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1.6.3 Sorc Magicka Builds Still Ruined!!!
Lussura
✭✭✭
I am not the original poster of this thread. It was deleted by ZoS yesterday and the account holder banned. I re-posted this thread because I agree with the original poster.
TLDR: ZoS 1.6.3 Sorcerer fix...did nothing.
ZOS: STOP EDITING AND CHANGE MY POST. IT IS NOT OUT OF LINE WITH COMMUNITY STANDARDS. STOP TRYING TO SILENCE UNHAPPY PLAYERS TO MAKE A SERIOUS ISSUE LOOK LIKE A SMALL ONE. YOU WOULDN'T HAVE THIS ISSUE AT ALL HAD YOU BEEN REALLY LISTENING TO PLAYER FEEDBACK.
I am writing this post to express my serious concern for the well being of the traditional Sorcerer (IE Mage). Out of all the current 1.6 classes, we are by far considerably weaker. Zenimax developers your complete lack in balancing PvE content off PvP...shows simply how little you truly care. I am a paying customer and as such I pay for a service. One that with 1.6 is not in any way, shape, fashion, or form properly provided to me while playing the Sorcerer class. This is of course if you don't want to run a togglemancer build and spam cast 1 spell.
STOP BALANCING PVE BASED OFF PVP...END OF STORY. THE VAST MAJORITY OF YOUR PLAYERS ARE PVE BASED NOT PVP.
The 1.6.3 Sorcerer changes were lazy at best. Your lack of feedback, concern, and reassurances to your loyal community over Sorcerer concerns....was well unsettling. It proved once again you simply are not listening and will continue to go down a this path. Meanwhile Templar and Nightblade continue to get buffed...
Your players whom currently want to play a reliable Mage style character on the proper class...are sorely disappointed. Not only do we do massively less damage than any other class/build within the game... We are forced to endure continued class nerfs and deaf ears from the developers. I will start by going over the resent changes made to the Sorcerer class in 1.6.3, then we will address the major issues, and finally go over serious fixes that need to happen asap. Before we see players stop playing the Sorcerer class completely.
Lastly Sorcerers need a simply redesign effort put into them. You currently have the time and man power to do this. It needs to be a top issue to be worked on. Currently many Sorcerer spells aren't even used. The VAST majority of our 3 skill trees are simply worthless. Sorcerers need at least a few new spells that offer the class sustained damage throughout a encounter, without being completely reliant on burst dps or Force Pulse.
In short the Sorcerer class needs to be fixed before 1.6 goes live. If you plan to release 1.6 in it's current state...the gaming community I play with and myself... have sadly decided to find another game to play together. Your lack of effort and concern for these serious issues is to say the least....saddening.
I encourage all current and future Sorcerer players to vent their concerns within this thread. Whether you agree or not... until this is fixed in some form or fashion.... their should be riots in the streets, so to speak.
Patch notes for patch 1.6.3
Lightning Field : The duration of this ability has been increased from 4 to 6 seconds.
Lightning current (change of lightning field): The duration of this ability has been increased to 10 seconds, and removed the extra damage of the first match.
As you see from above. This is the laziest fix ever implemented in the history of mankind. This changes very little about this skill. As a matter of fact, it was nerfed... the extra damage on the first hit was it's one redeeming quality. However the duration increase, without a over all damage increase...still leaves this spell seriously lacking and over all more worthless than ever.
Magic Expert : Passive ability that has been changed. Now granted 2% magic force for each equipped magician ability rather than the cost of lightning spells to reduce by 10%.
This has to be the most silly fix implemented in a game thus far. While it is a over all good change...the spell power gained for each slotted Sorcerer spell is only 26 spell power. This means that even if you have all 6 slot filled, you will only gain 156 spell power. Which is simply laughable. Screenshots have been provided to show spell power changes. On the live stream Sorcerer players were informed we had a massive change to a passive granting us a large amount of additional spellpower. However this was simply a lie on the developers behalf. The spell power bonus per slotted Sorcerer spell should be at the very least 75 spell power. For a maximum bonus of 450 spell power. Which would have made a serious impact. However as it stands...it's currently just another worthless lazy change.
No Sorcerer Abilities Slotted and Basic PTS gear:
One Sorcerer Ability Slotted and Basic PTS gear:
With all this said. Changes are needed to improve Sorcerer magicka based damage. Crystal Fragments which is supposed to be our main damage spell...isn't even used in PVE or PVP. As it still takes too long to cast and the instant proc isn't reliable. Instead it is now Force Pulse spam. Crystal Fragments needs a serious change and to be frank... none of your player currently playing care what happened within PVP... so stop balancing based off it. Only a seriously small fraction of players play ESO to PVP. So it stands to reason, that you simply don't balance based off PVP.
Suggested Crystal Fragments Change:
Current Effect: Cast time 1.3 seconds. Deals XXXX Magic Damage to target and knocks down for 2 seconds. 35% chance to make your next use an instant cast and cost 50% less when activating ability with a Magicka cost.
New Effect: Cast time 0.25 seconds. Deals XXXX Magic Damage to target and knocks down for 2 seconds. 75% chance to make your next use an instant cast and cost 75% less when activating ability with a Magicka cost.
This is a EXTREMELY simply change, that makes the instant cast more reliable for Sorcerer dps. Which makes it once again worth casting.
Suggested Velocious Curse Change:
Current Effect: Target is cursed for 3.5 seconds. When effect completes target takes XXXX Magic Damage, and nearby enemies take XXXX Magic Damage. Only 1 curse may be active at a time.
New Effect:Target is cursed for 15.5 seconds. When effect completes target takes XXXX Magic Damage, and nearby enemies take XXXX Magic Damage. Curse may be applied up to 6 targets.
This is another simple change. Velicious Curse would deal more damage over a longer period of time. Provided sustained damage. Being able to be applied to multiple targets allows the spell to be far more effect in aoe situations as well .
Suggested Mages Wrath Change:
Current Effect: Deals XXXX Shock Damage to target. Explodes for an additional XXXX Shock Damage if the target falls below 20% health within 4 seconds. The explosion deals XXXX Shock Damage to enemies within a 4m radius of the target.
