So I did a quick comparison...

DDuke

Digiman wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

PTS Templates, one is a Breton Sorc with all points in magicka, another an Imperial NB with all points in stamina. Both have 3600 CPs allocated.

Sorc is wearing light armour template gear, while NB is wearing the medium one.





Harnened Ward=1953 magicka, 17792 dmg shield
Surprise Attack=1502 stamina, 6020 dmg
Soul Harvest=Ultimate, 9929 dmg

Amount of resources it takes to break a shield: 3 Surprise Attacks (4506 stamina) or Soul Harvest (ulti)+2 Surprise Attacks (3004 stamina)

Amount of time it takes to break a shield: 3 Surprise Attacks = 3,9 seconds minimum, Soul Harvest+2 Surprise Attacks=3,9 seconds minimum

If you don't happen to be NB, but are using DW: 4 Flying Blades, 5056 Stamina, 5,2 seconds.

To add to my findings, I managed to reach 1338 magicka regen with my template character wearing 7/7 Aether etc, which means I could refresh the shield every 2,6 seconds without ever going below 100% magicka .


Can anyone else see the problem?


Here's how balanced PvP currently is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GAfb5V5zjo

Note how I'm using a template character, no potions & I stay at 100% magicka.

I kill my opponent by heavy attacking alone, and this is the second time I play with a dmg shield (complete shield noob here).

This has been the case in pretty much every fight in PTS, where I don't get one shot by 132k Silver Bolts or 88k Razor Caltrops.

All I saw was a 4 min video of you failing to kill a templer even with pets with full health except for 1:23 where your shield failed and in 1 hit got taken down to near death before you broke out of CC and replied ward.

Good, that's what I wanted you to see. I played like a complete noob, spamming light/heavy attacks & shield button. I even hit Windows key for accident & went into desktop for a moment (which is the moment I almost died).
Note: this was not intended, it was me binding "Command Pet" key too close to Windows.

Just goes to demonstrate how you can win with zero skill, just by slotting ability X while your opponent does everything in his power to take you down.

Ace_SiN wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

All I saw was a 4 min video of you failing to kill a templer even with pets with full health except for 1:23 where your shield failed and in 1 hit got taken down to near death before you broke out of CC and replied ward.

Another good point.. Do you guys see how low the TTK is? Nerfing shields is NOT an easy no brainer solution. The TTK is completely out of wack atm. 1v1 fights can last for 5+ mins or it can be over in a few seconds.. The moment your shield goes down you are practically naked and the chances of you dying are pretty high.

I agree, low TTK is another problem.

I'd be fine if they dramatically increased player health in Cyrodiil (obviously, changing how GDB & Blazing Shield etc work first though).

Ace_SiN

DDuke wrote: »

And would you consider WoW a "high skill ceiling" game?

I didn't play back in vanilla, but I did decided to play it again recently(WOD). 1v1 is not always decided by skill. Some classes simply outshine others do to having more useful tools for a 1v1. A Blood DK, for example, will roflstomp most classes in a 1v1 or 2v2 scenario(same as a Feral Druid). They are not as dominant(or OP) in 3v3 though. While others like ele shaman are very weak for 1v1, but shine where it matters(Arena 3v3). I'm glad you brought up WOW though.. The game is NOT balanced around 1v1. 3v3 is where blizz achieves balance, because a player's skill can not always dictate wins in 1v1(again, you can't manually dodge skills, some classes have better tools for 1v1, etc). However, a group's skill can even overcome a counter setup if played correctly(as seen at the last Blizzcon tournament).

The individual skill ceiling is low in WoW(like most tab target mmos), but the group skill ceiling is higher than most(even ESO).

DDuke wrote: »

Question for everyone defending these broken game mechanics: do you want what is best for the game, or do you simply want your own specific playstyle to be dominant, so you can kill "noobs" who don't want to participate in it?

What's best for this game, imo, is for a great player to have the tools to differentiate himself from a good player. ZOS can start by removing tab target and decrease the size of the hit boxes, so aiming is actually a thing. It doesn't need to be FPS aiming, but being able to target someone while the crosshair is not even near them is silly(and clunky at best, which makes pressing tab a requirement in most situations).. Then they should add in a keybind skill that allows you to disable your opponent's block(with an internal cd of course). This would mean more skillful "juke" blocking(similar to WoW's juke casting). Then 1v1 will have a chance at being balanced.

Also, being able to "do whatever you want" is a foolish PvE dream. That will never be the case for PvP if you wish to be competitive. The meta dictates all. If it's not shields, then it's going to be something else.

DDuke wrote: »

And no one is saying shields should become "useless".
I'd be fine with them even being as strong as currently, but they'd have to be more like "emergency buttons" that cost a lot of magicka (atleast 7-8k), which would allow you to stay alive.

Ok, I get where you're coming from, but if that was the case they may have to be stronger than they are currently. Most shields are only strong if they are being spam stacked. Though if the cost is finely tuned it could still work.

Overall though, I think the TTK is just way too low to just nerf shields atm(without adjusting everything else). Without a shield, you're dead in seconds.

DDuke wrote: »

Also, what makes you think people would go resto staff? 2H is very viable as well, and Dual Wield might also be, if they give it a buff like Momentum for 20% dmg.

