PVP Update, June 2015

Cogo

Anyone who think sieges are not effective are doing something wrong :-p.

Sieges are mostly a team effort and blends in with teamwork. You can siege enemies very well even alone, if you do it from your keep walls. I suggest Fire balista if you want to do good damage. Meatbags are best since they hit a bigger radius. Always shoot at big groups since it hits everyone there. AP/Exp is very good when sieging since you get credited for any enemy you hurt, even if someone else kills them.

I see a lot of complaints about "Blobs". Big groups of enemies are very good for AP and Champion points!

I am curious, if you do not like big groups, is that because you rush them and die?

The improvements to Cyro is going to be great!

Cogo

Cormore wrote: »

taking away the emp buffs after people worked hard for them really? Thats a terrible idea for the people who stayed up multiple days for it

I think the problem with Emps have been that some players just want it for the former emp buffs and stopped playing in Cyro when they get the emp.

Current active emps should fight as much as they can to help the alliance win the campaign. With an emp, you can have tons of fun. :-p

I don't care about emp or the passives they take away. It does annoy me when someone get emp and then logs off. Current former emps gets back skill points and you keep the title. No reason to complain really.

Why are people so focused on emp passives and not the lag fixing ideas?

frozywozy

@Hypertionb14_ESO

I support everything you have said so far regarding siege effectiveness. We share the same opinion regarding that. You just didn't point out the obvious to those guys.

@Manoekin and @Satiar both have great points when they mention that sieges should be used as a tool to support organized groups during their initial push. This way, sieges are doing really well I must admit.

The problem, as I said several times in the past is when a keep is under siege by an organized group and there are almost no defenders yet because the keep got pvedoored. Before the reinforcements arrives, people there should have a tool to slow down the attackers and buy time as much as possible. It should always be easier to defend a keep than attacking one.

Problem comes when we have let say a group of 10-12 players inside the keep who know what they're doing against an organized large group of 24 players who can manage to Efficient Purge + Breath of Life every 0.5 seconds while moving with 4-5 Barriers available.

Even with a combination of 10 fire balistas, oil catapults and meatbags aiming on the breach, the group can easily get inside the courtyard without any problem at all. This is a problem right here. MASSIVE SIEGE DAMAGE coordinated at the same time should be able to take down several players at once.

In this scenario, attackers should be forced to take down a second wall to spread out defenders and find their weakness. No organized group in the world should be able to push a single breach with 10 counter sieges deployed on it. Siege should force people stacking on crown to unstack or die.

There are several ways to stop this from happening. And I don't care about your typical sentence "But this would penalize smaller group mores". NO it would not because no one care about open field battle scenarios.

The only thing that matter is to be able to hold keeps against attackers, which win the war in the end. And "stacking up" should not be an "I win button". There should be a counter to stacking up which is obviously not unstable detonation but siege weapons.

Suggestions :

- Increase cost of efficient purge
- Give the bolt escape treatment to efficient purge
- Add a cast time on efficient purge
- Reduce the number of people affected by efficient purge
- Make it so efficient purge remove player debuffs and purify ritual removes siege debuffs
- Increase the cost of retreating maneuver
- Reduce the number of people affected by retreating maneuver
- Reduce the duration of retreating maneuver
- Change the oil catapults so they can hit only 4 targets and those cannot be purged
- Reduce the duration of Barrier
- Give Barrier strength a determined number which can only be increased by Bastion
- Change the siege damage so it goes through shields

Hypertionb14_ESO

ironically i have lately been able to not only do better solo but been able to seriously harass blobs that dont take one low ranked NB seriously. even managed to kill some who were trying to frontdoor ram fare with a single oil (they didnt do any purges tho) but were actually part of a full blob that had the capacity (and proved it when they rushed it) then when they rushed in, managed to cause at least 5 to die by spamming bombard while a few siege hit them (again the healers and purgebots moved on and the ones that got left behind had no purges)

thats enough fluffy flower...

back to blobs are bad..

even if you ignore any specific cause for what makes blobs work, denying the positive impact not having them has is just foolish..

there is a reason why the non vet campaigns and Console campaigns see such smooth gameplay, and why people Prefer Non-vet to vet. (beyond just meteor) lets analyze that and take the results at face value... More stacking = more AOE = More lag = Less fun for everyone but the blob.

lets fix that... before the situation gets any worse...

there is nothing wrong with grouping up and using tactics... there is however something wrong with how stack mechanics go by completely unmitigated or punished by anything but similar stack mechanics. finding the "key" to breaking blobs will be the ultimate deciding factor on how long this game is able to sustain its PvP.

lets list things that enable stack mechanics.