New Effect: Deals XXXX Shock Damage to target. Explodes for an additional XXXX Shock Damage if the target falls below 50% health within 4 seconds. The explosion deals XXXX Shock Damage to enemies within a 4m radius of the target.
This is a EXTREMELY simply change, that makes the execute more reliable for Sorcerer dps. Which makes it once again worth casting. This change makes the boss executable at 50% rather than 20%....it's that simple to fix.
Edited by Lussura on February 19, 2015 8:29PM TLDR: ZoS 1.6.3 Sorcerer fix...did nothing.
ZOS: STOP EDITING AND CHANGE MY POST. IT IS NOT OUT OF LINE WITH COMMUNITY STANDARDS. STOP TRYING TO SILENCE UNHAPPY PLAYERS TO MAKE A SERIOUS ISSUE LOOK LIKE A SMALL ONE. YOU WOULDN'T HAVE THIS ISSUE AT ALL HAD YOU BEEN REALLY LISTENING TO PLAYER FEEDBACK.
I am writing this post to express my serious concern for the well being of the traditional Sorcerer (IE Mage). Out of all the current 1.6 classes, we are by far considerably weaker. Zenimax developers your complete lack in balancing PvE content off PvP...shows simply how little you truly care. I am a paying customer and as such I pay for a service. One that with 1.6 is not in any way, shape, fashion, or form properly provided to me while playing the Sorcerer class. This is of course if you don't want to run a togglemancer build and spam cast 1 spell.
STOP BALANCING PVE BASED OFF PVP...END OF STORY. THE VAST MAJORITY OF YOUR PLAYERS ARE PVE BASED NOT PVP.
The 1.6.3 Sorcerer changes were lazy at best. Your lack of feedback, concern, and reassurances to your loyal community over Sorcerer concerns....was well unsettling. It proved once again you simply are not listening and will continue to go down a this path. Meanwhile Templar and Nightblade continue to get buffed...
Your players whom currently want to play a reliable Mage style character on the proper class...are sorely disappointed. Not only do we do massively less damage than any other class/build within the game... We are forced to endure continued class nerfs and deaf ears from the developers. I will start by going over the resent changes made to the Sorcerer class in 1.6.3, then we will address the major issues, and finally go over serious fixes that need to happen asap. Before we see players stop playing the Sorcerer class completely.
Lastly Sorcerers need a simply redesign effort put into them. You currently have the time and man power to do this. It needs to be a top issue to be worked on. Currently many Sorcerer spells aren't even used. The VAST majority of our 3 skill trees are simply worthless. Sorcerers need at least a few new spells that offer the class sustained damage throughout a encounter, without being completely reliant on burst dps or Force Pulse.
In short the Sorcerer class needs to be fixed before 1.6 goes live. If you plan to release 1.6 in it's current state...the gaming community I play with and myself... have sadly decided to find another game to play together. Your lack of effort and concern for these serious issues is to say the least....saddening.
I encourage all current and future Sorcerer players to vent their concerns within this thread. Whether you agree or not... until this is fixed in some form or fashion.... their should be riots in the streets, so to speak.
Patch notes for patch 1.6.3
Lightning Field : The duration of this ability has been increased from 4 to 6 seconds.
Lightning current (change of lightning field): The duration of this ability has been increased to 10 seconds, and removed the extra damage of the first match.
As you see from above. This is the laziest fix ever implemented in the history of mankind. This changes very little about this skill. As a matter of fact, it was nerfed... the extra damage on the first hit was it's one redeeming quality. However the duration increase, without a over all damage increase...still leaves this spell seriously lacking and over all more worthless than ever.
Magic Expert : Passive ability that has been changed. Now granted 2% magic force for each equipped magician ability rather than the cost of lightning spells to reduce by 10%.
This has to be the most silly fix implemented in a game thus far. While it is a over all good change...the spell power gained for each slotted Sorcerer spell is only 26 spell power. This means that even if you have all 6 slot filled, you will only gain 156 spell power. Which is simply laughable. Screenshots have been provided to show spell power changes. On the live stream Sorcerer players were informed we had a massive change to a passive granting us a large amount of additional spellpower. However this was simply a lie on the developers behalf. The spell power bonus per slotted Sorcerer spell should be at the very least 75 spell power. For a maximum bonus of 450 spell power. Which would have made a serious impact. However as it stands...it's currently just another worthless lazy change.
No Sorcerer Abilities Slotted and Basic PTS gear:
One Sorcerer Ability Slotted and Basic PTS gear:
With all this said. Changes are needed to improve Sorcerer magicka based damage. Crystal Fragments which is supposed to be our main damage spell...isn't even used in PVE or PVP. As it still takes too long to cast and the instant proc isn't reliable. Instead it is now Force Pulse spam. Crystal Fragments needs a serious change and to be frank... none of your player currently playing care what happened within PVP... so stop balancing based off it. Only a seriously small fraction of players play ESO to PVP. So it stands to reason, that you simply don't balance based off PVP.
Suggested Crystal Fragments Change:
Current Effect: Cast time 1.3 seconds. Deals XXXX Magic Damage to target and knocks down for 2 seconds. 35% chance to make your next use an instant cast and cost 50% less when activating ability with a Magicka cost.
New Effect: Cast time 0.25 seconds. Deals XXXX Magic Damage to target and knocks down for 2 seconds. 75% chance to make your next use an instant cast and cost 75% less when activating ability with a Magicka cost.
This is a EXTREMELY simply change, that makes the instant cast more reliable for Sorcerer dps. Which makes it once again worth casting.
Suggested Velocious Curse Change:
Current Effect: Target is cursed for 3.5 seconds. When effect completes target takes XXXX Magic Damage, and nearby enemies take XXXX Magic Damage. Only 1 curse may be active at a time.
New Effect:Target is cursed for 15.5 seconds. When effect completes target takes XXXX Magic Damage, and nearby enemies take XXXX Magic Damage. Curse may be applied up to 6 targets.
This is another simple change. Velicious Curse would deal more damage over a longer period of time. Provided sustained damage. Being able to be applied to multiple targets allows the spell to be far more effect in aoe situations as well .
Suggested Mages Wrath Change:
Current Effect: Deals XXXX Shock Damage to target. Explodes for an additional XXXX Shock Damage if the target falls below 20% health within 4 seconds. The explosion deals XXXX Shock Damage to enemies within a 4m radius of the target.