With the current TTK, 2H is only viable when you can create breathing room with shields. You have to at least survive long enough to make your 2H heal worthwhile. Currently you can be dropped in a few key strokes. Consistent burst healing would have to make up for the lack of defensive options, but even then that would just be a dice roll against certain burst builds.

At best the game would turn into "who can burst who first", which would be even worst.

DDuke wrote: »

It is not like other playstyles don't work. They do.
The only thing holding them back are dmg shields & how strong they are.

This is where we see things differently. I don't consider using shields a "playstyle". They are just tools. A playstyle to me is an archer, melee, mage, healer, or tank. What tools those setups have doesn't change the playstyle.

Ezareth

DDuke wrote: »

Ace_SiN wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Oh, so I'm not allowed to beat a shield spammer in 1v1, while in 1vX I'm required to use one to survive?


That sounds very balanced indeed...

How about just admitting there's a problem, when 75% of people use dmg shield abilities (even on Live), and when it's even worse on PTS?

1v1 in any low skill ceiling game is all about "picking your poison". If it's not shields, it's going to be something else that completely dominates 1v1. Why? A player's individual skill doesn't dictate much and what's strong in a 1v1 is usually not always the case for a group fight. A player's skill is the ONLY effective self balancing tool for 1v1 fights. Darkfall Online is still one of the very few MMORPGs that had balanced 1v1s, because the skill ceiling was high. There was a huge difference between a good player and a great player. Builds didn't dictate loses because everyone had access to all the skills, at any time, and you could manually dodge attacks with wsad movement.

This is why certain builds are never taken seriously in a 1v1 for a game like this. It's just way too easy to build some dominate 1v1 build when a player's skill is hindered and essentially capped(meaning there's not much of a difference between a good and a great player).

Shields have always been taken, because they are effective defensive options. PvP is all about being as versatile as the game allows. If you nerf shields too hard for the rare 1v1 scenario, then you'll just force everyone to roll with Resto staves again(which was the case before more people learned about shield stacking).

And would you consider WoW a "high skill ceiling" game?

During the vanilla days, I was able to beat any other class with my rogue, and there were good players from other classes that beat me as well.
Never did I feel though that someone was "impossible" to beat, unless he was much, much more skilled than me & wearing Tier 2 gear or something (speaking of vanilla WoW here).

Which was much of the reason behind the game's success I believe, the ability to play the type of character you wanted to play, instead of being pigeonholed into a heal/dmg shield spam type of play (e.g. Holy Priest or Paladin in WoW).

Question for everyone defending these broken game mechanics: do you want what is best for the game, or do you simply want your own specific playstyle to be dominant, so you can kill "noobs" who don't want to participate in it?

Those "noobs" will eventually have had enough, and will quit the game.

That might lead into loss of subscription revenue & things like F2P/B2P- wait, what's that? It's already going B2P?
Ok. Next, that might lead into many console players quitting rapidly after console launch & game shutting down/content release rate slowing down.


And no one is saying shields should become "useless".
I'd be fine with them even being as strong as currently, but they'd have to be more like "emergency buttons" that cost a lot of magicka (atleast 7-8k), which would allow you to stay alive.

Also, what makes you think people would go resto staff? 2H is very viable as well, and Dual Wield might also be, if they give it a buff like Momentum for 20% dmg.


Before shield stacking became a thing (and when cloak worked), I frequently beat skilled people simply using Dual Wield/Bow, even when starting out of stealth.

It is not like other playstyles don't work. They do.
The only thing holding them back are dmg shields & how strong they are.

Nightblades were retardedly OP in Vanilla WoW. They could stunlock kill the majority of players in the game even in the best from their opener. Even so the skill level in 1 v 1 play of WoW was nothing nearly as complex as ESO. It turned into a game of timing ability cooldowns and having the best mods and macros at hand.

In the rest of your post it appears you're trying to make the playstyle *you* want to play effective again by nerfing the abilities of other classes. Instead you should attempt to modify your playstyle or find one that is more successful at fighting the people who are using the currently popular PvP meta.

DDuke

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ace_SiN wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Oh, so I'm not allowed to beat a shield spammer in 1v1, while in 1vX I'm required to use one to survive?


That sounds very balanced indeed...

How about just admitting there's a problem, when 75% of people use dmg shield abilities (even on Live), and when it's even worse on PTS?

1v1 in any low skill ceiling game is all about "picking your poison". If it's not shields, it's going to be something else that completely dominates 1v1. Why? A player's individual skill doesn't dictate much and what's strong in a 1v1 is usually not always the case for a group fight. A player's skill is the ONLY effective self balancing tool for 1v1 fights. Darkfall Online is still one of the very few MMORPGs that had balanced 1v1s, because the skill ceiling was high. There was a huge difference between a good player and a great player. Builds didn't dictate loses because everyone had access to all the skills, at any time, and you could manually dodge attacks with wsad movement.

This is why certain builds are never taken seriously in a 1v1 for a game like this. It's just way too easy to build some dominate 1v1 build when a player's skill is hindered and essentially capped(meaning there's not much of a difference between a good and a great player).

Shields have always been taken, because they are effective defensive options. PvP is all about being as versatile as the game allows. If you nerf shields too hard for the rare 1v1 scenario, then you'll just force everyone to roll with Resto staves again(which was the case before more people learned about shield stacking).

And would you consider WoW a "high skill ceiling" game?

During the vanilla days, I was able to beat any other class with my rogue, and there were good players from other classes that beat me as well.
Never did I feel though that someone was "impossible" to beat, unless he was much, much more skilled than me & wearing Tier 2 gear or something (speaking of vanilla WoW here).

