1.6.3 Sorc Magicka Builds Still Ruined!!!

Sacadon · February 2015

It would add credibility to the current state of affairs if those who run in serious PvE guilds would speak up and state "My guild will not take sorcs on trial runs because of X". I know of a few, but for obvious reasons I'm not naming them. Same BTW for guilds that do take sorcs and if/why they're successful.

pppontus · February 2015

samiz1 wrote: »

[pics]

IF ZOS DOESN'T UNDERSTAND WITH WORDS THAT SORCERER ARE WEAK.

TELL ME HOW MANY SORCERER DO YOU SEE ?

THE ANSWER IS 2/60

This is a thread about 1.6 in the PTS forum. Please do not bring up 1.5 in this discussion as it is irrelevant.

Sacadon wrote: »

Good writeup on the 1.6.3 changes except for stating that ZOS lied. ZOS didn't lie. They were clear about what they changed.

The changes were just not enough to be of any value and instead they made the situation worse. We'd be better off rolling them back and asking them to take more time to consider all of the skills lines again after the 1.6 storm subsides. I say this because right now they don't need another complexity to to deal with and mess up (nor would anyone in similar circumstances). And we have this as an example of what happens when they try a quick fix.

Actually the change to Liquid Lightning makes a non-pet build even more viable. See my Petless Sorceress. It seems to work very well and should be able to push DPS equivalent of the Pet build I'm sure.

My biggest problem with it is that it's hard to keep up because no addons have the correct timer for it but like 1,3K dps with only having it up like 60-70%, once I get the timings down it should add closer to 2K DPS.

samiz1 · February 2015

pppontus wrote: »

samiz1 wrote: »

[pics]

IF ZOS DOESN'T UNDERSTAND WITH WORDS THAT SORCERER ARE WEAK.

TELL ME HOW MANY SORCERER DO YOU SEE ?

THE ANSWER IS 2/60

This is a thread about 1.6 in the PTS forum. Please do not bring up 1.5 in this discussion as it is irrelevant.

IN THE 1.6 IT WILL BE WORSE.

Carter_DC · February 2015

pppontus wrote: »

samiz1 wrote: »

[pics]

IF ZOS DOESN'T UNDERSTAND WITH WORDS THAT SORCERER ARE WEAK.

TELL ME HOW MANY SORCERER DO YOU SEE ?

THE ANSWER IS 2/60

This is a thread about 1.6 in the PTS forum. Please do not bring up 1.5 in this discussion as it is irrelevant.

Actually this is relevant, since sorc are already under-represented in high level pve on 1.5... just imagine what it will be like with 1.6...

Exstazik · February 2015

samiz1 wrote: »

IF ZOS DOESN'T UNDERSTAND WITH WORDS THAT SORCERER ARE WEAK.

TELL ME HOW MANY SORCERER DO YOU SEE ?

THE ANSWER IS 2/60

I see 90% of sorcerers who RR to DK

....it's all sorceres they just disguised to DK

Tankqull · February 2015

pppontus wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Have you tried bow on the PTS? Now that *** is broken. I can barely do 8K with it.

use scorced earth its a really strong dot now

I did do that, main problem is Snipe weaving is 100% buggy, get stuck in Snipes for several seconds so there is no skill to use as a main DPS skill. It only seems to work if you don't weave which is when I get 8K but then it can't be sustained even for 40 seconds WITH Vicious Ophidian and full stam cost reduction..

It seems that you think that Liquid Lightning isn't a strong DOT, but you can even see since you have to cast it twice as much as Liquid Lightning.. if Scorched Earth is a DPS increase (which I believe it is) then Liquid Lightning is an AMAZING DPS increase (which it is).

So in essence, I don't know what you're trying to say.

well what i´m trying to say is that other skills comparable or even stronger are considered by other classes as completly useless while sorc skills are called "strong" sure splash is by far the best dot sorcs have as it has no contester...

thats all.
the entire changes done in 1.6.3 to sorcs are garbage

pppontus wrote: »

samiz1 wrote: »

[pics]

IF ZOS DOESN'T UNDERSTAND WITH WORDS THAT SORCERER ARE WEAK.

TELL ME HOW MANY SORCERER DO YOU SEE ?

THE ANSWER IS 2/60

This is a thread about 1.6 in the PTS forum. Please do not bring up 1.5 in this discussion as it is irrelevant.

Sacadon wrote: »

Good writeup on the 1.6.3 changes except for stating that ZOS lied. ZOS didn't lie. They were clear about what they changed.

The changes were just not enough to be of any value and instead they made the situation worse. We'd be better off rolling them back and asking them to take more time to consider all of the skills lines again after the 1.6 storm subsides. I say this because right now they don't need another complexity to to deal with and mess up (nor would anyone in similar circumstances). And we have this as an example of what happens when they try a quick fix.