New Effect: Deals XXXX Shock Damage to target. Explodes for an additional XXXX Shock Damage if the target falls below 50% health within 4 seconds. The explosion deals XXXX Shock Damage to enemies within a 4m radius of the target.
This is a EXTREMELY simply change, that makes the execute more reliable for Sorcerer dps. Which makes it once again worth casting. This change makes the boss executable at 50% rather than 20%....it's that simple to fix.
15
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Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I really do like these changes that you suggest, and I do feel like some things need to be changed with Sorcerers as it is my current favorite class. The thing I'm worried about is our self healing. Is there any word on how Critical Surge functions yet?Valrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake0 -
Lussura✭✭✭I really do like these changes that you suggest, and I do feel like some things need to be changed with Sorcerers as it is my current favorite class. The thing I'm worried about is our self healing. Is there any word on how Critical Surge functions yet?
Currently it's on a 0.25 sec cool down. So until it's been removed...it's really not worth it.3 -
cozmon3c_ESO✭✭✭✭✭I don't agree with the velocious curse change, as it stands it's the only realiable burst that we have to catch the enemy off guard in pvp. It would be nice if we instead add another damage spell worth something instead. What could a sorc live without, oh yeah rune prison. Why don't we get a decent damage spell instead of that bs.Guild UMBRA Chapter Lead
~Leper Si -V14 Sorcerer~
Youtube Channel - Leper
https://www.youtube.com/user/TheCozmon3c/videos6 -
Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »I don't agree with the velocious curse change, as it stands it's the only realiable burst that we have to catch the enemy off guard in pvp. It would be nice if we instead add another damage spell worth something instead. What could a sorc live without, oh yeah rune prison. Why don't we get a decent damage spell instead of that bs.
What I'm really pushing for is a true DoT ability. Not like "Hits x damage every y seconds" like Lightning Splash, but more like "Does x damage over y amount of seconds" like burning from fire staves. I especially want this because of Valkyn Skoria, otherwise that helm isn't useful for sorcs at all, plus true-DoTs are useful.Valrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake1 -
Lussura✭✭✭cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »I don't agree with the velocious curse change, as it stands it's the only realiable burst that we have to catch the enemy off guard in pvp. It would be nice if we instead add another damage spell worth something instead. What could a sorc live without, oh yeah rune prison. Why don't we get a decent damage spell instead of that bs.
What I'm really pushing for is a true DoT ability. Not like "Hits x damage every y seconds" like Lightning Splash, but more like "Does x damage over y amount of seconds" like burning from fire staves. I especially want this because of Valkyn Skoria, otherwise that helm isn't useful for sorcs at all, plus true-DoTs are useful.
We desperately need a true DoT and far less burst spells. I frankly don't care about pvp. ZoS should be balancing off PVE 110% of the time. Then make changes PVP if absolutely needed.1 -
Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »I don't agree with the velocious curse change, as it stands it's the only realiable burst that we have to catch the enemy off guard in pvp. It would be nice if we instead add another damage spell worth something instead. What could a sorc live without, oh yeah rune prison. Why don't we get a decent damage spell instead of that bs.
What I'm really pushing for is a true DoT ability. Not like "Hits x damage every y seconds" like Lightning Splash, but more like "Does x damage over y amount of seconds" like burning from fire staves. I especially want this because of Valkyn Skoria, otherwise that helm isn't useful for sorcs at all, plus true-DoTs are useful.
We desperately need a true DoT and far less burst spells. I frankly don't care about pvp. ZoS should be balancing off PVE 110% of the time. Then make changes PVP if absolutely needed.
Amen to 110% of that post. I PvE about 20x more than I PvP, so I hate that they base balancing off of PvP more than PvE just because a couple people in Cyrodiil are whining.Valrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake5 -
Lussura✭✭✭Amen to 110% of that post. I PvE about 20x more than I PvP, so I hate that they base balancing off of PvP more than PvE just because a couple people in Cyrodiil are whining.
Yup....no one came to a Elder Scrolls game for it's PVP content lol. We all came for the PVE. If they say otherwise they lie. PVP content also won't support this game long term. It's something players do when they are bored or have nothing to do. Cyrodiil is sssooooo boring....it takes no skill to zerg pvp lol.2 -
Jahosefat✭✭✭✭Amen to 110% of that post. I PvE about 20x more than I PvP, so I hate that they base balancing off of PvP more than PvE just because a couple people in Cyrodiil are whining.
Yup....no one came to a Elder Scrolls game for it's PVP content lol. We all came for the PVE. If they say otherwise they lie. PVP content also won't support this game long term. It's something players do when they are bored or have nothing to do. Cyrodiil is sssooooo boring....it takes no skill to zerg pvp lol.
I disagree. PVP content provides years of entertainment while PVE content has to be regularly updated because it gets boring. PVP content is for the long haul. Look at any other successful mmo, what content hasn't changed for years and people are still playing it? Warsong gultch and arathi basin have no problem attracting loyal participants ~10 years on.... League of Legends, the most popular game on twitch, is basically a pure PVP game with a bot sim built in.Joeshock- AD NA AB Thorn Chill Sorc New Eden Low Sec Roamer
Fight not with monsters lest ye become one6 -
Lussura✭✭✭Amen to 110% of that post. I PvE about 20x more than I PvP, so I hate that they base balancing off of PvP more than PvE just because a couple people in Cyrodiil are whining.
Yup....no one came to a Elder Scrolls game for it's PVP content lol. We all came for the PVE. If they say otherwise they lie. PVP content also won't support this game long term. It's something players do when they are bored or have nothing to do. Cyrodiil is sssooooo boring....it takes no skill to zerg pvp lol.
I disagree. PVP content provides years of entertainment while PVE content has to be regularly updated because it gets boring. PVP content is for the long haul. Look at any other successful mmo, what content hasn't changed for years and people are still playing it? Warsong gultch and arathi basin have no problem attracting loyal participants ~10 years on.... League of Legends, the most popular game on twitch, is basically a pure PVP game with a bot sim built in.