- AOE diminishing returns (more players stacked the less damage they take from the get go)
- Purge+Barrier+Rapid Mitigating almost everything from players CC to Siege
- Healing in AOE as high as 60k per second from some individual healers, making single target damage generally pointless and mostly immunizing the stack to all damage.
- Complete lack of mechanics that punish players for stacking (like Manticoras Popcorn) that cannot be midigated by stacking
- All major and minor Midigation is stacking based. AOE either around the caster or targeted on the ground.
- Cost effectiveness of AOE healing and Damage being well over 10 better than single target abilities

i point out purge as a good starting point because any time i see a group whose members for w/e reason fall behind or stop purging, CC becomes that much more effective overall... and this game desperately needs CC to be effective. ultimately, Stacking up and Spreading must have an equal chance of winning.

none of this has ANYTHING to do with one person being able to kill a blob with a siege weapon.

Septimus_Magna

@ZOS_BrianWheeler The suggestions sound like a step in the right direction, especially the changes to reduce the calculations of AOE skills to decrease the latency problems.

I know the combat team is probably looking into the problems regarding Meteor. During server lag some players choose to spam Meteor because the ultimate doesnt deplete after activation and the damage goes through with a delay. There also seem be some difficulties if a meteor gets reflected by Reflective Scales or Defensive Posture. Meteor can be a really useful damage ultimate but my guild has decided not to use it in raids because of the latency issues it can cause.

Do you have any concrete plans to solve the problems regarding meteor?

spoqster

@ZOS_BrianWheeler thank you for this update!

What does "and last xx days" mean precisely? Does this imply that Chillrend and Thornblade will be changed to a 7 day duration?

Bleakraven

I just wish I had a chance at surviving a fire ballista bolt. If I get hit, I die within a second or two. Taking a potion doesn't matter...

Rune_Relic

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Last but certainly not least, we have some changes coming for each of the campaigns. We will be making some scoring adjustments to the campaigns in order to provide 4 different campaign styles, each with with different scoring parameters. In all cases the keep transit system, keep bonuses, scroll bonuses, emperorship crowning/deposing, and leaderboards will remain the same except for the scoring and duration changes noted below:

• Azura: Ownership of keeps, resources, Elder Scrolls, and outposts will generate 1 point each per scoring cycle and last 30 days.
• Blackwater Blade: Ownership of keeps, resources, Elder Scrolls, and outposts will generate 1 point each per scoring cycle and last 5 days. (Non-Veterans only.)
• Chillrend: Keeps, outposts, and resources will generate zero points. Ownership of Elder Scrolls will generate 1 point per scoring cycle and last 7 days.
• Haderus: Keeps, outposts, and Elder Scrolls will generate zero points. Ownership of resources will generate 1 point per scoring cycle and last 7 days.
• Thornblade: Resources, outposts, and Elder Scrolls will generate zero points. Ownership of keeps will generate 1 point per scoring cycle and last 7 days.
• Versidue-Shae (Console Only): Ownership of keeps, resources, Elder Scrolls, and outposts will generate 1 point each per scoring cycle and last 5 days. (Non-Veterans only.)

All campaigns noted above will be ended when the patch with these changes is live, and start at a score of 0. We have not yet determined if we will reset all objectives to their starting alliances. We will communicate this in the associated patch notes.

As always, these changes are subject to change based on feedback and testing, but this is the direction we’re going with PVP and Cyrodiil. Hopefully this post shows we are dedicated to delivering a solid PVP experience, and we thank you again for your loyalty to the war in Cyrodiil and your feedback!

We’ll see you on the battlefield!

spoqster wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler thank you for this update!

What does "and last xx days" mean precisely? Does this imply that Chillrend and Thornblade will be changed to a 7 day duration?

Enodoc

Bleakraven wrote: »

I just wish I had a chance at surviving a fire ballista bolt. If I get hit, I die within a second or two. Taking a potion doesn't matter...

So... don't get hit?

Rune_Relic wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler thank you for this update!

What does "and last xx days" mean precisely? Does this imply that Chillrend and Thornblade will be changed to a 7 day duration?

That's how I interpret it.

Bleakraven

Enodoc wrote: »

Bleakraven wrote: »

I just wish I had a chance at surviving a fire ballista bolt. If I get hit, I die within a second or two. Taking a potion doesn't matter...

So... don't get hit?

I'm pretty good at dodging them, it's just that I wish I could do something against it at all if I do get hit. Or maybe I just have bad luck, because it's the only siege engine I see people use (when not attacking a keep).