Actually the change to Liquid Lightning makes a non-pet build even more viable. See my Petless Sorceress. It seems to work very well and should be able to push DPS equivalent of the Pet build I'm sure.

My biggest problem with it is that it's hard to keep up because no addons have the correct timer for it but like 1,3K dps with only having it up like 60-70%, once I get the timings down it should add closer to 2K DPS.

na in your screen you have a 28sec fight even when you are completly inefficient in realizing that sparkling blue lightning went off you will only get 1sec or two additional ticks over that period of time wich is not even an increase of 10% wich would resemble to an increasement from 1212 you currently have to 1.4k max. so plz for the sake of a usefull discussion dont overblow your numbers

daemonios · February 2015

Carter_DC wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

samiz1 wrote: »

[pics]

IF ZOS DOESN'T UNDERSTAND WITH WORDS THAT SORCERER ARE WEAK.

TELL ME HOW MANY SORCERER DO YOU SEE ?

THE ANSWER IS 2/60

This is a thread about 1.6 in the PTS forum. Please do not bring up 1.5 in this discussion as it is irrelevant.

Actually this is relevant, since sorc are already under-represented in high level pve on 1.5... just imagine what it will be like with 1.6...

I agree. I've done a little study myself and the 2/60 shown in the pics are actually worse than what I've found (around 10% Sorcs in the top 10 trials teams).

It IS relevant to 1.6 because if the class isn't fixed that situation won't change and Sorcs will be excluded from end-game PvE content.

Derra · February 2015

Have no issues with my pve dps. Only issue i have is that a pet-build outperforms what pppontus posted by 10-20%.

Maulkin · February 2015

In terms of PvE DPS, I think it's time we Sorcs did some hands-on testing and posted some screenshots, to see where we're at.

I will try to do a few parses on Bloodspawn with a non-pet spec and around 100 CP. I think 3600 CP skews results too much and it's unrealistic for short-medium term. I'm planning to wear 4xCyro Light, 5xArch-Mage, and 2xTorug's Pact.

I will try a conventional setup:
1) Crystal Frags
2) Velocious Curse
3) Lightning Splash / Destructive Reach
4) Degeneration
5) Inner Light
U) Charged Atro

I will keep Spell Sym on the "off bar" along with the execute. I will try to replace Velocious Curse or the DoTs with Spell Sym, to see the effect on DPS of cutting down the DoTs.

I will have a healer with Combat Prayer, Siphon Spirit and Aggressive Horn for buffs.

I will post back here with at least a screenshot or "hopefully" a video, if I can get Shadowplay to work on the PTS version. Peace Out

Lied · February 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

In terms of PvE DPS, I think it's time we Sorcs did some hands-on testing and posted some screenshots, to see where we're at.

I will try to do a few parses on Bloodspawn with a non-pet spec and around 100 CP. I think 3600 CP skews results too much and it's unrealistic for short-medium term. I'm planning to wear 4xCyro Light, 5xArch-Mage, and 2xTorug's Pact.

I will try a conventional setup:
1) Crystal Frags
2) Velocious Curse
3) Lightning Splash / Destructive Reach
4) Degeneration
5) Inner Light
U) Charged Atro

I will keep Spell Sym on the "off bar" along with the execute. I will try to replace Velocious Curse or the DoTs with Spell Sym, to see the effect on DPS of cutting down the DoTs.

I will have a healer with Combat Prayer, Siphon Spirit and Aggressive Horn for buffs.

I will post back here with at least a screenshot or "hopefully" a video, if I can get Shadowplay to work on the PTS version. Peace Out

Great idea. I know the video would be a pain in the ass, but it would go a long way to proving your point since it's not hard to come up with numbers that suck if that's what someone is trying to prove. I'm sure a lot of sorcs that have posted very insightful math must be frustrated that it appears to be ignored, but even more math is really the only way to go, IMO.

pppontus · February 2015

samiz1 wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

samiz1 wrote: »

[pics]

IF ZOS DOESN'T UNDERSTAND WITH WORDS THAT SORCERER ARE WEAK.

TELL ME HOW MANY SORCERER DO YOU SEE ?

THE ANSWER IS 2/60

This is a thread about 1.6 in the PTS forum. Please do not bring up 1.5 in this discussion as it is irrelevant.

IN THE 1.6 IT WILL BE WORSE.

If you are a bad player, it will most definitely be worse. If you are a good player, it will most definitely be better.

Btw, when people here are like DKs so OPPPP, have you actually tried performing the DPS numbers that the DKs in Hodor, or in my guild for that matter do? It's not like its an easy rotation.

Sacadon wrote: »

It would add credibility to the current state of affairs if those who run in serious PvE guilds would speak up and state "My guild will not take sorcs on trial runs because of X". I know of a few, but for obvious reasons I'm not naming them. Same BTW for guilds that do take sorcs and if/why they're successful.