Which was much of the reason behind the game's success I believe, the ability to play the type of character you wanted to play, instead of being pigeonholed into a heal/dmg shield spam type of play (e.g. Holy Priest or Paladin in WoW).

Question for everyone defending these broken game mechanics: do you want what is best for the game, or do you simply want your own specific playstyle to be dominant, so you can kill "noobs" who don't want to participate in it?

Those "noobs" will eventually have had enough, and will quit the game.

That might lead into loss of subscription revenue & things like F2P/B2P- wait, what's that? It's already going B2P?
Ok. Next, that might lead into many console players quitting rapidly after console launch & game shutting down/content release rate slowing down.


And no one is saying shields should become "useless".
I'd be fine with them even being as strong as currently, but they'd have to be more like "emergency buttons" that cost a lot of magicka (atleast 7-8k), which would allow you to stay alive.

Also, what makes you think people would go resto staff? 2H is very viable as well, and Dual Wield might also be, if they give it a buff like Momentum for 20% dmg.


Before shield stacking became a thing (and when cloak worked), I frequently beat skilled people simply using Dual Wield/Bow, even when starting out of stealth.

It is not like other playstyles don't work. They do.
The only thing holding them back are dmg shields & how strong they are.

Nightblades were retardedly OP in Vanilla WoW. They could stunlock kill the majority of players in the game even in the best from their opener. Even so the skill level in 1 v 1 play of WoW was nothing nearly as complex as ESO. It turned into a game of timing ability cooldowns and having the best mods and macros at hand.

In the rest of your post it appears you're trying to make the playstyle *you* want to play effective again by nerfing the abilities of other classes. Instead you should attempt to modify your playstyle or find one that is more successful at fighting the people who are using the currently popular PvP meta.

Something tells me you didn't play WoW (vanilla or not).

Regardless, having only one viable playstyle (spam dmg shields) isn't very appealing to many players (is this really surprising?)

Ways to make it viable without nerfing anything

• Make DPS skills deal as much dmg as dmg shields protect from.
• Introduce skills that dispel dmg shields & prevent them from being cast for X seconds.

Solanum

I love how people are shown a movie, demonstrating a 3 versus 1 fight, where the guy pushes one button to become near immortal, and then still dare to claim it's balanced.

Show us how balanced it is, pull this off with a stamina build. I don't care if you use plate or leather, but show me something equally powerful.

Or just admit, that maybe, just maybe, light armor with shield stacking does in fact have both insane survivability and proper damage.

DDuke

Ace_SiN wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

And would you consider WoW a "high skill ceiling" game?

I didn't play back in vanilla, but I did decided to play it again recently(WOD). 1v1 is not always decided by skill. Some classes simply outshine others do to having more useful tools for a 1v1. A Blood DK, for example, will roflstomp most classes in a 1v1 or 2v2 scenario(same as a Feral Druid). They are not as dominant(or OP) in 3v3 though. While others like ele shaman are very weak for 1v1, but shine where it matters(Arena 3v3). I'm glad you brought up WOW though.. The game is NOT balanced around 1v1. 3v3 is where blizz achieves balance, because a player's skill can not always dictate wins in 1v1(again, you can't manually dodge skills, some classes have better tools for 1v1, etc). However, a group's skill can even overcome a counter setup if played correctly(as seen at the last Blizzcon tournament).

The individual skill ceiling is low in WoW(like most tab target mmos), but the group skill ceiling is higher than most(even ESO).

DDuke wrote: »

Question for everyone defending these broken game mechanics: do you want what is best for the game, or do you simply want your own specific playstyle to be dominant, so you can kill "noobs" who don't want to participate in it?

What's best for this game, imo, is for a great player to have the tools to differentiate himself from a good player. ZOS can start by removing tab target and decrease the size of the hit boxes, so aiming is actually a thing. It doesn't need to be FPS aiming, but being able to target someone while the crosshair is not even near them is silly(and clunky at best, which makes pressing tab a requirement in most situations).. Then they should add in a keybind skill that allows you to disable your opponent's block(with an internal cd of course). This would mean more skillful "juke" blocking(similar to WoW's juke casting). Then 1v1 will have a chance at being balanced.

Also, being able to "do whatever you want" is a foolish PvE dream. That will never be the case for PvP if you wish to be competitive. The meta dictates all. If it's not shields, then it's going to be something else.

DDuke wrote: »

And no one is saying shields should become "useless".
I'd be fine with them even being as strong as currently, but they'd have to be more like "emergency buttons" that cost a lot of magicka (atleast 7-8k), which would allow you to stay alive.

Ok, I get where you're coming from, but if that was the case they may have to be stronger than they are currently. Most shields are only strong if they are being spam stacked. Though if the cost is finely tuned it could still work.

Overall though, I think the TTK is just way too low to just nerf shields atm(without adjusting everything else). Without a shield, you're dead in seconds.

DDuke wrote: »

Also, what makes you think people would go resto staff? 2H is very viable as well, and Dual Wield might also be, if they give it a buff like Momentum for 20% dmg.

With the current TTK, 2H is only viable when you can create breathing room with shields. You have to at least survive long enough to make your 2H heal worthwhile. Currently you can be dropped in a few key strokes. Consistent burst healing would have to make up for the lack of defensive options, but even then that would just be a dice roll against certain burst builds.

