PVP Update, June 2015

FENGRUSH

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

if you dont take some bad you will get no good..

this is a major issue,

WRX wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

What happens when one pug spams purge on you?

You report him for botting.

Haha I'm sure that'll help (cough.. blink blink... cough)

Takllin wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

What happens when one pug spams purge on you?

Make it so that the purge only works if you actually have negative effects removed.

What if they purge a burning from fire staffs or any other effect not worthy of being purged with that solution?

Most groups/people would have issues choosing when to purge and when not, so it would mess up better guilds.

Best option Ive seen is make it like power surge (or whatever morph heals) and have it only effect you X amount of seconds. .5 - 1.0 would be nice

Make purge 5s cooldown on the purify but make it a total clearing of all statuses. is that enough? If you dont have a status there is no cooldown is a given. and whats so *** bad about making a group have to think before they purge? that's part of the goal. better than mindlessly spamming. make it like casting barrier, important but requiring timing to make full use out of it

the average blob is purged about ever 0.5 seconds currently... a 0.5 cooldown would do literally nothing for that, and 1s would be almost no improvement since you cast at that rate anyways.. untill you hit 2s there is virtually no point in the cooldown.

I have to completely disagree with your past 2 statements.

A second cooldown on all players hit will still create the same issue. Other groups/pugs purge you and now you are screwed for 5 seconds? This is not fair to the competent players who would use it correctly.

Other option is make purging siege a different alliance skill that operates similar to purge but give it some restriction like every 2-3 seconds.

Assuming you are a solo player just trying to gun down people with siege though, thats the sort of gameplay I find very discouraging. Good group of coordinating people should have the proper defenses to live through siege. And we do.

because Barrier, Rapid Maneuver requring careful use makes them totally worthless... 5s cooldown on the purge effect of purge would just add it to that camp... if some random purges you of one ability thats something you have to deal with just like if you were trying to move in stealth when a random comes and starts spamming springs on you..

5s is barely any time... only slightly longer than a Treb reloading, which is why im suggesting 5s.... if you start getting hammered by siege then you need to move out of the way... blobs can move but seige cant... this is proven any time seige appears to fight a blob in openworld PvP.. it ends up utterly worthless not because of purge but because it doesnt hit anything due to the blobs manuvering.

Purge is most commonly used by those blobs that are attacking a keep, and it enables them to so easily run rampant against any odds that it borders on unfairness to the defenders, rendering nearly any attempt by anything other than another blob pointless.. thats Not healthy for the game AT ALL.

Organized groups dont need to stack to avoid siege generally.. LOS tactics and more are generally enough unless seige gets past the 9+ count. past a certain point stacking needs to be punishable... you cannot have one tactic that so utterly outperforms any other tactic without serious loss in the long run.

people are acting like even a 5s cooldown would make purge pointless but it wouldnt... it would still allow you time to get out of the way of seige, or let you purge away the dots after making a breech attempt.

as long as the cooldown only affects you if you get cleared of an effect i see no problem with "pugs casting purge and screwing my timers"

if it lets blobs die then everyone is better off...

right now its like going bowling but having the pins able to instantly get back up unless you throw another lanes pins at them.

a game that is ONLY for the group is not much of a game... Grouping does need some disadvantages or else people will keep blobspamming

one last note... Purge is only a part of the problem that enables Blobbing.

Dude you just have no clue to be honest.

Purge is strong, not op, but strong. When purging you lose many things like dps, heals (depending) snares, ultis, etc..

There is not a single place in a keep you are not vulnerable to siege, not one. You can wipe all guards easily in an open keep.

You are mentioning keeps not being defended by 9+ siege, what groups are you fighting or playing with? An organized defense has 6 siege up top, 6-10 oils, maybe ballistas on the bottom, and maybe siege hitting the the entire keep from outside (depending on the numbers).

Two things to think about here, why do the best guilds use siege? And how the hell do you think we would get through 12-20 siege with a 5 second cooldown? If you think 5 seconds is short you are not even an occassional PvP player.

If you are one of those players that think siege, since its some big arrow on fire, should be indefensible then I don't know what to tell you. Its another tool to use, just like purge or steel tornado.

Tell you what, message me for my @ name, and we will meet up in game. Sit there for 5 seconds, heal your heart out, and lets see how long you live without purge. You won't

EDIT: And in this bowling scenario, even if 4 people would throw the ball together with some competency the pins would fall. Im going on a limb here, but Im assuming you are a solo player with little to zero organization.

Sorry but you should not stand a chance against 16-20 players who are better, more organized, and more prepared.

Dont tell him he has no clue. Thats being insulting - and hes trying to put forth some effort to reduce ball groups for the sake of lag. Its more than can be said of Decibel currently.

As he said, purge is used by all large groups. They use it while going from point A to point B. This is their way of negating all negative effects that might go through their barrier and cause any bit of harm, which is likely 0. Its negating most of the effect that siege has.

If you think its good gameplay that people effortlessly spam purges without knowing/caring what theyre coming up against, then you are a fool and your opinion has been diminished on this topic. Performance takes a dive when people start purging, even before theyre in combat. Groups just kick it up before they even barrier and charge through a breach, like theyre starting up a godamn lawnmower. Whats the downside to queing up this great strength that kills server performance? None. This skill needs to be revisisted so large groups actually care about charging through siege and pick small windows when they can move from Point A to Point B.

Decibel is what people are complaining about. They move around like a ball. They may not have a full 24 all the time (they have it sometimes), but with their general defensive posturing in group play, they dont need to. Any sense of balling can be done to the same effect past 12+ players, nobody is being a hero by running with 16. AOEs can impact your entire group, but thats ok, because healing is stronger. This style of gameplay is garbage - there is no downside to grouping up, you can automatically receive 50% or 75% damage mitigation from AOEs because you have a certain amount of people around you. The only non-mitigated damage we can use is siege, and then you have purge spam. If they didnt have these terrible AOE caps in, this style of play would go out the window and suddenly players couldnt rely on huge mitigations today that keep their groups alive.

WRX: "You are mentioning keeps not being defended by 9+ siege, what groups are you fighting or playing with? An organized defense has 6 siege up top, 6-10 oils, maybe ballistas on the bottom, and maybe siege hitting the the entire keep from outside (depending on the numbers)."

What groups dont have 9+ siege defending their keep? The groups FENGRUSH plays with dont have 9 extra people in his group with oil and others on ballista. In fact, theres a lot of people that dont have groups that big and theyre trying to voice their concerns here. Try playing DC on the average day and you will find plenty of groups that dont have adequate numbers to defend. Meanwhile theyre fighting low-talent players from your banana alliance that group up at 1:10 odds to push them in the afternoon - in ball group fashion, because this is how theyve been conditioned. And if they just so happen to even out the odds, you get guilds like yours that are fully commit to doubling up the faction numbers and bringing on the zerg with F-U numbers where you can throw strategy to the wayside, rally up, purge and barrier while flooding BoL.

Keep posting in these threads about fixing zergs, FENGRUSH appreciates any voice of reason that will come out and help push ZOS into action on fixing their own game. But dont come and insult folks on the forums when youre playing the way you are today. Split up to groups of 8- people before you do that and by all means, tear into people about purge. At least we could say theres 1 less ball group killing cyrodiil performance.

[snip]

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

if you dont take some bad you will get no good..

this is a major issue,

WRX wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

What happens when one pug spams purge on you?

You report him for botting.

Haha I'm sure that'll help (cough.. blink blink... cough)

Takllin wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

What happens when one pug spams purge on you?

Make it so that the purge only works if you actually have negative effects removed.

What if they purge a burning from fire staffs or any other effect not worthy of being purged with that solution?

Most groups/people would have issues choosing when to purge and when not, so it would mess up better guilds.

Best option Ive seen is make it like power surge (or whatever morph heals) and have it only effect you X amount of seconds. .5 - 1.0 would be nice

Make purge 5s cooldown on the purify but make it a total clearing of all statuses. is that enough? If you dont have a status there is no cooldown is a given. and whats so *** bad about making a group have to think before they purge? that's part of the goal. better than mindlessly spamming. make it like casting barrier, important but requiring timing to make full use out of it

the average blob is purged about ever 0.5 seconds currently... a 0.5 cooldown would do literally nothing for that, and 1s would be almost no improvement since you cast at that rate anyways.. untill you hit 2s there is virtually no point in the cooldown.

I have to completely disagree with your past 2 statements.

A second cooldown on all players hit will still create the same issue. Other groups/pugs purge you and now you are screwed for 5 seconds? This is not fair to the competent players who would use it correctly.

Other option is make purging siege a different alliance skill that operates similar to purge but give it some restriction like every 2-3 seconds.

Assuming you are a solo player just trying to gun down people with siege though, thats the sort of gameplay I find very discouraging. Good group of coordinating people should have the proper defenses to live through siege. And we do.

because Barrier, Rapid Maneuver requring careful use makes them totally worthless... 5s cooldown on the purge effect of purge would just add it to that camp... if some random purges you of one ability thats something you have to deal with just like if you were trying to move in stealth when a random comes and starts spamming springs on you..

5s is barely any time... only slightly longer than a Treb reloading, which is why im suggesting 5s.... if you start getting hammered by siege then you need to move out of the way... blobs can move but seige cant... this is proven any time seige appears to fight a blob in openworld PvP.. it ends up utterly worthless not because of purge but because it doesnt hit anything due to the blobs manuvering.

Purge is most commonly used by those blobs that are attacking a keep, and it enables them to so easily run rampant against any odds that it borders on unfairness to the defenders, rendering nearly any attempt by anything other than another blob pointless.. thats Not healthy for the game AT ALL.

Organized groups dont need to stack to avoid siege generally.. LOS tactics and more are generally enough unless seige gets past the 9+ count. past a certain point stacking needs to be punishable... you cannot have one tactic that so utterly outperforms any other tactic without serious loss in the long run.

people are acting like even a 5s cooldown would make purge pointless but it wouldnt... it would still allow you time to get out of the way of seige, or let you purge away the dots after making a breech attempt.

as long as the cooldown only affects you if you get cleared of an effect i see no problem with "pugs casting purge and screwing my timers"

if it lets blobs die then everyone is better off...

right now its like going bowling but having the pins able to instantly get back up unless you throw another lanes pins at them.

a game that is ONLY for the group is not much of a game... Grouping does need some disadvantages or else people will keep blobspamming

one last note... Purge is only a part of the problem that enables Blobbing.

