So I did a quick comparison...

DDuke

PTS Templates, one is a Breton Sorc with all points in magicka, another an Imperial NB with all points in stamina. Both have 3600 CPs allocated.

Sorc is wearing light armour template gear, while NB is wearing the medium one.





Harnened Ward=1953 magicka, 17792 dmg shield
Surprise Attack=1502 stamina, 6020 dmg
Soul Harvest=Ultimate, 9929 dmg

Amount of resources it takes to break a shield: 3 Surprise Attacks (4506 stamina) or Soul Harvest (ulti)+2 Surprise Attacks (3004 stamina)

Amount of time it takes to break a shield: 3 Surprise Attacks = 3,9 seconds minimum, Soul Harvest+2 Surprise Attacks=3,9 seconds minimum

If you don't happen to be NB, but are using DW: 4 Flying Blades, 5056 Stamina, 5,2 seconds.

To add to my findings, I managed to reach 1338 magicka regen with my template character wearing 7/7 Aether etc, which means I could refresh the shield every 2,6 seconds without ever going below 100% magicka .


Can anyone else see the problem?


Here's how balanced PvP currently is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GAfb5V5zjo

Note how I'm using a template character, no potions & I stay at 100% magicka.

I kill my opponent by heavy attacking alone, and this is the second time I play with a dmg shield (complete shield noob here).

This has been the case in pretty much every fight in PTS, where I don't get one shot by 132k Silver Bolts or 88k Razor Caltrops.

david.haypreub18_ESO

I can see the problem, but how much does the 3,600 CPs you've spent affect the issue?

Ezareth

Maybe you should also point out that you put three legendary magicka cost reduction enchants on your sorc but didn't use the corresponding enchants on your NB.

Derra

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Maybe you should also point out that you put three legendary magicka cost reduction enchants on your sorc but didn't use the corresponding enchants on your NB.

Hahahahaha.

You made my day. Lovely.

Also he fails to mention that there is a way to scale dmg apart from max stat but for shields there is not.

AriBoh

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Maybe you should also point out that you put three legendary magicka cost reduction enchants on your sorc but didn't use the corresponding enchants on your NB.

Reducing the cost wont make them do anymore damage, so the ultimate results on time taken don't change.

Ezareth

Derra wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Maybe you should also point out that you put three legendary magicka cost reduction enchants on your sorc but didn't use the corresponding enchants on your NB.

Hahahahaha.

You made my day. Lovely.

Also he fails to mention that there is a way to scale dmg apart from max stat but for shields there is not.

I actually made a mistake, he is using the full Light armor passive bonus, sorc passives, breton passive and -15.8% reduction max champion bonus.

There *is* a champion point allocation that increases shield strength but that is besides the point.

I know next to nothing about NB abilities but I'm guessing that Surprise attack is not a staple attack that people are using as their primary damage ability and is more of a utility ability.

Soul Harvest is magic damage and not physical and thus doesn't receive nearly as many bonuses as a physical attack would.

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Maybe you should also point out that you put three legendary magicka cost reduction enchants on your sorc but didn't use the corresponding enchants on your NB.

Reducing the cost wont make them do anymore damage, so the ultimate results on time taken don't change.

Magicka damage ultimate on a Stamina NB isn't going to be as effective.

Maybe he should show how many attacks Flying blades would take.

Or maybe he should dodge roll the first attack which offbalances the sorc and gives him 10% bonus damage, then let the sorc bolt escape near him to give him the ability to break free and reduce the cost of all of his abilities by 80% for the next 8 seconds until the sorc guaranteed stuns him again to repeat the process. The Champion point bonuses towards a stamina build are so absurdly overpowered right now it really gives a caster nothing to look forward too after about 600 champion points are spent.

AriBoh

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Or maybe he should dodge roll the first attack which offbalances the sorc and gives him 10% bonus damage, then let the sorc bolt escape near him to give him the ability to break free and reduce the cost of all of his abilities by 80% for the next 8 seconds until the sorc guaranteed stuns him again to repeat the process. The Champion point bonuses towards a stamina build are so absurdly overpowered right now it really gives a caster nothing to look forward too after about 600 champion points are spent.

Pointing out one broken system doesn't fix the other.

Lionxoft

Just have hardened ward scale off of health similar to igneous. No reason to have an offensive stat determine the strength of defensive abilities.

