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Visualization of the Pantheon of the Elder Scrolls - FINAL VERSION UPLOADED! :D

  • Gidorick
    Gidorick
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    Thanks for the input @UTG_Zilla & @Throren. You are both right that I should show that the Falmer actually changed and are considered a different race. (man I wish they had a different name like the Dunmer)
    Why Talos/Ebonarm? I know they've both been attributed as gods of war, but I don't think there's much connection there otherwise.

    That's pretty much the connection. I looked over the various Gods and no one but Talos seemed to be equivalent. Ebonarm isn't an Ehlnofey and didn't really think any Daedra 'fit'. So... Talos. The explanation I'm using as to how Ebonarm can be Talos when Ebonarm predates Talos is that when Talos achieved divinity, he became Talos of all time. Similar to how he changed Cyrodiil's from a jungle to a forest and it changed for all time... like it was never a jungle in the first place.
    The Stendarr/Hoonding connection gives me pause as well, given that The Hoonding is a deity rather exclusive to Redguards. But maybe I'm missing something?

    According to UESP Hoonding "spirit of 'perseverance over infidels'. The HoonDing has historically materialized whenever the Redguards needed to 'make way' for their people". When considering Stendarr is the god of God of Mercy & Well-Earned Luck I made the leap that Hoonding could be "compassionately making a way by providing his followers with luck"

    I know both are HUGE stretches and I'm completely open to other interpretations @theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO. Ebonarm and Hoonding neither seem to be physical beings, especially Ebonarm who seems to only appears through avatars, mortals imbued with his spirit.
    Rosveen wrote: »
    Just some details: who is the Bear? Why is Tsun showed twice? Did you ever explain why you associate Tu'whacca with Magnus? And the line betwee Breton and Altmer is unclear, it looks like Altmer are descended from Bretons.

    Thanks for catching those errors @Rosveen! Stendarr would be the Bear (added) I HAD Tsun as Zenithar but changed him to a Ehlnofey... I just neglected to remove Tsun from Zenithar. Thanks for catching that. :wink:

    As for Tu'whacca:

    Tu'whacca, before the creation of the world, was the god of nothingness. When Tall Papa undertook the creation of the Walkabout, Tu'whacca found a purpose; he became the caretaker of the Far Shores, and continues to help Redguards find their way into the afterlife.

    Magnus fled to Aetherius in the last of Mundus' birth-pains, and his departure tore a hole which became Nirn's sun, itself known as Magnus.

    Arkay is the son of Akatosh, who is Tall Pappa. So while it may be common belief that Tu`whacca is Arkay, I think it's a misconception because it seems Tu'wacca is more closely akin to Magnus than Akatosh.

    You are so right about the Breton/Altmer association. I need to change it to an Aldmer line not from ALTmer. Also, there is some disagreements as to the line of men from which the Bretons sprung. Some believe it was the Nedes, some believe it was the Atmorans.
    Edited by Gidorick on July 19, 2015 1:59PM
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  • Ghrimn
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    @Gidorick
    • Magnus, Magna-Ge & Lorkhan are not Aedra;
    • Tu'whacca is the Yokudan aspect of Arkay not Magnus;
    • Orkey is Malacath & Arkay combined;
    • Xarxes and Riddle'Thar are not Julianos;
    • Kyne is also the Goddess of the Hunt. Dragons call her Kaan;
    • Mauloch is not Mara;
    • HoonDing is not Stendarr;
    • Ebonarm is not Talos;
    • Boethiah is The Anticipation of Almalexia;
    • You make no distinction between Jyggalag and Sheogorath. You should also mention how the other Daedric Princes turned Jyggalag into Sheogorath;
    • Some people say Shor is the Fox and that Orkey is the Snake, some say Shor is the Snake and that Ysmir or Orkey are the Fox. For that reason, I think you should remove the Animal Pantheon;
    • Mephala is The Anticipation of Vivec;
    • Corprus was created by Dagoth Ur not Molag Bal;
    • I don't understand that whole Ehlnofey thingy. Only Y'free is an Ehlnofey. Ada ≠ Earth Bones.
    • Atmoran --> Nord; Nede --> Imperial; Nede + Aldmer --> Breton.
      "Do NOT associate us Nords with those Milkdrinkers, we have nothing in common!";
    • Maybe you should mention that the Old Ehlnofey became the Aldmer and that the Wandering Ehlnofey became the Ancestor Races of Men (Yokudan, Atmoran, Nede...);
    • This is just my personal opinion, but I don't think Khajiit were Elves.
    I think that's all. Mistakes aside, great work! Star Wars picture aside, great design! :lol:

    Edited by Ghrimn on July 19, 2015 5:38PM
  • Rosveen
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    Generally, I think you're trying too hard to associate as many gods from different pantheons as you can, even when it's far-fetched and based only on your personal theories. Which is fine as a start of a lore discussion, but without explanation it might be more confusing to new people than simply presenting each racial pantheon separately. But then you did say it's your own view. :)
  • Gidorick
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    Ghrimn wrote: »
    @Gidorick
    • Magnus/Magna-Ge are not Aedra;
    • Tu'whacca is the Yokudan aspect of Arkay not Magnus;
    • Orkey is Malacath & Arkay combined;
    • Xarxes and Riddle'Thar are not Julianos;
    • Kyne is also the Goddess of the Hunt. Dragons call her Kaan;
    • Mauloch is not Mara;
    • HoonDing is not Stendarr;
    • Ebonarm is not Talos;
    • Boethiah is The Anticipation of Almalexia;
    • You make no distinction between Jyggalag and Sheogorath. You should also mention how the other Daedric Princes turned Jyggalag into Sheogorath;
    • Some people say Shor is the Fox and that Orkey is the Snake, some say Shor is the Snake and that Ysmir or Orkey are the Fox. For that reason, I think you should remove the Animal Pantheon;
    • Mephala is The Anticipation of Vivec;
    • Corprus was created by Dagoth Ur not Molag Bal;
    • I don't understand that whole Ehlnofey thingy. Only Y'free is an Ehlnofey. Ada ≠ Earth Bones.
    • Atmoran --> Nord; Nede --> Imperial; Nede + Aldmer --> Breton.
      "Do NOT associate us Nords with those Milkdrinkers, we have nothing in common!";
    • Maybe you should mention that the Old Ehlnofey became the Aldmer and that the Wandering Ehlnofey became the Ancestor Races of Men (Yokudan, Atmoran, Nede...);
    • This is just my personal opinion, but I don't think Khajiit were Elves.
    I think that's all. Mistakes aside, great work! Star Wars picture aside, great design! :lol:

    Thanks for your notes @Ghrimn. I've made some additions to take your comments into consideration.

    I would appreciate a bit more information on some of your comments.

    Magnus and Magne-Ge gave some of themselves to create Mudus (or at least agreed to help), when they realized that it would consume them, they fled. The divines agreed to create Mundus, gave themselves, but stopped to retain their divinity. How are the divines and Magnus/Magne-Ge different aside from how long they went along with the creation of Mundus?

    I explained my view on Tu'whacca previously.
    Gidorick wrote: »
    Tu'whacca, before the creation of the world, was the god of nothingness. When Tall Papa undertook the creation of the Walkabout, Tu'whacca found a purpose; he became the caretaker of the Far Shores, and continues to help Redguards find their way into the afterlife.

    Magnus fled to Aetherius in the last of Mundus' birth-pains, and his departure tore a hole which became Nirn's sun, itself known as Magnus.

    Arkay is the son of Akatosh, who is Tall Pappa. So while it may be common belief that Tu`whacca is Arkay, I think it's a misconception because it seems Tu'wacca is more closely akin to Magnus than Akatosh.
    How can Tu'wakka be Arkay if Tu'wakka existed BEFORE Akatosh (Tall Papa) who is said to be the father of Arkay?

    Where did you get the information about Orkey being Malacath AND Arkay

    Now, as for these...
    • Xarxes and Riddle'Thar are not Julianos;
    • Mauloch is not Mara;
    • HoonDing is not Stendarr;
    • Ebonarm is not Talos;
    Who would Xarxes, Riddle'Thar, Mauloch, Hoonding, and Ebonarm be then?