I disagree. Look at World of Warcraft over 10 million players. You don't go to play it to pvp...you go to play it to raid. End of story. Years worth of information on this topic btw. PvP players are a very small minority.0 -
Jahosefat✭✭✭✭Amen to 110% of that post. I PvE about 20x more than I PvP, so I hate that they base balancing off of PvP more than PvE just because a couple people in Cyrodiil are whining.
Yup....no one came to a Elder Scrolls game for it's PVP content lol. We all came for the PVE. If they say otherwise they lie. PVP content also won't support this game long term. It's something players do when they are bored or have nothing to do. Cyrodiil is sssooooo boring....it takes no skill to zerg pvp lol.
I disagree. PVP content provides years of entertainment while PVE content has to be regularly updated because it gets boring. PVP content is for the long haul. Look at any other successful mmo, what content hasn't changed for years and people are still playing it? Warsong gultch and arathi basin have no problem attracting loyal participants ~10 years on.... League of Legends, the most popular game on twitch, is basically a pure PVP game with a bot sim built in.
I disagree. Look at World of Warcraft over 10 million players. You don't go to play it to pvp...you go to play it to raid. End of story. Years worth of information on this topic btw. PvP players are a very small minority.
Yeah, the PVE content of WoW has been continually updated with tons of varied systems while the sparse PVP content has maintained a healthy and dedicated community for years. And yes, people do go to WoW to PVP, what kind of a comment is that? Most of it centers around the arena, which has had very few updates but provides the foundation for a rich and highly competitive PVP community. Take a look at the league of legends twitch, by far the top watched game and it is almost all PVP. For the investment PVP pays off more in the long run than PVE. If you don't update PVE quick enough people will leave, and ZOS has stated the updates will slow. Building a solid PVP community will help eso in the long-run, ignoring it will not.Edited by Jahosefat on February 19, 2015 5:42AMJoeshock- AD NA AB Thorn Chill Sorc New Eden Low Sec Roamer
Fight not with monsters lest ye become one1 -
Lussura✭✭✭Amen to 110% of that post. I PvE about 20x more than I PvP, so I hate that they base balancing off of PvP more than PvE just because a couple people in Cyrodiil are whining.
Yup....no one came to a Elder Scrolls game for it's PVP content lol. We all came for the PVE. If they say otherwise they lie. PVP content also won't support this game long term. It's something players do when they are bored or have nothing to do. Cyrodiil is sssooooo boring....it takes no skill to zerg pvp lol.
I disagree. PVP content provides years of entertainment while PVE content has to be regularly updated because it gets boring. PVP content is for the long haul. Look at any other successful mmo, what content hasn't changed for years and people are still playing it? Warsong gultch and arathi basin have no problem attracting loyal participants ~10 years on.... League of Legends, the most popular game on twitch, is basically a pure PVP game with a bot sim built in.
I disagree. Look at World of Warcraft over 10 million players. You don't go to play it to pvp...you go to play it to raid. End of story. Years worth of information on this topic btw. PvP players are a very small minority.
Yeah, the PVE content of WoW has been continually updated with tons of varied systems while the sparse PVP content has maintained a healthy and dedicated community for years. And yes, people do go to WoW to PVP, what kind of a comment is that? Most of it centers around the arena, which has had very few updates but provides the foundation for a rich and highly competitive PVP community. Take a look at the league of legends twitch, by far the top watched game and it is almost all PVP. For the investment PVP pays off more in the long run than PVE. If you don't update PVE quick enough people will leave, and ZOS has stated the updates will slow. Building a solid PVP community will help eso in the long-run, ignoring it will not.
First off you are simply wrong and have seriously not looked up information. I highly advise using google.
Secondly, gonna say this as nice as I can. Didn't start this thread to get into discussion about PVP. If you'd like to talk shop about PVP simply find another thread. This thread is focusing on improving Sorcerers for 1.6 live and over all in PVE where they are currently the worst class. There are other threads for PVP please keep your comments in the right threads.
ThanksEdited by Lussura on February 19, 2015 5:49AM0 -
Vis✭✭✭✭✭
✭The reason so many more of us want a true DoT is because our bread and butter (cf) is reflected/absorbed more often than not. If they can change anything, at least cut the animation and travel time so it stops getting reflected on us in mid air. And make it so our enemies can't see our massive glowing hands announcing we intend to use it.Edited by Vis on February 19, 2015 5:59AMv14 Sorc Vae Exillis
v14 DK Costs
v14 NB 'Vis
v14 Temp Fiat Lux2 -
Jahosefat✭✭✭✭Amen to 110% of that post. I PvE about 20x more than I PvP, so I hate that they base balancing off of PvP more than PvE just because a couple people in Cyrodiil are whining.
Yup....no one came to a Elder Scrolls game for it's PVP content lol. We all came for the PVE. If they say otherwise they lie. PVP content also won't support this game long term. It's something players do when they are bored or have nothing to do. Cyrodiil is sssooooo boring....it takes no skill to zerg pvp lol.
I disagree. PVP content provides years of entertainment while PVE content has to be regularly updated because it gets boring. PVP content is for the long haul. Look at any other successful mmo, what content hasn't changed for years and people are still playing it? Warsong gultch and arathi basin have no problem attracting loyal participants ~10 years on.... League of Legends, the most popular game on twitch, is basically a pure PVP game with a bot sim built in.
I disagree. Look at World of Warcraft over 10 million players. You don't go to play it to pvp...you go to play it to raid. End of story. Years worth of information on this topic btw. PvP players are a very small minority.
Yeah, the PVE content of WoW has been continually updated with tons of varied systems while the sparse PVP content has maintained a healthy and dedicated community for years. And yes, people do go to WoW to PVP, what kind of a comment is that? Most of it centers around the arena, which has had very few updates but provides the foundation for a rich and highly competitive PVP community. Take a look at the league of legends twitch, by far the top watched game and it is almost all PVP. For the investment PVP pays off more in the long run than PVE. If you don't update PVE quick enough people will leave, and ZOS has stated the updates will slow. Building a solid PVP community will help eso in the long-run, ignoring it will not.
First off you are simply wrong and have seriously not looked up information. I highly advise using google.