Here. Only time we exclude Sorcs on live is for ultra speedruns but then everyone who isn't a DK or Stamina NB is pretty much excluded and we generally only take 1 healer for AA/HR. In 1.6 I honestly can't see any reason whatsoever to exclude a Sorcerer, more likely we'll want more Sorcs as they can do their DPS from range which helps unclutter fights like the Mantikora where it sucks to have 5+ people in Melee range.

Carter_DC wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

samiz1 wrote: »

[pics]

IF ZOS DOESN'T UNDERSTAND WITH WORDS THAT SORCERER ARE WEAK.

TELL ME HOW MANY SORCERER DO YOU SEE ?

THE ANSWER IS 2/60

This is a thread about 1.6 in the PTS forum. Please do not bring up 1.5 in this discussion as it is irrelevant.

Actually this is relevant, since sorc are already under-represented in high level pve on 1.5... just imagine what it will be like with 1.6...

I can imagine. There will be no desire to exclude Sorcs unless you're going for max DPS only where you'll still only take DKs which is a problem in itself (DK is top DPS but bring no utility, problem being that many trials don't require much utility) but not a problem with the Sorcerer class.

Derra wrote: »

Have no issues with my pve dps. Only issue i have is that a pet-build outperforms what pppontus posted by 10-20%.

I honestly don't think so if you compare them correctly, I haven't seen a pet build unbuffed do over 10K. My own tests with the pet builds were not too impressive in all honesty. I will at some point try my build in a proper group situation but in theory it should be able to push 11K at least.

daemonios wrote: »

Carter_DC wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

samiz1 wrote: »

[pics]

IF ZOS DOESN'T UNDERSTAND WITH WORDS THAT SORCERER ARE WEAK.

TELL ME HOW MANY SORCERER DO YOU SEE ?

THE ANSWER IS 2/60

This is a thread about 1.6 in the PTS forum. Please do not bring up 1.5 in this discussion as it is irrelevant.

Actually this is relevant, since sorc are already under-represented in high level pve on 1.5... just imagine what it will be like with 1.6...

I agree. I've done a little study myself and the 2/60 shown in the pics are actually worse than what I've found (around 10% Sorcs in the top 10 trials teams).

It IS relevant to 1.6 because if the class isn't fixed that situation won't change and Sorcs will be excluded from end-game PvE content.

The class is already fixed.

I showed everyone a good build without pets, still it's broken? I don't understand.

The thing everyone needs to understand is that all builds require a certain degree of skill in weaving, applying skills and having the correct gear setup. If you're doing less than 1K on live, for example, you're already doing it wrong.

If you pull 800 on the Sorc and then complain about your class, does the class need fixing?

Unless we're at a point where we've reached the potential DPS of the class we can't really say it's bad. In my opinion I am nowhere close to finished with my build and can still pull 9,7K unbuffed. I still need to evaluate buffs, potions, certain skill choices as well as traits (precise, nirnhoned or sharpened?).

Tankqull wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Have you tried bow on the PTS? Now that *** is broken. I can barely do 8K with it.

use scorced earth its a really strong dot now

I did do that, main problem is Snipe weaving is 100% buggy, get stuck in Snipes for several seconds so there is no skill to use as a main DPS skill. It only seems to work if you don't weave which is when I get 8K but then it can't be sustained even for 40 seconds WITH Vicious Ophidian and full stam cost reduction..

It seems that you think that Liquid Lightning isn't a strong DOT, but you can even see since you have to cast it twice as much as Liquid Lightning.. if Scorched Earth is a DPS increase (which I believe it is) then Liquid Lightning is an AMAZING DPS increase (which it is).

So in essence, I don't know what you're trying to say.

well what i´m trying to say is that other skills comparable or even stronger are considered by other classes as completly useless while sorc skills are called "strong" sure splash is by far the best dot sorcs have as it has no contester...

thats all.
the entire changes done in 1.6.3 to sorcs are garbage

pppontus wrote: »

samiz1 wrote: »

[pics]

IF ZOS DOESN'T UNDERSTAND WITH WORDS THAT SORCERER ARE WEAK.

TELL ME HOW MANY SORCERER DO YOU SEE ?

THE ANSWER IS 2/60

This is a thread about 1.6 in the PTS forum. Please do not bring up 1.5 in this discussion as it is irrelevant.

Sacadon wrote: »

Good writeup on the 1.6.3 changes except for stating that ZOS lied. ZOS didn't lie. They were clear about what they changed.

The changes were just not enough to be of any value and instead they made the situation worse. We'd be better off rolling them back and asking them to take more time to consider all of the skills lines again after the 1.6 storm subsides. I say this because right now they don't need another complexity to to deal with and mess up (nor would anyone in similar circumstances). And we have this as an example of what happens when they try a quick fix.