    We've discussed the Ehlnofey a bit in this tread. If only Y'free is Ehlnofey, then what are the rest of them?

    If Ada aren't Ehlnofey, what are they? They're not Divines, they're not mortals.

    And don't worry. I've correct the inaccuracies in the Line of Men. I really resisted adding the Nedes... but through conversation on here and further reading I've changed the Line of Men to the following:
    Nirk2Pu.png?1
    I AM making the conclusion that (Atmoran+Nede)+Aldmer = Breton because there are conflicting views on the ancestry of Bretons on the side of men.

    I don't make a distinction between Ehlnofey/Old Ehlnofey/Wanders. I don't think Old Ehlnofey & Wanderers were distinct enough as separate peoples to be considered as such. But that is purely my conclusion.

    I actually used to believe Khajiit were direct creations of Azua, but I think there's enough lore to support that they came from the same lines as the Mer. Perhaps they split off prior to the Aldmer, but I think that would just be speculation. I think the most likely conclusion is that they ARE a line of Mer and what makes them Khajiit is the Binding of ja'Kha'jay.

    Edited by Gidorick on July 19, 2015 5:25PM
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  • Gidorick
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    Rosveen wrote: »
    Generally, I think you're trying too hard to associate as many gods from different pantheons as you can, even when it's far-fetched and based only on your personal theories. Which is fine as a start of a lore discussion, but without explanation it might be more confusing to new people than simply presenting each racial pantheon separately. But then you did say it's your own view. :)

    Well, the "purpose" of this was to combine the Pantheons in the most likely way possible... not to present each races views. It's my thought that every deity in each of the pantheons can be explained as being either an Aedra/Daedra/Ehlnofey/Dremora although I haven't exactly associated any of the gods of the pantheons as Dremora... perhaps there are some that are.

    So while I agree that many of the conclusions might not 100% justified, they are the "most likely". This can be seen in the whole Talos/Ebonarm association.
    Edited by Gidorick on July 19, 2015 5:56PM
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  • Gidorick
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    Made some changes to some of the comments made by @Ghrimn and @theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO.

    REV 4 Changes
    • Changed Bretons to come from Aldmer not Altmer
    • Changed Imperials to coming from only Nedes
    • Removed the claim that Molag Bal created Corprus
    • Changed Aldmer Banner
    • Changed Dova Banner
    • Resized Dreamsleeve banner
    • Changed the influence title of the Tribunal
    • Changed the Banner for the Tribunal
    • Added the "Bear" to Stendarr
    • Added Kaah to Kynareth
    • various visual fixes (including the removal of a star-wars image :wink:)
    Edited by Gidorick on July 19, 2015 7:03PM
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  • R0M2K
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    I love the lore in this game, its a living thing.
  • Ghrimn
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    @Gidorick
    I would appreciate a bit more information on some of your comments.
    How are the divines and Magnus/Magne-Ge different?
    It's all a matter of opinion, and after some thought I've come to consider Magnus, Lorkhan & The Magna-Ge as Aedra. Even though they didn't do as much as the Ehlnofey and the Eight Divines, they still helped in some way, unlike the Daedra.

    How can Tu'wakka be Arkay if Tu'wakka existed BEFORE Akatosh (Tall Papa) who is said to be the father of Arkay?
    All Et'Ada were "born" at the same time. Akatosh was just the first to form an identity, which aided other Et'Ada in forming their own identities. Arkay was one of the very first spirits to do it after the start of time. The terminology of son/daughter of "X" can also refer to a close associate or subordinate of said being, not necessarily their biological offspring.
    Also, Tu'whacca is the God of Souls, and Arkay the God of Life/Death, see the similarity there?