Secondly, gonna say this as nice as I can. Didn't start this thread to get into discussion about PVP. If you'd like to talk shop about PVP simply find another thread. This thread is focusing on improving Sorcerers for 1.6 live and over all in PVE where they are currently the worst class. There are other threads for PVP please keep your comments in the right threads.
Thanks
You are the one who brought up "Yup....no one came to a Elder Scrolls game for it's PVP content lol. " not me, so you are the one who brought it into this thread. Well, me and a bunch of other people came to ESO for PVP so you sir are wrong. And what is wrong with the rest of my statement? That WoW has had a PVP community for ~10 years with very little updates to support it? That is 100% correct. That LoL is the most popular twitch channel and it is primarily a PVP game? Go check it out. The rest is my opinion, which I am completely within my rights to express in the forums.Joeshock- AD NA AB Thorn Chill Sorc New Eden Low Sec Roamer
Fight not with monsters lest ye become one1 -
Snit✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yup....no one came to a Elder Scrolls game for it's PVP content lol.
I came for both. I'm long-time fan of The Elder Scrolls (heck, I even played Redguard and Battlespire). I also noticed, when this game was in development, that key members of the DAOC team had migrated to ZOS. That was a huge selling point for myself and others I know.
Few games get overland PvP right. It has a fan base.Edited by Snit on February 19, 2015 6:52AMSnit AD Sorc
Ratbag AD Warden Tank
Goblins AD Stamblade0 -
Irista✭✭I'm more of a PvE person in general. The PvP aspect of ESO is a nice change of pace if I'm feeling bored. Although there is a player base for both sides, 'balancing' skills based almost solely off PvP testing (and criers..) is a bit.. well.. it makes me throw my hands up.
Generally I go into a delve and my roll is to .."Hey Irista! Adds!!!! DPS THE FREAKING ADDS!" So in we go. The 1.6 patch (and minimal changes they have made so far) have done nothing really to help us keep a needful role in delves. For lack of better terms - running a togglemancer is not going to give me the ability to run abilities support both AOE and single target DPS. Most boss fights have adds and require DPS to dispatch of them quickly. i.e Bogden in Elden Hollow as an off-the-cuff example that just came to mind. Sending in melee pets to dispatch of adds and having them run through fire.. yes.. awesome.
Edit: Not to mention - to NOT be a togglemancer.. and run nothing but sorc skills to get the spell power buff - well, give me some skills to use. Nearly every sorc with a brain will tell you that we probably use only 1/3 of the class skills. All of our skills we pull from are from the mages guild and weapon skills.
Personally I do not feel confident doing my job as a DPS if I'm having to rely on pets. They die. Often. The pet mechanics in ESO unfortunately don't give us much control on where they go, and what they do. They have their own threat table. Running into a delve where my pet could taunt a boss and spin it to breathe fire on the raid isn't going to help keep you a raid spot.
No one wants to be 'that guy' who keeps getting people one-shot by a boss frontal cone effect.
So I watched the livestream they did on Friday. Where they were going to announce some 'significant changes' to the sorcerer class. Okay.. in pretty much every situation where there are adds, we want them to get down quickly right? The spell power bonus from the passive ability does not make up enough damage difference. (In comparison to running impulse currently in live). Giving the lightning puddle a longer duration isn't going to help that DPS race that we are always facing.
I was really expecting a more beefy buff to our class. At this point I'm on the edge of my seat debating my choice I made a year ago at trying out a 'true caster' class for the first time in my MMO playing career. Perhaps I should have rolled a templar and stuck to healing like I've always done.
Let's not get me started on how terrible healing as a sorc in 1.6 is. I'm just not going to go there....
Edited by Irista on February 19, 2015 7:49AM@Irista - Max Clothier/Woodworker - "I craft for smiles! (and tips! ;D )"
Renwyn Delau - VR14 Magicka Sorceror
The Black Hand - Ebonheart Pact
Treasurer
blackhandgaming.net3 -
Tanis-Stormbinder✭✭✭✭✭@Lussura great suggestion lets hope someone is listening. Another easy fix is to bump up the Magic Expert Passive ability.0 -
A1exeR✭✭✭I dont know about others classes but sorc have many unuseful skills. Why devs give us control (rune prison, encase) if they dont need nowhere.
Many mobs (not only boss) have immune to control, others can use break free. Maybe in PvP need control with castime 1.5s, when player can use break free? I dont think.
A lot of game have control skills and they useful. For example WoW, in raid you can kill trash pack without control.
Here we have no-brain AOE tactic.
IF YOU GIVE US CONTROL, CHANGE GAME MECHANIC THAT THERE WAS A USEFUL OR DELETE THIS STUPID SKILLS AND GIVE US NORMAL
Then Dark Exchange.
Because it channeling it is very bad. When we use it in PvE we lose a lot of dps and do not get a lot of resources. Morf for stamina give less stamina and drain more magica then other morf for magica. Why? Discrimination stamina build?
Change skill, dont need channeling. Maybe buff that give us regeneration hp and magica and degeneration stamina for some time. Maybe retain channeling but give more resources for one tic.
Mages Fury.
I love this skill, all sorc love, because all use them for execute phase. But morf.. they stupid. Give at least one that will give something useful for killing bosses. Only newcomers need such useless morfs.
For example, each explosion give us magica, not only we kill someone. Or maybe some morf Mages Fury can stuck some debuff that increase Mages Fury damage or damage all shock skills.
Surge.
Before 1.6 all sorc use surge, but now you killed this skill. When you change in 1.6.3 Expert Mage passive you made it even worse. It is very expensive compared with the entropy but gives similar buff. Change it, give more then heal with crit hits or cut at half the cost.
I will not talk about our little dps, all know about this.Edited by A1exeR on February 19, 2015 8:23AM3 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭A little something that makes the expert mage passive even more laughable than it already is: With 1.6.3 spellpower (and weapondmg respectively) have a smaller impact on dmg than before whereas the scaling for magica (stamina) has been increased.
This means for set bonuses its better to aim for max magica than spelldmg. Having less spelldmg as a result makes a % based passive even worse.