Im telling you the solution is:

Oil Catapualts and Meatbags no longer Purgeable, Meatbag Heal Debuff can stack twice Leave the base Purge Skill alone.

If you die to a Catapult itself that, that does very little damage, then you should probably quit playing the game.

What does this do?

It means that zergblob can be keep 70% snared 100% of the time. it also means a very substantial healing debuff can be kept on them 100% of the time....now your Fire Ballista's and other siege will be capable of countering/killing them without making siege a one shot cannon. as now their groups healers healing effectiveness has been substaintailly weakened.

Nerfing or messing with the base Purge skill will make the skill useless. any kind of cool down or cast time, and its simply not feasible to use it...


Oil Catapualts and Meatbags no longer Purgeable, Meatbag Heal Debuff can stack twice. You are not giving just anyone a one shot cannon, but what you are doing is giving a smaller organized group, any organized group for that matter, a chance to defend against a zerg and actually make defending a keep viable without a zerg of equal size.

this is the only viable alternative to nerfing purge. the problem here is it originally was not purgable.. then ZOS changed it to make it Purgable.. Old meta had defenders stacking them and spamming them on people going in, which current meta would just see the blob moving through with rapid and barrier. Meatbags would be much more effective vs current meta, at least as long as the blob is slow to use barrier. i do agree that making meatbags unpurgable would be a global punishment tho. but i would accept being unable to heal myself like normal if it stops blobs

I also think that scattershot catapults should have a 1-1.5 second knockdown... on their radius it would be enough that a single person with a timed shot could stop the movement of a blob.. the damage is so minor from Scattershot that once people realize its a scattershot they dont bother dodging anymore.

Honestly we need to be able to CC blobs. the reason i push for a Purge nerf is because it completetly takes CC out of the equation when blobs are involved.

No one in their right mind stands in siege... blobs just get away with it.. nerfing purge would not even be a lasting change... blobs would adapt pretty fast in the end.

Hearing people try and defend blobs at this point reminds me of people who defended old Vr10 batswarming and other things ZOS has nerfed..

also... south park...

Again... reverting oil cata is the worst idea brought up in this thread. The current meta would not see a blob run through with rapid and barriers, it would see them with an almost permanent 70% snare while they have multiple oils and fire ballistas hitting them. You might as well ask everyone to RP walk around cyrodiil because that's what happened when people figured that out.

You can't revert Meatbag either, otherwise I can't play the game the way I want to play since healing becomes completely ineffectual. That's why it was changed in the first place.

The third worst idea brought up in this thread is that purge should be nerfed because people spam it to remove debuffs. Newsflash? People spam EVERY ability. Nerf purge and I'm snared 95% of my pvp time because some DK can spam talons to his hearts content while I can't do a damn thing about it. We're on an even playing field right now. I can be debuffed just as fast as I can spend a large amount of resources to clear them.

Also, siege is a tool to help you, not an I WIN button. Siege is devastating when you actually use it correctly, even against large groups.

There have been numerous people in this thread (and others) that, in the vilification of group play, seem to be grasping for a way to be given for some form of an instant I Win button against the larger groups.

The reasoning being that "everyone knows" that all large groups cause lag, which is bad, so anything that destroys them (no matter how utterly imbalanced it is) is good. There's nary a thought for how this would destroy game balance.

And, frankly, with the amount of obvious contempt that some of the players that prefer solo and small group play are throwing at the large group players, I really don't think they care. So long as they got to zergbust and feel like gods astride a field of bodies.

People arent asking for instant win when they see 24 people balling up. Theyre asking for an option.


Your post is pretty much off-topic and attempts to describe the mindset of these solo / small group players that you are understandably out of touch with. Removal of AOE caps would be a great compromise. Most of this other stuff wouldnt matter that much if 12 players could spread damage evenly across 24 people, instead of doing full damage to just a fraction of their group, while heals prioritize the unfortunate ones that took the most damage. Speaking of balance, how much damage does a barrier absorb when used in a full raid?

Yea, these small group players dont care about balance. They just want to "feel like gods astride a field of bodies". That description pretty much sums up the groups recruiting full raids and showing them the 1 or 2 of skills they will be using all night throughout every fight.


@Manoekin Sorry if it comes off that way. For some reason, FENGRUSH cannot bring himself to hate WRX and his group. However, this is one of the few threads you might find yourself getting replies on issues that have been persistant for a year in cyro. To come in here and voice things that support the large group play is not acceptable. Especially when you take a stance that you want to see changes against them. FENGRUSH stands by his previous statements that large groups flooding purge while having rapids gives them the ability to move from Point A to Point B is too simple and effective. Even if the defenders know exactly whats coming and do their best effort strategically to stop it, theres a good shot they cant without matching numbers and style. If the game doesnt offer mechanics to allow that(strategical play), its boring and you will continue to lose players. Take out keeps, put flags in the open field, and save everyone time siegeing the walls.

[edited to remove quote]

Hypertionb14_ESO

WRXs group is one of only two i reliably see getting ANYTHING done against the red blobs.. there are a few others but it seems that ADs blobs generally mix and match to get at least one running while EP often fields 2-3 across the servers.

AD might have the highest overall population, but comapired to the number of organized blobs EP has that reliably turn up AD is actually pretty sorely lacking organization..

DC does have some groups too, but lack the base population to support it.

EP has the most blobs overall, and when they are all running at the same time its basically a turn off to PvP in general...

overall i just am sick of blobs being the only viable methoid... the game is fun and there is zero lag untill a true blob turns up... then its basically GG for the day.

i help out AD blobs when i can... i pop on my team only spec and spam my AOEs... mostly because i want to actually help out with winning.. I have a much more extensive Trail background so stacking comes really easily to me.

i just wish there were other ways to win a campaign besides STACK ON CROWN.

i will no deny i use the options available (save things like teleporting through doors and such) I want to win just like anyone else.. but i wont let the game die just for my own personal wants...

Erwen

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

WRXs group is one of only two i reliably see getting ANYTHING done against the red blobs.. there are a few others but it seems that ADs blobs generally mix and match to get at least one running while EP often fields 2-3 across the servers.

AD might have the highest overall population, but comapired to the number of organized blobs EP has that reliably turn up AD is actually pretty sorely lacking organization..

DC does have some groups too, but lack the base population to support it.

EP has the most blobs overall, and when they are all running at the same time its basically a turn off to PvP in general...

overall i just am sick of blobs being the only viable methoid... the game is fun and there is zero lag untill a true blob turns up... then its basically GG for the day.

i help out AD blobs when i can... i pop on my team only spec and spam my AOEs... mostly because i want to actually help out with winning.. I have a much more extensive Trail background so stacking comes really easily to me.

i just wish there were other ways to win a campaign besides STACK ON CROWN.

i will no deny i use the options available (save things like teleporting through doors and such) I want to win just like anyone else.. but i wont let the game die just for my own personal wants...

HAHAHAHAHAH my god... wrx group only "works" cus almost everytime he lags out the server moving with his 2 raids

Preyfar

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

OMG it will help with lag too, why didnt they think of this, no caps means no second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth. damn calculations becaus the third hit hits these guys for 60% and the 6th hit hits theys guys for 30%. it will all register full damage 1 time, zomg the humanity.

could the fix to this lag really be as simple as that. what!!!!!! wow. epiphany for the combat team. can they do it, can they pull it off. will they end the lag?

While nice, it's not going to stop groups that just instantly fire off 3-4 purges and then heal. Siege is useless against an organized group, and even most pug groups can just purge it away without much thought.

Agrippa_Invisus

Preyfar wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

OMG it will help with lag too, why didnt they think of this, no caps means no second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth. damn calculations becaus the third hit hits these guys for 60% and the 6th hit hits theys guys for 30%. it will all register full damage 1 time, zomg the humanity.

could the fix to this lag really be as simple as that. what!!!!!! wow. epiphany for the combat team. can they do it, can they pull it off. will they end the lag?

While nice, it's not going to stop groups that just instantly fire off 3-4 purges and then heal. Siege is useless against an organized group, and even most pug groups can just purge it away without much thought.

Siege is a force multiplier, not an answer in itself.

Siege weaponry, especially the cold fire stuff, can shave multiple members of a pain train off the group if the timing is good. But that requires some coordination and some good timing. It is especially painful for the pain train team inside of a keep (especially the inner ring style keeps) due to the tight confines and oft inability to escape the red circles.

Once members of the team start to die, especially if it's healers, they will noticably weaken. Many of the group builds sacrifice durability or self sustain for extremely hard hitting initial and aoe damage.

And rez. Constant rezzing behind the pain train as it moves past, acting as your own force multiplier, makes it very hard for the pain train to clean out a keep.

The pain train puts out immense damage /right where it is/ and in no other place, typically.

If you want to know how to fight a pain train, to break it with siege and good tactics, go talk to Grunt. I've seen his group do it. It takes time and effort, and lots of siege and soul gems, but it's definitely possible.

Reverb

Erwen wrote: »

HAHAHAHAHAH my god... wrx group only "works" cus almost everytime he lags out the server moving with his 2 raids

I don't know about that, as DC I go up against W'R'X and Decibel regularly (though less than we used to) and have far fewer lag and other issues in those battles than we do when a certain EP guild is on the scene. Or even just nearby...

CatchMeTrolling

How about changing the name on the leaderboards to your gamertag instead of your characters name which no one sees?

Manoekin

Erwen wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

WRXs group is one of only two i reliably see getting ANYTHING done against the red blobs.. there are a few others but it seems that ADs blobs generally mix and match to get at least one running while EP often fields 2-3 across the servers.

AD might have the highest overall population, but comapired to the number of organized blobs EP has that reliably turn up AD is actually pretty sorely lacking organization..

DC does have some groups too, but lack the base population to support it.

EP has the most blobs overall, and when they are all running at the same time its basically a turn off to PvP in general...

overall i just am sick of blobs being the only viable methoid... the game is fun and there is zero lag untill a true blob turns up... then its basically GG for the day.

i help out AD blobs when i can... i pop on my team only spec and spam my AOEs... mostly because i want to actually help out with winning.. I have a much more extensive Trail background so stacking comes really easily to me.

i just wish there were other ways to win a campaign besides STACK ON CROWN.

i will no deny i use the options available (save things like teleporting through doors and such) I want to win just like anyone else.. but i wont let the game die just for my own personal wants...