DDuke

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Maybe you should also point out that you put three legendary magicka cost reduction enchants on your sorc but didn't use the corresponding enchants on your NB.

Hahahahaha.

You made my day. Lovely.

Also he fails to mention that there is a way to scale dmg apart from max stat but for shields there is not.

I actually made a mistake, he is using the full Light armor passive bonus, sorc passives, breton passive and -15.8% reduction max champion bonus.

There *is* a champion point allocation that increases shield strength but that is besides the point.

I know next to nothing about NB abilities but I'm guessing that Surprise attack is not a staple attack that people are using as their primary damage ability and is more of a utility ability.

Wrong, it is now the best ability for NB stamina DPS (outside 2H), around 10% stronger than Flying Blade (current go to skill for DW players in PvP).

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Soul Harvest is magic damage and not physical and thus doesn't receive nearly as many bonuses as a physical attack would.

Soul Harvest scales with stamina / weapon dmg, as those are the template's higher stats.
Also, there's a passive for +magic damage in Champion system, which I of course filled as well.
Damage remains at 9k.

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Maybe you should also point out that you put three legendary magicka cost reduction enchants on your sorc but didn't use the corresponding enchants on your NB.

Reducing the cost wont make them do anymore damage, so the ultimate results on time taken don't change.

Magicka damage ultimate on a Stamina NB isn't going to be as effective.

First of all, both templates were using the same enchants, +health regen (an oversight of mine).
Neither had cost reduction or spell damage/weapon damage, and if I were to add cost reduction, both Surprise Attack & Hardened Ward would cost 600 less, so we'd be back in square one.

Second, point me out to a physical damage ultimate then please. They all happen to be magic damage.

The thing is, they scale according to your highest stats (whether magicka/spell dmg or stamina/weapon dmg). That's how it currently works on live as well.

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Maybe he should show how many attacks Flying blades would take.

4 Flying Blades, 5056 Stamina, 5,2 seconds. Much worse.

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Or maybe he should dodge roll the first attack which offbalances the sorc and gives him 10% bonus damage, then let the sorc bolt escape near him to give him the ability to break free and reduce the cost of all of his abilities by 80% for the next 8 seconds until the sorc guaranteed stuns him again to repeat the process. The Champion point bonuses towards a stamina build are so absurdly overpowered right now it really gives a caster nothing to look forward too after about 600 champion points are spent.

Please don't tell me you're serious.


To add to my findings, I managed to reach 1338 magicka regen with my template character wearing 7/7 Aether etc.
Hardened Ward costs 1953 magicka and takes minimum 3.9 seconds to break for a stamina NB.

Yeah, nothing wrong at all... I can just imagine how this'd be with better gear.

Sharee

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Magicka damage ultimate on a Stamina NB isn't going to be as effective.

Ultimates scale with the stronger of the two stats.

Sharee

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

I know next to nothing about NB abilities but I'm guessing that Surprise attack is not a staple attack that people are using as their primary damage ability and is more of a utility ability.

Surprise attack is to a melee NB what flame whip is to a DK.

DDuke

Sharee wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

I know next to nothing about NB abilities but I'm guessing that Surprise attack is not a staple attack that people are using as their primary damage ability and is more of a utility ability.

Surprise attack is to a melee NB what flame whip is to a DK.

In fact, here is Flame Lash (Dunmer Magicka DK with same magicka gear as Sorc, 3600 CP, all points in magicka). For comparison sake, I didn't re-enchant the jewelry either (same as NB & Sorc).



4 Flame Lashes to break Hardened Ward: 5,2 seconds, 6574 magicka.

As you can see, it is actually worse than Surprise Attack or Flying Blade (though the potential healing from it will help).

RoyJade

But if you perma-CC the sorc (it's very easy, because a magicka sorcerer haven't any stamina), you can control and kill the sorcerer very easily. And don't say bolt escape, NB have a stamina or magicka gap-closer. And it's stun.

Yes, hardened ward is very powerful. But it's the ONLY things sorc have now in pve. They can't tank, they can't heal, they can't dps, they only can survive and let their pets do the work. If you remove hardened ward, sorc will not be able to do even the levelling phase alone…

Yes, magic shields need a nerf, but the good nerf (in my opinion) would be a vulnerability on all proc but dot. If you can crit on a shield, take back your resources (siphoning strike, heavy attach…) or generate ultimate, shield will be more balanced without nerfing again sorc in pve.

