Feedback to the Champion System

Tyr

henryabelarwb17_ESO wrote: »

What about the xp that was supposed to be saved? has that been scrapped?

Yes, this was a compromise to assuage the community's rage about that.

Darklord_Tiberius

Inklings wrote: »

This system would have been great to see implemented in 1.7 with NO cap. I would have been so happy to see everyone get the 30cp in 1.6 then have us be rightfully rewarded in 1.7 with the xp to cp conversion we deserve when all our vr levels are stripped from us. This new system is still shorting people with multiple vr14s who have expended massive amounts of ways to get exp in the old system. Its not fully addressing the problem but its a step in the right direction.

This makes me laugh. Some people still complaining about it even though ZOS is making a compromise.

Tavore1138

A decent compromise - it always worried me that in a system with 3600 points available dishing out an extra double figure number was apparently game breaking in terms of level. This change suggests they have fixed that concern and given a nod to longer term players - as I have spent a scary number of hours playing I will not ask for a CP per hour conversion...

(Yes 2k+ and holding down a job and a marriage... )

bosmern_ESO

Im glad that ZoS listened and improved this, but it still kinda sucks for players like me who have spent the time to raise more than one Character to V14. I'm still happy though!

xaraan

Thank you.

Teiji

Today is a great day for such a great thread.

Dominoid

nikos wrote: »

In my opinion, this is very bad decision. In this case, player who has one vr14 character and player who has 8 vr14 characters will receive same number of CP. But player with one vr14 character can claim much more CP point while playing other new characters after update 6 was released, as opposed to player with 8 vr14 chars, who should delete some chars and start playing with new one to claim any additional CP points.

This isn't true. Those with 8 VR14 characters are doing SOMETHING every day that generates high XP. They will still gain CP faster than those that can quest for XP.

Elder_III

This system makes good sense to me and I'm more then happy with it. Bring on the Champion system!

Inklings

Darklord_Tiberius wrote: »

Inklings wrote: »

This system would have been great to see implemented in 1.7 with NO cap. I would have been so happy to see everyone get the 30cp in 1.6 then have us be rightfully rewarded in 1.7 with the xp to cp conversion we deserve when all our vr levels are stripped from us. This new system is still shorting people with multiple vr14s who have expended massive amounts of ways to get exp in the old system. Its not fully addressing the problem but its a step in the right direction.

This makes me laugh. Some people still complaining about it even though ZOS is making a compromise.

I gave the post an "awesome" click. Said its a step in the right dirrection and im genuinely happy for my friends/guildies with 1 vr14 who are now being rewarded properly.

The fact is though, it doesn't address the problem completely. Anyone who understands what those of us with lots of vr14 characters are losing wouldn't be laughing and calling our concerns complaining. The massive amounts of xp lost through questing is a legit concern and to call it a "compromise" shows you don't truly understand what some players are losing.

NordJitsu

I'm not surprised that there were some negative comments in this thread, because it's the internet. I will say though that I was genuinely clueless as to what people would be complaining about.

This is a great change and anyone who isn't happy about it is just trying to hard to hate ZOS.

xaraan

I never expected to have hundreds of points over starting vets, but this is fair. I have 5 v14s and I knew I'd miss out on some points and don't expect any different. This is a good middle ground.

Unknown_poster

Too little..too late. Game has been deleted from hard drive and have moved on to other things. Might be back when it goes free to play in the spring just to see the rage.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

what i dont rly get is...we still have the 100 cap of points per tree? basicaly we gona have 70/100 points? or 70/300 points?

Unknown_poster

It's not a troll to point out dissatisfaction with game and direction. They have made this change because they realized they stepped on their wangs with intial idea, and instead of truly making the system reward those that have been here since launch, have still decided to put in a cap. I have a vr14 of each class, two mid-range, and two storage characters. This "conversion" system still screws people who have put in more time than others, and gives no incentive to play atm. For the free to play comment, look to SWTOR. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Mujuro

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌
While this new approach is, IMO, more palatable to current VR14s than the "30-for-any-vet-level' approach, a concern remains:

How will VR14 "max" characters who've done the content (completed quests, achievements, etc.) vs. those who level-grinded earn champion points AFTER the update goes live? The strong implication appears to be that earning champion points in the future is directly (or indirectly, because of quest-related XP amounts) tied to questing and, if we've already completed all the quests, we're a bit screwed relative to those who've not, and be at a relative disadvantage to those who did level-grinding instead of quests.