HAHAHAHAHAH my god... wrx group only "works" cus almost everytime he lags out the server moving with his 2 raids

Like those two raids of Havoc we ran into at Chalman, and Aleswell last night.

Or were those pugs? I don't think so cause they were stacked in a small area with you guys behind the hill north of Chalman. Right? Right? /sarcasm

Maybe Aleswell wasn't your fault, since it was another guilds' 24 members that ran in after we had engaged you at the breach. God forbid anyone else does that though for we feel the wrath of half your members rage telling why we are "stacking guilds" to take keeps... I've never seen that happen more than on EP.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

WRX

Erwen wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

WRXs group is one of only two i reliably see getting ANYTHING done against the red blobs.. there are a few others but it seems that ADs blobs generally mix and match to get at least one running while EP often fields 2-3 across the servers.

AD might have the highest overall population, but comapired to the number of organized blobs EP has that reliably turn up AD is actually pretty sorely lacking organization..

DC does have some groups too, but lack the base population to support it.

EP has the most blobs overall, and when they are all running at the same time its basically a turn off to PvP in general...

overall i just am sick of blobs being the only viable methoid... the game is fun and there is zero lag untill a true blob turns up... then its basically GG for the day.

i help out AD blobs when i can... i pop on my team only spec and spam my AOEs... mostly because i want to actually help out with winning.. I have a much more extensive Trail background so stacking comes really easily to me.

i just wish there were other ways to win a campaign besides STACK ON CROWN.

i will no deny i use the options available (save things like teleporting through doors and such) I want to win just like anyone else.. but i wont let the game die just for my own personal wants...

HAHAHAHAHAH my god... wrx group only "works" cus almost everytime he lags out the server moving with his 2 raids

[snip] You guys did pretty decent.

[edited for trolling]

Sublime

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

c0rp wrote: »

AoE cap needs to be fully, 100% removed from game. I'd really like to see how this one single change, impacts the zerg ball strat.

The fact that a dozen people can stand in a barn and withstand 20 siege firing into the barn all at once without taking losses is lol, I am sorry.

Wouldn't change it one lick with organized groups . Sieging an organized enemy already set up to bubble/heal/cleanse stuff off inside and jostle around the edges your siege isn't hitting doesn't do much now, nor would it later. AOE heals would counter AOE damage just as well as it does now with caps removed on both .

That's exactly why I'd suggest to remove all AOE caps on offensive abilities (meaning damage and CC), while leaving the caps for healing abilites at three.

Detailed explanation:

Assuming a 24-man group AOE caps reduce all incoming AOE damage by 62.5% and CC by 75%. Yes the player actually deals more damage for his ressources spent and probably also puts out more CC, but for each additional player above 6 in the AOE, the bombsquad gets additional group effectiveness with the value of 1 player while attacker on deals additional damage for 0.5 players and CC for zero. Meaning the bombsquads gets more group effectivenes than it becomes vulnearble to enemy players.

FENGRUSH

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

2) @ZOS_BrianWheeler has not addressed the issue of zergballs, or armies as you like to call them for a game designed to have armies. Its nobodies place to say how you should play or what you want to do, but there need to be fair mechanics in play that allow others to have a fair shake at countering your army. If people are going to group into a tight formation and abuse mechanics such as 50/75% damage mitigation through AOE caps, what is the solution to offset this? Heals arent reduced by 50-75% for big groups, their barriers arent, the purges arent. Not suggesting we should go that route - back to square 1 with removal of AOE caps. If people want to bunch, they can stand together and die together on fair ground.

Please keep in mind, anything related to abilities, skill lines, combat, and the balance thereof does not fall under Brian's or the PVP team's purview. That's the Combat team. They do work closely together, but they're different teams who have completely different responsibilities.

Thank you @ZOS_JessicaFolsom . FENGRUSH is aware of this setup. However the issues are intertwined a bit here, but this is an Eric W thing. But where can we discuss these topics with him or his team? If we cannot, do we simply hold our thoughts? The closest thing we can get to is speaking with B-Wheels.

Would be more than happy to discuss lots of the PVP skills affecting performance in cyro. We know theyre 'looking at them' and 'working on solutions for performance'. But nobody actually hears from the skills team, and as far as balance and performance go, those are the immediate issues people have problems with (and for the most part always have/will).

Manoekin

FENGRUSH wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

2) @ZOS_BrianWheeler has not addressed the issue of zergballs, or armies as you like to call them for a game designed to have armies. Its nobodies place to say how you should play or what you want to do, but there need to be fair mechanics in play that allow others to have a fair shake at countering your army. If people are going to group into a tight formation and abuse mechanics such as 50/75% damage mitigation through AOE caps, what is the solution to offset this? Heals arent reduced by 50-75% for big groups, their barriers arent, the purges arent. Not suggesting we should go that route - back to square 1 with removal of AOE caps. If people want to bunch, they can stand together and die together on fair ground.

Please keep in mind, anything related to abilities, skill lines, combat, and the balance thereof does not fall under Brian's or the PVP team's purview. That's the Combat team. They do work closely together, but they're different teams who have completely different responsibilities.

Thank you @ZOS_JessicaFolsom . FENGRUSH is aware of this setup. However the issues are intertwined a bit here, but this is an Eric W thing. But where can we discuss these topics with him or his team? If we cannot, do we simply hold our thoughts? The closest thing we can get to is speaking with B-Wheels.

Would be more than happy to discuss lots of the PVP skills affecting performance in cyro. We know theyre 'looking at them' and 'working on solutions for performance'. But nobody actually hears from the skills team, and as far as balance and performance go, those are the immediate issues people have problems with (and for the most part always have/will).

There is a combat forum, but people mostly only talk builds. The only people talking about bugs on that section are Templars. Maybe @ZOS_JessicaFolsom could get Eric to swing by here sometime :P

maxjapank

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Yea, these small group players dont care about balance. They just want to "feel like gods astride a field of bodies". That description pretty much sums up the groups recruiting full raids and showing them the 1 or 2 of skills they will be using all night throughout every fight.

There is really no difference between a small group of 4, a medium-sized group of 12, or a larger group of 24 wanting to beat twice their numbers. The feeling is the same. But this game was advertised as large-scale battles and we are taking keeps, which portrays an "army" sieging.

But this thinking of players only using 1 or 2 skills, at least in regards to Decibel is just not true. I bet every member wishes they could have one more skill slot for something else. Don't you? I use everything on my bars, some more than others, but nothing is wasted.

FENGRUSH

maxjapank wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Yea, these small group players dont care about balance. They just want to "feel like gods astride a field of bodies". That description pretty much sums up the groups recruiting full raids and showing them the 1 or 2 of skills they will be using all night throughout every fight.

There is really no difference between a small group of 4, a medium-sized group of 12, or a larger group of 24 wanting to beat twice their numbers. The feeling is the same. But this game was advertised as large-scale battles and we are taking keeps, which portrays an "army" sieging.

But this thinking of players only using 1 or 2 skills, at least in regards to Decibel is just not true. I bet every member wishes they could have one more skill slot for something else. Don't you? I use everything on my bars, some more than others, but nothing is wasted.

Manoekin wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

2) @ZOS_BrianWheeler has not addressed the issue of zergballs, or armies as you like to call them for a game designed to have armies. Its nobodies place to say how you should play or what you want to do, but there need to be fair mechanics in play that allow others to have a fair shake at countering your army. If people are going to group into a tight formation and abuse mechanics such as 50/75% damage mitigation through AOE caps, what is the solution to offset this? Heals arent reduced by 50-75% for big groups, their barriers arent, the purges arent. Not suggesting we should go that route - back to square 1 with removal of AOE caps. If people want to bunch, they can stand together and die together on fair ground.

Please keep in mind, anything related to abilities, skill lines, combat, and the balance thereof does not fall under Brian's or the PVP team's purview. That's the Combat team. They do work closely together, but they're different teams who have completely different responsibilities.

Thank you @ZOS_JessicaFolsom . FENGRUSH is aware of this setup. However the issues are intertwined a bit here, but this is an Eric W thing. But where can we discuss these topics with him or his team? If we cannot, do we simply hold our thoughts? The closest thing we can get to is speaking with B-Wheels.

Would be more than happy to discuss lots of the PVP skills affecting performance in cyro. We know theyre 'looking at them' and 'working on solutions for performance'. But nobody actually hears from the skills team, and as far as balance and performance go, those are the immediate issues people have problems with (and for the most part always have/will).

There is a combat forum, but people mostly only talk builds. The only people talking about bugs on that section are Templars. Maybe @ZOS_JessicaFolsom could get Eric to swing by here sometime :P

Yep, been there, been directed there - its void any sort of oversight from ZOS. Would be great to get a line of communication going if opinions were considered.

maxjapank wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Yea, these small group players dont care about balance. They just want to "feel like gods astride a field of bodies". That description pretty much sums up the groups recruiting full raids and showing them the 1 or 2 of skills they will be using all night throughout every fight.

There is really no difference between a small group of 4, a medium-sized group of 12, or a larger group of 24 wanting to beat twice their numbers. The feeling is the same. But this game was advertised as large-scale battles and we are taking keeps, which portrays an "army" sieging.

But this thinking of players only using 1 or 2 skills, at least in regards to Decibel is just not true. I bet every member wishes they could have one more skill slot for something else. Don't you? I use everything on my bars, some more than others, but nothing is wasted.

In all cases, the numbers difference is very relevant when considering AOE caps though. If youre distributing against double your size, caps gradually hurt you more and more. People should have a fighting chance. If 2 people fight 12 of equal skill level, the 12 should win. They dont need 50%+ damage mitigation (before factoring their personal mitigation) to help them fight the 2 players off.

As far as players using 1 or 2 skills, this is likely true for a lot. Theres of course much better players in these groups that make a full use of both bars with some redundancy for convenience. Because the reality is, they have to stick with crown and not every skill youd normally use is going to fit into that style at all.

People can play how they want. When fighting against the odds, you shouldnt be punished furthermore because players died to DK vamp emps endlessly when the game was released. But thats where weve come from and how we arrived at bad performance with built-in handicaps that favor the side that brings more people.