It has to be the most obvious nerf that was disguised as a buff i´ve seen so far.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 509 -
DezIsDead✭✭✭✭I don't agree with all your changes however I agree the sorc needs buffed or completely reworked bad. The change "magic expert" really is silly and doesn't boost our dps at all. I think ZOS made the sorc class with the idea of making it more of a CC class and support. But their is little to no use for that type of role in ESO atm. On the PvP side our "CC" is lackluster compared to DK talons. We do get streak but again it's easy to break free and take that CC immunity. They made a class with a role in mind that no one needs. I mean rune prison... Seriously who uses it? Velocious curse, crystal frags, and mages wrath/endless fury are the only offensive skills most sorcs use because the rest are crap. Encase was ok, now it's crap because the time to cast is too long. Surge is great to boost wpn cgm or spell dmg and class Sheilds are ok. Everyone else asks for a self heal, I agree one would be nice, however I can live without one if they would make it so the sorc is a glass cannon instead of a glass flower. Seriously our dps is bad, our survivabilty is meh without shields. We can't be super effective healers, and they changed it so negate isn't even useful half the time anymore.
FYI I mean if using class skills. You can make a decent dps build using staves, or even 2h but then you run into stam issues. We shouldn't be pigeon holed to run almost all wpn abilities, class skills should be viable not garbageEdited by DezIsDead on February 19, 2015 9:17AMDez Is Dead vr16 AD Sorc
Rez Dez vr16 DC sorc
Aimer Cantentius VR16 DC NB AKA Needs Vigor
Vanreimus Comeback DC DK
Ihealedurmum VR8 AD temp
Unonti VR crafting sloot
Zoschasedawaymyfweinds EP Temp5 -
Dimillian✭✭✭I tested my char yesterday on PTS. I still do 10K damage with 1 pet, degeneration, daedric prey, ward, force pulse and crystal fragment. I actually like the new play style, I switch bar a lot and it's a lot less boring than a purely crushing shock build. (70 CP)
Also to note; force pulse do 10% more damage than crushing shock.
THE BIG PROBLEM IS solo survivability, I can do one target tanking/dps, thanks degeneration, but for solo AOE fight in upper craglorn I find it very hard and magicka intensive to stay alive. You need to keep empowered ward up at ALL time because sorc have 0, yes 0 abilities to self heal. Surge was awesome with spell crit, now that I gear for spell damage + the useless surge cooldown, it's 100% useless, I can't self heal enough to stay alive.
On the bright side, you can stack AOE and do a lot of DPS, thundering presence, pulsar, lighting splash, and more. But you your shield go down, you're dead. (This is not new, but with the increase radius and duration of lighting splash/thundering presence, it's fun)
So, instead of endless debate on how sorc is broken, because yeah, it's kinda broken, I can no longer tank 25 mobs with AOE + surge in a ROBE, can we discuss on how we plan to bring a good survivability and DPS back? Obviously ZOS is gonna make some changes, but for 1.7 I believe, 1.6 is done.
10-12K DPS on single target is not bad.Edited by Dimillian on February 19, 2015 9:03AM1 -
Gyudan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭A little something that makes the expert mage passive even more laughable than it already is: With 1.6.3 spellpower (and weapondmg respectively) have a smaller impact on dmg than before whereas the scaling for magica (stamina) has been increased.
This means for set bonuses its better to aim for max magica than spelldmg. Having less spelldmg as a result makes a % based passive even worse.
It has to be the most obvious nerf that was disguised as a buff i´ve seen so far.
@Derra: I checked and I don't see any change.
The formula is still:
Damage = (10.46*Spell Damage + Max Magicka) * COEFF
1 spell damage is still worth 10.46 max magicka for pure damage purposes.Wololo.2 -
Dimillian✭✭✭I tested my char yesterday on PTS. I still do 10K damage with 1 pet, degeneration, daedric prey, ward, force pulse and crystal fragment. I actually like the new play style, I switch bar a lot and it's a lot less boring than a purely crushing shock build. (70 CP)
Also to note; force pulse do 10% more damage than crushing shock.
THE BIG PROBLEM IS solo survivability, I can do one target tanking/dps, thanks degeneration, but for solo AOE fight in upper craglorn I find it very hard and magicka intensive to stay alive. You need to keep empowered ward up at ALL time because sorc have 0, yes 0 abilities to self heal. Surge was awesome with spell crit, now that I gear for spell damage + the useless surge cooldown, it's 100% useless, I can't self heal enough to stay alive.
On the bright side, you can stack AOE and do a lot of DPS, thundering presence, pulsar, lighting splash, and more. But you your shield go down, you're dead. (This is not new, but with the increase radius and duration of lighting splash/thundering presence, it's fun)
So, instead of endless debate on how sorc is broken, because yeah, it's kinda broken, I can no longer tank 25 mobs with AOE + surge in a ROBE, can we discuss on how we plan to bring a good survivability and DPS back? Obviously ZOS is gonna make some changes, but for 1.7 I believe, 1.6 is done.
10-12K DPS on single target is not bad.
FYI. NB has no selfheals exept swallow and path, if you can say hot is selfheal. its bad. And NB has no class shield, cloak is a mess, no awesomestreak. I can solo tank boss with one hand as sorc. maybe you have problem to understand how.
Firstly I'm speaking of sorcerer, I have a LVL27 NB, I can't say how to play them endgame.
Second, as I said it clearly, I have no problem doing 10-12K solo on any boss. The only problem I have is magicka and survivability in large AOE group. I play my sorc since day 1, I know how the class works and what I should except. Before 1.6 I was able to solo anything, sure thing, it was not an intended mechanism, that why they decided to nerf surge. Now I'm trying to find another way to do that. That's it. I'm not talking about NB or my inability to play my class effectively.
Thank you.
1 -
DezIsDead✭✭✭✭I tested my char yesterday on PTS. I still do 10K damage with 1 pet, degeneration, daedric prey, ward, force pulse and crystal fragment. I actually like the new play style, I switch bar a lot and it's a lot less boring than a purely crushing shock build. (70 CP)
Also to note; force pulse do 10% more damage than crushing shock.
THE BIG PROBLEM IS solo survivability, I can do one target tanking/dps, thanks degeneration, but for solo AOE fight in upper craglorn I find it very hard and magicka intensive to stay alive. You need to keep empowered ward up at ALL time because sorc have 0, yes 0 abilities to self heal. Surge was awesome with spell crit, now that I gear for spell damage + the useless surge cooldown, it's 100% useless, I can't self heal enough to stay alive.