Reverb

Bleakraven wrote: »

I just wish I had a chance at surviving a fire ballista bolt. If I get hit, I die within a second or two. Taking a potion doesn't matter...

Are you a vamp? Unless you are, you should be able to survive a fire ballista bolt at vet ranks (unless you're taking damage from another source at the same time).

Lava_Croft

Bleakraven wrote: »

I just wish I had a chance at surviving a fire ballista bolt. If I get hit, I die within a second or two. Taking a potion doesn't matter...

Purge the DoT instantly.

Bleakraven

I'm actually a Dunmer but VR1, thanks for the tips, I'll see if I can morph something to purge the burning.

newtinmpls

Okay so we can still jump to player in PvE? Otherwise it's hard to group for adventuring together.

Enodoc

newtinmpls wrote: »

Okay so we can still jump to player in PvE? Otherwise it's hard to group for adventuring together.

Yeah, I believe so. Brian is only suggesting removing "Social jumping into Cyrodiil or any PVP space".
(Although I would like it removed from Coldharbour before the story takes you there as well, but that's a wish for another thread.)

Hypertionb14_ESO

Bleakraven wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Bleakraven wrote: »

I just wish I had a chance at surviving a fire ballista bolt. If I get hit, I die within a second or two. Taking a potion doesn't matter...

So... don't get hit?

I'm pretty good at dodging them, it's just that I wish I could do something against it at all if I do get hit. Or maybe I just have bad luck, because it's the only siege engine I see people use (when not attacking a keep).

dont actually need purge, all classes have a option that lest them repeatedly midigate Siege.

NBs have a Shadow Cloak morph that removes the DOT
Sorcs have healing pets, Powerful shields, and Dark Exchange all which heal the damage or prevent it
Templars have Healing ritual which purges and more heals than any other class
DKs have Dragons Blood + Obsidian Shield.

in addition to this there are options avilable to all classes.

All restoration Staff heals, 2handed Rally Heal, Energy Orb in Undaunted tree, and of course Purge..

why people act like Purge is the end all be all is beyond me.

Shadea

Eucken wrote: »

The "Former Emperor" buffs are being removed from the game.....

I don't like that change. Yes I am a former emperor and I like my buffs but the emperor

I can understand your not happy to lose something you had.
I was thinking about it because i wanted the former passives...
But i gotta say i'm happy i didn't get to that part where i took a week or more off work to get it.
Getting emp is really a timer consumer.. no skill line should be that hard to get.

Sallington

This is the first thread in months that is close to getting me hyped enough to reinstall.

Xiphyla

frozywozy wrote: »

@Hypertionb14_ESO

I support everything you have said so far regarding siege effectiveness. We share the same opinion regarding that. You just didn't point out the obvious to those guys.

@Manoekin and @Satiar both have great points when they mention that sieges should be used as a tool to support organized groups during their initial push. This way, sieges are doing really well I must admit.

The problem, as I said several times in the past is when a keep is under siege by an organized group and there are almost no defenders yet because the keep got pvedoored. Before the reinforcements arrives, people there should have a tool to slow down the attackers and buy time as much as possible. It should always be easier to defend a keep than attacking one.

Problem comes when we have let say a group of 10-12 players inside the keep who know what they're doing against an organized large group of 24 players who can manage to Efficient Purge + Breath of Life every 0.5 seconds while moving with 4-5 Barriers available.

Even with a combination of 10 fire balistas, oil catapults and meatbags aiming on the breach, the group can easily get inside the courtyard without any problem at all. This is a problem right here. MASSIVE SIEGE DAMAGE coordinated at the same time should be able to take down several players at once.

In this scenario, attackers should be forced to take down a second wall to spread out defenders and find their weakness. No organized group in the world should be able to push a single breach with 10 counter sieges deployed on it. Siege should force people stacking on crown to unstack or die.

There are several ways to stop this from happening. And I don't care about your typical sentence "But this would penalize smaller group mores". NO it would not because no one care about open field battle scenarios.

The only thing that matter is to be able to hold keeps against attackers, which win the war in the end. And "stacking up" should not be an "I win button". There should be a counter to stacking up which is obviously not unstable detonation but siege weapons.