Morvul

@ZOS_BrianWheeler , in my opinion the Lag-causing "zergballs" (stack-on-crown groups, blobs, whatever) are a self-amplifying problem in cyrodiil:

1) for various game-balance reasons, playing in a tightly stacked group is the most efficient way to play
(so heals always hit the ones who need them most, AoE skills are damage-mitigated anyway - even when they hit more players then 6, everyone in the stack can benefit from frequent barriers and purge-spam protects against much of the dangers from siege-weapons)

2) lots of players stacking up tightly overwhelms the servers, since the calculation load increases more or less exponentially with the number of players within each-others AoE range

3) The thus resulting lag effects the "zergball" less severely then non-balled up groups trying to counter the stacked up players: The zerg-ball uses almost exclusively instant cast skills, which tend to execute from time to time even in high-lag situations. People countering the "stackers" from range need to use either ranged-AoE skills, or siege:
during lag, siege has a high tendency of bugging out and refusing to be interactable. Even when siege is working per se during lag, the "zergballers" purge-spam makes "staggered" siege fire almost useless, only the initial damage counte, the DoT never happens due to purge - the ball needs to be hit with multiple siege weapons at the same second to actually be hurt. This simply does not work during lag, when it may take 1 or 10 seconds for my siegeweapon to actually respond to the fire command.
As for ranged AoE skills: all of them either have a cast-time, or are ground-targeted. Both of those skill-types are executed much, much less reliably during lag then instant cast skills.

--> we therefor end up in the current situation, that the one play style which is already very difficult to counter when the servers manage to cope is simultaneously overwhelming the servers and thereby neutralizing most of the theoretical counters - thus giving even more incentive to follow that "stack up on crown" playstyle


cyrodiil would therefor need:
a) incentives for players to not stack up
b) counters to stacked up players that actually work during the lag caused by stacked up players

Makkir

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Keep posting in these threads about fixing zergs, FENGRUSH appreciates any voice of reason that will come out and help push ZOS into action on fixing their own game. But dont come and insult folks on the forums when youre playing the way you are today. Split up to groups of 8- people before you do that and by all means, tear into people about purge. At least we could say theres 1 less ball group killing cyrodiil performance.

@FENGRUSH
To be honest I always thought you were kind of a weirdo talking in the 3rd person all the time, but I gained a whole new level of respect for you today. +1 Bro


And @Agrippa_Invisus I think the majority of the bitterness towards zergballs is the performance issues it causes, not really to "feel like gods among bodies." We all signed up for AvA combat after all. I am sure if performance were fixed 100% some would still complain about zerg balls though. I just think the core argument gets masked a lot behind the "blame zergballs" posts.

Tendrielle

I am not happy with removing the former emperor buffs. Small as they are, they were my incentive to actually take holidays of my work to become one. At least I would like some sort of recompensation, would I be stripped of my former emperor skills.

Another way of discouraging emperor swapping would be strengthening existing emperors. Currently you are rewarded for becoming an emperor, but not for staying one. There could be achievements for staying emperor 1,3,5 whole days or until the end of the campaign, for instance. You could even grow in power (in pvp only) with time, maybe. There shouldn't be added anything new for PvE, of course.

Farorin

Tendrielle wrote: »

I am not happy with removing the former emperor buffs. Small as they are, they were my incentive to actually take holidays of my work to become one. At least I would like some sort of recompensation, would I be stripped of my former emperor skills.

Another way of discouraging emperor swapping would be strengthening existing emperors. Currently you are rewarded for becoming an emperor, but not for staying one. There could be achievements for staying emperor 1,3,5 whole days or until the end of the campaign, for instance. You could even grow in power (in pvp only) with time, maybe. There shouldn't be added anything new for PvE, of course.

So your solution to stop emperor farming is to make emps even more powerful and brokenly OP? Somehow I see that would open a whole different can of worms.

frozywozy

Manoekin wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

if you dont take some bad you will get no good..

this is a major issue,

WRX wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

What happens when one pug spams purge on you?

You report him for botting.

Haha I'm sure that'll help (cough.. blink blink... cough)

Takllin wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

What happens when one pug spams purge on you?

Make it so that the purge only works if you actually have negative effects removed.

What if they purge a burning from fire staffs or any other effect not worthy of being purged with that solution?

Most groups/people would have issues choosing when to purge and when not, so it would mess up better guilds.

Best option Ive seen is make it like power surge (or whatever morph heals) and have it only effect you X amount of seconds. .5 - 1.0 would be nice

Make purge 5s cooldown on the purify but make it a total clearing of all statuses. is that enough? If you dont have a status there is no cooldown is a given. and whats so *** bad about making a group have to think before they purge? that's part of the goal. better than mindlessly spamming. make it like casting barrier, important but requiring timing to make full use out of it

the average blob is purged about ever 0.5 seconds currently... a 0.5 cooldown would do literally nothing for that, and 1s would be almost no improvement since you cast at that rate anyways.. untill you hit 2s there is virtually no point in the cooldown.

I have to completely disagree with your past 2 statements.

A second cooldown on all players hit will still create the same issue. Other groups/pugs purge you and now you are screwed for 5 seconds? This is not fair to the competent players who would use it correctly.

Other option is make purging siege a different alliance skill that operates similar to purge but give it some restriction like every 2-3 seconds.

Assuming you are a solo player just trying to gun down people with siege though, thats the sort of gameplay I find very discouraging. Good group of coordinating people should have the proper defenses to live through siege. And we do.

because Barrier, Rapid Maneuver requring careful use makes them totally worthless... 5s cooldown on the purge effect of purge would just add it to that camp... if some random purges you of one ability thats something you have to deal with just like if you were trying to move in stealth when a random comes and starts spamming springs on you..

5s is barely any time... only slightly longer than a Treb reloading, which is why im suggesting 5s.... if you start getting hammered by siege then you need to move out of the way... blobs can move but seige cant... this is proven any time seige appears to fight a blob in openworld PvP.. it ends up utterly worthless not because of purge but because it doesnt hit anything due to the blobs manuvering.

Purge is most commonly used by those blobs that are attacking a keep, and it enables them to so easily run rampant against any odds that it borders on unfairness to the defenders, rendering nearly any attempt by anything other than another blob pointless.. thats Not healthy for the game AT ALL.

Organized groups dont need to stack to avoid siege generally.. LOS tactics and more are generally enough unless seige gets past the 9+ count. past a certain point stacking needs to be punishable... you cannot have one tactic that so utterly outperforms any other tactic without serious loss in the long run.

people are acting like even a 5s cooldown would make purge pointless but it wouldnt... it would still allow you time to get out of the way of seige, or let you purge away the dots after making a breech attempt.

as long as the cooldown only affects you if you get cleared of an effect i see no problem with "pugs casting purge and screwing my timers"

if it lets blobs die then everyone is better off...

right now its like going bowling but having the pins able to instantly get back up unless you throw another lanes pins at them.

a game that is ONLY for the group is not much of a game... Grouping does need some disadvantages or else people will keep blobspamming

one last note... Purge is only a part of the problem that enables Blobbing.

Dude you just have no clue to be honest.

Purge is strong, not op, but strong. When purging you lose many things like dps, heals (depending) snares, ultis, etc..

There is not a single place in a keep you are not vulnerable to siege, not one. You can wipe all guards easily in an open keep.

You are mentioning keeps not being defended by 9+ siege, what groups are you fighting or playing with? An organized defense has 6 siege up top, 6-10 oils, maybe ballistas on the bottom, and maybe siege hitting the the entire keep from outside (depending on the numbers).

Two things to think about here, why do the best guilds use siege? And how the hell do you think we would get through 12-20 siege with a 5 second cooldown? If you think 5 seconds is short you are not even an occassional PvP player.

If you are one of those players that think siege, since its some big arrow on fire, should be indefensible then I don't know what to tell you. Its another tool to use, just like purge or steel tornado.

Tell you what, message me for my @ name, and we will meet up in game. Sit there for 5 seconds, heal your heart out, and lets see how long you live without purge. You won't

EDIT: And in this bowling scenario, even if 4 people would throw the ball together with some competency the pins would fall. Im going on a limb here, but Im assuming you are a solo player with little to zero organization.

Sorry but you should not stand a chance against 16-20 players who are better, more organized, and more prepared.

Dont tell him he has no clue. Thats being insulting - and hes trying to put forth some effort to reduce ball groups for the sake of lag. Its more than can be said of Decibel currently.

As he said, purge is used by all large groups. They use it while going from point A to point B. This is their way of negating all negative effects that might go through their barrier and cause any bit of harm, which is likely 0. Its negating most of the effect that siege has.

If you think its good gameplay that people effortlessly spam purges without knowing/caring what theyre coming up against, then you are a fool and your opinion has been diminished on this topic. Performance takes a dive when people start purging, even before theyre in combat. Groups just kick it up before they even barrier and charge through a breach, like theyre starting up a godamn lawnmower. Whats the downside to queing up this great strength that kills server performance? None. This skill needs to be revisisted so large groups actually care about charging through siege and pick small windows when they can move from Point A to Point B.

Decibel is what people are complaining about. They move around like a ball. They may not have a full 24 all the time (they have it sometimes), but with their general defensive posturing in group play, they dont need to. Any sense of balling can be done to the same effect past 12+ players, nobody is being a hero by running with 16. AOEs can impact your entire group, but thats ok, because healing is stronger. This style of gameplay is garbage - there is no downside to grouping up, you can automatically receive 50% or 75% damage mitigation from AOEs because you have a certain amount of people around you. The only non-mitigated damage we can use is siege, and then you have purge spam. If they didnt have these terrible AOE caps in, this style of play would go out the window and suddenly players couldnt rely on huge mitigations today that keep their groups alive.

WRX: "You are mentioning keeps not being defended by 9+ siege, what groups are you fighting or playing with? An organized defense has 6 siege up top, 6-10 oils, maybe ballistas on the bottom, and maybe siege hitting the the entire keep from outside (depending on the numbers)."

What groups dont have 9+ siege defending their keep? The groups FENGRUSH plays with dont have 9 extra people in his group with oil and others on ballista. In fact, theres a lot of people that dont have groups that big and theyre trying to voice their concerns here. Try playing DC on the average day and you will find plenty of groups that dont have adequate numbers to defend. Meanwhile theyre fighting low-talent players from your banana alliance that group up at 1:10 odds to push them in the afternoon - in ball group fashion, because this is how theyve been conditioned. And if they just so happen to even out the odds, you get guilds like yours that are fully commit to doubling up the faction numbers and bringing on the zerg with F-U numbers where you can throw strategy to the wayside, rally up, purge and barrier while flooding BoL.