    Where did you get the information about Orkey being Malacath AND Arkay
    "Orkey (Old Knocker): God of mortality, Orkey combines aspects of Mauloch and Arkay. He is a "loan-god" for the Nords, who seem to have taken up his worship during Aldmeri rule of Atmora. Nords believe they once lived as long as Elves until Orkey appeared, through heathen trickery, he fooled them into a bargain that "bound them to the count of winters." At one time, legends say, Nords only had a lifespan of six years due to Orkey's foul magic. Then Shor showed up and, through unknown means, removed the curse, throwing most of it onto the nearby Orcs." - Varieties of Faith: The Nords

    Who would Xarxes, Riddle'Thar, Mauloch, Hoonding, and Ebonarm be then?
    • Xarxes, (Coming Soon™ ...)
    • Riddle'Thar, also known as the Sugar God, promised a paradise to the Khajiit known as Llesw'er. The Riddle'Thar is more a set of guidelines by which to live than a single entity. (No connection whatsoever to Julianos)
    • Mauloch is another name for Malacath.
      In fact, you have it already written on Malacath's description.
      mcKwVxW.png
    • HoonDing, (Coming Soon™ ...)
    • Ebonarm, after reading The Ebon Arm I see him as nothing else but a joke. He's probably just a "Saint" like Jiub, a cultural hero who was deified due to his deeds. (He's actually being removed from the Lore. The mentions of Ebonarm were removed from the ESO version of From the Memory Stone. Here's the Daggerfall version.

    If only Y'free is Ehlnofey, then what are the rest of them?
    If Ada aren't Ehlnofey, what are they? They're not Divines, they're not mortals.
    Ehlnofey are Et'Ada who stayed in Mundus, whether it be because they couldn't leave or because they wanted to stay. Many followed the example of Y'ffre and sacrificed themselves to form the rules of nature, and so becoming The Earth Bones. Others populated Nirn, becoming the progenitors of the modern races. By the end of the Dawn Era the Ehlnofey were long gone.
    Ada are descended from the Et'Ada. In a way they're the God's Avatars. Pelinal was Shor's, Morihaus was Kyne's, Diagna was HoonDing's.

    About the others:
    • Leki, Onsi, Phynaster, Syrabane are just minor Gods;
    • Reman and Rahjin aren't really gods, they're just cultural heroes;
    • Stuhn & Tsun are the Nordic aspects of Stendarr & Zenithar.
    I have no clue about Ius, there's almost nothing about him...

    ...there's enough lore to support that they (Khajiit) came from the same lines as the Mer.
    Official Source?


    Don't try to associate every God to each other, if you can't find a connection it's because (probably) there isn't, don't come up with your own. Not every God is an aspect of another, some of them are a unique entity.
    Edited by Ghrimn on July 20, 2015 2:05AM
  • Enodoc
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    Gidorick wrote: »
    How can Tu'wakka be Arkay if Tu'wakka existed BEFORE Akatosh (Tall Papa) who is said to be the father of Arkay?
    Whoa there.... nothing existed before Akatosh (aside from Anu/Anuiel and Padomay/Sithis), as Akatosh is "universally revered as the "First God.""
    Gidorick wrote: »
    • Xarxes and Riddle'Thar are not Julianos;
    • Mauloch is not Mara;
    • HoonDing is not Stendarr;
    • Ebonarm is not Talos;
    Who would Xarxes, Riddle'Thar, Mauloch, Hoonding, and Ebonarm be then?

    We've discussed the Ehlnofey a bit in this tread. If only Y'free is Ehlnofey, then what are the rest of them?

    If Ada aren't Ehlnofey, what are they? They're not Divines, they're not mortals.
    • I agree with Ghrimn that Riddle'Thar is not Julianos. I think the best place to put him would be along the blue Ja'Kha'jay line connecting Lorkhan to the Khajiit.
    • Mauloch is Malacath (which you already have), I don't know of an association with Mara.
    • Ebonarm is probably just a random god, kind of like Leki and Onsi (but neither of them directly).
    I would say Ada are not gods themselves, meaning they are neither divine nor Ehlnofey. Leaving them out (Pelinal and Morihaus) may be the safest bet there.
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  • Gidorick
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    Thanks for the awesome feedback @Ghrimn & @Enodoc. I tried to find the reason I had Mauloch under Mara at some point and I really couldn't find the reason. I'm going to just have to say that was a mistake on my part. Thanks for catching it!