Suggestions :

- Increase cost of efficient purge
- Give the bolt escape treatment to efficient purge
- Add a cast time on efficient purge
- Reduce the number of people affected by efficient purge
- Make it so efficient purge remove player debuffs and purify ritual removes siege debuffs
- Increase the cost of retreating maneuver
- Reduce the number of people affected by retreating maneuver
- Reduce the duration of retreating maneuver
- Change the oil catapults so they can hit only 4 targets and those cannot be purged
- Reduce the duration of Barrier
- Give Barrier strength a determined number which can only be increased by Bastion
- Change the siege damage so it goes through shields

Highlight yes , non-highlight no

They should make after you dodgeroll more than 3 or 4 times , the dodgeroll cost 50 percent more.
Nirnhoned should get nerf by making it into spell resistance number based instead of percentage based.

Manoekin

@zos_ro

frozywozy wrote: »

Suggestions :

- Increase cost of efficient purge
- Give the bolt escape treatment to efficient purge
- Add a cast time on efficient purge
- Reduce the number of people affected by efficient purge
- Make it so efficient purge remove player debuffs and purify ritual removes siege debuffs
- Increase the cost of retreating maneuver
- Reduce the number of people affected by retreating maneuver
- Reduce the duration of retreating maneuver
- Change the oil catapults so they can hit only 4 targets and those cannot be purged
- Reduce the duration of Barrier
- Give Barrier strength a determined number which can only be increased by Bastion
- Change the siege damage so it goes through shields

Only ones I really agree with. Retreating should get the immovable treatment imo. Lately I've just been using retreating + an immovable pot for like 13 seconds of complete immunity to everything while moving fast as hell. No way should I be able to do that. And I've always been a proponent of making every shield health percent based like Blazing Shield. It's by far the easiest way to balance it out, and you can give shields that don't have a special effect one to compensate for maybe not being as strong after. It also encourages people to spend a little more in health than the other stats though you can argue people wouldn't do that.

I feel efficient purge is fine... if you're using that you're probably hurting your group anyway. Cleanse is much better with a much higher cost to balance it out. ZOS actually thought it wasn't good because no one used it and they buffed it in 1.6 PTS until we had to tell them how stupidly strong the skill is, and then they not only reverted it but nerfed it slightly. I'd be okay with them making purge only hit 12-16 people since if you have more than that you likely have multiple people purging anyway. Oil catas already discussed for my pov, and siege damage + shields would be better with a change to how shields work.

Lord_Draevan

A nice zerg-busting Ultimate in either Assault or Support would be a good start. One that deals increasing damage based on how many people are inside its radius, with no limit to how many it can hit.

I'm just brainstorming, say 100% damage to everyone caught in the radius if it hits 1 person, 125% for 2, 150% for 3, and if a full group of 24 gets caught... they all die, or damn near close. I'd rather it be an instant damage like Meteor rather than damage over time like Nova.

Again this is just a brainstorm, but an ability like this one would be nice.

Hypertionb14_ESO

Manoekin wrote: »

@zos_ro

frozywozy wrote: »

Suggestions :

- Increase cost of efficient purge
- Give the bolt escape treatment to efficient purge
- Add a cast time on efficient purge
- Reduce the number of people affected by efficient purge
- Make it so efficient purge remove player debuffs and purify ritual removes siege debuffs
- Increase the cost of retreating maneuver
- Reduce the number of people affected by retreating maneuver
- Reduce the duration of retreating maneuver
- Change the oil catapults so they can hit only 4 targets and those cannot be purged
- Reduce the duration of Barrier
- Give Barrier strength a determined number which can only be increased by Bastion
- Change the siege damage so it goes through shields

Only ones I really agree with. Retreating should get the immovable treatment imo. Lately I've just been using retreating + an immovable pot for like 13 seconds of complete immunity to everything while moving fast as hell. No way should I be able to do that. And I've always been a proponent of making every shield health percent based like Blazing Shield. It's by far the easiest way to balance it out, and you can give shields that don't have a special effect one to compensate for maybe not being as strong after. It also encourages people to spend a little more in health than the other stats though you can argue people wouldn't do that.

I feel efficient purge is fine... if you're using that you're probably hurting your group anyway. Cleanse is much better with a much higher cost to balance it out. ZOS actually thought it wasn't good because no one used it and they buffed it in 1.6 PTS until we had to tell them how stupidly strong the skill is, and then they not only reverted it but nerfed it slightly. I'd be okay with them making purge only hit 12-16 people since if you have more than that you likely have multiple people purging anyway. Oil catas already discussed for my pov, and siege damage + shields would be better with a change to how shields work.

cleanse? the healing morph? what does the morph have to do with anything in the fact that purge is basically able to 100% immunize a group? the cost is not the issue, AT all. its the sheer number of purge per second that is the issue, and the fact that even with a cast time or recast increase on the base skill, it will still go as fast as it does.