AriBoh

RoyJade wrote: »

But if you perma-CC the sorc (it's very easy, because a magicka sorcerer haven't any stamina), you can control and kill the sorcerer very easily. And don't say bolt escape, NB have a stamina or magicka gap-closer. And it's stun.

Nope if you use teleport strike on a player its a 1 second root, only stuns npcs. Been like that a while. So NB are left with fear or that Agony crap that's more than likely to get you killed.

RoyJade wrote: »

Yes, hardened ward is very powerful. But it's the ONLY things sorc have now in pve. They can't tank, they can't heal, they can't dps, they only can survive and let their pets do the work. If you remove hardened ward, sorc will not be able to do even the levelling phase alone…

Idk how many people how many times are going to have to say this NOBODY IS SAYING TO REMOVE HARDEND WARD

RoyJade wrote: »

Yes, magic shields need a nerf, but the good nerf (in my opinion) would be a vulnerability on all proc but dot. If you can crit on a shield, take back your resources (siphoning strike, heavy attach…) or generate ultimate, shield will be more balanced without nerfing again sorc in pve.

1.6.2 added ult gen from shields but none of the other things, since I'm EU I haven't tested the change cause screw templates. Maybe someone could chime in and tell us how its working?

RoyJade

Attack against magic shield don't proc ultimate in 1.6.2, if I remember. But you get the ultimate generation buff if you shield an attack (with a physical shield or weapon).

And I see a lot of people who want to nerf hardened ward to death. Even with a life scaling, it will be enough to totally destroy this capacity, like negate and surge before.

Teleport strike still can be used to stop a bolt escaper sorc. I was killed by that a large amount of time, and I used that to kill a lot of sorcerer myself (I play both with a sorc and a NB). A good player can deal with bolt escape easily.
Moreover, a perma-stacking shield and tp sorc don't do a lot of damage, because it spend all his time for survival.

AriBoh

RoyJade wrote: »

Moreover, a perma-stacking shield and tp sorc don't do a lot of damage, because it spend all his time for survival.

I disagree. But even if this were the case, someone who is near invincible has all the time in the world to wear his opponent down.

DDuke

RoyJade wrote: »

Teleport strike still can be used to stop a bolt escaper sorc. I was killed by that a large amount of time, and I used that to kill a lot of sorcerer myself (I play both with a sorc and a NB). A good player can deal with bolt escape easily.
Moreover, a perma-stacking shield and tp sorc don't do a lot of damage, because it spend all his time for survival.

The sorc pets alone will kill the other player in time, and you most likely cant even kill the pets, since they get a 13378 dmg shield (more than a freaking ultimate deals damage).

Dracane

His theory is cute, but unrealistic. (Sorry, I am so tired of DDuke's pointless comments and his hating against Sorcerers)

In reality, this is totally different. A mage can break like 2-3 CCs, depending on how you time the 5 seconds immunity. After that, he is perma stunned and as soon as the shield is down, he is 1 or 2 shot.

You should do less testing on the paper, but should go out there and see, how it works in reality.

AriBoh

And if the sorc times his shield stack right they can have 30k that someone has to break through to even get to HP, survive and then just put those shields right back up.
We can all put our own BS spin on things doesn't mean shields aren't OP.

RoyJade

But a lot of sorcerers don't like to play with three toogle abilities. It's not fun for most of us.

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

RoyJade wrote: »

Moreover, a perma-stacking shield and tp sorc don't do a lot of damage, because it spend all his time for survival.

I disagree. But even if this were the case, someone who is near invincible has all the time in the world to wear his opponent down.

If you leave him alone, he will do great damage. But if you focusing your attack against him, he can only refresh his shield. And if you control him, you can destruct his shield so easily. Actually, I've killed without any difficulties most of the spamming shield sorc I see, because no one can CC break more than three time.

I'm looking for an issue to this problem : sorc in pvp are good (and shield are a little too powerful because protect against everything but raw damage and controls), but they are far the worst class in pve : tanking, healing, dd or even buffer/debuffer, they are the wosrt class everywhere now. But I haven't found an answer.

Solanum

Stupid remarks:

"You can just kill us by CCing us."
Because you can't break free and bolt escape out of there?