At best the game would turn into "who can burst who first", which would be even worst.

DDuke wrote: »

It is not like other playstyles don't work. They do.
The only thing holding them back are dmg shields & how strong they are.

This is where we see things differently. I don't consider using shields a "playstyle". They are just tools. A playstyle to me is an archer, melee, mage, healer, or tank. What tools those setups have doesn't change the playstyle.

First reasonable post so far, I like it.


I agree that the burst time in this game is ridiculous, even though it is my own "playstyle" currently, I would like it to change.
Being able to burst someone down in less than a second has nothing to do with skill (especially when there is not even aiming involved).

A simple solution for this would be to give everyone significantly more health in Cyrodiil.

As for your other points, I can't speak for current WoW, but vanilla used to be very balanced in 1v1, with every class being viable at that. Your example, elemental shaman, was extremely strong for instance (same as every other class in good hands).

The way I see being forced to spam heals; it's like being forced to play a different archetype entirely.
It's as if you gave every class in WoW Power Word: Shield that had no cooldown, and expected them to spam it ad inifinitum, instead of relying on things like stealth, dmg mitigation, CC etc.

To me, it's an entirely different playstyle to the "stealth, CC, burst, restealth, avoid AoE, CC" etc that I'm used to, being a long term stealth class player from other MMOs.

What if I told you that every class had to use an invisibility spell to survive in PvP?
I could argue it's just a tool like dmg shields, but in fact it becomes a playstyle.

Ezareth

DDuke wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ace_SiN wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Oh, so I'm not allowed to beat a shield spammer in 1v1, while in 1vX I'm required to use one to survive?


That sounds very balanced indeed...

How about just admitting there's a problem, when 75% of people use dmg shield abilities (even on Live), and when it's even worse on PTS?

1v1 in any low skill ceiling game is all about "picking your poison". If it's not shields, it's going to be something else that completely dominates 1v1. Why? A player's individual skill doesn't dictate much and what's strong in a 1v1 is usually not always the case for a group fight. A player's skill is the ONLY effective self balancing tool for 1v1 fights. Darkfall Online is still one of the very few MMORPGs that had balanced 1v1s, because the skill ceiling was high. There was a huge difference between a good player and a great player. Builds didn't dictate loses because everyone had access to all the skills, at any time, and you could manually dodge attacks with wsad movement.

This is why certain builds are never taken seriously in a 1v1 for a game like this. It's just way too easy to build some dominate 1v1 build when a player's skill is hindered and essentially capped(meaning there's not much of a difference between a good and a great player).

Shields have always been taken, because they are effective defensive options. PvP is all about being as versatile as the game allows. If you nerf shields too hard for the rare 1v1 scenario, then you'll just force everyone to roll with Resto staves again(which was the case before more people learned about shield stacking).

And would you consider WoW a "high skill ceiling" game?

During the vanilla days, I was able to beat any other class with my rogue, and there were good players from other classes that beat me as well.
Never did I feel though that someone was "impossible" to beat, unless he was much, much more skilled than me & wearing Tier 2 gear or something (speaking of vanilla WoW here).

Which was much of the reason behind the game's success I believe, the ability to play the type of character you wanted to play, instead of being pigeonholed into a heal/dmg shield spam type of play (e.g. Holy Priest or Paladin in WoW).

Question for everyone defending these broken game mechanics: do you want what is best for the game, or do you simply want your own specific playstyle to be dominant, so you can kill "noobs" who don't want to participate in it?

Those "noobs" will eventually have had enough, and will quit the game.

That might lead into loss of subscription revenue & things like F2P/B2P- wait, what's that? It's already going B2P?
Ok. Next, that might lead into many console players quitting rapidly after console launch & game shutting down/content release rate slowing down.


And no one is saying shields should become "useless".
I'd be fine with them even being as strong as currently, but they'd have to be more like "emergency buttons" that cost a lot of magicka (atleast 7-8k), which would allow you to stay alive.

Also, what makes you think people would go resto staff? 2H is very viable as well, and Dual Wield might also be, if they give it a buff like Momentum for 20% dmg.


Before shield stacking became a thing (and when cloak worked), I frequently beat skilled people simply using Dual Wield/Bow, even when starting out of stealth.

It is not like other playstyles don't work. They do.
The only thing holding them back are dmg shields & how strong they are.

Nightblades were retardedly OP in Vanilla WoW. They could stunlock kill the majority of players in the game even in the best from their opener. Even so the skill level in 1 v 1 play of WoW was nothing nearly as complex as ESO. It turned into a game of timing ability cooldowns and having the best mods and macros at hand.

In the rest of your post it appears you're trying to make the playstyle *you* want to play effective again by nerfing the abilities of other classes. Instead you should attempt to modify your playstyle or find one that is more successful at fighting the people who are using the currently popular PvP meta.

Something tells me you didn't play WoW (vanilla or not).

Regardless, having only one viable playstyle (spam dmg shields) isn't very appealing to many players (is this really surprising?)

Ways to make it viable without nerfing anything

• Make DPS skills deal as much dmg as dmg shields protect from.
• Introduce skills that dispel dmg shields & prevent them from being cast for X seconds.

Because a typo is indicative of anything.

I was one of the winners of the Beta leveling contest and played on Tichondrius which in vanilla was known as one of the best if not the best PvP server...all egos aside I was pretty well known in my time in Vanilla more than any time later.