Actually the change to Liquid Lightning makes a non-pet build even more viable. See my Petless Sorceress. It seems to work very well and should be able to push DPS equivalent of the Pet build I'm sure.

My biggest problem with it is that it's hard to keep up because no addons have the correct timer for it but like 1,3K dps with only having it up like 60-70%, once I get the timings down it should add closer to 2K DPS.

na in your screen you have a 28sec fight even when you are completly inefficient in realizing that sparkling blue lightning went off you will only get 1sec or two additional ticks over that period of time wich is not even an increase of 10% wich would resemble to an increasement from 1212 you currently have to 1.4k max. so plz for the sake of a usefull discussion dont overblow your numbers

If Scorched Earth would be 10 sec it would be such a nobrainer that no one could possibly exclude it from a build, sort of like what Liquid Lightning is now. I still think it's going to be necessary even for bow builds to use Scorched Earth somehow since bow is so weak, even though it's much worse than LL.

This was like my 3rd test and my 1st test with that specific rotation, forgive me for missing some sparkling stuff for 8 secs while weaving medium attacks and timing instaprocs..

You know how to calculate whether a DOT is worth casting? Does it do more damage over it's duration than another insta-skill. If you can find me a skill that does more instant damage on an instant cast than LL does over 10 secs, yeah..

Vis · February 2015

Reposting this because it still reflects my feelings. In a vacuum sorcs look great. But this game is not in a vacuum. Every strong sorc attribute is easily countered by almost every class (including sorcs themselves).

The sorc is class is an amazing class with amazibg capabilities. However, all of our greatest strengths are also the game's most easily countered. For instance:

We have an amazing nuke...but it is usually reflected

We have an amazing gap opener...but it is usually instantly closed

We have an amazing dot...but it's usually blocked or purged

We have an amazing ultimate...but it too is usually reflected

We have amazing cc...but it's easily broken and costs too much

We have amazing toggle buffs...but they consume our chances for variety

We have an amazing dps/heal buff...but it costs too much, even for magicka users

I understand there is give and take. But the combination of these counters lead to very pigeon holed play that feels underwhelming. I now always build a dps bar and another far inferior anti-reflect dps bar, because that is how common and expected these counters are.

We need the devs to step back and consider changing one more of these counters, or giving us new skills to let us build out of this box we've been cornered into. For instance, make cf absorbable but un-reflectable and you will see a ton of us quiet down.

pppontus · February 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

In terms of PvE DPS, I think it's time we Sorcs did some hands-on testing and posted some screenshots, to see where we're at.

I will try to do a few parses on Bloodspawn with a non-pet spec and around 100 CP. I think 3600 CP skews results too much and it's unrealistic for short-medium term. I'm planning to wear 4xCyro Light, 5xArch-Mage, and 2xTorug's Pact.

I will try a conventional setup:
1) Crystal Frags
2) Velocious Curse
3) Lightning Splash / Destructive Reach
4) Degeneration
5) Inner Light
U) Charged Atro

I will keep Spell Sym on the "off bar" along with the execute. I will try to replace Velocious Curse or the DoTs with Spell Sym, to see the effect on DPS of cutting down the DoTs.

I will have a healer with Combat Prayer, Siphon Spirit and Aggressive Horn for buffs.

I will post back here with at least a screenshot or "hopefully" a video, if I can get Shadowplay to work on the PTS version. Peace Out

If you can do one with my build I'd be eternally grateful as I'm having trouble finding time to do this myself, it's basically the same as your idea but with Liquid Lightning and Force Pulse (instead of Velocious) to spam for instaprocs. Gear here.

Cuyler · February 2015

I set up my 1.6.3 sorc as I did in 1.5, that is

dps bar 1:
1 - inner light
2 - surge (now power surge instead of crit surge)
3 - ele drain
4 - ele ring
5 - force shock (now force pulse instead of crushing shock)
U - flawless dawnbreaker

Using 70 CPs, 0-62-0, 4pc Aether, 4pc Night's Silence and Soulshine jewelry w/potion time reduction I was pulling about 8-9k dps easily. That's without changing a thing. Problem is the Togglemancer build I test put out 10-11k dps without even trying/tweaking. Still have yet to test a stamina sorc build. Anyways, I'm still probably going to main my DK or NB at this point cause I'm not going to pets for comparable dps. Hopefully someone discovers the trick here and is nice enough to share.

A1exeR · February 2015

Alcast wrote: »

My friends have 13k DPS as sorcs. So I dunno what you guys do wrong. (that is approx for 40sec)

It is now one of the stronger classes, so why do you keep moaning about weak sorcs.

I want to hear how many dps have your DK, NB and Templar friends, because say only "My friends have 13k DPS as sorcs." is nothing. In 1.6.3 light armot get buff. The fact that sorc increase dps can only be associated with this.

Shlankwald · February 2015

I agree with most everything you say but.....

