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PVP Update, June 2015

  • Rune_Relic
    Rune_Relic
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    tplink3r1 wrote: »
    Alcast wrote: »
    It will be in next Major Update in September
    September 2016, right?

    Something like that...but ..they like to keep their options open.
    Never say never....maybe 2017.
    Anything that can be exploited will be exploited
  • pjwb16_ESO
    pjwb16_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭
    Quantine wrote: »
    Leandor wrote: »
    Quantine wrote: »
    Leandor wrote: »
    Quantine wrote: »
    Leandor wrote: »
    Well, they exist. I have been following them around for two days in a row now. Theory < reality.
    NA or EU? I still believe in the power of the 12man group :) Should be possible to counter.
    EU. They managed to dismantle them in the end, but that zerg blew up groups big and small here and there.

    Actually, it was a mistake on their side in the end that spelled their doom. They got locked down in one of the first story oil rooms at chalman milegate with fire balistas front and back and our best small scale group blowing them to pieces. The counter to it is to lock them down and bomb them before they can recharge the proximities, but that is easier said than done with maneuvre and purge.
    Well... I guess mistakes always can get those groups if you use them to your advantage. Which faction are they?
    One of the factions that according to the forum never play anything but small scale PvP and never blob, of course. In this case, AD.

    Well, I am AD and the only group of really strong players I know of, who use proxy detonation, are really playing in small groups. And usually fight against enemies a few times their numbers. So, I don't think you can beat that group without outnumbering them ;-) Maybe if they crash or something... anyways, would be really hard to pull off. The other groups are bigger and yes, they do use detonation, but are for sure not that strong players, so are beatable if you can outsmart them. Their leaders are quite smart too though, at least for some of the groups ;-)

    which group you talking of? only ad group i know using detos is BS and that is definitly not meant here
    ~ here since Beta

    My Youtube Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UCw3x5B-l0S093TAo10WafLA


    EU Server PC @Elendiel
    Fyrusha - NB AD
    Auri-ele - Sorc AD
    Watch me Nae Nae - Magicka DK AD
    Watch me Whip - Magicka DK DC
    Schnuggii - Bubble Templar AD
  • apostate9
    apostate9
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Snit wrote: »
    If we can no longer hop, then the Guild Leaders for the larger PvP guilds must communicate with each other and spread out. If the big dogs all choose the same lunch bowl, none of them will have much to eat.

    OK, that's an awful metaphor. The point is, we see what happens when all the big red guilds join together -- they clean up the map and push all opposition off. They're good, organized and there's a billion of them. If they all pick the same campaign, nobody will PvP there after the first 24 hours.

    And without hopping, that means nobody will PvP anywhere. Not in this game, anyway.

    So the game mechnics should take into account how bad the AD is? Serious?
    Luven Draconis Lvl50 DK, Colonel | Walks-In-Winter Lvl50 Warden, LT
    Deathshead Legion GM

  • apostate9
    apostate9
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    frozywozy wrote: »
    Enodoc wrote: »
    Don't forget guys that these changes are all due in the next major update. i.e, the one that adds Imperial City. That should give enough people an incentive to go to Cyrodiil, even if just for a short while to see what it's all about.

    I hope it is sooner than that, they won't even talk about imperial city much till July according to the front page update. That's more than a year after they first announced it, and nobody is really going to be expecting the content till September-November.

    Not to forget that Fallout 4 release was officially announced in the last E3 for november coming up. The Elder Scrolls Online was discussed for approximately 5 minutes of the full 2hours and a half duration of E3. More than half of the presentation was regarding Fallout 4, which seem to be their main focus since TESO console release is over.

    Really disappointed, personally. Not about the state of the game of TESO (that I love no matter the problems), but because of the direction Bethesda is taking putting their efforts into a single player game instead of one of the most promising mmos of all times.