    I'm going to put the rest of my Reponses in quotes for organizational purposes.
    By me saying Tu'wakka existed BEFORE Akatosh, I mean the manifestation of the deity in Mundus. It is my understanding that Magnus retreated and created the sun and then Akatosh (along with the other Aedra) continued to create Mundus until some stopped to crystalize into the divines... and still more continued to become the Ehlnofey.

    I recognize that Arkay isn't Akatosh's biological child but I believe Arkay crystalized and manifested in mundus after Akatosh (making him a son of Akatosh). Iit appears that Tu'wakka settled into his role as the keeper of the Far Shores prior to the crystallization of the divines. Also, when Mundus began to form, Magnus left and tore a hole into Aetherius.

    I see these two events (Magnus tearing into the Aetherius and Tu'wakka "finding" purpose) as being the same event.

    It's a stretch, but I personally see more thematic similarities between Magnus and Tu'wakka than Tu'wakka and Akatosh. Especially considering that the creation of Akatosh is even up for debate.
    "Orkey combines aspects of Mauloch and Arkay"

    I'm comfortable not making mention of the combination of aspects on this image... I wouldn't consider Orkey to be Arkay. I think the combination of aspects is likely due to Trinimac becoming Malacath.
    As for Khajiit being Mer:

    "Alternate theories abound that their origin, based mainly around the fact that one of the breeds of Khajiit, the Ohmes-Raht, so closely resembles the elven folk that they could be cousins. Some believe that the Khajiit are simply descendant of the original Aldmer settlers in Tamriel, who evolved, like the Altmer, Bosmer, Dunmer, and Orsimer, because of circumstance, ito the cat-like race that walks the dunes of Elsweyr. If so, they are just one more of the alien, sentient species who have made themselves so much a part of Tamriel to be confused for natives." Sugar and Blood: The Cats of the South

    Of course... the next breath of that article states that:

    "The more commonly held belief, however, is that they were not foreign intelligent creatures who became cats to survive the hostile, arid land of Elsweyr, but they were indigenous cats whose knack for change allowed them to survive while other native creatures declined and disappeared. It is strange to think that so inhospitable a land, of blistering heat and crop destroying wind, would have been the fecund womb for one of the original predators of Tamriel, but that seems to be the unlikely likelihood."

    This is what I held to be true, that, like the Argonians, the Khajiit descended from the beasts of Tamriel by being influenced by supernatural means (Hist and Azura) but then I learned that according to the Khajiit themselves...

    "But Y'ffer heard the First Secret and snuck in behind Azurah. And Y'ffer could not appreciate secrets, and he told Nirni of Azurah's trick. So Nirni made the deserts hot and the sands biting. And Nirni made the forests wet and filled with poisons. And Nirni thanked Y'ffer and let him change the forest people also. And Y'ffer did not have Azurah's subtle wisdom, so Y'ffer made the forest people Elves always and never beasts. And Y'ffer named them Bosmer. And from that moment they were no longer in the same litter as the Khajiit." Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi to her Favored Daughter

    And then there's the fact that the Ohmes look like...
    Bothohmes.png

    To me, it would make more sense that Azua would change a mer to look like a cats than change cats to look like mer. This is, however, purely a personal opinion.
    I personally disagree that there are just "other gods" That didn't
    • Opt-out with the Daedra
    • Flee with the Magne-ge
    • Crystalize into a divine
    • Become Ehlnofey

    I have, however, been considering and wondering if there are Aedric equivalents of Dremora. If there were, that would explain many of the random gods... they are "avatars of the divines". Manifestations of sorts. This would explain the separate divine entities and they would be connected to the divines. These could be the Ada.
    I would have to agree that Riddle'Thar isn't Julianos. I read on some random forum a while back where one player liked to think of Riddle'Thar as the Khajiit version of Trinimac (I don't agree with this, just thought it was interesting).

    I quite like the idea of attaching Riddle'Thar to the Lunar Lattice. I wonder if it would make sense to associate the Riddle'Thar with Mundus itself or maybe even go as far as associate it with Aurbis.