"Teleport strike, charge abilities. QQ skilled players can catch up, I've been killed in the past"
This is why I frequently see sorcerers chased by groups of 7 people, utterly unable to catch up.
One CC, even the bolt escape itself can be used to briefly slow your opponents, and initiate a second bolt escape before they can catch up to the first one. Of course, with a moment of latency such effort isn't even needed on behalf of the sorcerer.

Make damage shields scale from health, I would be perfectly fine with a sorcerer having insane amounts of survivability trough mobility/shields. But having all of it in addition to the damage they put out, by just investing in a single stat remains silly.

DDuke

Dracane wrote: »

His theory is cute, but unrealistic. (Sorry, I am so tired of DDuke's pointless comments and his hating against Sorcerers)

In reality, this is totally different. A mage can break like 2-3 CCs, depending on how you time the 5 seconds immunity. After that, he is perma stunned and as soon as the shield is down, he is 1 or 2 shot.

You should do less testing on the paper, but should go out there and see, how it works in reality.

You know very well there are sets which reduce CC break costs to a minimum, and you can actually break CCs infinitely on Live if you are using potions, just go dueling if you want proof of that.

Also, if you paid attention you'd notice it actually takes multiple seconds to break that shield down, after which you'll have to deal additional 13-14k damage (if everything went into magicka), before target is out of it and spamming shields again.


That said, I'm not "hating against Sorcerers", this problem is universal to dmg shields.

Here, have something that is possibly even more broken:



On template gear with zero +health set bonuses, atleast (gets stronger the more enemies you have around) 13607 dmg shield that smacks you for 7211 dmg every time you break it.
And you can cast it every 2 seconds with that magicka regen (and it takes atleast 2,6 seconds to break it)

Oh, forgot to add: that is outside Cyrodiil. In Cyrodiil, you get even more health & even bigger Blazing Shield.

Vis

Some of you are not doing the other end of the equation:

First off, these skills are not and should NEVER be balanced around 1v1s. In any X v X situation, no one is going to consider a shield a nuisance.

Furthermore, a skill on shield is a skill not being used in dps/utility.

Also, at the cost of having no stamina and hp, all you have to do is cc him and then two shot him once he can't renew his shield. For a pure magicka sorc, that is 3 cc's btw. Are you telling me you are incapable for 3 cc's? Because a hundred different players are doing it every day on pts.

Lastly, that shield does not have the damage modifiers that dps skills have. The OP is being disingenuous when he shows tooltips, knowing that those damage tooltips will be 30-40% higher due to the buffs that will be in play during any combat situation.

Finally, my point?

Stop being a baby and crying nerf on every other person's class. People do not play this game so you can ez-mode two shot them and be your personal ego booster

Vis

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

And if the sorc times his shield stack right they can have 30k that someone has to break through to even get to HP, survive and then just put those shields right back up.
We can all put our own BS spin on things doesn't mean shields aren't OP.

Either you have not been on pts, or you need help with your rotation. Because players are killing sorcs no problems at the moment.

AriBoh

Vis wrote: »

Finally, my point?

Stop being a baby and crying nerf on every other person's class. People do not play this game so you can ez-mode two shot them and be your personal ego booster

How about a game where we can actually kill someone at all cause they don't have a new 12-18k shield every 2 seconds? Be they Sorc, DK or Templar? (Poor NBs)

Dracane

DDuke wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

His theory is cute, but unrealistic. (Sorry, I am so tired of DDuke's pointless comments and his hating against Sorcerers)

In reality, this is totally different. A mage can break like 2-3 CCs, depending on how you time the 5 seconds immunity. After that, he is perma stunned and as soon as the shield is down, he is 1 or 2 shot.

You should do less testing on the paper, but should go out there and see, how it works in reality.

You know very well there are sets which reduce CC break costs to a minimum, and you can actually break CCs infinitely on Live if you are using potions, just go dueling if you want proof of that.

Also, if you paid attention you'd notice it actually takes multiple seconds to break that shield down, after which you'll have to deal additional 13-14k damage (if everything went into magicka), before target is out of it and spamming shields again.


That said, I'm not "hating against Sorcerers", this problem is universal to dmg shields.

Here, have something that is possibly even more broken:



On template gear with zero +health set bonuses, atleast (gets stronger the more enemies you have around) 13607 dmg shield that smacks you for 7211 dmg every time you break it.
And you can cast it every 2 seconds with that magicka regen (and it takes atleast 2,6 seconds to break it)

Thank you, I'm duelling every day on the PTS. Don't try to insult my experience.