    I must be really tired, or drunk. I thought I saw you ssay they should spend less energy on FALLOT "GOTY" 4 to promote this bug-ridden csh grab?
    Luven Draconis Lvl50 DK, Colonel | Walks-In-Winter Lvl50 Warden, LT
    Deathshead Legion GM

  • Night-claw
    Night-claw
    ✭✭✭
    @ZOS_BrianWheeler how do i get in touch with you to so that one a big issue could be fixed.
    Edited by Night-claw on June 30, 2015 7:42PM
  • Kloud
    Kloud
    ✭✭✭
    Pvp Arena please!
  • ZOS_BrianWheeler
    ZOS_BrianWheeler
    Lead PvP Designer
    If there's an issue you are not comfortable with posting directly here, you can message me.
    Wheeler
    ESO PVP Lead:
    Cyrodiil, Campaigns, Keeps and Siege, Imperial City, Battlegrounds
    Staff Post
  • pjwb16_ESO
    pjwb16_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭
    Reduce time to kill please by making everyone a bit more tanky like 1.5 or reducing overall damage
    ~ here since Beta

    My Youtube Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UCw3x5B-l0S093TAo10WafLA


    EU Server PC @Elendiel
    Fyrusha - NB AD
    Auri-ele - Sorc AD
    Watch me Nae Nae - Magicka DK AD
    Watch me Whip - Magicka DK DC
    Schnuggii - Bubble Templar AD
  • WarlordWoody22
    OK, I get that, but I don't get how a level 26 can have just as much damage and twice the health of a veteran rank pvp player, I might as well skip the grind to veteran rank and just pvp on alts just to stay competitive with someone 30 levels below me, its crazy unbalanced and really, just makes me not care about leveling when there's no advantage to it in pvp.

    Broken scaling system.
  • WarlordWoody22
    Now if there was a non scaled veteran rank only campaign count me in, at least then it'd make sense when I die, cause its be from a higher rank, giving you more incentive to beat your brains out leveling up, I actually enjoy how it takes so long to level, especially more so if there was a reason to.
  • WarlordWoody22
    Bottom line imo you shouldn't reward the people who complain about not being competitive as a low level in pvp by scaling them to the highest level possible, you should force them to gtfo and level up and earn the massive power your granting them or implement bracketing or your going to start seeing less and less people playing your game and more and more level 10s and 15s in the pvp sector, which imo is the best aspect of this game the rest is nice but feels meh
  • WarlordWoody22
    Or how bout just scale to vr1 otherwise again what's the point
  • Leandor
    Leandor
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Mate, Edit button.

    The only thing that currently scales competitively is Health/Magicka/Stamina. The scaled recovery, damage stats like crit, resists, etc are really useless.

    If build and equipped correctly, you have s slight advantage in those stats still upon getting to veteran ranks. To be honest, the new "battle scaling of pots and food" is what makes scaled characters stronger than they should be by a large margin. But we are used to wrong decisions by now.
    Edited by Leandor on July 1, 2015 10:22AM
  • Quantine
    Quantine
    ✭✭✭
    pjwb16_ESO wrote: »
    Quantine wrote: »
    Leandor wrote: »
    Quantine wrote: »
    Leandor wrote: »
    Quantine wrote: »
    Leandor wrote: »
    Well, they exist. I have been following them around for two days in a row now. Theory < reality.
    NA or EU? I still believe in the power of the 12man group :) Should be possible to counter.
    EU. They managed to dismantle them in the end, but that zerg blew up groups big and small here and there.

    Actually, it was a mistake on their side in the end that spelled their doom. They got locked down in one of the first story oil rooms at chalman milegate with fire balistas front and back and our best small scale group blowing them to pieces. The counter to it is to lock them down and bomb them before they can recharge the proximities, but that is easier said than done with maneuvre and purge.
    Well... I guess mistakes always can get those groups if you use them to your advantage. Which faction are they?
    One of the factions that according to the forum never play anything but small scale PvP and never blob, of course. In this case, AD.