Manoekin

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

@zos_ro

frozywozy wrote: »

Suggestions :

- Increase cost of efficient purge
- Give the bolt escape treatment to efficient purge
- Add a cast time on efficient purge
- Reduce the number of people affected by efficient purge
- Make it so efficient purge remove player debuffs and purify ritual removes siege debuffs
- Increase the cost of retreating maneuver
- Reduce the number of people affected by retreating maneuver
- Reduce the duration of retreating maneuver
- Change the oil catapults so they can hit only 4 targets and those cannot be purged
- Reduce the duration of Barrier
- Give Barrier strength a determined number which can only be increased by Bastion
- Change the siege damage so it goes through shields

Only ones I really agree with. Retreating should get the immovable treatment imo. Lately I've just been using retreating + an immovable pot for like 13 seconds of complete immunity to everything while moving fast as hell. No way should I be able to do that. And I've always been a proponent of making every shield health percent based like Blazing Shield. It's by far the easiest way to balance it out, and you can give shields that don't have a special effect one to compensate for maybe not being as strong after. It also encourages people to spend a little more in health than the other stats though you can argue people wouldn't do that.

I feel efficient purge is fine... if you're using that you're probably hurting your group anyway. Cleanse is much better with a much higher cost to balance it out. ZOS actually thought it wasn't good because no one used it and they buffed it in 1.6 PTS until we had to tell them how stupidly strong the skill is, and then they not only reverted it but nerfed it slightly. I'd be okay with them making purge only hit 12-16 people since if you have more than that you likely have multiple people purging anyway. Oil catas already discussed for my pov, and siege damage + shields would be better with a change to how shields work.

cleanse? the healing morph? what does the morph have to do with anything in the fact that purge is basically able to 100% immunize a group? the cost is not the issue, AT all. its the sheer number of purge per second that is the issue, and the fact that even with a cast time or recast increase on the base skill, it will still go as fast as it does.

Purge itself does not immunize you. You still take a lot of damage from the initial hits. If you are purging you are not healing or doing damage(if you are using cleanse at least you are healing), and you can get debuffs stacked on you just as fast as you can purge them off. Seems fair to me.

Contraptions

My take on the siege/grouping issue:

Siege still has the potential to be the best anti group weapon, as opposed to a player cast skill, since any skill that does good damage has the potential to be spammed by an even larger group. Even with damage scaling based on targets hit I find it hard to justify one player taking out many targets with a single key press. Siege is loud and obvious, is telegraphed, and requires time to place and fire. The difficulty of landing a good shot on an enemy group moving around in my opinion justifies why "one person" should be able to inconvenience "many".

Of course neither siege nor purge should be an "I win" button, which is why I think siege effects should not be purgeable, but in return must be toned down. Instead on focusing on pure damage (aka why firepots and fire ballista are pretty much the only kinds of siege used against players), I would envision the different types of siege being "debuffers" in their own unique way. So while getting hit once or twice wouldn't be a death sentence, getting hit multiple times by different siege would make your life rather difficult. It wouldn't necessarily kill you, but would make it easier for the enemy players to finish you off. It would also make the other kinds of siege more appealing, for example:

Trebs fire slow, so getting hit should be more painful.
Iceball treb: Minor damage to health, damage to stamina, max stam and stam regen.
Fire treb: Damage to heath, max health and health regen.
Stone treb: Second highest dps against walls, since it can fire over the outer.

Fire ballistae: Damage to health, plus minor DOT.
Lightning ballistae: Minor damage to health. damage to magicka, max magicka and magicka regen.
Ballistae: Highest dps against walls.

Catapults being less useful against walls will be more useful against players.
Oil catapult: Damage to health and snare
Meatbag: Damage to health and healing received.
Scattershot: Damage to health and short knockdown.

Firepot: Minor damage to health, DOT and snare

or something similar. Give us a reason to use and combine all the different siege weapons you've included ZOS.


Finally, one small UI change I would like to see. Friendly siege should use an expanding green circle to differentiate against friendly AOEs (green circle) and enemy siege (expanding red circle).

Just my two cents.