Your crystal fragments change is....ridiculous.
0.25 sec cast on a 2 sec knockdown?
75% chance to instant cast and cost 75% less mana?

If they were to do that there would need a be a cooldown chance for the instant cast for sure, thats a very high chance to reduce you magic cost to almost nothing and get a free knockdown in. I get not wanting to rely on RNG so much but damn

Vis · February 2015

Nefrast wrote: »

So did anybody actually spend some hours and tested the new sorcerer and other classes in-game and can post for example comparable DPS test results? I see much drama here but I miss such posts with hard numbers which should be a good basis for any discussion, should they not?

In the DPS results some nice people posted on Tamirel Foundry the (pet-less) sorcerer doesn't look worse then other classes.

The sorc looks good on paper. If allowed to dps without worrying about reflects and absorbs, sorcs look great. If sorcs are put in a pve situation and allowed to dps with no wasted time on spamming shields to live, they look good. If they don't have to spam bolt to stay alive against wrecking blow spam...then they look good.

But sorcs do not operate in vacuum. In pvp, four different skills have the power to individually turn our 10k dps to under 5k:

BOL
SCALES
DEFENSIVE-STANCE
ECLIPSE
CLOAK-SPAM

shuts down

CRYSTAL-FRAGMENTS
OVERLOAD
ALL-LIGHT-STAFF-ATTACKS
CRUSHING-SHOCK

It is frustrating because no other class has so many of their critical and class defining skills negated at once. The devs need to recognize the underlying issue with sorcs is that they have not considered thst so many counters exist against sorcs, most of us cannot use the skills and tools they intended to give us.

Lussura · February 2015

pppontus wrote: »

Exstazik wrote: »

I make Breton sorc v14 template on pts.Here is numbers without CP and food,with major buff.
[pics]

Even with breton who specialized on magicka build stamina>magicka

Your numbers for CF look crap. Mine is like 7,5K unbuffed (with a staff).

Anyway, while the whining has been going rampant here I took one hour and made a Sorc build without toggles that you can find here: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/1-6-sorceress-petless-by-pppontus-70-cp/

With combat prayer, buffs etc. and when I learn to play my rotation it should be at least 11-12K. This took me like 3-4 tests to come up with. Comparably Melee NB 10,5K and could be improved a little further, but is clearly harder to play due to melee blabla.

Also consider when you compare to DKs that they drop their Standard of Might increasing all their damage for 20 secs, if the fight is then not longer than 30 secs it's not representative for DKs. I suggest DKs use Shifting Standard for DPS tests as the results get horribly skewed otherwise.

Nefrast wrote: »

So did anybody actually spend some hours and tested the new sorcerer and other classes in-game and can post for example comparable DPS test results? I see much drama here but I miss such posts with hard numbers which should be a good basis for any discussion, should they not?

In the DPS results some nice people posted on Tamirel Foundry the (pet-less) sorcerer doesn't look worse then other classes.

The norm seems to be that about everyone there does around 10k sustained unbuffed dps. The dragonknight does 10-20% more but the fights were short and it should get closer to the same 10k if the fights are longer and the relative uptime of their ultimate decreases. Are those test results there wrong and people here have completely other numbers? Please post!

This is exactly what I've been saying for days without even having the opportunity to test it properly (templates) and then I logged on the PTS yesterday and spent a short time.. and came up with the petless build which works just fine. It's better than most classes at range for sure.

This is the laziest build I have ever seen. Damage numberS are completely off and lack real testing. This build is not functional. Tested this build on BloodSpawn....didn't pull 6k dps. Taking screenshots of your burst dps....doesn't make the build good.

I would need to see a quality test on BloodSpawn before considered this EVER. The fact your dps is over 5k lower than a Sorcerer togglemancer build and 6-7k lower than the other classes should tell you something.

pppontus · February 2015

Lussura wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Exstazik wrote: »

I make Breton sorc v14 template on pts.Here is numbers without CP and food,with major buff.
[pics]

Even with breton who specialized on magicka build stamina>magicka

Your numbers for CF look crap. Mine is like 7,5K unbuffed (with a staff).

Anyway, while the whining has been going rampant here I took one hour and made a Sorc build without toggles that you can find here: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/1-6-sorceress-petless-by-pppontus-70-cp/

With combat prayer, buffs etc. and when I learn to play my rotation it should be at least 11-12K. This took me like 3-4 tests to come up with. Comparably Melee NB 10,5K and could be improved a little further, but is clearly harder to play due to melee blabla.

Also consider when you compare to DKs that they drop their Standard of Might increasing all their damage for 20 secs, if the fight is then not longer than 30 secs it's not representative for DKs. I suggest DKs use Shifting Standard for DPS tests as the results get horribly skewed otherwise.

Nefrast wrote: »

So did anybody actually spend some hours and tested the new sorcerer and other classes in-game and can post for example comparable DPS test results? I see much drama here but I miss such posts with hard numbers which should be a good basis for any discussion, should they not?