    Well, I am AD and the only group of really strong players I know of, who use proxy detonation, are really playing in small groups. And usually fight against enemies a few times their numbers. So, I don't think you can beat that group without outnumbering them ;-) Maybe if they crash or something... anyways, would be really hard to pull off. The other groups are bigger and yes, they do use detonation, but are for sure not that strong players, so are beatable if you can outsmart them. Their leaders are quite smart too though, at least for some of the groups ;-)

    which group you talking of? only ad group i know using detos is BS and that is definitly not meant here

    Hah, let me clarify :) Since I can't just assume which group we're talking about and although I highly doubt Leandor is talking about BS, I can't simply exclude that possibility, that's why I referred to it (I am very theoretically minded :D). Buut they are by far not the only AD group using proxy-bomb, I know in K O C we used it short after 1.6 went live, however dropped it for a some time because of how laggy TB was, but started using it again quite a while ago... Also I know other small and big groups have been using it, so I don't know why you think proxy-bomb isn't used.... it's really a no-brainer for mgk-dps builds given that you are not totally lagged-out.


    EU | AD | Banana Squad Inc | Arena | The Pariah | Keepers of Cyrodiil

    Arulash, DK, rank 33
    Eledwhen Elmwoods, NB, rank 30
    Lil Aru, OP Templar healer, rank 23
    Aru on Flames, DK, rank 17

    NA | EP | Banana Squad Inc
    Aru's Sis, DK
  • Leandor
    Leandor
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Guys, stop pretending (if you are part of) or believing (if not) in players/groups saying they don't blob. All of them do. They guest on different campaigns for it, maybe, but they do it all.

    It doesn't matter at all if it is done with 40 players or with 15 players. Standing on the crown, spamming heal/purge/tornado/impulse/proximity or whatever other FOTM ability is the death of this game and will only stop once ZOS fixes healing.
  • Tarnumx
    Tarnumx
    ✭✭
    01.07.2015 lies lies
    Banana Squad Inc

    CYKA BLYAT GAMING

    youtube.com/channel/UCK7WFB_iXIlWH5ekxnqhi9g
  • AhPook_Is_Here
    AhPook_Is_Here
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Leandor wrote: »
    Guys, stop pretending (if you are part of) or believing (if not) in players/groups saying they don't blob. All of them do. They guest on different campaigns for it, maybe, but they do it all.

    It doesn't matter at all if it is done with 40 players or with 15 players. Standing on the crown, spamming heal/purge/tornado/impulse/proximity or whatever other FOTM ability is the death of this game and will only stop once ZOS fixes healing.

    No collision, no friendly player interdiction of outgoing friendly damage when los is blocked to hostile target by friendly player. Venn diagrams just become the most efficient method of play because that is how the MECHANICS of the game are set up. We don't need to have a discussion about server epistemology to understand why it is that way and why other things can or can't happen to fix it, that is just the way it is, and likely that is the way it will continue to be until there isn't enough player liquidity to field groups of that size during prime-time.

    It will continue to be that way because ZoS would have to do a number of things to change it. Things that would cost them both material purchases and hours of labor, leading to changes that may or may not work which might scare off more people from the game, and some will not like the changes which will scare off even more from the game. All of the above scares the marketing guy who is likely now in charge of every major decision and every sinch-re-skin and works under a mandate of "Do not let another penny bleed out, even if we can only make the smallest incremental gains on our balance sheet, that is preferable to risk, the existence of your job depends on that".
    “Whatever.”
    -Unknown American
  • Leandor
    Leandor
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Leandor wrote: »
    Guys, stop pretending (if you are part of) or believing (if not) in players/groups saying they don't blob. All of them do. They guest on different campaigns for it, maybe, but they do it all.

    It doesn't matter at all if it is done with 40 players or with 15 players. Standing on the crown, spamming heal/purge/tornado/impulse/proximity or whatever other FOTM ability is the death of this game and will only stop once ZOS fixes healing.

    No collision, no friendly player interdiction of outgoing friendly damage when los is blocked to hostile target by friendly player. Venn diagrams just become the most efficient method of play because that is how the MECHANICS of the game are set up. We don't need to have a discussion about server epistemology to understand why it is that way and why other things can or can't happen to fix it, that is just the way it is, and likely that is the way it will continue to be until there isn't enough player liquidity to field groups of that size during prime-time.