Keep posting in these threads about fixing zergs, FENGRUSH appreciates any voice of reason that will come out and help push ZOS into action on fixing their own game. But dont come and insult folks on the forums when youre playing the way you are today. Split up to groups of 8- people before you do that and by all means, tear into people about purge. At least we could say theres 1 less ball group killing cyrodiil performance.

[snip]

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

if you dont take some bad you will get no good..

this is a major issue,

WRX wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

What happens when one pug spams purge on you?

You report him for botting.

Haha I'm sure that'll help (cough.. blink blink... cough)

Takllin wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

What happens when one pug spams purge on you?

Make it so that the purge only works if you actually have negative effects removed.

What if they purge a burning from fire staffs or any other effect not worthy of being purged with that solution?

Most groups/people would have issues choosing when to purge and when not, so it would mess up better guilds.

Best option Ive seen is make it like power surge (or whatever morph heals) and have it only effect you X amount of seconds. .5 - 1.0 would be nice

Make purge 5s cooldown on the purify but make it a total clearing of all statuses. is that enough? If you dont have a status there is no cooldown is a given. and whats so *** bad about making a group have to think before they purge? that's part of the goal. better than mindlessly spamming. make it like casting barrier, important but requiring timing to make full use out of it

the average blob is purged about ever 0.5 seconds currently... a 0.5 cooldown would do literally nothing for that, and 1s would be almost no improvement since you cast at that rate anyways.. untill you hit 2s there is virtually no point in the cooldown.

I have to completely disagree with your past 2 statements.

A second cooldown on all players hit will still create the same issue. Other groups/pugs purge you and now you are screwed for 5 seconds? This is not fair to the competent players who would use it correctly.

Other option is make purging siege a different alliance skill that operates similar to purge but give it some restriction like every 2-3 seconds.

Assuming you are a solo player just trying to gun down people with siege though, thats the sort of gameplay I find very discouraging. Good group of coordinating people should have the proper defenses to live through siege. And we do.

because Barrier, Rapid Maneuver requring careful use makes them totally worthless... 5s cooldown on the purge effect of purge would just add it to that camp... if some random purges you of one ability thats something you have to deal with just like if you were trying to move in stealth when a random comes and starts spamming springs on you..

5s is barely any time... only slightly longer than a Treb reloading, which is why im suggesting 5s.... if you start getting hammered by siege then you need to move out of the way... blobs can move but seige cant... this is proven any time seige appears to fight a blob in openworld PvP.. it ends up utterly worthless not because of purge but because it doesnt hit anything due to the blobs manuvering.

Purge is most commonly used by those blobs that are attacking a keep, and it enables them to so easily run rampant against any odds that it borders on unfairness to the defenders, rendering nearly any attempt by anything other than another blob pointless.. thats Not healthy for the game AT ALL.

Organized groups dont need to stack to avoid siege generally.. LOS tactics and more are generally enough unless seige gets past the 9+ count. past a certain point stacking needs to be punishable... you cannot have one tactic that so utterly outperforms any other tactic without serious loss in the long run.

people are acting like even a 5s cooldown would make purge pointless but it wouldnt... it would still allow you time to get out of the way of seige, or let you purge away the dots after making a breech attempt.

as long as the cooldown only affects you if you get cleared of an effect i see no problem with "pugs casting purge and screwing my timers"

if it lets blobs die then everyone is better off...

right now its like going bowling but having the pins able to instantly get back up unless you throw another lanes pins at them.

a game that is ONLY for the group is not much of a game... Grouping does need some disadvantages or else people will keep blobspamming

one last note... Purge is only a part of the problem that enables Blobbing.

Im telling you the solution is:

Oil Catapualts and Meatbags no longer Purgeable, Meatbag Heal Debuff can stack twice Leave the base Purge Skill alone.

If you die to a Catapult itself that, that does very little damage, then you should probably quit playing the game.

What does this do?

It means that zergblob can be keep 70% snared 100% of the time. it also means a very substantial healing debuff can be kept on them 100% of the time....now your Fire Ballista's and other siege will be capable of countering/killing them without making siege a one shot cannon. as now their groups healers healing effectiveness has been substaintailly weakened.

Nerfing or messing with the base Purge skill will make the skill useless. any kind of cool down or cast time, and its simply not feasible to use it...


Oil Catapualts and Meatbags no longer Purgeable, Meatbag Heal Debuff can stack twice. You are not giving just anyone a one shot cannon, but what you are doing is giving a smaller organized group, any organized group for that matter, a chance to defend against a zerg and actually make defending a keep viable without a zerg of equal size.

this is the only viable alternative to nerfing purge. the problem here is it originally was not purgable.. then ZOS changed it to make it Purgable.. Old meta had defenders stacking them and spamming them on people going in, which current meta would just see the blob moving through with rapid and barrier. Meatbags would be much more effective vs current meta, at least as long as the blob is slow to use barrier. i do agree that making meatbags unpurgable would be a global punishment tho. but i would accept being unable to heal myself like normal if it stops blobs

I also think that scattershot catapults should have a 1-1.5 second knockdown... on their radius it would be enough that a single person with a timed shot could stop the movement of a blob.. the damage is so minor from Scattershot that once people realize its a scattershot they dont bother dodging anymore.

Honestly we need to be able to CC blobs. the reason i push for a Purge nerf is because it completetly takes CC out of the equation when blobs are involved.

No one in their right mind stands in siege... blobs just get away with it.. nerfing purge would not even be a lasting change... blobs would adapt pretty fast in the end.

Hearing people try and defend blobs at this point reminds me of people who defended old Vr10 batswarming and other things ZOS has nerfed..

also... south park...

Also, siege is a tool to help you, not an I WIN button. Siege is devastating when you actually use it correctly, even against large groups.

[edited to remove quote]

Publius_Scipio

Makkir wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Keep posting in these threads about fixing zergs, FENGRUSH appreciates any voice of reason that will come out and help push ZOS into action on fixing their own game. But dont come and insult folks on the forums when youre playing the way you are today. Split up to groups of 8- people before you do that and by all means, tear into people about purge. At least we could say theres 1 less ball group killing cyrodiil performance.

@FENGRUSH
To be honest I always thought you were kind of a weirdo talking in the 3rd person all the time, but I gained a whole new level of respect for you today. +1 Bro

This made me lol.

Frenkthevile

Siege is useless agains players because it has a range that is TOO SHORT. By the time you reload a ballista, the Zergball has already overrun your position.
And we're not even speaking of bolt escape Zergs, that can skip a whole siege's fire barrage...

Zyle

Crown wrote: »

bchulettub17_ESO wrote: »

I'm insanely confused on your stance. You guys are rotating leaderboards on Azuras on purpose to crown emp...emp farming. In fact, AT THIS MOMENT, an ad guild is about to pvdoor crown YOU emp. You guys are part of the problem by doing that nonsense. DC on Azuras are desperately trying to get emp, in fact 9/10 people on the leaderboard, have never had emp, where almost EVERY person on the AD/EP leaderboards have had emp, if not multiple times. I'm not gonna sit here and take your comments seriously when you are part of the direct problem.

I've been emp more than a few times. An AD guild crowned me this morning, and I'll play as Emperor this evening until red comes with an 80 person zerg and lag flips the last keep. The exact same thing that has happend the last three times I've been emperor.

Most on the board have been emp once or twice. Why? They're all my group mates or people I run with in other guilds who all know how to get points. Making points is not cheating, and most of the time we're working for the betterment of the campaign, though at times we'll sit and kill (farm) any opponents who come to us at a contested location.

Without a few other guilds participating in this campaign (Decibel often does though hasn't been running a lot lately), if I didn't step down (drop campaign) or play an alt, it is excessively unlikely that more than a handful of other players could pass me on the leader board (if I'm trying to make points). This is a fact, and has been proven over the past ten campaigns. I often move away from ticks, don't get the delve boss buff when others do, and sometimes play an alt so that other people can have the fun (and passives) of being emp. Do you want only one person of each faction to ever be emperor? I certainly don't. When I'm emperor I feel obliged to stay in the campaign and defend it. No matter how long I keep it. I'd much rather not have to worry about it and just play without the constant whispers and whining of people demanding things. At the same time, I want to make points and advance the PvP rank of my group (alliance 24 / skill rank 10) to make them more powerful, and I'm well along the way to my goal of Legate (about 6 million AP away).

It seems to me that most of the people who are complaining are the ones who have never been emperor nor are they likely to without the help and cooperation of people like me. Yes, I do have an ego, though in this case most people will agree that I've proven myself as the leader of a group who can make more AP than most others.

If DC are trying to get emp, let them come out and fight. In the past few days I've seen some great groups on their own (NPK and one other who I never learned the name of). A second group coordinating at different locations on the map and they would have crowned a few times by now.

So tell me, how will removing the former emperor buffs change anything for you? Will that stop me from making points? Not at all. Will it make me want to help you get emperor for a pretty colour and title? Not at all. What incentive does it give people to change their activities? None at all. The only thing that will change is you'll have a select few people who keep emperor to themselves all the time as opposed to helping other good people to get it and achieve one more little thing in the game. Right now, the passives make me WANT to help everyone who has not gotten it achieve it. Without the passives, there's no value in it, and no incentive for more people to come into PvP with that as a goal.

If you were a new player, and came to me asking to join the guild and group, and asked for my advice on how to achieve Emperor, I would happily spend a few minutes assuring that you're either a competent player and/or able to learn. I would spend time helping you make/farm the best sets of optimized gear for your build - and to determine what build would best support the group. If you played with the group consistently as of a campaign reset, you'd be on the leader board. If there were some of us ahead of you when we were about to crown, then most of us would drop campaign for you. Why? Because we're good people who want to help others become the best that they can and achieve things that will help them and help the group in future.

You may hate me due to jealousy or because you're in another faction and I've led the group that wiped you a few hundred times (or you were one of the ten people that I spent about a half hour killing over and over at Warden yesterday), though as we see it, that's not a reason to hate. @Methuselah has wiped my group about twice as often as we've wiped his. I consider him an honoured opponent, and we chat at times. ShadowStep has killed me more often than anyone else - he's one of the better NB gankers and targets a single individual before stealthing away. When I wanted to learn more about how he does so, I asked, and we spent about 20 minutes discussing strategy in TS. I believe I taught him something interesting, and I learned a lot from him. He's someone I hate running into in game (as I'm dead before I know he's there), but I respect his skill as a player and appreciate learning something every time he kills me.