Damage shields are a counter to many players with your playstyle...the surprise and gank playstyle. I have an easier time killing players of your class and playstyle than I do of any other combination. Is it the damage shields? Or the fact that you have a playstyle that is dependent on surprising and killing a player before they can react. There are plenty of "non-gank" NBs who I play who aren't easy to kill and none of them "spam shields".

DDuke

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ace_SiN wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Oh, so I'm not allowed to beat a shield spammer in 1v1, while in 1vX I'm required to use one to survive?


That sounds very balanced indeed...

How about just admitting there's a problem, when 75% of people use dmg shield abilities (even on Live), and when it's even worse on PTS?

1v1 in any low skill ceiling game is all about "picking your poison". If it's not shields, it's going to be something else that completely dominates 1v1. Why? A player's individual skill doesn't dictate much and what's strong in a 1v1 is usually not always the case for a group fight. A player's skill is the ONLY effective self balancing tool for 1v1 fights. Darkfall Online is still one of the very few MMORPGs that had balanced 1v1s, because the skill ceiling was high. There was a huge difference between a good player and a great player. Builds didn't dictate loses because everyone had access to all the skills, at any time, and you could manually dodge attacks with wsad movement.

This is why certain builds are never taken seriously in a 1v1 for a game like this. It's just way too easy to build some dominate 1v1 build when a player's skill is hindered and essentially capped(meaning there's not much of a difference between a good and a great player).

Shields have always been taken, because they are effective defensive options. PvP is all about being as versatile as the game allows. If you nerf shields too hard for the rare 1v1 scenario, then you'll just force everyone to roll with Resto staves again(which was the case before more people learned about shield stacking).

And would you consider WoW a "high skill ceiling" game?

During the vanilla days, I was able to beat any other class with my rogue, and there were good players from other classes that beat me as well.
Never did I feel though that someone was "impossible" to beat, unless he was much, much more skilled than me & wearing Tier 2 gear or something (speaking of vanilla WoW here).

Which was much of the reason behind the game's success I believe, the ability to play the type of character you wanted to play, instead of being pigeonholed into a heal/dmg shield spam type of play (e.g. Holy Priest or Paladin in WoW).

Question for everyone defending these broken game mechanics: do you want what is best for the game, or do you simply want your own specific playstyle to be dominant, so you can kill "noobs" who don't want to participate in it?

Those "noobs" will eventually have had enough, and will quit the game.

That might lead into loss of subscription revenue & things like F2P/B2P- wait, what's that? It's already going B2P?
Ok. Next, that might lead into many console players quitting rapidly after console launch & game shutting down/content release rate slowing down.


And no one is saying shields should become "useless".
I'd be fine with them even being as strong as currently, but they'd have to be more like "emergency buttons" that cost a lot of magicka (atleast 7-8k), which would allow you to stay alive.

Also, what makes you think people would go resto staff? 2H is very viable as well, and Dual Wield might also be, if they give it a buff like Momentum for 20% dmg.


Before shield stacking became a thing (and when cloak worked), I frequently beat skilled people simply using Dual Wield/Bow, even when starting out of stealth.

It is not like other playstyles don't work. They do.
The only thing holding them back are dmg shields & how strong they are.

Nightblades were retardedly OP in Vanilla WoW. They could stunlock kill the majority of players in the game even in the best from their opener. Even so the skill level in 1 v 1 play of WoW was nothing nearly as complex as ESO. It turned into a game of timing ability cooldowns and having the best mods and macros at hand.

In the rest of your post it appears you're trying to make the playstyle *you* want to play effective again by nerfing the abilities of other classes. Instead you should attempt to modify your playstyle or find one that is more successful at fighting the people who are using the currently popular PvP meta.

Something tells me you didn't play WoW (vanilla or not).

Regardless, having only one viable playstyle (spam dmg shields) isn't very appealing to many players (is this really surprising?)

Ways to make it viable without nerfing anything

• Make DPS skills deal as much dmg as dmg shields protect from.
• Introduce skills that dispel dmg shields & prevent them from being cast for X seconds.

Because a typo is indicative of anything.

I was one of the winners of the Beta leveling contest and played on Tichondrius which in vanilla was known as one of the best if not the best PvP server...all egos aside I was pretty well known in my time in Vanilla more than any time later.

Damage shields are a counter to many players with your playstyle...the surprise and gank playstyle. I have an easier time killing players of your class and playstyle than I do of any other combination. Is it the damage shields? Or the fact that you have a playstyle that is dependent on surprising and killing a player before they can react. There are plenty of "non-gank" NBs who I play who aren't easy to kill and none of them "spam shields".

Funny, if you played WoW, you'd know damage shields were a counter in WoW as well against burst damage. Difference is that they weren't overpowered.

I had very good chances to kill a Holy Priest in WoW, even a Paladin with bubbles ready (these were tough fights, but very doable).

There were no impossibilities.


And yes, rogue openers were strong, but you could turn it around very quick if you had good gear or certain skills off cooldown, and the rogue had to be very good to actually stunlock you effectively.

There were multiple different situations, which required different approaches. E.g. Rogue vs Mage played very differently than Rogue vs Warrior etc.

In ESO, it's just "one shot or run away" or "spam shields & destroy everyone".

That's the two playstyles in this game, where the competition of this MMO features dozens.