On the bright side, you can stack AOE and do a lot of DPS, thundering presence, pulsar, lighting splash, and more. But you your shield go down, you're dead. (This is not new, but with the increase radius and duration of lighting splash/thundering presence, it's fun)
So, instead of endless debate on how sorc is broken, because yeah, it's kinda broken, I can no longer tank 25 mobs with AOE + surge in a ROBE, can we discuss on how we plan to bring a good survivability and DPS back? Obviously ZOS is gonna make some changes, but for 1.7 I believe, 1.6 is done.
10-12K DPS on single target is not bad.
FYI. NB has no selfheals exept swallow and path, if you can say hot is selfheal. its bad. And NB has no class shield, cloak is a mess, no awesomestreak. I can solo tank boss with one hand as sorc. maybe you have problem to understand how.
Kypho can you please not derail the topic by insulting people and trying to pull the topic to NB's. Yes NB needs their cloak fixed, we all know this and have known it. It's on ZOS to fix it. Derailing a thread and attacking people isn't going to generate anything positive. Sorc can still be a decent dps class, but not by using class skills. That's the problem, our class skills have and continue to suck.Dez Is Dead vr16 AD Sorc
Rez Dez vr16 DC sorc
Aimer Cantentius VR16 DC NB AKA Needs Vigor
Vanreimus Comeback DC DK
Ihealedurmum VR8 AD temp
Unonti VR crafting sloot
Zoschasedawaymyfweinds EP Temp2 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Strange. Have not checked formulas (admittedly) - has to do sth with champ system passive magica increase then.
With high champ points spent i get more out of a magica set bonus than a spelldmg one. Lead me to the wrong conclusions.
That said: The champ system imho is a complete clusterf*** in terms of balancing and will come to haunt the developers about 3 months after it goes live leading to endless balance complaints and nerfs followed by nerfs.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
Jujujitsu✭✭I agree @Derra. From my limited previous testing it appeared that max magicka affected my damage more than my spell power. So when I saw the change to Expert Mage I didn't think it would be that great. I waited until 1.6.3 came out and I have to say that it is majorly underwhelming. At this stage it looks like I will not be changing my build around to take advantage of this passive. So for my sorc it is a major nerf ... because I lost the spell cost reduction and got nothing in return.
I watched ESO live and they stated several times that they are talking with members of the community to help them with changes and I really do have to wonder just "who" is talking for the sorcs?
To "help us" ZoS:- made the magicka build that is dependant on light armor super squishy, then you nerfed our pvp bubbles.
- nerfed the worst class self heal in game ... I'm a ranged magicka user and not a melee aoe staff spammer.
- determined that I have one dps staple in CS, gave it an unreliable insta-cast proc. It is reflected more than it hits.
- gave me a laughable passive to increase spell damage when max magicka is a more viable dps increase.
- took away my spell cost reduction making me more dependant on light armor usage. (see first point)
- nerfed the negate ultimate, which I am pretty much required to have on my bar to help my group.
On top of all this, and as far as I know, we are the only class that has a skill with a timer on it to increase it's cost when spammed. You think that is fair? Put that timer on some of the other classes skills and see what they say!
I created this character so I could be a magic user, a mage, but most of my class skills sit unused as abilities from other areas outshine my own. I am not giving up on my sorc, but I have to admit that it feels like "the red-headed step child" right about now.6 -
angelyn✭✭✭✭I'm more of a PvE person in general. The PvP aspect of ESO is a nice change of pace if I'm feeling bored. Although there is a player base for both sides, 'balancing' skills based almost solely off PvP testing (and criers..) is a bit.. well.. it makes me throw my hands up.
Generally I go into a delve and my roll is to .."Hey Irista! Adds!!!! DPS THE FREAKING ADDS!" So in we go. The 1.6 patch (and minimal changes they have made so far) have done nothing really to help us keep a needful role in delves. For lack of better terms - running a togglemancer is not going to give me the ability to run abilities support both AOE and single target DPS. Most boss fights have adds and require DPS to dispatch of them quickly. i.e Bogden in Elden Hollow as an off-the-cuff example that just came to mind. Sending in melee pets to dispatch of adds and having them run through fire.. yes.. awesome.
Edit: Not to mention - to NOT be a togglemancer.. and run nothing but sorc skills to get the spell power buff - well, give me some skills to use. Nearly every sorc with a brain will tell you that we probably use only 1/3 of the class skills. All of our skills we pull from are from the mages guild and weapon skills.
Personally I do not feel confident doing my job as a DPS if I'm having to rely on pets. They die. Often. The pet mechanics in ESO unfortunately don't give us much control on where they go, and what they do. They have their own threat table. Running into a delve where my pet could taunt a boss and spin it to breathe fire on the raid isn't going to help keep you a raid spot.
No one wants to be 'that guy' who keeps getting people one-shot by a boss frontal cone effect.
So I watched the livestream they did on Friday. Where they were going to announce some 'significant changes' to the sorcerer class. Okay.. in pretty much every situation where there are adds, we want them to get down quickly right? The spell power bonus from the passive ability does not make up enough damage difference. (In comparison to running impulse currently in live). Giving the lightning puddle a longer duration isn't going to help that DPS race that we are always facing.
I was really expecting a more beefy buff to our class. At this point I'm on the edge of my seat debating my choice I made a year ago at trying out a 'true caster' class for the first time in my MMO playing career. Perhaps I should have rolled a templar and stuck to healing like I've always done.
Let's not get me started on how terrible healing as a sorc in 1.6 is. I'm just not going to go there....
I think this really sums up how I feel. The only role most groups will accept a sorcerer in is DPS. I feel that with how useless crit surge is now,I don't know how I'm supposed to DPS in PVE. As you say many situations require you to kill things FAST. I am now in a situation where I don't feel I have an effective AOE strategy.
FEEDBACK- AOE IN DUNGEONS WON'T BE UP TO THE JOB.- Basically crit surge/la nerf forces kiting and targeting mobs one by one,as we can't heal and die quickly.