    It will continue to be that way because ZoS would have to do a number of things to change it. Things that would cost them both material purchases and hours of labor, leading to changes that may or may not work which might scare off more people from the game, and some will not like the changes which will scare off even more from the game. All of the above scares the marketing guy who is likely now in charge of every major decision and every sinch-re-skin and works under a mandate of "Do not let another penny bleed out, even if we can only make the smallest incremental gains on our balance sheet, that is preferable to risk, the existence of your job depends on that".
    I have heard those arguments often enough. I am still convinced that removing the Smart Healing from all spells that hit more than one single target will go 95% of the way to break up blobs. The remaining 5% will come from doubling the cost of barrier and all purge morphs.
  • Septimus_Magna
    Septimus_Magna
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Leandor wrote: »
    Guys, stop pretending (if you are part of) or believing (if not) in players/groups saying they don't blob. All of them do. They guest on different campaigns for it, maybe, but they do it all.

    It doesn't matter at all if it is done with 40 players or with 15 players. Standing on the crown, spamming heal/purge/tornado/impulse/proximity or whatever other FOTM ability is the death of this game and will only stop once ZOS fixes healing.

    Its not so strange that this is effective, all heals are on the crown > everyone needs heals to stay alive > everyone stacks on the crown. Group vs group is pretty fun imo, even bigger groups can be wiped if everyone follows the directions of the leader.

    I agree that pvp would be more fun if there were more drawbacks to very large groups (other than insane lag). There's not so much you can do against 50 guys if you're in a group of 10 for example. But even if such a huge group didnt stack there's usually little you can do. Sure you can kill some slackers packing their siege in the back lines but you wont stop them from taking the keep. They will have a lot more outgoing damage and they can res faster than you can kill them. PVP is partly just a numbers game, like it or not.
    Septimus Mezar - Altmer Sorcerer
    Magna Firebreath - Dunmer Dragon Knight
    Septimus Jah'zar - Khajiit Nightblade
    Septimus Thragar - Dunmer Nightblade
    Septimus Rulanir - Altmer Templar
    Septimus Nerox - Redguard Warden
  • AhPook_Is_Here
    AhPook_Is_Here
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Leandor wrote: »
    Leandor wrote: »
    Guys, stop pretending (if you are part of) or believing (if not) in players/groups saying they don't blob. All of them do. They guest on different campaigns for it, maybe, but they do it all.

    It doesn't matter at all if it is done with 40 players or with 15 players. Standing on the crown, spamming heal/purge/tornado/impulse/proximity or whatever other FOTM ability is the death of this game and will only stop once ZOS fixes healing.

    No collision, no friendly player interdiction of outgoing friendly damage when los is blocked to hostile target by friendly player. Venn diagrams just become the most efficient method of play because that is how the MECHANICS of the game are set up. We don't need to have a discussion about server epistemology to understand why it is that way and why other things can or can't happen to fix it, that is just the way it is, and likely that is the way it will continue to be until there isn't enough player liquidity to field groups of that size during prime-time.

    It will continue to be that way because ZoS would have to do a number of things to change it. Things that would cost them both material purchases and hours of labor, leading to changes that may or may not work which might scare off more people from the game, and some will not like the changes which will scare off even more from the game. All of the above scares the marketing guy who is likely now in charge of every major decision and every sinch-re-skin and works under a mandate of "Do not let another penny bleed out, even if we can only make the smallest incremental gains on our balance sheet, that is preferable to risk, the existence of your job depends on that".
    I have heard those arguments often enough. I am still convinced that removing the Smart Healing from all spells that hit more than one single target will go 95% of the way to break up blobs. The remaining 5% will come from doubling the cost of barrier and all purge morphs.

    I don't think so, even if you nerfed templar heals you'd just get high ulti builds and rely on healing springs and mitigation stacks. the urge to stack tighter would be even stronger because you'd rely on things like veil and solar prison for your group. I think all those changes would do would make large group mechanics even more effective against smaller groups and lead to even higher group concentration at each objective. Victory would come down to who can stack the most veils, solar prisons and banners on a flag and what sorc can wait till they are all down to negate them before their group melts.