Ezareth

DDuke wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ace_SiN wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Oh, so I'm not allowed to beat a shield spammer in 1v1, while in 1vX I'm required to use one to survive?


That sounds very balanced indeed...

How about just admitting there's a problem, when 75% of people use dmg shield abilities (even on Live), and when it's even worse on PTS?

1v1 in any low skill ceiling game is all about "picking your poison". If it's not shields, it's going to be something else that completely dominates 1v1. Why? A player's individual skill doesn't dictate much and what's strong in a 1v1 is usually not always the case for a group fight. A player's skill is the ONLY effective self balancing tool for 1v1 fights. Darkfall Online is still one of the very few MMORPGs that had balanced 1v1s, because the skill ceiling was high. There was a huge difference between a good player and a great player. Builds didn't dictate loses because everyone had access to all the skills, at any time, and you could manually dodge attacks with wsad movement.

This is why certain builds are never taken seriously in a 1v1 for a game like this. It's just way too easy to build some dominate 1v1 build when a player's skill is hindered and essentially capped(meaning there's not much of a difference between a good and a great player).

Shields have always been taken, because they are effective defensive options. PvP is all about being as versatile as the game allows. If you nerf shields too hard for the rare 1v1 scenario, then you'll just force everyone to roll with Resto staves again(which was the case before more people learned about shield stacking).

And would you consider WoW a "high skill ceiling" game?

During the vanilla days, I was able to beat any other class with my rogue, and there were good players from other classes that beat me as well.
Never did I feel though that someone was "impossible" to beat, unless he was much, much more skilled than me & wearing Tier 2 gear or something (speaking of vanilla WoW here).

Which was much of the reason behind the game's success I believe, the ability to play the type of character you wanted to play, instead of being pigeonholed into a heal/dmg shield spam type of play (e.g. Holy Priest or Paladin in WoW).

Question for everyone defending these broken game mechanics: do you want what is best for the game, or do you simply want your own specific playstyle to be dominant, so you can kill "noobs" who don't want to participate in it?

Those "noobs" will eventually have had enough, and will quit the game.

That might lead into loss of subscription revenue & things like F2P/B2P- wait, what's that? It's already going B2P?
Ok. Next, that might lead into many console players quitting rapidly after console launch & game shutting down/content release rate slowing down.


And no one is saying shields should become "useless".
I'd be fine with them even being as strong as currently, but they'd have to be more like "emergency buttons" that cost a lot of magicka (atleast 7-8k), which would allow you to stay alive.

Also, what makes you think people would go resto staff? 2H is very viable as well, and Dual Wield might also be, if they give it a buff like Momentum for 20% dmg.


Before shield stacking became a thing (and when cloak worked), I frequently beat skilled people simply using Dual Wield/Bow, even when starting out of stealth.

It is not like other playstyles don't work. They do.
The only thing holding them back are dmg shields & how strong they are.

Nightblades were retardedly OP in Vanilla WoW. They could stunlock kill the majority of players in the game even in the best from their opener. Even so the skill level in 1 v 1 play of WoW was nothing nearly as complex as ESO. It turned into a game of timing ability cooldowns and having the best mods and macros at hand.

In the rest of your post it appears you're trying to make the playstyle *you* want to play effective again by nerfing the abilities of other classes. Instead you should attempt to modify your playstyle or find one that is more successful at fighting the people who are using the currently popular PvP meta.

Something tells me you didn't play WoW (vanilla or not).

Regardless, having only one viable playstyle (spam dmg shields) isn't very appealing to many players (is this really surprising?)

Ways to make it viable without nerfing anything

• Make DPS skills deal as much dmg as dmg shields protect from.
• Introduce skills that dispel dmg shields & prevent them from being cast for X seconds.

Because a typo is indicative of anything.

I was one of the winners of the Beta leveling contest and played on Tichondrius which in vanilla was known as one of the best if not the best PvP server...all egos aside I was pretty well known in my time in Vanilla more than any time later.

Damage shields are a counter to many players with your playstyle...the surprise and gank playstyle. I have an easier time killing players of your class and playstyle than I do of any other combination. Is it the damage shields? Or the fact that you have a playstyle that is dependent on surprising and killing a player before they can react. There are plenty of "non-gank" NBs who I play who aren't easy to kill and none of them "spam shields".

Funny, if you played WoW, you'd know damage shields were a counter in WoW as well against burst damage. Difference is that they weren't overpowered.

I had very good chances to kill a Holy Priest in WoW, even a Paladin with bubbles ready (these were tough fights, but very doable).

There were no impossibilities.


And yes, rogue openers were strong, but you could turn it around very quick if you had good gear or certain skills off cooldown, and the rogue had to be very good to actually stunlock you effectively.

There were multiple different situations, which required different approaches. E.g. Rogue vs Mage played very differently than Rogue vs Warrior etc.

In ESO, it's just "one shot or run away" or "spam shields & destroy everyone".

That's the two playstyles in this game, where the competition of this MMO features dozens.

I was an elemental Shaman in WoW, not a mage. I had a single NS>greater heal option...when I survived out of stun lock and this was with a shield and full tier 1 + 2.5 gear (which was the best combo at the time).

The rogue I recall in particular Nitrana(Notorious)rocking a death's sting and god knows what else in the event he didn't completely kill during the opener would pop evasion and just burn you down. I had no problem with holy Paladins, mages or other classes but a good rogue could destroy me without me really having a chance.