    I found this quote I quite like:
    "The Riddle’Thar is not a being. Khajiit see Riddle’Thar all around us. Thus, we explain what is around us through Riddle’Thar. Alkosh was always Alkosh. He used to be more, too, but now he’s just mostly Alkosh." Moon-bishop Najul
    Edited by Gidorick on July 20, 2015 3:18AM
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  • Rosveen
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    Your classification is relevant only to the original spirits. How do you classify mortals who ascended? You have many in your list. Mantling is popular, so I guess that makes it easier. Talos as Lorkhan, which is good enough because they're functionally indistinguishable. The Time Dragon aspects, perhaps. The Tribunal. What about Dagoth Ur, Mannimarco, Tosh Raka who may or may not be part of Aka oversoul. You can usually find connections between them and existing gods. Is this what you would do? Also, just because I'm curious: what about Numidium?
    Edited by Rosveen on July 20, 2015 10:12AM
  • I_killed_Vivec
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    Rosveen wrote: »
    Gidorick wrote: »
    OK. Revision 2 is up... I think all I have left is to add the tribunal...

    Tribunal?

    False, dead gods :)
    They are very much alive at the time of ESO.

    But, but... I'm sure I killed Vivec (put up a good fight for a scrawny man) and Almalexia a dozen years ago!

    As the false gods are there, what about Dagoth Ur? He was "immortal" - until I killed him too :)

  • Enodoc
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    Rosveen wrote: »
    Gidorick wrote: »
    OK. Revision 2 is up... I think all I have left is to add the tribunal...

    Tribunal?

    False, dead gods :)
    They are very much alive at the time of ESO.

    But, but... I'm sure I killed Vivec (put up a good fight for a scrawny man) and Almalexia a dozen years ago!

    As the false gods are there, what about Dagoth Ur? He was "immortal" - until I killed him too :)
    He's in Red Mountain still, he won't wake up and bind himself to the Heart for another 300 years.
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  • Gidorick
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    I've been mulling over people like Dagoth Ur, who are immortal but aren't worshipped as Gods. I think that's where I'm drawing the line, if they aren't considered to be Gods, I'm not including them.

    So, Dagoth Ur and The Nerevarine wouldn't be included. I think I'm going to add the Numidium with an influence line to the Dwemer.
    Edited by Gidorick on July 20, 2015 1:16PM
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  • I_killed_Vivec
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    Gidorick wrote: »
    I've been mulling over people like Dagoth Ur, who are immortal but aren't worshipped as Gods. I think that's where I'm drawing the line, if they aren't considered to be Gods, I'm not including them.

    So, Dagoth Ur and The Nerevarine wouldn't be included. I think I'm going to add the Numidium with an influence line to the Dwemer.

    If you include the Numidium, and it would add completeness to some stories, then don't you have to add Akulakhan? In which case you have to include Dagoth Ur!

    And what about the dragons?

    Though I seem to remember I killed Alduin too :)
  • Rosveen
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    Dragons are already on the chart. Though shouldn't it be dov, not dova?
  • I_killed_Vivec
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    Rosveen wrote: »
    Dragons are already on the chart. Though shouldn't it be dov, not dova?

    Didn't see them at the bottom - though to be honest I just got carried away naming all the "gods" I've killed... ;)
  • Gidorick
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    Gidorick wrote: »
    I've been mulling over people like Dagoth Ur, who are immortal but aren't worshipped as Gods. I think that's where I'm drawing the line, if they aren't considered to be Gods, I'm not including them.

    So, Dagoth Ur and The Nerevarine wouldn't be included. I think I'm going to add the Numidium with an influence line to the Dwemer.

    If you include the Numidium, and it would add completeness to some stories, then don't you have to add Akulakhan? In which case you have to include Dagoth Ur!

    And what about the dragons?

    Though I seem to remember I killed Alduin too :)

    I wouldn't add Akulakhan because it never achieved godhood or directly resulted in the extinction, creation, or heavily influenced any race.
    Rosveen wrote: »
    Dragons are already on the chart. Though shouldn't it be dov, not dova?