    The ideas of giving small groups or individuals abilities that scale on disadvantage isn't an idea I support either and have heard often enough. If a group is to be punished for its size let the game mechanics do that, or the group itself do that.

    Anyway, kind of a pointless agenda for both of us since none of the things we are discussing are under consideration.
    “Whatever.”
    -Unknown American
  • Leandor
    Leandor
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Leandor wrote: »
    Leandor wrote: »
    Guys, stop pretending (if you are part of) or believing (if not) in players/groups saying they don't blob. All of them do. They guest on different campaigns for it, maybe, but they do it all.

    It doesn't matter at all if it is done with 40 players or with 15 players. Standing on the crown, spamming heal/purge/tornado/impulse/proximity or whatever other FOTM ability is the death of this game and will only stop once ZOS fixes healing.

    No collision, no friendly player interdiction of outgoing friendly damage when los is blocked to hostile target by friendly player. Venn diagrams just become the most efficient method of play because that is how the MECHANICS of the game are set up. We don't need to have a discussion about server epistemology to understand why it is that way and why other things can or can't happen to fix it, that is just the way it is, and likely that is the way it will continue to be until there isn't enough player liquidity to field groups of that size during prime-time.

    It will continue to be that way because ZoS would have to do a number of things to change it. Things that would cost them both material purchases and hours of labor, leading to changes that may or may not work which might scare off more people from the game, and some will not like the changes which will scare off even more from the game. All of the above scares the marketing guy who is likely now in charge of every major decision and every sinch-re-skin and works under a mandate of "Do not let another penny bleed out, even if we can only make the smallest incremental gains on our balance sheet, that is preferable to risk, the existence of your job depends on that".
    I have heard those arguments often enough. I am still convinced that removing the Smart Healing from all spells that hit more than one single target will go 95% of the way to break up blobs. The remaining 5% will come from doubling the cost of barrier and all purge morphs.

    I don't think so, even if you nerfed templar heals you'd just get high ulti builds and rely on healing springs and mitigation stacks. the urge to stack tighter would be even stronger because you'd rely on things like veil and solar prison for your group. I think all those changes would do would make large group mechanics even more effective against smaller groups and lead to even higher group concentration at each objective. Victory would come down to who can stack the most veils, solar prisons and banners on a flag and what sorc can wait till they are all down to negate them before their group melts.

    The ideas of giving small groups or individuals abilities that scale on disadvantage isn't an idea I support either and have heard often enough. If a group is to be punished for its size let the game mechanics do that, or the group itself do that.

    Anyway, kind of a pointless agenda for both of us since none of the things we are discussing are under consideration.
    But it's a good sounding board for ideas to discuss them. Imagine all group heals are proximity based (those located nearest to the healer get the heal irrespective of current health) including resto heals. Even if you put down veils and novas and whatnot, shooting them with siege will damage all of them. The damage reduction will not prevent whittling down targets, only slow it down. Some survive if stacked up, but most won't because suddenly there is useless overhealing those that are full already.

    Spreading out in small groups around healers will make much more sense. But this spread out formation makes healers vulnerable to focused attacks. Problem is solved.

    Of course, this is just food for thought. It still may be the simplest solution with a noticeable impact on the current meta.
  • AhPook_Is_Here
    AhPook_Is_Here
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Leandor wrote: »
    Leandor wrote: »
    Leandor wrote: »
    Guys, stop pretending (if you are part of) or believing (if not) in players/groups saying they don't blob. All of them do. They guest on different campaigns for it, maybe, but they do it all.

    It doesn't matter at all if it is done with 40 players or with 15 players. Standing on the crown, spamming heal/purge/tornado/impulse/proximity or whatever other FOTM ability is the death of this game and will only stop once ZOS fixes healing.