Anyways we digress and I forget far more about WoW than I remember about PVP other than it was a joke compared to ESO.

DDuke

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ace_SiN wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Oh, so I'm not allowed to beat a shield spammer in 1v1, while in 1vX I'm required to use one to survive?


That sounds very balanced indeed...

How about just admitting there's a problem, when 75% of people use dmg shield abilities (even on Live), and when it's even worse on PTS?

1v1 in any low skill ceiling game is all about "picking your poison". If it's not shields, it's going to be something else that completely dominates 1v1. Why? A player's individual skill doesn't dictate much and what's strong in a 1v1 is usually not always the case for a group fight. A player's skill is the ONLY effective self balancing tool for 1v1 fights. Darkfall Online is still one of the very few MMORPGs that had balanced 1v1s, because the skill ceiling was high. There was a huge difference between a good player and a great player. Builds didn't dictate loses because everyone had access to all the skills, at any time, and you could manually dodge attacks with wsad movement.

This is why certain builds are never taken seriously in a 1v1 for a game like this. It's just way too easy to build some dominate 1v1 build when a player's skill is hindered and essentially capped(meaning there's not much of a difference between a good and a great player).

Shields have always been taken, because they are effective defensive options. PvP is all about being as versatile as the game allows. If you nerf shields too hard for the rare 1v1 scenario, then you'll just force everyone to roll with Resto staves again(which was the case before more people learned about shield stacking).

And would you consider WoW a "high skill ceiling" game?

During the vanilla days, I was able to beat any other class with my rogue, and there were good players from other classes that beat me as well.
Never did I feel though that someone was "impossible" to beat, unless he was much, much more skilled than me & wearing Tier 2 gear or something (speaking of vanilla WoW here).

Which was much of the reason behind the game's success I believe, the ability to play the type of character you wanted to play, instead of being pigeonholed into a heal/dmg shield spam type of play (e.g. Holy Priest or Paladin in WoW).

Question for everyone defending these broken game mechanics: do you want what is best for the game, or do you simply want your own specific playstyle to be dominant, so you can kill "noobs" who don't want to participate in it?

Those "noobs" will eventually have had enough, and will quit the game.

That might lead into loss of subscription revenue & things like F2P/B2P- wait, what's that? It's already going B2P?
Ok. Next, that might lead into many console players quitting rapidly after console launch & game shutting down/content release rate slowing down.


And no one is saying shields should become "useless".
I'd be fine with them even being as strong as currently, but they'd have to be more like "emergency buttons" that cost a lot of magicka (atleast 7-8k), which would allow you to stay alive.

Also, what makes you think people would go resto staff? 2H is very viable as well, and Dual Wield might also be, if they give it a buff like Momentum for 20% dmg.


Before shield stacking became a thing (and when cloak worked), I frequently beat skilled people simply using Dual Wield/Bow, even when starting out of stealth.

It is not like other playstyles don't work. They do.
The only thing holding them back are dmg shields & how strong they are.

Nightblades were retardedly OP in Vanilla WoW. They could stunlock kill the majority of players in the game even in the best from their opener. Even so the skill level in 1 v 1 play of WoW was nothing nearly as complex as ESO. It turned into a game of timing ability cooldowns and having the best mods and macros at hand.

In the rest of your post it appears you're trying to make the playstyle *you* want to play effective again by nerfing the abilities of other classes. Instead you should attempt to modify your playstyle or find one that is more successful at fighting the people who are using the currently popular PvP meta.

Something tells me you didn't play WoW (vanilla or not).

Regardless, having only one viable playstyle (spam dmg shields) isn't very appealing to many players (is this really surprising?)

Ways to make it viable without nerfing anything

• Make DPS skills deal as much dmg as dmg shields protect from.
• Introduce skills that dispel dmg shields & prevent them from being cast for X seconds.

Because a typo is indicative of anything.

I was one of the winners of the Beta leveling contest and played on Tichondrius which in vanilla was known as one of the best if not the best PvP server...all egos aside I was pretty well known in my time in Vanilla more than any time later.

Damage shields are a counter to many players with your playstyle...the surprise and gank playstyle. I have an easier time killing players of your class and playstyle than I do of any other combination. Is it the damage shields? Or the fact that you have a playstyle that is dependent on surprising and killing a player before they can react. There are plenty of "non-gank" NBs who I play who aren't easy to kill and none of them "spam shields".

Funny, if you played WoW, you'd know damage shields were a counter in WoW as well against burst damage. Difference is that they weren't overpowered.

I had very good chances to kill a Holy Priest in WoW, even a Paladin with bubbles ready (these were tough fights, but very doable).

There were no impossibilities.


And yes, rogue openers were strong, but you could turn it around very quick if you had good gear or certain skills off cooldown, and the rogue had to be very good to actually stunlock you effectively.

There were multiple different situations, which required different approaches. E.g. Rogue vs Mage played very differently than Rogue vs Warrior etc.

In ESO, it's just "one shot or run away" or "spam shields & destroy everyone".

That's the two playstyles in this game, where the competition of this MMO features dozens.

I was an elemental Shaman in WoW, not a mage. I had a single NS>greater heal option...when I survived out of stun lock and this was with a shield and full tier 1 + 2.5 gear (which was the best combo at the time).