In the DPS results some nice people posted on Tamirel Foundry the (pet-less) sorcerer doesn't look worse then other classes.

The norm seems to be that about everyone there does around 10k sustained unbuffed dps. The dragonknight does 10-20% more but the fights were short and it should get closer to the same 10k if the fights are longer and the relative uptime of their ultimate decreases. Are those test results there wrong and people here have completely other numbers? Please post!

This is exactly what I've been saying for days without even having the opportunity to test it properly (templates) and then I logged on the PTS yesterday and spent a short time.. and came up with the petless build which works just fine. It's better than most classes at range for sure.

This is the laziest build I have ever seen. Damage numberS are completely off and lack real testing. This build is not functional. Tested this build on BloodSpawn....didn't pull 6k dps. Taking screenshots of your burst dps....doesn't make the build good.

I would need to see a quality test on BloodSpawn before considered this EVER. The fact your dps is over 5k lower than a Sorcerer togglemancer build and 6-7k lower than the other classes should tell you something.

Oh, you're the one who posted on TF! That explains it.

What I said earlier is the issue here. Honestly, in 1.6 the Sorc DPS varies between 800-1200 (with some regular setup like aether/torug) entirely dependent on your own skill in weaving light attacks with one skill and keeping one buff up.

Here, it will vary much more because you have to use your skill to weave medium attacks with force pulse while keeping Liquid Lightning up and on the boss, also keeping Entropy up and weaving in Fragments when they proc. And you have to have the correct gear.

If you lack that skill and/or gear, you will not achieve the numbers. That does not mean a class is broken, it means you have to change your gear or get better.

I will do Bloodspawn once I have a chance (get 4 willing people on the PTS), but the difference is like 10-20 seconds and in my opinion you should get MORE DPS with a group than without as your tank will put Major Breach on, and you will be buffed with Combat Prayer (Minor Berserk) so your DPS should INCREASE rather than decrease.

rfennell_ESO · February 2015

Sacadon wrote: »

It would add credibility to the current state of affairs if those who run in serious PvE guilds would speak up and state "My guild will not take sorcs on trial runs because of X". I know of a few, but for obvious reasons I'm not naming them. Same BTW for guilds that do take sorcs and if/why they're successful.

The answer to your question is: They don't take sorcs because of dks.

Sorc dps on live is not terrible. You can do 1.2-1.3k dps, yes you can. It's probably the highest pure ranged magicka dps. If you have 2 sorcs in raid and both are dps and both end up in the downstairs phase of mantikora it's not a wipe; Sorcs can handle everything and do pretty well. A Sorc can reliably offheal as well, all while doing that dps. On paper they seem great, until you figure out how much more dps a dk can do.

The problem is dks do more, sure they need a closer range to do it and need more support. My guess is even for raiding guilds that have times in the top5 for every trial that some of the dks that took the sorc raid slots don't actually do the max dps. Some are taking the sorc slots on merit of being dks, and being there is no real way of telling what dps other people do and it's rather tedious (and easy to hide bad parses) to make people link dps every fight.... The perception is now the reality.

No one attempting speed runs will take a sorc if a dk can do 50% more dps or so (sometimes a lot more) They did when they actually need the negate (and early on negates). Fact is... you don't actually need the negates. Just like how many aa and hellra runs will solo veil things as well. but with all dks and banners melting things (and taking less damage while they are up) and the very broken (and being fixed on pts) ultimate generation it became less and less needed to bring classes with utility abilities.

The question for this particular sub forum is have those issues been mitigated?

pppontus · February 2015

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Sacadon wrote: »

It would add credibility to the current state of affairs if those who run in serious PvE guilds would speak up and state "My guild will not take sorcs on trial runs because of X". I know of a few, but for obvious reasons I'm not naming them. Same BTW for guilds that do take sorcs and if/why they're successful.

The answer to your question is: They don't take sorcs because of dks.

Sorc dps on live is not terrible. You can do 1.2-1.3k dps, yes you can. It's probably the highest pure ranged magicka dps. If you have 2 sorcs in raid and both are dps and both end up in the downstairs phase of mantikora it's not a wipe; Sorcs can handle everything and do pretty well. A Sorc can reliably offheal as well, all while doing that dps. On paper they seem great, until you figure out how much more dps a dk can do.

The problem is dks do more, sure they need a closer range to do it and need more support. My guess is even for raiding guilds that have times in the top5 for every trial that some of the dks that took the sorc raid slots don't actually do the max dps. Some are taking the sorc slots on merit of being dks, and being there is no real way of telling what dps other people do and it's rather tedious (and easy to hide bad parses) to make people link dps every fight.... The perception is now the reality.