    No collision, no friendly player interdiction of outgoing friendly damage when los is blocked to hostile target by friendly player. Venn diagrams just become the most efficient method of play because that is how the MECHANICS of the game are set up. We don't need to have a discussion about server epistemology to understand why it is that way and why other things can or can't happen to fix it, that is just the way it is, and likely that is the way it will continue to be until there isn't enough player liquidity to field groups of that size during prime-time.

    It will continue to be that way because ZoS would have to do a number of things to change it. Things that would cost them both material purchases and hours of labor, leading to changes that may or may not work which might scare off more people from the game, and some will not like the changes which will scare off even more from the game. All of the above scares the marketing guy who is likely now in charge of every major decision and every sinch-re-skin and works under a mandate of "Do not let another penny bleed out, even if we can only make the smallest incremental gains on our balance sheet, that is preferable to risk, the existence of your job depends on that".
    I have heard those arguments often enough. I am still convinced that removing the Smart Healing from all spells that hit more than one single target will go 95% of the way to break up blobs. The remaining 5% will come from doubling the cost of barrier and all purge morphs.

    I don't think so, even if you nerfed templar heals you'd just get high ulti builds and rely on healing springs and mitigation stacks. the urge to stack tighter would be even stronger because you'd rely on things like veil and solar prison for your group. I think all those changes would do would make large group mechanics even more effective against smaller groups and lead to even higher group concentration at each objective. Victory would come down to who can stack the most veils, solar prisons and banners on a flag and what sorc can wait till they are all down to negate them before their group melts.

    The ideas of giving small groups or individuals abilities that scale on disadvantage isn't an idea I support either and have heard often enough. If a group is to be punished for its size let the game mechanics do that, or the group itself do that.

    Anyway, kind of a pointless agenda for both of us since none of the things we are discussing are under consideration.
    But it's a good sounding board for ideas to discuss them. Imagine all group heals are proximity based (those located nearest to the healer get the heal irrespective of current health) including resto heals. Even if you put down veils and novas and whatnot, shooting them with siege will damage all of them. The damage reduction will not prevent whittling down targets, only slow it down. Some survive if stacked up, but most won't because suddenly there is useless overhealing those that are full already.

    Spreading out in small groups around healers will make much more sense. But this spread out formation makes healers vulnerable to focused attacks. Problem is solved.

    Of course, this is just food for thought. It still may be the simplest solution with a noticeable impact on the current meta.

    See, I would think that any large group with a desire to win faced with the scenario above would find 2 or 3 more full 24 man groups, one dedicated to siege support and another dedicated to flanking enemy siege support. Rather than just running as 1 16 man group you'd need to scale your group up to deal with mandatory siege response.

    As for the healing stuff, I don't have a templar but I think that would be really annoying to have to run around chasing health bars with rapid up all the time. I think they'd prob prefer a WOW style healing to that, where they were forced to click on frames to target friendly players and the cast heals with back-end cooldowns. If I was a healer and that was implemented, either one, wow healing or chase the bar, I quit the game and uninstall it in a NY minute.
    “Whatever.”
    -Unknown American
  • Leandor
    Leandor
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Leandor wrote: »
    Leandor wrote: »
    Leandor wrote: »
    Guys, stop pretending (if you are part of) or believing (if not) in players/groups saying they don't blob. All of them do. They guest on different campaigns for it, maybe, but they do it all.

    It doesn't matter at all if it is done with 40 players or with 15 players. Standing on the crown, spamming heal/purge/tornado/impulse/proximity or whatever other FOTM ability is the death of this game and will only stop once ZOS fixes healing.

    No collision, no friendly player interdiction of outgoing friendly damage when los is blocked to hostile target by friendly player. Venn diagrams just become the most efficient method of play because that is how the MECHANICS of the game are set up. We don't need to have a discussion about server epistemology to understand why it is that way and why other things can or can't happen to fix it, that is just the way it is, and likely that is the way it will continue to be until there isn't enough player liquidity to field groups of that size during prime-time.