LazyLewis

LazyLewis wrote: »

So firstly My Wheeler lets talk about locking people down on campaigns so they can't jump to one another when they wish. This will have DISASTROUS CONSEQUENCES. For Example. Just now I was in a 10 man group in AD and we were at Faregyl defending our last keep on the map. There was a full population EP trying to get the keep. 70 Minimum. They have now taken everything on the entire map 6-7 hours into the new campaign There was maybe 20 AD at Fare defending because other AD were on other campaigns. So if for the next two weeks the entire map was like this wouldn't my group get bored? Wouldn't my group want to move campaigns because they cannot take on 70 EP? Would we not think "What's the point, we're stuck in this campaign there's nothing we can do". In Situations like this people generally go to a campaign which is more balanced...why?....because They can. They don't want to get rolled over by 70 dudes so they change. With your plans they will be stuck while all the other AD guilds are in other campaigns. Locking people down will make people quit/not pvp/pvp a lot less. (This is not a complaint at EP too many guilds homed Chillrend this time round simple as)

Secondly. You want to take away my former Emperor Buff? The one I grinded for. The one I stayed awake for 38 hours straight for? The buff that I booked a few days off work for? The buff that I invested hundreds of thousands of gold into? Im sorry that there are some people out there who will never get Emp but some of us have spilled blood and sweated for this!

Lets go over Former Emp Buffs

Increase Healing Taken by 1% - On a 15k Breathe of Life this 150 Extra healing which is about 0.75% of the average Max health in PvP

5% Cost on Ultimate Reductions - This is the best one but when you crunch the numbers it allows you to get Ultimate (lets say the ultimate cost 100) 3 seconds faster than someone else.

2% Max Magika, Stamina, Health - If someone has 25k Health that an extra 500 Health. That's half of what you could get from an Infused Kuta Health Enchant.

Increase Siege against keeps by 2% - This is 40 more Damage on a Ballista with an overall of 2000 - If you crunch some numbers this means that if 20 people had 20 Dominion Balista's on a keep wall and they were all former Emperor's they would get the wall down 2% faster which is 1.2 Seconds faster if it took 1 minute to siege the wall down! (OP MUCH? Please see the sarcasm in this)

Emperor Buffs are not game breaking. Who ever say's they are they need to re-evaluate their build and they play their game. If I have seen a level 30 kill a V14 then a Non Ex Emp Group can kill a Full ex Emp Group! It happens all the time!

Right here it may look like i'm trying to make the Emp Buffs look like less than they are so they are not taken away. They are not Game Breaking. They are not gaming change BUT I earned my 2% Max Magika! I earned My my 5% Ultimate Cost reduction and HOW DARE YOU TRY TAKE IT AWAY!

Al the other changes do not bother me but maybe someone else might show their opinion here!

The Uninvited

I agree on the part of the Emperor buffs LazyLewis, but on the first part I don't.

If campaigns are travel-locked, wouldn't this mean that factions would pick their campaign more carefully and stay in one campaign? So that the players who are now in other campaigns will be on the same campaign as you? You would have 70 people coming for you, but at the same time you would have 70 as well to defend.

Hypertionb14_ESO

Manoekin wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

@zos_ro

frozywozy wrote: »

Suggestions :

- Increase cost of efficient purge
- Give the bolt escape treatment to efficient purge
- Add a cast time on efficient purge
- Reduce the number of people affected by efficient purge
- Make it so efficient purge remove player debuffs and purify ritual removes siege debuffs
- Increase the cost of retreating maneuver
- Reduce the number of people affected by retreating maneuver
- Reduce the duration of retreating maneuver
- Change the oil catapults so they can hit only 4 targets and those cannot be purged
- Reduce the duration of Barrier
- Give Barrier strength a determined number which can only be increased by Bastion
- Change the siege damage so it goes through shields

Only ones I really agree with. Retreating should get the immovable treatment imo. Lately I've just been using retreating + an immovable pot for like 13 seconds of complete immunity to everything while moving fast as hell. No way should I be able to do that. And I've always been a proponent of making every shield health percent based like Blazing Shield. It's by far the easiest way to balance it out, and you can give shields that don't have a special effect one to compensate for maybe not being as strong after. It also encourages people to spend a little more in health than the other stats though you can argue people wouldn't do that.

I feel efficient purge is fine... if you're using that you're probably hurting your group anyway. Cleanse is much better with a much higher cost to balance it out. ZOS actually thought it wasn't good because no one used it and they buffed it in 1.6 PTS until we had to tell them how stupidly strong the skill is, and then they not only reverted it but nerfed it slightly. I'd be okay with them making purge only hit 12-16 people since if you have more than that you likely have multiple people purging anyway. Oil catas already discussed for my pov, and siege damage + shields would be better with a change to how shields work.

cleanse? the healing morph? what does the morph have to do with anything in the fact that purge is basically able to 100% immunize a group? the cost is not the issue, AT all. its the sheer number of purge per second that is the issue, and the fact that even with a cast time or recast increase on the base skill, it will still go as fast as it does.