No one attempting speed runs will take a sorc if a dk can do 50% more dps or so (sometimes a lot more) They did when they actually need the negate (and early on negates). Fact is... you don't actually need the negates. Just like how many aa and hellra runs will solo veil things as well. but with all dks and banners melting things (and taking less damage while they are up) and the very broken (and being fixed on pts) ultimate generation it became less and less needed to bring classes with utility abilities.

The question for this particular sub forum is have those issues been mitigated?

I agree with you 100%. This is really the issue on Live.

I believe these issues should largely be mitigated in 1.6, but it's impossible to say yet. DKs still do more DPS than other classes, I'd say 10% maybe, the gap has been decreased due to them going from 80% uptime on Standard of Might to 20% uptime. However I believe the reason for their higher DPS is because they have 0 utility. If they didn't pull more DPS, there would be no reason to take a DK over an NB with Veil, Templar with Nova or a Sorc with Negate (possibly not much reason anymore).

The question that remains is how much that extra DPS will be worth compared to utility in 1.6, especially now that you can't have a single NB keep the Veils up, or a single Sorc to suppress everything. Also the increased difficulty of AA/HR, I believe will lead to almost all groups keeping a good class balance, but the absolute top elite guilds that can cope with 0 utility might still be able to bring 9 DKs. We won't really know until we see the leaderboards after a month or so on live.

johnyeh87 · February 2015

This guy already made a post about this yesterday, which I called him out on what HE DID to make the spell damage become reduced and he deleted his post.... So here I go again... On the last 2 screenshots, the reason why he doesn't get that much increased spell damage with 1 slotted sorc ability is because he used a magicka potion for no sorc ability slotted and took a screenshot. Then he took another screenshot, which was probably before and added 1 sorc ability to increase the spell damage but not by a lot... This guy is trying to make it look like that 2% increased spell damage per sorc ability is not good at all, but he is altering his max magicka....

2nd last screenshot, HAS FOOD THAT INCREASES HIS MAGICKA
last screenshot, has NO food...
sadness

Jujujitsu · February 2015

Cuyler wrote: »

I set up my 1.6.3 sorc as I did in 1.5, that is

dps bar 1:
1 - inner light
2 - surge (now power surge instead of crit surge)
3 - ele drain
4 - ele ring
5 - force shock (now force pulse instead of crushing shock)
U - flawless dawnbreaker

Using 70 CPs, 0-62-0, 4pc Aether, 4pc Night's Silence and Soulshine jewelry w/potion time reduction I was pulling about 8-9k dps easily. That's without changing a thing. Problem is the Togglemancer build I test put out 10-11k dps without even trying/tweaking. Still have yet to test a stamina sorc build. Anyways, I'm still probably going to main my DK or NB at this point cause I'm not going to pets for comparable dps. Hopefully someone discovers the trick here and is nice enough to share.

Your test should be the poster child for this thread ... your build proves what is wrong with the situation in 1.6 ... how many sorcerer only spells do you have on your build .... Answer 1. That is PATHETIC. Once again any class can use the destruction staff or Mage's guild spells ... not just sorc. So our new "buff" Expert Mage nets you such a negligible bonus as to be silly and at the same time nerfs our spell cost by taking away the 10% cost reduction.

This is not an attack against you, I actually appreciate you posting your info... I am just saying it proves our point.

Lussura · February 2015

Shlankwald wrote: »

I agree with most everything you say but.....

Your crystal fragments change is....ridiculous.
0.25 sec cast on a 2 sec knockdown?
75% chance to instant cast and cost 75% less mana?

If they were to do that there would need a be a cooldown chance for the instant cast for sure, thats a very high chance to reduce you magic cost to almost nothing and get a free knockdown in. I get not wanting to rely on RNG so much but damn

The 75% chance to instant cast is a needed change. As of right now we can't count on the cast at all and in PVE no one runs CF because of this. As for the mana cost being less....the instant cast still costs too much.

Seeing as how you had such a issue with this change and no one else here playing Sorc does...you most likely don't play a Sorc. Therefore find a thread appropriate for your class.

Fayaburn · February 2015

Lussura wrote: »

Shlankwald wrote: »

I agree with most everything you say but.....

Your crystal fragments change is....ridiculous.
0.25 sec cast on a 2 sec knockdown?
75% chance to instant cast and cost 75% less mana?

If they were to do that there would need a be a cooldown chance for the instant cast for sure, thats a very high chance to reduce you magic cost to almost nothing and get a free knockdown in. I get not wanting to rely on RNG so much but damn

The 75% chance to instant cast is a needed change. As of right now we can't count on the cast at all and in PVE no one runs CF because of this. As for the mana cost being less....the instant cast still costs too much.

Seeing as how you had such a issue with this change and no one else here playing Sorc does...you most likely don't play a Sorc. Therefore find a thread appropriate for your class.