- My alternative now is pets, who have no effective AOE attack and stand in flames. Guess how long my twilight lasted in a dungeon last night in the fight..just guess..about 3 seconds!Thst was on live where she has more health!And that's ignoring how pets interact with bosses and heals.(But hey I was trying to adapt to my new..."build")
- My new alternative is to hope the enemies group together,throw a shattering prison?and then a lightning splash?
So,basically I don't see how I'm supposed to take down multiple targets quickly and effectively enough to be asked back into a group,to perform the only role anyone will accept my class in- DPS. Perhaps an expert player can do it but average Joe over here will probably give up and shelve the sorc/game. And I suspect that many average joes in the game will feel like me, just no idea how to be useful with their class anymore. So Im going to try out whatever magicka build I can to try and continue playing this class. However, if the only effective builds for the class are so difficult to master than eg 80% of players won't be able to master it, then that's not a good sign.Edited by angelyn on February 19, 2015 8:09PM1 -
Nutronic✭✭✭Seriously miss the LoL button...
Any who, on topic:
As a player from launch who took a short break and came back I'm just getting into endgame content and for me I played my class very hybrid. I use mostly stamina and go 2H and when in groups I prefer to tank. I took up the staff at VR1 for RP/PVP purposes and have found it moderately effective in both with very low magicka. That being said, I could be selfish and view everything done to the sorcerer so far as a buff for the specific way I play; Deadric Tank but that wouldn't be fair to all the DPSers or Healing sorcs out there.
In my time of playing I've found that the deadric summoning tree is more for survival/damage mitigation. I can just go full tank with my clannfear and slowly make my way through craglorn all by myself with no need for a self-heal spell. Just shields and pots. I don't like RNG so I don't even bother with crit and try to build as much pure flat damage and reduction into all my offensive abilities...
Long story short, I personally think people should just mess around a bit more before complaining the class is broken. I've been on PTS and seen full summon damage and it was just "meh" but as far as my personal playstyle/tanking goes MAJOR BUFF. Am I sad to see my Overload DPS and sustain drop in PVE? Absolutely, but if I decide to pick up a staff and blast things with crystal shard/lighting splash I still get out the DPS I need to do. Realistically it's gear dependent any away, and the only way to really get ZOS to listen and make the changes you want is to simply play then say: "see, it doesn't work.
TL;DR: I'm just getting to endgame content so take what I say with a grain of salt. I just want to point out that I can run all the VR dungeons beyond my level and my custom way of playing still works fine for me. If the way some people want to play sorc doesn't work for them any more then maybe they should adapt, or actually play it and provide in-game feedback. /2cents0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seriously miss the LoL button...
Any who, on topic:
As a player from launch who took a short break and came back I'm just getting into endgame content and for me I played my class very hybrid. I use mostly stamina and go 2H and when in groups I prefer to tank. I took up the staff at VR1 for RP/PVP purposes and have found it moderately effective in both with very low magicka. That being said, I could be selfish and view everything done to the sorcerer so far as a buff for the specific way I play; Deadric Tank but that wouldn't be fair to all the DPSers or Healing sorcs out there.
In my time of playing I've found that the deadric summoning tree is more for survival/damage mitigation. I can just go full tank with my clannfear and slowly make my way through craglorn all by myself with no need for a self-heal spell. Just shields and pots. I don't like RNG so I don't even bother with crit and try to build as much pure flat damage and reduction into all my offensive abilities...
Long story short, I personally think people should just mess around a bit more before complaining the class is broken. I've been on PTS and seen full summon damage and it was just "meh" but as far as my personal playstyle/tanking goes MAJOR BUFF. Am I sad to see my Overload DPS and sustain drop in PVE? Absolutely, but if I decide to pick up a staff and blast things with crystal shard/lighting splash I still get out the DPS I need to do. Realistically it's gear dependent any away, and the only way to really get ZOS to listen and make the changes you want is to simply play then say: "see, it doesn't work.
TL;DR: I'm just getting to endgame content so take what I say with a grain of salt. I just want to point out that I can run all the VR dungeons beyond my level and my custom way of playing still works fine for me. If the way some people want to play sorc doesn't work for them any more then maybe they should adapt, or actually play it and provide in-game feedback. /2cents
Whole discussion about sorcs is and has always been about endgame (NOT vr dungeons) pve and high level pvp (Edit: The kind of content where you have to compare your class and build to the things other classes can achieve - i can solo craglorn with two abilities on my bar).
What you´re basically saying is: I don´t have a clue what you´re all talking about but maybe you need to l2p (with a grain of salt).
I missing the lol button too now.Edited by Derra on February 19, 2015 10:12AM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 504 -
Palidon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lussura's time and effort on this thread is nothing less than outstanding. The comments Lussura made hit the mark. Since the roll out of 1.6 and before there have been 100's of posts from Sorcerer players complaining and making suggestion on how to fix the class. Problem is ZOS has not listened to the Sorcerer players in the past and is not listening now. This is most evident by the roll out of 1.6, and its changes to the Sorcerer class which instead of making the class better and more competitive have made it worse. Sorcerer players have three options open to them at this point. 1. Put up with the crap and try to play their Sorcerer class character the best way they can. 2. Roll another class character. 3. Leave the game.5 -
DezIsDead✭✭✭✭Sorry to post again, but a lot of other threads are saying people need to adapt and use pets etc. got it, pets make higher dps now, but what other class has to fill t4 slots of their bar (unless you want to toggle the. On every weapon swap) and be gimped into 1 build to pull the necessary DPS to be viable? I get it, some classes have to slot ability "x" or ability "y" to maximize DPS output. But they can be diverse. Sorc atm on pts has "the pet build", which doesn't fit my play style, I'm not willing to use, and honestly I think are silly. So I'll play my NB or my Templar unless ZOS makes the necessary changes to sorc. The most revealing thing to me was when they were doing the live show a few weeks ago, and asked the devs about the sorc class. In reply they said "they have the pet builds which is fun". I don't want my class to be a novelty. Sorry, not my play style.Dez Is Dead vr16 AD Sorc
Rez Dez vr16 DC sorc
Aimer Cantentius VR16 DC NB AKA Needs Vigor
Vanreimus Comeback DC DK
Ihealedurmum VR8 AD temp
Unonti VR crafting sloot
Zoschasedawaymyfweinds EP Temp1
This discussion has been closed.