The rogue I recall in particular Nitrana(Notorious)rocking a death's sting and god knows what else in the event he didn't completely kill during the opener would pop evasion and just burn you down. I had no problem with holy Paladins, mages or other classes but a good rogue could destroy me without me really having a chance.

Anyways we digress and I forget far more about WoW than I remember about PVP other than it was a joke compared to ESO.

I got well over 60 days /played on my shaman alt in WoW. I just happened to play elemental as well (was even doing PvE sometimes as ele, taboo at the time)

Destroying rogues was really easy, all you had to do was get a flame shock on them to prevent stealth & kite them with totems.
You had your instant cast heal talent for emergencies, and could actually burst them down really quick with LB+Chain Lightning (in vanilla, shamans had unarguably the best burst dmg of all classes).

Best case scenario was of course to prevent them from getting stealth opener at all (nova totem worked well).

I like many elements of ESO's PvP, but I miss the diversity of other MMOs (not just WoW).

I want to fight fire/frost mages & warlocks, I want to see heavy armour warriors with a big 2H weapons, I want to fight dual wielding rogues, shapeshifting druids & hunters with pets.

Instead, everything in ESO is just another shield spamming hybrid healer/dps mage after another, or a one shotting sniper.


At the same time, I do prefer ESO's active combat elements to tab targeting, but that's about it.


Anyhow, enough off topic.

ZOS_TristanK

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Beleron

Yep. Bubbles need to just 100% scale off your hp. So the more tanky people that give up dps. Get stronger shields, but cant do as much damage AS, those whom focus more into getting more dps. But in restrospect that means
tanky people = stronger bubbles / weaker dps
dps people = weaker bubbles / stronger dps.

However having BOTH THE DAMAGE ABILITIES AND DPS ABILITIES scale off the same bloody thing, is just stupid. It means you can go full out dps, and get great survivability. Thats not balanced. Too many things either scale off lvl / rank or magica / stam, when they need to scale off things like, critical resistance, spell resistance, max hp, armor.

No duh your going to have a problem when both the tanky survivability skills and the high dps skills, scale off the same stat.
I don't know whom at zos thought this was a good idea (having tank and dps skill scale off the same stat) but well, it was NOT. Time for you mods to go give them a, I TOLD YOU SO......

Bouvin

RoyJade wrote: »

But if you perma-CC the sorc (it's very easy, because a magicka sorcerer haven't any stamina), you can control and kill the sorcerer very easily. And don't say bolt escape, NB have a stamina or magicka gap-closer. And it's stun.

It's an immobilize vs. players, not a stun.

Tankqull

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

You can. If you´re lucky to hit the 0.2 seconds between dodgerolls where he has a passive evasion buff up.

Actually, it is one second (I analyzed it frame by frame on my own PvP footage), and luck has nothing to do with it

It is literally impossible to be 1s time between two dodgerolls. I can perform 3 dodgerolls in 3 seconds while the animation takes about 0.8 seconds (and i am able to do so a 100 times in a row if my stamina would last for that many dodgerolls).
With your timing either a dodgroll would animate in 0.2 (edit: with your timing the dodgeroll would have no animation at all - whoops) seconds or it would take me 4.4 seconds to perform three dodgerolls.

Maybe your frametimes are off.

I can log into the game and perform dodgerolls back to back and i am able do a dodgeroll every second. I don´t know why your char is not able to do so. Its either a user error, game error, hardware error on your side or you´re doing it on purpose.

the problem is the window is determined by your ping - hence why its completly impossible to escape from a zerg as the netcode cant handle the server client communication while you have nearly no time inbetween in a deserted area [gues why he chose craglorn evil to him who evil thinks...] thats why some player can be hit while others cant. its the same issue you can envision with BE some players have nearly no latency inbetween two casts while other literaly have to wait for a second and more. the mechanic is the same for both players but the execution thx to the horrible net code is the crux.

DDuke

Tankqull wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

You can. If you´re lucky to hit the 0.2 seconds between dodgerolls where he has a passive evasion buff up.

Actually, it is one second (I analyzed it frame by frame on my own PvP footage), and luck has nothing to do with it

It is literally impossible to be 1s time between two dodgerolls. I can perform 3 dodgerolls in 3 seconds while the animation takes about 0.8 seconds (and i am able to do so a 100 times in a row if my stamina would last for that many dodgerolls).
With your timing either a dodgroll would animate in 0.2 (edit: with your timing the dodgeroll would have no animation at all - whoops) seconds or it would take me 4.4 seconds to perform three dodgerolls.

Maybe your frametimes are off.

I can log into the game and perform dodgerolls back to back and i am able do a dodgeroll every second. I don´t know why your char is not able to do so. Its either a user error, game error, hardware error on your side or you´re doing it on purpose.

the problem is the window is determined by your ping - hence why its completly impossible to escape from a zerg as the netcode cant handle the server client communication while you have nearly no time inbetween in a deserted area [gues why he chose craglorn evil to him who evil thinks...] thats why some player can be hit while others cant. its the same issue you can envision with BE some players have nearly no latency inbetween two casts while other literaly have to wait for a second and more. the mechanic is the same for both players but the execution thx to the horrible net code is the crux.

Well, this is going off topic again but: it's not latency.

I haven't come across a player that couldn't be hit between the roll dodges yet. All you have to do is change the rhythm of your attacks, it's very simple really

My video was also not made to showcase "this is where I get hit by roll dodges", it's the window of time I use to hit other players while they're roll dodging.