    It will continue to be that way because ZoS would have to do a number of things to change it. Things that would cost them both material purchases and hours of labor, leading to changes that may or may not work which might scare off more people from the game, and some will not like the changes which will scare off even more from the game. All of the above scares the marketing guy who is likely now in charge of every major decision and every sinch-re-skin and works under a mandate of "Do not let another penny bleed out, even if we can only make the smallest incremental gains on our balance sheet, that is preferable to risk, the existence of your job depends on that".
    I have heard those arguments often enough. I am still convinced that removing the Smart Healing from all spells that hit more than one single target will go 95% of the way to break up blobs. The remaining 5% will come from doubling the cost of barrier and all purge morphs.

    I don't think so, even if you nerfed templar heals you'd just get high ulti builds and rely on healing springs and mitigation stacks. the urge to stack tighter would be even stronger because you'd rely on things like veil and solar prison for your group. I think all those changes would do would make large group mechanics even more effective against smaller groups and lead to even higher group concentration at each objective. Victory would come down to who can stack the most veils, solar prisons and banners on a flag and what sorc can wait till they are all down to negate them before their group melts.

    The ideas of giving small groups or individuals abilities that scale on disadvantage isn't an idea I support either and have heard often enough. If a group is to be punished for its size let the game mechanics do that, or the group itself do that.

    Anyway, kind of a pointless agenda for both of us since none of the things we are discussing are under consideration.
    But it's a good sounding board for ideas to discuss them. Imagine all group heals are proximity based (those located nearest to the healer get the heal irrespective of current health) including resto heals. Even if you put down veils and novas and whatnot, shooting them with siege will damage all of them. The damage reduction will not prevent whittling down targets, only slow it down. Some survive if stacked up, but most won't because suddenly there is useless overhealing those that are full already.

    Spreading out in small groups around healers will make much more sense. But this spread out formation makes healers vulnerable to focused attacks. Problem is solved.

    Of course, this is just food for thought. It still may be the simplest solution with a noticeable impact on the current meta.

    See, I would think that any large group with a desire to win faced with the scenario above would find 2 or 3 more full 24 man groups, one dedicated to siege support and another dedicated to flanking enemy siege support. Rather than just running as 1 16 man group you'd need to scale your group up to deal with mandatory siege response.

    As for the healing stuff, I don't have a templar but I think that would be really annoying to have to run around chasing health bars with rapid up all the time. I think they'd prob prefer a WOW style healing to that, where they were forced to click on frames to target friendly players and the cast heals with back-end cooldowns. If I was a healer and that was implemented, either one, wow healing or chase the bar, I quit the game and uninstall it in a NY minute.
    It would have to come with split responsibility in healing, making DDs required to actually position themselves so that their healers would not have to chase them.

    But I can see your point very well. Increasing damage is also not the solution, though. That would invalidate small groups even more. So, what to do?
  • RustedValor
    RustedValor
    ✭✭✭
    The easiest way to stop stacking is magica detonation. The way to stop zergs from using it is to make it also kill the caster with no revive and the damage = 100% of the casters max health irresistable damage. Then you will have tanky suicide members who can survive the zerg just long enough to bomb people stacking and then have to ride back to the front lines. To give a chance to counter, no stealth or invis is allowed while active or on your bar.
    Edited by RustedValor on July 1, 2015 8:18PM
  • ZOS_BrianWheeler
    ZOS_BrianWheeler
    Lead PvP Designer
    "Gate jumpers beware" may be delayed a bit. There will be an enemy kill-zone around Elder Scrolls while in their Temples that is active when the gates are closed. If the gates are open, this barrier goes down and scrolls can be picked up.

    This also means if defending players retake either keep which causes the gate to close, it will bring the kill barrier back up and can effectively stop a scroll grab at the temple if the scroll hasn't been picked up yet.

    We will revisit the gate jumping as that can still be an issue even with the barriers around scrolls.
    Edited by ZOS_BrianWheeler on July 1, 2015 8:25PM
    Wheeler
    ESO PVP Lead:
    Cyrodiil, Campaigns, Keeps and Siege, Imperial City, Battlegrounds
    Staff Post
  • WarlordWoody22
    Not sure gate jumping is a problem, why shouldn't a sneaky thief be able to bypass security and steal the coveted artifacts?

