything handed to them, without working for it...

I like this as well. I think people are missing that it is a PvP objective that has real risk and rewards related to PvP and are just thinking about it as a PvE currency that just happens to be lootable by other players.

I am NOT one of the elite PvPers but I sure hope the crew I run with is still around as together we are formidable. I would definitely focus more on support with that in mind.

see, I'm not sure you're really understanding the true worries of the counter argument. People aren't missing that it's a pvp objective - and they're CERTAINLY not missing that there is real risk and reward involved in the system. In fact, the fact that there IS real risk and reward is part of the problem.

Even Casuals recognize that there is risk and reward in PVP. We still play it - not as often, and not quite as...passionately...as dedicated pvpers do, but we do it. Because the risk (namely, disappointment, defeat and time wasted) is relatively equal to the reward (occasional gear, occasional fun, occasional victory). Because there's no *personal* material loss in current PVP (no item damage that I'm aware of, no loss of money or gear, no loss of skill or xp progress or whatnot) defeat is a relatively minor hurt - if it was a more significant hurt, people like myself, that can barely justify the expense of PVP (time and unpleasant experiences) already, will be inclined to spend even less time and effort on PVP than we already do.

remember, for casuals like myself (and I like to think that I might be *reasonably* representative of a portion of the population), the current rewards for PVP are minimal - the cost of PVP has to be roughly equally minimal, or I will happily spend my time in PVE instead where my risk vs reward is much higher in my favor.

Now, don't get me wrong - I'm not packing my pitchfork and torches yet - depending on the actual layout and structure of Imperial City (IC), the nature of so called gank squads and griefers may undergo a change that makes the possibility of loss of...whatever this new currency is called (I forgot already) - a reasonable burden. However, just imagine if, oh lets say...AP's could be stolen off your dead body in Cyrodill currently. Now, YOU may be comfortable with that level of loss vs reward, but imagine all the casuals who drop in to Cyrodill right now, and realizing that if they get caught in the midst of traveling to one place or another...POOF. all progress gone (already limited progress because Casuals don't usually get lots of solo victories in PVP to begin with) - then, again. and again...because they're a vulnerable target, and the people attacking them...LIKE vulnerable easy targets - AND they get to steal their already limited pvp rewards...

cue the dedicated griefers and trolls - and you have a time-honored recipe for "I'm outta here and never coming back."

THIS, I think, is what casual PVP people are most worried about with the current information available for IC. We're already not all that rewarded for PVP'ing in the first place - and now, IC is going to introduce a mechanic that, to our experience, encourages the ABSOLUTE WORST kind of experiences we already have in pvp - but now with greater consequence. I hope you can understand why a segment of the *potential* pvp crowd is very concerned about the current description of IC.

Now, granted, we've only heard the basics of IC - depending on layout, popularity, and how the reward and looting system actually work, it may be far more tolerable than currently imagined - but it is worrisome, and I would say justifiably so.

of course, all of this only matters if you give a damn about the presence of casuals. If you don't, if you're perfectly fine with IC being occupied ONLY by dedicated PVP'ers, then you have nothing to worry about and you can tell us all, in good conscience, to make like a tree and get outta here.

I'm definitely casual myself so I am lost on the casual point but I do see what you are saying. Not sure it will be that bad though. In a game where there is large zergs, you might be able to get behind one and stay relatively safe. Of course, we are not sure how these things will be awarded yet. Guess we just wait and see.

SeptimusDova

My concern is with the Population cap and lag.

1. get stoned err stones..
2. get in a fight to keep them
3. lag kicks in from 200 simultaneous log ins to the instance
4. get kicked out of Cyrodiil
5. Lose the stones
6. lose the Bacon recipe

So I reckon I will get on the PTS and be ready to test like all 7734 broke loose. Any attempt by me to be proactive is better than me being reactive.

Rinmaethodain

Wizzo91 wrote: »

I think the system sound awesome and interesting. Finally a real consequence for deaths in PVP. Battles and fights will get more tense and exiting.

I hate how people want everything handed to them, without working for it...

Wow. handed to them without working for it?

How does spending 3 hours in dungeon farming stones is "not working for it at all".

And then tell me, how is ganking someone to kill him from hidden position in 3 seconds and stealing all his work "working" at all?

Exciting? This will encourage gankers to leech and be parasites to other peoples work. On the contrary, it will discourage hard work because why bother farming dungeons if you can just hide somewhere, dont do ANY WORK and just wait for passer by, kill him and take his stones?

Tholian1

It will be interesting to see how many muggings it will take for people to rage quit because they lost all their special stones yet again.

Rosveen

Wizzo91 wrote: »

I think the system sound awesome and interesting. Finally a real consequence for deaths in PVP. Battles and fights will get more tense and exiting.

I hate how people want everything handed to them, without working for it...

Ha. So sitting on top of a rock twiddling your thumbs for an hour, bursting down an unsuspecting passerby in a couple seconds is "working for it" - but doing quests and fighting monsters for five hours is "wanting to have everything handed to me"? You're funny.

Dionysusjones

This community is way too carebear for this to actually stay implemented. The tears will be at flood levels within the first week and a full reversal will be at hand. I think the idea sounds fantastic as it means more reasons to pvp and makes death meaningful. However those of us that see the good in this mechanic are seemingly the minority and we will be outforumed.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO

Why not make it a toggle? If you turn it on you can loot others and be looted, if you turn it off you cannot loot others and cannot be looted.

That way everyone can be happy.

If you argue that you want to be able to loot people who are not interested in that kind of risk vs reward gameplay then it just show that you are the kind of gamer that get your kick from annoying other players....

Alphashado

I don't mind the idea so long as you can bank the them once you get to town.

If they cannot be deposited into your bank, and you are forced to carry all of them with you at all times, then I think that's a little harsh. Losing the stones you earned a couple hours before hand is one thing. Losing the stones you have earned over the course of a week or longer would suck pretty hardcore.

KerinKor

Dionysusjones wrote: »

This community is way too carebear for this to actually stay implemented. The tears will be at flood levels within the first week and a full reversal will be at hand. I think the idea sounds fantastic as it means more reasons to pvp and makes death meaningful. However those of us that see the good in this mechanic are seemingly the minority and we will be outforumed.

There's a reason no new MMO in years has had such a mechanic and why this will utterly fail at what ZOS seem to be inflicting on the game to achieve.