It would be nice to have a pop locked population. You see, I don't have any respect for you, or any of the AD on Azuras Star. You guys are...cheap. Yep, cheap. AD early morning caps when noone is on, runs from a fair fight, and returns with 4:1 or 5:1 advantages to win any fight.

I'm not saying making points is cheating, I'm saying hogging the leaderboards so that no one new can get emp is the exact reason why they're removing former emp buffs. You and your crew make competing for emp not fun, and an overall chore. The part that really makes me mad, is you guys don't deserve it. You get emp with numbers, not skill. You get emp because DC is 1 bar the majority of the time, and all you have to do is zerg when EP isn't awake.

You make yourself out to be some martyr, but all I see is choosing the easy server and run from the server with competition.
" Do you want only one person of each faction to ever be emperor? I certainly don't." <-- made me laugh for about 5 minutes straight. It's apparent you want the same AD crew to be emperor over and over again, or give it to people who DON'T deserve it through nightcapping/early morning capping. I'm not gonna take anything you say seriously about this subject because you're constantly flipping emp for people who don't deserve it through pure zerg.

You want to advance your crews PVP rank? How about advance your screws ability to play. ZERGING a server will not develop skill, in fact the exact opposite. Your skill != your alliance rank...smh.

"If DC are trying to get emp, let them come out and fight." That statement really just confirms you are a zerg-friendly AP/emp farmer, and nothing else. DC doesn't help us on Azuras, and when they do from Chillrend, it's usually to troll, and they bring in the enemy groups too. So, you've got 1 major guild on Azuras, and a few less than 12 player groups. So please, YOU leave, so DC can come out and fight. "A second group coordinating at different locations on the map and they would have crowned a few times by now." Care to send us a second group there bud?

Removing former emp buffs for me WILL change a lot. I have watched the AD leaderboards, the EP leaderboards, and it is very evident groups like you are emp farming. Maybe, just maybe, removing those buffs will deter punks from hogging leaderboards, and even a solo player might get a chance @ emp. Ultimately the real problem is, people like you, who have had emp, yet still feel the need to be crowned emp multiple times, and help people who can't cut it on a 1:1 basis get emp. I 1v1'd one of the emps you crowned, and I legitimately had to leave the server from laughter. They don't care about the campaign, they care about being emp and the emp passives, or the fancy title. Farming DC @ Warden proves that, because y'all needed a 3:1 ratio to do it. It's a joke, that you can't seem to see.

"If you were a new player, and came to me asking to join the guild and group, and asked for my advice on how to achieve Emperor, I would happily spend a few minutes assuring that you're either a competent player and/or able to learn." Is your advice to pop lock a server where DC can only respond with at max 2bars to get emp? That's what it seems like. Real skill there bro.

"You may hate me due to jealousy or because you're in another faction and I've led the group that wiped you a few hundred times (or you were one of the ten people that I spent about a half hour killing over and over at Warden yesterday), though as we see it, that's not a reason to hate"

[snip]

"or you were one of the ten people that I spent about a half hour killing over and over at Warden yesterday" Do you not even see what you just said? TEN people, and you guys needed a pop locked server. Please, get over yourself, and start thinking about the overall PVP health of this game, and not just you and your guildies.

[edited for baiting]

Korlac49

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

While you're at it, can you perhaps remove Stealth detection potions. That way nightblades can actually use stealth? Thanks!

Valnas

you still can, it only upsthe radius. Just shake your tail using one of the many speed and movement abilites nightblades also get. These inc: concealed weapon and vamp speed IN cloak, blur morph, bow dodge roll, rapid, your shade, medium sprint, paths, + fear.

Manoekin

frozywozy wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

if you dont take some bad you will get no good..

this is a major issue,

WRX wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

What happens when one pug spams purge on you?

You report him for botting.

Haha I'm sure that'll help (cough.. blink blink... cough)

Takllin wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

What happens when one pug spams purge on you?

Make it so that the purge only works if you actually have negative effects removed.

What if they purge a burning from fire staffs or any other effect not worthy of being purged with that solution?

Most groups/people would have issues choosing when to purge and when not, so it would mess up better guilds.

Best option Ive seen is make it like power surge (or whatever morph heals) and have it only effect you X amount of seconds. .5 - 1.0 would be nice

Make purge 5s cooldown on the purify but make it a total clearing of all statuses. is that enough? If you dont have a status there is no cooldown is a given. and whats so *** bad about making a group have to think before they purge? that's part of the goal. better than mindlessly spamming. make it like casting barrier, important but requiring timing to make full use out of it

the average blob is purged about ever 0.5 seconds currently... a 0.5 cooldown would do literally nothing for that, and 1s would be almost no improvement since you cast at that rate anyways.. untill you hit 2s there is virtually no point in the cooldown.

I have to completely disagree with your past 2 statements.

A second cooldown on all players hit will still create the same issue. Other groups/pugs purge you and now you are screwed for 5 seconds? This is not fair to the competent players who would use it correctly.

Other option is make purging siege a different alliance skill that operates similar to purge but give it some restriction like every 2-3 seconds.

Assuming you are a solo player just trying to gun down people with siege though, thats the sort of gameplay I find very discouraging. Good group of coordinating people should have the proper defenses to live through siege. And we do.

because Barrier, Rapid Maneuver requring careful use makes them totally worthless... 5s cooldown on the purge effect of purge would just add it to that camp... if some random purges you of one ability thats something you have to deal with just like if you were trying to move in stealth when a random comes and starts spamming springs on you..

5s is barely any time... only slightly longer than a Treb reloading, which is why im suggesting 5s.... if you start getting hammered by siege then you need to move out of the way... blobs can move but seige cant... this is proven any time seige appears to fight a blob in openworld PvP.. it ends up utterly worthless not because of purge but because it doesnt hit anything due to the blobs manuvering.

Purge is most commonly used by those blobs that are attacking a keep, and it enables them to so easily run rampant against any odds that it borders on unfairness to the defenders, rendering nearly any attempt by anything other than another blob pointless.. thats Not healthy for the game AT ALL.

Organized groups dont need to stack to avoid siege generally.. LOS tactics and more are generally enough unless seige gets past the 9+ count. past a certain point stacking needs to be punishable... you cannot have one tactic that so utterly outperforms any other tactic without serious loss in the long run.

people are acting like even a 5s cooldown would make purge pointless but it wouldnt... it would still allow you time to get out of the way of seige, or let you purge away the dots after making a breech attempt.

as long as the cooldown only affects you if you get cleared of an effect i see no problem with "pugs casting purge and screwing my timers"

if it lets blobs die then everyone is better off...

right now its like going bowling but having the pins able to instantly get back up unless you throw another lanes pins at them.

a game that is ONLY for the group is not much of a game... Grouping does need some disadvantages or else people will keep blobspamming

one last note... Purge is only a part of the problem that enables Blobbing.

Dude you just have no clue to be honest.

Purge is strong, not op, but strong. When purging you lose many things like dps, heals (depending) snares, ultis, etc..

There is not a single place in a keep you are not vulnerable to siege, not one. You can wipe all guards easily in an open keep.

You are mentioning keeps not being defended by 9+ siege, what groups are you fighting or playing with? An organized defense has 6 siege up top, 6-10 oils, maybe ballistas on the bottom, and maybe siege hitting the the entire keep from outside (depending on the numbers).

Two things to think about here, why do the best guilds use siege? And how the hell do you think we would get through 12-20 siege with a 5 second cooldown? If you think 5 seconds is short you are not even an occassional PvP player.

If you are one of those players that think siege, since its some big arrow on fire, should be indefensible then I don't know what to tell you. Its another tool to use, just like purge or steel tornado.

Tell you what, message me for my @ name, and we will meet up in game. Sit there for 5 seconds, heal your heart out, and lets see how long you live without purge. You won't

EDIT: And in this bowling scenario, even if 4 people would throw the ball together with some competency the pins would fall. Im going on a limb here, but Im assuming you are a solo player with little to zero organization.

Sorry but you should not stand a chance against 16-20 players who are better, more organized, and more prepared.

Dont tell him he has no clue. Thats being insulting - and hes trying to put forth some effort to reduce ball groups for the sake of lag. Its more than can be said of Decibel currently.

As he said, purge is used by all large groups. They use it while going from point A to point B. This is their way of negating all negative effects that might go through their barrier and cause any bit of harm, which is likely 0. Its negating most of the effect that siege has.

If you think its good gameplay that people effortlessly spam purges without knowing/caring what theyre coming up against, then you are a fool and your opinion has been diminished on this topic. Performance takes a dive when people start purging, even before theyre in combat. Groups just kick it up before they even barrier and charge through a breach, like theyre starting up a godamn lawnmower. Whats the downside to queing up this great strength that kills server performance? None. This skill needs to be revisisted so large groups actually care about charging through siege and pick small windows when they can move from Point A to Point B.

Decibel is what people are complaining about. They move around like a ball. They may not have a full 24 all the time (they have it sometimes), but with their general defensive posturing in group play, they dont need to. Any sense of balling can be done to the same effect past 12+ players, nobody is being a hero by running with 16. AOEs can impact your entire group, but thats ok, because healing is stronger. This style of gameplay is garbage - there is no downside to grouping up, you can automatically receive 50% or 75% damage mitigation from AOEs because you have a certain amount of people around you. The only non-mitigated damage we can use is siege, and then you have purge spam. If they didnt have these terrible AOE caps in, this style of play would go out the window and suddenly players couldnt rely on huge mitigations today that keep their groups alive.

WRX: "You are mentioning keeps not being defended by 9+ siege, what groups are you fighting or playing with? An organized defense has 6 siege up top, 6-10 oils, maybe ballistas on the bottom, and maybe siege hitting the the entire keep from outside (depending on the numbers)."

What groups dont have 9+ siege defending their keep? The groups FENGRUSH plays with dont have 9 extra people in his group with oil and others on ballista. In fact, theres a lot of people that dont have groups that big and theyre trying to voice their concerns here. Try playing DC on the average day and you will find plenty of groups that dont have adequate numbers to defend. Meanwhile theyre fighting low-talent players from your banana alliance that group up at 1:10 odds to push them in the afternoon - in ball group fashion, because this is how theyve been conditioned. And if they just so happen to even out the odds, you get guilds like yours that are fully commit to doubling up the faction numbers and bringing on the zerg with [snip] numbers where you can throw strategy to the wayside, rally up, purge and barrier while flooding BoL.