    You want realistic keep battles with army vs army action trebuchets and burning oil, but not the part where they send in the ninjas to ninja your poorly defended artifacts?

    Now by the time I joined on console, you couldn't do this but I sure as hell would have tried if you could, and would expect t others too as well.

    I would have thought more demanding game breaking issues to be filling up your time, but I guess enough people cried about not defending their scrolls properly and having them stolen to make it worth the time.

  • AhPook_Is_Here
    AhPook_Is_Here
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not sure gate jumping is a problem, why shouldn't a sneaky thief be able to bypass security and steal the coveted artifacts?

    You want realistic keep battles with army vs army action trebuchets and burning oil, but not the part where they send in the ninjas to ninja your poorly defended artifacts?

    Now by the time I joined on console, you couldn't do this but I sure as hell would have tried if you could, and would expect t others too as well.

    I would have thought more demanding game breaking issues to be filling up your time, but I guess enough people cried about not defending their scrolls properly and having them stolen to make it worth the time.

    It's a game mechanic. If you were playing 2 flag CTF and one of the rules was you must have your flag on the base to cap the enemy's flag, however, if you stood in the right place you didn't, and it would score regardless of what your flag's location was, that would be a bug. This isn't about sneaky thieves, or coveted artifacts, it's about a scoring mechanism in a scored game.
    “Whatever.”
    -Unknown American
  • AJ_1988
    AJ_1988
    ✭✭✭
    One thing I have seen is when one alliance is dominating due to overwhelming numbers is when they have all the Keeps and the scrolls they sit and spawn kill inside the gates. There is no skill in spawn killing at a starting area nor does it make a player good. It's the same in others games such as cod tho that's a whole different kettle of fish. What if once a scroll was captured the gates close? It's not a big issue for me just might be for others.
  • Morvul
    Morvul
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree that pvp would be more fun if there were more drawbacks to very large groups (other than insane lag). There's not so much you can do against 50 guys if you're in a group of 10 for example. But even if such a huge group didnt stack there's usually little you can do. Sure you can kill some slackers packing their siege in the back lines but you wont stop them from taking the keep. They will have a lot more outgoing damage and they can res faster than you can kill them. PVP is partly just a numbers game, like it or not.

    if the 50 are spread out, your 10 can harass, anoy and delay them.
    if the 50 stack up, you 10 are pretty much out of options (unless the 50 are really, really incompetent)

    when the game was launched, the devs proudly told us that cyrodiil would be full of choke points where large groups would be forced to stack up and fear getting wiped.
    In current reality, those chokepoints are the savest places for large stack groups to be...
    Edited by Morvul on July 2, 2015 8:08AM
  • Attorneyatlawl
    Attorneyatlawl
    Community Ambassador
    Morvul wrote: »
    I agree that pvp would be more fun if there were more drawbacks to very large groups (other than insane lag). There's not so much you can do against 50 guys if you're in a group of 10 for example. But even if such a huge group didnt stack there's usually little you can do. Sure you can kill some slackers packing their siege in the back lines but you wont stop them from taking the keep. They will have a lot more outgoing damage and they can res faster than you can kill them. PVP is partly just a numbers game, like it or not.

    if the 50 are spread out, your 10 can harass, anoy and delay them.
    if the 50 stack up, you 10 are pretty much out of options (unless the 50 are really, really incompetent)

    when the game was launched, the devs proudly told us that cyrodiil would be full of choke points where large groups would be forced to stack up and fear getting wiped.
    In current reality, those chokepoints are the savest places for large stack groups to be...

    That's when you run your group as an extend ;) and string them out with a continuous kite. =) Standing your ground at 5:1 odds usually isn't, as you mentioned, your best choice if you're hoping to win.
    Edited by Attorneyatlawl on July 2, 2015 12:03PM

    -First-Wave Closed Beta Tester of the Psijic Order, aka the 0.016 percent. =P
    Exploits suck. Don't blame just the game, blame the players abusing them!

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