    You're right @Rosveen. I should also add drah-gkon and dov-rha.
    Edited by Gidorick on July 20, 2015 3:42PM
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  • Gidorick
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    Ok... so, I'm a bit iffy about the "Avatar" aspect... but it reconciles some of these Gods... the best way to think of them are as a type of Demigods. Two kinds of Demigods here are:
    • Ehlnofey: Divine spirits that have lowered into the Mundus
    • Ada: Mortals that have been imbued with the spirits of the divines and are considered gods themselves, once the Ada become Ada, it appears that they can appear in spectral form or even enter the form of another mortal.

    The Ada would the "unique entities" of which @Ghrimn spoke.

    I have made some alterations to the image... and it's getting... busy. :lol:
    PDuLxCU.jpg?1

    I need to go over the lore of those I've labeled as Ada and Ehlnofey to see if they fit better in one category than the other. Like, Leki might fit better as an Ehlnofey.
    Edited by Gidorick on July 20, 2015 10:02PM
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  • Gidorick
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    Ok.. more changes! I was reading over the comments on this thread by @Enodoc @Rosveen and @Ghrimn and after reading some lore on some of the lesser gods, I had no choice but to accept that some of the gods in the Pantheons aren't Divines, Daedra, Ehlnofey, or Ada.... So I added the Heros and Champions.
    abomE70.jpg?1

    I changed the Tribunal icon to a nicer one.
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  • Sentinel
    Sentinel
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    Still gotta say, Tu'whacca is closer to Arkay than to Magnus.
    UESP Lore on Tu'whacca

    "he became the caretaker of the Far Shores, and continues to help Redguards find their way into the afterlife. His cult is sometimes associated with Arkay in the more cosmopolitan, Forebear regions of Hammerfell, where the names Tu'whacca and Arkay are basically interchangeable."


    Also here's a description of Arkay: UESP Lore on Arkay

    "He is the god of burials and funeral rites, and is generally associated with cyclical occasions, such as the seasons and life/death....The alternative is contained in The Monomyth, which suggests that Arkay was one of the very first spirits to "crystallize" after the start of time.

    Comparing Arkay to Tu'whacca, Yokudan God of Souls, shows this story is allegorical, framing the sequence of events by which an anonymous Aedra found new purpose in the constructs of the mortal plane and took up the mantle of life and death."


    ... And now Magnus:UESP lore on Magnus
    "Magnus, also known as the god of magic, was a prominent et'Ada, one of the Original Spirits. During the Dawn Era, Lorkhan persuaded Magnus and several other et'Ada to help create the mortal plane, Mundus. Magnus was said to have been the architect of Mundus, as he created the schematics and diagrams needed to construct it...
    He fled to Aetherius in the last of Mundus' birth-pains, and his departure tore a hole which became Nirn's sun, itself known as Magnus....
    In the eras that followed, many Altmer and Bretons venerated Magnus as a god and he became a part of their respective pantheons. The Ayleids, masters of the arcane arts, worshiped him as the god of Sight, Light, and Insight and were known to dedicate temples in his name."


    I think the correlation is a bit closer to Arkay, isn't it?
  • Gidorick
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    I had read all that previously @Sentinel. Tu'whacca is the "caretaker of the far shores". Arkay is the god of cycles and life and death Tu'whacca isn't the god of life and death but the "caretaker" of the after life.

    Magnus created a tear in Mundus to Aetherius when he departed the creation event... Tu'whacca sought and found a purpose in the Far Shores when Tall Papa began to create the world. I saw these two things as being the same event. But, as I tend to do, I cracked the spine of a few lorebooks to try to find further support for my thought process and I ran across the following in Before the Ages of Man

    "The following are the most notable events of the Dawn Era, presented roughly in sequence as it must be (understood) by creatures of time such as ourselves."

    Suggesting that events in the dawn era didn't flow lineally, that "time" did not yet exist. Also...

    "When Magic (Magnus), architect of the plans for the mortal world, decided to terminate the project, the Gods convened at the Adamantine Tower [Direnni Tower, the oldest known structure in Tamriel] and decided what to do. Most left when Magic did."