Keep posting in these threads about fixing zergs, FENGRUSH appreciates any voice of reason that will come out and help push ZOS into action on fixing their own game. But dont come and insult folks on the forums when youre playing the way you are today. Split up to groups of 8- people before you do that and by all means, tear into people about purge. At least we could say theres 1 less ball group killing cyrodiil performance.

[snip]

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

if you dont take some bad you will get no good..

this is a major issue,

WRX wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

What happens when one pug spams purge on you?

You report him for botting.

Haha I'm sure that'll help (cough.. blink blink... cough)

Takllin wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

What happens when one pug spams purge on you?

Make it so that the purge only works if you actually have negative effects removed.

What if they purge a burning from fire staffs or any other effect not worthy of being purged with that solution?

Most groups/people would have issues choosing when to purge and when not, so it would mess up better guilds.

Best option Ive seen is make it like power surge (or whatever morph heals) and have it only effect you X amount of seconds. .5 - 1.0 would be nice

Make purge 5s cooldown on the purify but make it a total clearing of all statuses. is that enough? If you dont have a status there is no cooldown is a given. and whats so *** bad about making a group have to think before they purge? that's part of the goal. better than mindlessly spamming. make it like casting barrier, important but requiring timing to make full use out of it

the average blob is purged about ever 0.5 seconds currently... a 0.5 cooldown would do literally nothing for that, and 1s would be almost no improvement since you cast at that rate anyways.. untill you hit 2s there is virtually no point in the cooldown.

I have to completely disagree with your past 2 statements.

A second cooldown on all players hit will still create the same issue. Other groups/pugs purge you and now you are screwed for 5 seconds? This is not fair to the competent players who would use it correctly.

Other option is make purging siege a different alliance skill that operates similar to purge but give it some restriction like every 2-3 seconds.

Assuming you are a solo player just trying to gun down people with siege though, thats the sort of gameplay I find very discouraging. Good group of coordinating people should have the proper defenses to live through siege. And we do.

because Barrier, Rapid Maneuver requring careful use makes them totally worthless... 5s cooldown on the purge effect of purge would just add it to that camp... if some random purges you of one ability thats something you have to deal with just like if you were trying to move in stealth when a random comes and starts spamming springs on you..

5s is barely any time... only slightly longer than a Treb reloading, which is why im suggesting 5s.... if you start getting hammered by siege then you need to move out of the way... blobs can move but seige cant... this is proven any time seige appears to fight a blob in openworld PvP.. it ends up utterly worthless not because of purge but because it doesnt hit anything due to the blobs manuvering.

Purge is most commonly used by those blobs that are attacking a keep, and it enables them to so easily run rampant against any odds that it borders on unfairness to the defenders, rendering nearly any attempt by anything other than another blob pointless.. thats Not healthy for the game AT ALL.

Organized groups dont need to stack to avoid siege generally.. LOS tactics and more are generally enough unless seige gets past the 9+ count. past a certain point stacking needs to be punishable... you cannot have one tactic that so utterly outperforms any other tactic without serious loss in the long run.

people are acting like even a 5s cooldown would make purge pointless but it wouldnt... it would still allow you time to get out of the way of seige, or let you purge away the dots after making a breech attempt.

as long as the cooldown only affects you if you get cleared of an effect i see no problem with "pugs casting purge and screwing my timers"

if it lets blobs die then everyone is better off...

right now its like going bowling but having the pins able to instantly get back up unless you throw another lanes pins at them.

a game that is ONLY for the group is not much of a game... Grouping does need some disadvantages or else people will keep blobspamming

one last note... Purge is only a part of the problem that enables Blobbing.

Im telling you the solution is:

Oil Catapualts and Meatbags no longer Purgeable, Meatbag Heal Debuff can stack twice Leave the base Purge Skill alone.

If you die to a Catapult itself that, that does very little damage, then you should probably quit playing the game.

What does this do?

It means that zergblob can be keep 70% snared 100% of the time. it also means a very substantial healing debuff can be kept on them 100% of the time....now your Fire Ballista's and other siege will be capable of countering/killing them without making siege a one shot cannon. as now their groups healers healing effectiveness has been substaintailly weakened.

Nerfing or messing with the base Purge skill will make the skill useless. any kind of cool down or cast time, and its simply not feasible to use it...


Oil Catapualts and Meatbags no longer Purgeable, Meatbag Heal Debuff can stack twice. You are not giving just anyone a one shot cannon, but what you are doing is giving a smaller organized group, any organized group for that matter, a chance to defend against a zerg and actually make defending a keep viable without a zerg of equal size.

this is the only viable alternative to nerfing purge. the problem here is it originally was not purgable.. then ZOS changed it to make it Purgable.. Old meta had defenders stacking them and spamming them on people going in, which current meta would just see the blob moving through with rapid and barrier. Meatbags would be much more effective vs current meta, at least as long as the blob is slow to use barrier. i do agree that making meatbags unpurgable would be a global punishment tho. but i would accept being unable to heal myself like normal if it stops blobs

I also think that scattershot catapults should have a 1-1.5 second knockdown... on their radius it would be enough that a single person with a timed shot could stop the movement of a blob.. the damage is so minor from Scattershot that once people realize its a scattershot they dont bother dodging anymore.

Honestly we need to be able to CC blobs. the reason i push for a Purge nerf is because it completetly takes CC out of the equation when blobs are involved.

No one in their right mind stands in siege... blobs just get away with it.. nerfing purge would not even be a lasting change... blobs would adapt pretty fast in the end.

Hearing people try and defend blobs at this point reminds me of people who defended old Vr10 batswarming and other things ZOS has nerfed..

also... south park...

Also, siege is a tool to help you, not an I WIN button. Siege is devastating when you actually use it correctly, even against large groups.

Yeah, because 10k+ damage that isn't aoe capped totally sucks compared to your prox det I blocked for 0 damage.

[edited to remove quote]

glak

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

As I’m sure many of you have noticed, there are far fewer performance problems in non-Veteran campaigns. We have been investigating why non-Veteran campaigns perform better than their Veteran counterparts, and are starting to make some changes based on what we have found. As some of you already know, what we’re seeing is this: there is a point where if too many players are too close together and perform too many AoE and other instant-cast types of spells that server performance starts to degrade. As lower level characters don’t have many of these types of spells, non-Veteran campaigns generally don’t run into this trouble.

As such, the combat team is currently making adjustments to line-of-sight checks for area-of-effect abilities that have been causing the majority of server congestion in Cyrodiil. This has resulted in us taking a close look at higher level abilities/items to root out line-of-sight checks and other potential client-to-server message overflow issues.

Hopefully taking out the first LoS check. That's the one allowing for blind AoE spamming while everyone else lags out. Also allows players to exploit the AoE ultimates' free LoS check whereby spamming the ultimate button and thus restarting the ultimate activity for free.

WRX

Manoekin wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

if you dont take some bad you will get no good..

this is a major issue,

WRX wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

What happens when one pug spams purge on you?

You report him for botting.

Haha I'm sure that'll help (cough.. blink blink... cough)

Takllin wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

What happens when one pug spams purge on you?

Make it so that the purge only works if you actually have negative effects removed.

What if they purge a burning from fire staffs or any other effect not worthy of being purged with that solution?

Most groups/people would have issues choosing when to purge and when not, so it would mess up better guilds.

Best option Ive seen is make it like power surge (or whatever morph heals) and have it only effect you X amount of seconds. .5 - 1.0 would be nice

Make purge 5s cooldown on the purify but make it a total clearing of all statuses. is that enough? If you dont have a status there is no cooldown is a given. and whats so *** bad about making a group have to think before they purge? that's part of the goal. better than mindlessly spamming. make it like casting barrier, important but requiring timing to make full use out of it

the average blob is purged about ever 0.5 seconds currently... a 0.5 cooldown would do literally nothing for that, and 1s would be almost no improvement since you cast at that rate anyways.. untill you hit 2s there is virtually no point in the cooldown.

I have to completely disagree with your past 2 statements.

A second cooldown on all players hit will still create the same issue. Other groups/pugs purge you and now you are screwed for 5 seconds? This is not fair to the competent players who would use it correctly.

Other option is make purging siege a different alliance skill that operates similar to purge but give it some restriction like every 2-3 seconds.

Assuming you are a solo player just trying to gun down people with siege though, thats the sort of gameplay I find very discouraging. Good group of coordinating people should have the proper defenses to live through siege. And we do.

because Barrier, Rapid Maneuver requring careful use makes them totally worthless... 5s cooldown on the purge effect of purge would just add it to that camp... if some random purges you of one ability thats something you have to deal with just like if you were trying to move in stealth when a random comes and starts spamming springs on you..

5s is barely any time... only slightly longer than a Treb reloading, which is why im suggesting 5s.... if you start getting hammered by siege then you need to move out of the way... blobs can move but seige cant... this is proven any time seige appears to fight a blob in openworld PvP.. it ends up utterly worthless not because of purge but because it doesnt hit anything due to the blobs manuvering.

Purge is most commonly used by those blobs that are attacking a keep, and it enables them to so easily run rampant against any odds that it borders on unfairness to the defenders, rendering nearly any attempt by anything other than another blob pointless.. thats Not healthy for the game AT ALL.

Organized groups dont need to stack to avoid siege generally.. LOS tactics and more are generally enough unless seige gets past the 9+ count. past a certain point stacking needs to be punishable... you cannot have one tactic that so utterly outperforms any other tactic without serious loss in the long run.

people are acting like even a 5s cooldown would make purge pointless but it wouldnt... it would still allow you time to get out of the way of seige, or let you purge away the dots after making a breech attempt.

as long as the cooldown only affects you if you get cleared of an effect i see no problem with "pugs casting purge and screwing my timers"

if it lets blobs die then everyone is better off...

right now its like going bowling but having the pins able to instantly get back up unless you throw another lanes pins at them.

a game that is ONLY for the group is not much of a game... Grouping does need some disadvantages or else people will keep blobspamming

one last note... Purge is only a part of the problem that enables Blobbing.

Dude you just have no clue to be honest.

Purge is strong, not op, but strong. When purging you lose many things like dps, heals (depending) snares, ultis, etc..