You can't CC break forever as a mage. 3 times maybe and it's over. Just refresh your CC every 5 seconds and the mage will be gone. COME ONE BOY, they are soo easy to destroy if you're just using your abilities and time it right. I know you can do it honey. When it comes to full health Templars, I might agree.

They have a 13 k (or even more) damage shield and you also have to destroy 40k health and he is most likely wearing heavy armor. This might be hard to destroy. But even then, he will be out of magicka very soon and out of stamina and is not going to deal that much damage.

Everything has a balance. Unlike stamina NBs.... who block forever, dodge roll forever, CC break forever and strike like an angry god. (This is the future with enough CPs)

Vis

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

Finally, my point?

Stop being a baby and crying nerf on every other person's class. People do not play this game so you can ez-mode two shot them and be your personal ego booster

How about a game where we can actually kill someone at all cause they don't have a new 12-18k shield every 2 seconds? Be they Sorc, DK or Templar? (Poor NBs)

Wow, you answered my question about whether or not you are on pts. Yeah, it's not like that at all ... sadly.

DDuke

Vis wrote: »

Some of you are not doing the other end of the equation:

First off, these skills are not and should NEVER be balanced around 1v1s. In any X v X situation, no one is going to consider a shield a nuisance.

I disagree. Everything should be balanced around 1v1 first, and then see how it works in X v X.

That said, how are shields balanced even in X v X?
How I see it:
shield stacker - survives
normal player - dies

Vis wrote: »

Furthermore, a skill on shield is a skill not being used in dps/utility.

And there are 5 skill slots, shield takes one. What is your point?

Vis wrote: »

Also, at the cost of having no stamina and hp, all you have to do is cc him and then two shot him once he can't renew his shield. For a pure magicka sorc, that is 3 cc's btw. Are you telling me you are incapable for 3 cc's? Because a hundred different players are doing it every day on pts.

You must not duel much. On live, good players are able to break CC non-stop. All you have to do is look at dueling videos. There's a reason why duels go for 30 mins ++ even on Live. This is only 10x worse on PTS, which I will prove with videos (and it's going to be a noob perspective, since I never use dmg shields on Live) once they fix the 2H dmg bug.

Vis wrote: »

Lastly, that shield does not have the damage modifiers that dps skills have. The OP is being disingenuous when he shows tooltips, knowing that those damage tooltips will be 30-40% higher due to the buffs that will be in play during any combat situation.

8%, if you're a Dual Wield/Dual Wield NB, 28% if you have a 2H equipped. For Magicka builds, 28% is the maximum (afaik) as well.

Still doesn't fix it, when dmg shields are over 100% more cost effective.

Vis wrote: »

Finally, my point?

Stop being a baby and crying nerf on every other person's class. People do not play this game so you can ez-mode two shot them and be your personal ego booster

Here's my point: stop defending broken game mechanics that are only going to destroy build diversity & fun for many people in Cyrodiil.

Or do you want to stack shields alone in Cyrodiil with your 5 shield stacker buddies?

Vis

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

Finally, my point?

Stop being a baby and crying nerf on every other person's class. People do not play this game so you can ez-mode two shot them and be your personal ego booster

(Poor NBs)

Also, NBs might be a lot of things ... but they are not poor. You need to get out and try it for yourself. I don't even play an NB on live and was winning duels against players my sorc could barely face.

Dracane

Vis wrote: »

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

Finally, my point?

Stop being a baby and crying nerf on every other person's class. People do not play this game so you can ez-mode two shot them and be your personal ego booster

(Poor NBs)

Also, NBs might be a lot of things ... but they are not poor. You need to get out and try it for yourself. I don't even play an NB on live and was winning duels against players my sorc could barely face.

Nightblades can be the most OP class if played right. There are ridiculously strong build with cloak and such things. Nightblade is definately not poor. They are the most dangerous class of all. Of course being dangerous is not all, but it's a big factor.

DDuke

Dracane wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

Finally, my point?

Stop being a baby and crying nerf on every other person's class. People do not play this game so you can ez-mode two shot them and be your personal ego booster

(Poor NBs)

Also, NBs might be a lot of things ... but they are not poor. You need to get out and try it for yourself. I don't even play an NB on live and was winning duels against players my sorc could barely face.

Nightblades can be the most OP class if played right. There are ridiculously strong build with cloak and such things.

I died.

Sorry, your posts are just far too hilarious