Purge itself does not immunize you. You still take a lot of damage from the initial hits. If you are purging you are not healing or doing damage(if you are using cleanse at least you are healing), and you can get debuffs stacked on you just as fast as you can purge them off. Seems fair to me.

alright... clearly you have not seen how purge functions in those blob groups...

Not having enough heals is DEFINITLY not a issue in those groups....

Manoekin

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

@zos_ro

frozywozy wrote: »

Suggestions :

- Increase cost of efficient purge
- Give the bolt escape treatment to efficient purge
- Add a cast time on efficient purge
- Reduce the number of people affected by efficient purge
- Make it so efficient purge remove player debuffs and purify ritual removes siege debuffs
- Increase the cost of retreating maneuver
- Reduce the number of people affected by retreating maneuver
- Reduce the duration of retreating maneuver
- Change the oil catapults so they can hit only 4 targets and those cannot be purged
- Reduce the duration of Barrier
- Give Barrier strength a determined number which can only be increased by Bastion
- Change the siege damage so it goes through shields

Only ones I really agree with. Retreating should get the immovable treatment imo. Lately I've just been using retreating + an immovable pot for like 13 seconds of complete immunity to everything while moving fast as hell. No way should I be able to do that. And I've always been a proponent of making every shield health percent based like Blazing Shield. It's by far the easiest way to balance it out, and you can give shields that don't have a special effect one to compensate for maybe not being as strong after. It also encourages people to spend a little more in health than the other stats though you can argue people wouldn't do that.

I feel efficient purge is fine... if you're using that you're probably hurting your group anyway. Cleanse is much better with a much higher cost to balance it out. ZOS actually thought it wasn't good because no one used it and they buffed it in 1.6 PTS until we had to tell them how stupidly strong the skill is, and then they not only reverted it but nerfed it slightly. I'd be okay with them making purge only hit 12-16 people since if you have more than that you likely have multiple people purging anyway. Oil catas already discussed for my pov, and siege damage + shields would be better with a change to how shields work.

cleanse? the healing morph? what does the morph have to do with anything in the fact that purge is basically able to 100% immunize a group? the cost is not the issue, AT all. its the sheer number of purge per second that is the issue, and the fact that even with a cast time or recast increase on the base skill, it will still go as fast as it does.

Purge itself does not immunize you. You still take a lot of damage from the initial hits. If you are purging you are not healing or doing damage(if you are using cleanse at least you are healing), and you can get debuffs stacked on you just as fast as you can purge them off. Seems fair to me.

alright... clearly you have not seen how purge functions in those blob groups...

Not having enough heals is DEFINITLY not a issue in those groups....

And you did not understand what I said lol.

Hypertionb14_ESO

Manoekin wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

@zos_ro

frozywozy wrote: »

Suggestions :

- Increase cost of efficient purge
- Give the bolt escape treatment to efficient purge
- Add a cast time on efficient purge
- Reduce the number of people affected by efficient purge
- Make it so efficient purge remove player debuffs and purify ritual removes siege debuffs
- Increase the cost of retreating maneuver
- Reduce the number of people affected by retreating maneuver
- Reduce the duration of retreating maneuver
- Change the oil catapults so they can hit only 4 targets and those cannot be purged
- Reduce the duration of Barrier
- Give Barrier strength a determined number which can only be increased by Bastion
- Change the siege damage so it goes through shields

Only ones I really agree with. Retreating should get the immovable treatment imo. Lately I've just been using retreating + an immovable pot for like 13 seconds of complete immunity to everything while moving fast as hell. No way should I be able to do that. And I've always been a proponent of making every shield health percent based like Blazing Shield. It's by far the easiest way to balance it out, and you can give shields that don't have a special effect one to compensate for maybe not being as strong after. It also encourages people to spend a little more in health than the other stats though you can argue people wouldn't do that.

I feel efficient purge is fine... if you're using that you're probably hurting your group anyway. Cleanse is much better with a much higher cost to balance it out. ZOS actually thought it wasn't good because no one used it and they buffed it in 1.6 PTS until we had to tell them how stupidly strong the skill is, and then they not only reverted it but nerfed it slightly. I'd be okay with them making purge only hit 12-16 people since if you have more than that you likely have multiple people purging anyway. Oil catas already discussed for my pov, and siege damage + shields would be better with a change to how shields work.

cleanse? the healing morph? what does the morph have to do with anything in the fact that purge is basically able to 100% immunize a group? the cost is not the issue, AT all. its the sheer number of purge per second that is the issue, and the fact that even with a cast time or recast increase on the base skill, it will still go as fast as it does.