    This leads me conclude that... erm... I was wrong. heheh.

    The lynchpin of my shaky association of Tu'whacca to Magnus was that Magnus left the creation of Mundus BEFORE Arkay settled into his divine form... that appears to be wrong for a few reasons
    • Magnus left at the end of the creation of Mundus "after" the divines has been established
    • During the period when the et'Ada became Aedra time was in flux, so it's inaccurate to claim that one god formed "before" another.

    So, you guys are right! I admit my misunderstanding and concede! I've moved Tu'whacca to be associated with Arkay. :smiley:

    Now... what to do with Ebonarm....
    Edited by Gidorick on July 22, 2015 1:48PM
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  • Enodoc
    Enodoc
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    Gidorick wrote: »
    Now... what to do with Ebonarm....
    Stick him with the Heroes?
    UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
    Join us on Discord - discord.gg/uesp
  • BBSooner
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    (As of revision 5)

    So awesome @Gidorick !

    I was wondering if you were going to make reference to Sheogorath being the 'Hero of Kvatch'/'Champion of Cyrodiil', given the Shivering Isles expansion.
  • Gidorick
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    Enodoc wrote: »
    Gidorick wrote: »
    Now... what to do with Ebonarm....
    Stick him with the Heroes?

    That is what I'm thinking too... because he seems to be more of a legend than an actual person that existed. Maybe he was based on an actual person but the legend has become its own thing.

    Of course the fact that he was removed from the From The Memory Stone of Makela Leki lorebook in ESO kind of supports the idea that he's an aspect of Talos and was added to the lorebooks after Tiber Septim's reign... and I don't really see where Ebonarm was previously a man... and he gave Sai (a hero) immortality.

    GAH! Damn you Ebonarm! lol. He is a cool character though. I like his arm-sword. :smiley:
    Edited by Gidorick on July 22, 2015 3:43PM
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  • Gidorick
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    BBSooner wrote: »
    (As of revision 5)

    So awesome @Gidorick !

    I was wondering if you were going to make reference to Sheogorath being the 'Hero of Kvatch'/'Champion of Cyrodiil', given the Shivering Isles expansion.

    I don't think so @BBSooner. Pretty much all of the "events" that are outlined in this chart happened in the Dawn, Mythic, and First Eras and I think the whole shivering isles event is really a minor event in the grand scheme of things.
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  • BBSooner
    BBSooner
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    Gidorick wrote: »
    BBSooner wrote: »
    (As of revision 5)

    So awesome @Gidorick !

    I was wondering if you were going to make reference to Sheogorath being the 'Hero of Kvatch'/'Champion of Cyrodiil', given the Shivering Isles expansion.

    I don't think so @BBSooner. Pretty much all of the "events" that are outlined in this chart happened in the Dawn, Mythic, and First Eras and I think the whole shivering isles event is really a minor event in the grand scheme of things.

    True, though it's an example of the concept of Mantling - a la Talos.
  • Gidorick
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    BBSooner wrote: »
    Gidorick wrote: »
    BBSooner wrote: »
    (As of revision 5)

    So awesome @Gidorick !

    I was wondering if you were going to make reference to Sheogorath being the 'Hero of Kvatch'/'Champion of Cyrodiil', given the Shivering Isles expansion.

    I don't think so @BBSooner. Pretty much all of the "events" that are outlined in this chart happened in the Dawn, Mythic, and First Eras and I think the whole shivering isles event is really a minor event in the grand scheme of things.

    True, though it's an example of the concept of Mantling - a la Talos.

    True! Talos wasn't first era.... You've got a point there.
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  • Pendrillion
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    Theres still a typo in your Tribunal Section. It should read VIVEC not VIVIC :) Such a great discussion. And great work Gidorick :)
    Edited by Pendrillion on July 22, 2015 3:23PM
  • Pendrillion
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    Also some small tidbit of info about Dagoth Ur. His Mortal Name was Voryn Dagoth... And he was a close Ally of Nerevar and the Tribunes.
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