There is not a single place in a keep you are not vulnerable to siege, not one. You can wipe all guards easily in an open keep.

You are mentioning keeps not being defended by 9+ siege, what groups are you fighting or playing with? An organized defense has 6 siege up top, 6-10 oils, maybe ballistas on the bottom, and maybe siege hitting the the entire keep from outside (depending on the numbers).

Two things to think about here, why do the best guilds use siege? And how the hell do you think we would get through 12-20 siege with a 5 second cooldown? If you think 5 seconds is short you are not even an occassional PvP player.

If you are one of those players that think siege, since its some big arrow on fire, should be indefensible then I don't know what to tell you. Its another tool to use, just like purge or steel tornado.

Tell you what, message me for my @ name, and we will meet up in game. Sit there for 5 seconds, heal your heart out, and lets see how long you live without purge. You won't

EDIT: And in this bowling scenario, even if 4 people would throw the ball together with some competency the pins would fall. Im going on a limb here, but Im assuming you are a solo player with little to zero organization.

Sorry but you should not stand a chance against 16-20 players who are better, more organized, and more prepared.

Dont tell him he has no clue. Thats being insulting - and hes trying to put forth some effort to reduce ball groups for the sake of lag. Its more than can be said of Decibel currently.

As he said, purge is used by all large groups. They use it while going from point A to point B. This is their way of negating all negative effects that might go through their barrier and cause any bit of harm, which is likely 0. Its negating most of the effect that siege has.

If you think its good gameplay that people effortlessly spam purges without knowing/caring what theyre coming up against, then you are a fool and your opinion has been diminished on this topic. Performance takes a dive when people start purging, even before theyre in combat. Groups just kick it up before they even barrier and charge through a breach, like theyre starting up a godamn lawnmower. Whats the downside to queing up this great strength that kills server performance? None. This skill needs to be revisisted so large groups actually care about charging through siege and pick small windows when they can move from Point A to Point B.

Decibel is what people are complaining about. They move around like a ball. They may not have a full 24 all the time (they have it sometimes), but with their general defensive posturing in group play, they dont need to. Any sense of balling can be done to the same effect past 12+ players, nobody is being a hero by running with 16. AOEs can impact your entire group, but thats ok, because healing is stronger. This style of gameplay is garbage - there is no downside to grouping up, you can automatically receive 50% or 75% damage mitigation from AOEs because you have a certain amount of people around you. The only non-mitigated damage we can use is siege, and then you have purge spam. If they didnt have these terrible AOE caps in, this style of play would go out the window and suddenly players couldnt rely on huge mitigations today that keep their groups alive.

WRX: "You are mentioning keeps not being defended by 9+ siege, what groups are you fighting or playing with? An organized defense has 6 siege up top, 6-10 oils, maybe ballistas on the bottom, and maybe siege hitting the the entire keep from outside (depending on the numbers)."

What groups dont have 9+ siege defending their keep? The groups FENGRUSH plays with dont have 9 extra people in his group with oil and others on ballista. In fact, theres a lot of people that dont have groups that big and theyre trying to voice their concerns here. Try playing DC on the average day and you will find plenty of groups that dont have adequate numbers to defend. Meanwhile theyre fighting low-talent players from your banana alliance that group up at 1:10 odds to push them in the afternoon - in ball group fashion, because this is how theyve been conditioned. And if they just so happen to even out the odds, you get guilds like yours that are fully commit to doubling up the faction numbers and bringing on the zerg with [snip] numbers where you can throw strategy to the wayside, rally up, purge and barrier while flooding BoL.

Keep posting in these threads about fixing zergs, FENGRUSH appreciates any voice of reason that will come out and help push ZOS into action on fixing their own game. But dont come and insult folks on the forums when youre playing the way you are today. Split up to groups of 8- people before you do that and by all means, tear into people about purge. At least we could say theres 1 less ball group killing cyrodiil performance.

[snip]

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

if you dont take some bad you will get no good..

this is a major issue,

WRX wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

What happens when one pug spams purge on you?

You report him for botting.

Haha I'm sure that'll help (cough.. blink blink... cough)

Takllin wrote: »

WRX wrote: »

What happens when one pug spams purge on you?

Make it so that the purge only works if you actually have negative effects removed.

What if they purge a burning from fire staffs or any other effect not worthy of being purged with that solution?

Most groups/people would have issues choosing when to purge and when not, so it would mess up better guilds.

Best option Ive seen is make it like power surge (or whatever morph heals) and have it only effect you X amount of seconds. .5 - 1.0 would be nice

Make purge 5s cooldown on the purify but make it a total clearing of all statuses. is that enough? If you dont have a status there is no cooldown is a given. and whats so *** bad about making a group have to think before they purge? that's part of the goal. better than mindlessly spamming. make it like casting barrier, important but requiring timing to make full use out of it

the average blob is purged about ever 0.5 seconds currently... a 0.5 cooldown would do literally nothing for that, and 1s would be almost no improvement since you cast at that rate anyways.. untill you hit 2s there is virtually no point in the cooldown.

I have to completely disagree with your past 2 statements.

A second cooldown on all players hit will still create the same issue. Other groups/pugs purge you and now you are screwed for 5 seconds? This is not fair to the competent players who would use it correctly.

Other option is make purging siege a different alliance skill that operates similar to purge but give it some restriction like every 2-3 seconds.

Assuming you are a solo player just trying to gun down people with siege though, thats the sort of gameplay I find very discouraging. Good group of coordinating people should have the proper defenses to live through siege. And we do.

because Barrier, Rapid Maneuver requring careful use makes them totally worthless... 5s cooldown on the purge effect of purge would just add it to that camp... if some random purges you of one ability thats something you have to deal with just like if you were trying to move in stealth when a random comes and starts spamming springs on you..

5s is barely any time... only slightly longer than a Treb reloading, which is why im suggesting 5s.... if you start getting hammered by siege then you need to move out of the way... blobs can move but seige cant... this is proven any time seige appears to fight a blob in openworld PvP.. it ends up utterly worthless not because of purge but because it doesnt hit anything due to the blobs manuvering.

Purge is most commonly used by those blobs that are attacking a keep, and it enables them to so easily run rampant against any odds that it borders on unfairness to the defenders, rendering nearly any attempt by anything other than another blob pointless.. thats Not healthy for the game AT ALL.

Organized groups dont need to stack to avoid siege generally.. LOS tactics and more are generally enough unless seige gets past the 9+ count. past a certain point stacking needs to be punishable... you cannot have one tactic that so utterly outperforms any other tactic without serious loss in the long run.

people are acting like even a 5s cooldown would make purge pointless but it wouldnt... it would still allow you time to get out of the way of seige, or let you purge away the dots after making a breech attempt.

as long as the cooldown only affects you if you get cleared of an effect i see no problem with "pugs casting purge and screwing my timers"

if it lets blobs die then everyone is better off...

right now its like going bowling but having the pins able to instantly get back up unless you throw another lanes pins at them.

a game that is ONLY for the group is not much of a game... Grouping does need some disadvantages or else people will keep blobspamming

one last note... Purge is only a part of the problem that enables Blobbing.

Im telling you the solution is:

Oil Catapualts and Meatbags no longer Purgeable, Meatbag Heal Debuff can stack twice Leave the base Purge Skill alone.

If you die to a Catapult itself that, that does very little damage, then you should probably quit playing the game.

What does this do?

It means that zergblob can be keep 70% snared 100% of the time. it also means a very substantial healing debuff can be kept on them 100% of the time....now your Fire Ballista's and other siege will be capable of countering/killing them without making siege a one shot cannon. as now their groups healers healing effectiveness has been substaintailly weakened.

Nerfing or messing with the base Purge skill will make the skill useless. any kind of cool down or cast time, and its simply not feasible to use it...


Oil Catapualts and Meatbags no longer Purgeable, Meatbag Heal Debuff can stack twice. You are not giving just anyone a one shot cannon, but what you are doing is giving a smaller organized group, any organized group for that matter, a chance to defend against a zerg and actually make defending a keep viable without a zerg of equal size.

this is the only viable alternative to nerfing purge. the problem here is it originally was not purgable.. then ZOS changed it to make it Purgable.. Old meta had defenders stacking them and spamming them on people going in, which current meta would just see the blob moving through with rapid and barrier. Meatbags would be much more effective vs current meta, at least as long as the blob is slow to use barrier. i do agree that making meatbags unpurgable would be a global punishment tho. but i would accept being unable to heal myself like normal if it stops blobs

I also think that scattershot catapults should have a 1-1.5 second knockdown... on their radius it would be enough that a single person with a timed shot could stop the movement of a blob.. the damage is so minor from Scattershot that once people realize its a scattershot they dont bother dodging anymore.

Honestly we need to be able to CC blobs. the reason i push for a Purge nerf is because it completetly takes CC out of the equation when blobs are involved.

No one in their right mind stands in siege... blobs just get away with it.. nerfing purge would not even be a lasting change... blobs would adapt pretty fast in the end.

Hearing people try and defend blobs at this point reminds me of people who defended old Vr10 batswarming and other things ZOS has nerfed..

also... south park...

Also, siege is a tool to help you, not an I WIN button. Siege is devastating when you actually use it correctly, even against large groups.

Yeah, because 10k+ damage that isn't aoe capped totally sucks compared to your prox det I blocked for 0 damage.

Couldn't imagine 2 or EVEN 3 hitting at once. Blasphemy.

[edited to remove quote]

Sacadon

Vurian97 wrote: »

Ehh, part of it was serious. Another was just a jab to see which ragers were still active in the forum.

Which reminds me of a famous saying about it being better to remain silent... Rather than removing all doubt...

wanderlustx5

As expected another thread which started out great has degenerated into EP vs AD vs DC discussion. The solution is simple for the zerg problem, nerf heals and purges. The good players will still be fine. The people who run in a ball and only know to spam two skills wont. Nerf healing springs and put a cool down or massive cost increase on purge. Nerf number of players affected. At this point everything else has been nerfed to death except siege, its about time the endless heals is countered and meat bags and debuffs worked again. When two blobs meet what happens to everyone is massive lag, inability for most abilitys to process, and basicly bad pvp. AOE cap removal will do nothing as the zergs primary weapon is aoe, it will just make lag worse as the server has to process more hits of the aoe and make the zerg stronger.

The Uninvited

Nerf healing springs? How about pve then?