Purge itself does not immunize you. You still take a lot of damage from the initial hits. If you are purging you are not healing or doing damage(if you are using cleanse at least you are healing), and you can get debuffs stacked on you just as fast as you can purge them off. Seems fair to me.

alright... clearly you have not seen how purge functions in those blob groups...

Not having enough heals is DEFINITLY not a issue in those groups....

And you did not understand what I said lol.

you are saying that taking the clense morph is better because it heals, which those who run the other morph do not do.. and since the ones who purge generally just spam it infinitely (cost reduction + regen) they are not helping out with heals or DPS.

what you did not get, is that those groups already have so much of both healing and DPS that anything from the clense spell is redundant, and because it only procs when it clears a debuff, is generally a waste of mana since you cannot spam that spell infinitely like you can the other morph.

the cost is so massive that it cannot be sustained, and those groups want the sustained because it allows them to completely ignore any CC or DOT that hits them for the most part. in that respect the healing morph will never be a good option..

its not even a better option in small groups... the cost is so high and the restore is lower than the damage generally taken that is caused by the effects removed that healing is still needed in addition. better to have the lower cost there and just pop off a single heal instead.

if you try and use cleanse in a situation where you are a dedicated purge bot... you are the one hurting your group...

Manoekin

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

@zos_ro

frozywozy wrote: »

Suggestions :

- Increase cost of efficient purge
- Give the bolt escape treatment to efficient purge
- Add a cast time on efficient purge
- Reduce the number of people affected by efficient purge
- Make it so efficient purge remove player debuffs and purify ritual removes siege debuffs
- Increase the cost of retreating maneuver
- Reduce the number of people affected by retreating maneuver
- Reduce the duration of retreating maneuver
- Change the oil catapults so they can hit only 4 targets and those cannot be purged
- Reduce the duration of Barrier
- Give Barrier strength a determined number which can only be increased by Bastion
- Change the siege damage so it goes through shields

Only ones I really agree with. Retreating should get the immovable treatment imo. Lately I've just been using retreating + an immovable pot for like 13 seconds of complete immunity to everything while moving fast as hell. No way should I be able to do that. And I've always been a proponent of making every shield health percent based like Blazing Shield. It's by far the easiest way to balance it out, and you can give shields that don't have a special effect one to compensate for maybe not being as strong after. It also encourages people to spend a little more in health than the other stats though you can argue people wouldn't do that.

I feel efficient purge is fine... if you're using that you're probably hurting your group anyway. Cleanse is much better with a much higher cost to balance it out. ZOS actually thought it wasn't good because no one used it and they buffed it in 1.6 PTS until we had to tell them how stupidly strong the skill is, and then they not only reverted it but nerfed it slightly. I'd be okay with them making purge only hit 12-16 people since if you have more than that you likely have multiple people purging anyway. Oil catas already discussed for my pov, and siege damage + shields would be better with a change to how shields work.

cleanse? the healing morph? what does the morph have to do with anything in the fact that purge is basically able to 100% immunize a group? the cost is not the issue, AT all. its the sheer number of purge per second that is the issue, and the fact that even with a cast time or recast increase on the base skill, it will still go as fast as it does.

Purge itself does not immunize you. You still take a lot of damage from the initial hits. If you are purging you are not healing or doing damage(if you are using cleanse at least you are healing), and you can get debuffs stacked on you just as fast as you can purge them off. Seems fair to me.

alright... clearly you have not seen how purge functions in those blob groups...

Not having enough heals is DEFINITLY not a issue in those groups....

And you did not understand what I said lol.

you are saying that taking the clense morph is better because it heals, which those who run the other morph do not do.. and since the ones who purge generally just spam it infinitely (cost reduction + regen) they are not helping out with heals or DPS.

what you did not get, is that those groups already have so much of both healing and DPS that anything from the clense spell is redundant, and because it only procs when it clears a debuff, is generally a waste of mana since you cannot spam that spell infinitely like you can the other morph.

the cost is so massive that it cannot be sustained, and those groups want the sustained because it allows them to completely ignore any CC or DOT that hits them for the most part. in that respect the healing morph will never be a good option..

its not even a better option in small groups... the cost is so high and the restore is lower than the damage generally taken that is caused by the effects removed that healing is still needed in addition. better to have the lower cost there and just pop off a single heal instead.

if you try and use cleanse in a situation where you are a dedicated purge bot... you are the one hurting your group...