I posted an extensive response to your initial post giving feedback about your suggestions. I am not even sure you read it.
Yes, 75% chance to instant cast with 0.25s cast time is overpowered.
Yes, I main a Sorcerer in Teso.

Cuyler · February 2015

Jujujitsu wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

I set up my 1.6.3 sorc as I did in 1.5, that is

dps bar 1:
1 - inner light
2 - surge (now power surge instead of crit surge)
3 - ele drain
4 - ele ring
5 - force shock (now force pulse instead of crushing shock)
U - flawless dawnbreaker

Using 70 CPs, 0-62-0, 4pc Aether, 4pc Night's Silence and Soulshine jewelry w/potion time reduction I was pulling about 8-9k dps easily. That's without changing a thing. Problem is the Togglemancer build I test put out 10-11k dps without even trying/tweaking. Still have yet to test a stamina sorc build. Anyways, I'm still probably going to main my DK or NB at this point cause I'm not going to pets for comparable dps. Hopefully someone discovers the trick here and is nice enough to share.

Your test should be the poster child for this thread ... your build proves what is wrong with the situation in 1.6 ... how many sorcerer only spells do you have on your build .... Answer 1. That is PATHETIC. Once again any class can use the destruction staff or Mage's guild spells ... not just sorc. So our new "buff" Expert Mage nets you such a negligible bonus as to be silly and at the same time nerfs our spell cost by taking away the 10% cost reduction.

This is not an attack against you, I actually appreciate you posting your info... I am just saying it proves our point.

I agree. The change to Expert Mage is only beneficial to the pets class or in my case, my PvP build, where I tend to use more class skills. This was my PvE build (1st bar) and the change is definitely a nerf is this case. I forgot to mention in my original post that magicka management in 1.6.3 is horrendous compared to live currently. Now they've removed 10% cost reduction.

/facepalm

Dracane · February 2015

I agree. You have only mentioned a small part of the whole problem, but I agree.

But I must say, I don't really like your suggestions so much. ( but accept them)
I think, we must stay reasonable. Your crystal shard suggestion is a bit too much. We must decide, if we want the hard cast to be better ( reduce the cast time) or the utility (increased proc chance) However I doubt, anything of this is going to happen. Currently in pvp, daedric curse is the only thing that works.

Crystal shard and crushing shock (yes, I still use it. I don't let me force to use force pulse) are roll dodged alll the time or blocked. It's very hard for a Sorcerer in PvP. I don't know, why everyone says: Sorcerer is fine in PvP. In my opinion, PvP is our biggest weakness and problem. Our only problem in pve (and also pvp), is our low damage output compared to other classes.

Jujujitsu · February 2015

@pppontus I am having trouble taking your post seriously because of the angst you obviously feel against the people here complaining. It seems that your sole intent is to prove everyone else wrong and not to help the overall community.

From what you did post I will say that again ZoS has stated that CF is our main spammable dps spell. Your builds main dps comes from Heavy Attacks and Force Pulse ... both destruction staff skills that anyone can use. They total 39% of the total damage.

Where does the Sorc's main spammable spell come in at ..... CF = 7% .... again this is ridiculous. Your two piece set bonus from Mephala's Web came in at 6%? What does this say about our spammable dps spell?

We are stating that our class spells are WEAK and you are proving this. That anyone can take a sorc and do respectable damage using skills from other branches is not in question here ... the fact that most of our sorcerer abilities are not worth slotting is the point.

Your single target bar has how many Sorc spells on it .... Answer 2.
Your AOE bar has how many Sorc spells on it .................Answer 2.

These two sorc spells combined total 20% of your total damage vs 39% from Heavy Attack and Force Pulse. Liquid Lighting relies on the mob / player to be stationary to take full damage so it is situational at best. CF with a one second cast time is by far one of the easiest spells to block, dodge, or in the case of a DK reflect with their spammable flappity-flap.

So our new Expert Mage buff for slotting 2 spells is minimal and at the same time removed our spell cost reduction.

Lied · February 2015

Jujujitsu wrote: »

We are stating that our class spells are WEAK and you are proving this. That anyone can take a sorc and do respectable damage using skills from other branches is not in question here ... the fact that most of our sorcerer abilities are not worth slotting is the point.

That seems like more of a valid point by itself. What I've mostly read is sorcs complaining about crushing shock being a "sorc nerf" and shields being a "sorc nerf", so you can imagine why it might be hard to figure out which abilities your class really wants to focus on.

Nefrast · February 2015

Okay, so let me ignore the opinions, taunts, and arm chair theorizing, and for a moment just look at the factual evidence which was brought forward in this thread (thank you!). Then I take home the statement that altogether sorcerers are okay in comparison with other classes.

BTW, I am no native speaker but some of you people sound rather bitter. Life is so very short, if you do not enjoy your time in this game, why not choose something else to do? A stupid computer game is not worth to get upset about, there are better things you can do with your precious spare time, I am sure.