Stated differently, are we going to be stuck in the same situation as with the update 5 "undaunted" skill line, where those who never did any undaunted dungeons reached level 9 faster than those who'd already hit the max prior to the update?

Fecius

Sounds Cool!

Inklings

Mujuro wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌
While this new approach is, IMO, more palatable to current VR14s than the "30-for-any-vet-level' approach, a concern remains:

How will VR14 "max" characters who've done the content (completed quests, achievements, etc.) vs. those who level-grinded earn champion points AFTER the update goes live? The strong implication appears to be that earning champion points in the future is directly (or indirectly, because of quest-related XP amounts) tied to questing and, if we've already completed all the quests, we're a bit screwed relative to those who've not, and be at a relative disadvantage to those who did level-grinding instead of quests.

Stated differently, are we going to be stuck in the same situation as with the update 5 "undaunted" skill line, where those who never did any undaunted dungeons reached level 9 faster than those who'd already hit the max prior to the update?

We really wont know if that is the case until we get the PTS. One reason why im saying it wont be is that the 200,000k xp per CP is only happening when you log in. Gaining CP after that is going to be 1 million per xp so hope that evens it out? Again, we cant be sure but im sure that will be one of the first things brought up if there are issues once this goes live to pts.

danno8

Mujuro wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌
While this new approach is, IMO, more palatable to current VR14s than the "30-for-any-vet-level' approach, a concern remains:

How will VR14 "max" characters who've done the content (completed quests, achievements, etc.) vs. those who level-grinded earn champion points AFTER the update goes live? The strong implication appears to be that earning champion points in the future is directly (or indirectly, because of quest-related XP amounts) tied to questing and, if we've already completed all the quests, we're a bit screwed relative to those who've not, and be at a relative disadvantage to those who did level-grinding instead of quests.

Stated differently, are we going to be stuck in the same situation as with the update 5 "undaunted" skill line, where those who never did any undaunted dungeons reached level 9 faster than those who'd already hit the max prior to the update?

Won't it just mean those characters that grinded mobs to VR14 will get 13 more points arguably a little easier than VR14 characters that have already done them?

It's 13 points out of 3600. It will make no difference in the long run.

Also, ZoS said they are trying to make it so questing, grinding, dungeons, PvP etc.. all give a similar amount of XP/hour.

Davadin

not so much the details and how the new system really rocks...

...but the fact that you guys actually listened and did something tangible to address it.

That shows class.

That shows respect.

Bravo.

Iluvrien

Unknown_poster wrote: »

<things>

I saw the name. Made a guess about the nature of the posts. Was right. Thanks for the chuckle.

Mujuro wrote: »

How will VR14 "max" characters who've done the content (completed quests, achievements, etc.) vs. those who level-grinded earn champion points AFTER the update goes live? The strong implication appears to be that earning champion points in the future is directly (or indirectly, because of quest-related XP amounts) tied to questing and, if we've already completed all the quests, we're a bit screwed relative to those who've not, and be at a relative disadvantage to those who did level-grinding instead of quests.

Do what they did but in reverse order? If they grinded the levels first and now have quests available to them then, until new content is released, you could take the same steps but in reverse order i.e. you have done the quests and are now free to do as much grinding as you like. After all, in the end, in both cases the behavior and outcome end up being the same.

This does, of course, not take into account inclination. I have seen posts from people on these forums that suggest that they have no interest in questing now or ever. So even though these people have the quests (and the easy xp that they are said to represent) open to them in the CS they may well not take it up because it isn’t something they are interested in. In the same way those who prefer questing may well have no interest in grinding. While I do believe that these players are in more of a bind, if they have completed every non-repeatable quest and have no interest in dailies, I do not believe this will be a permanent state of affairs as we already have talk of new zones (Wrothgar).

My central point is this, while I believe that solo-PVE players are at a disadvantage, I do not believe the disadvantage is dramatic enough to require ZOS to have to come up with a solution that addresses the individual playstyles of each player… which is pretty much I estimate that it would come down to in the end.

This change will see me worse off initially, as I only have a single V5 and so I am likely to only get 25CP rather than the 30CP I would have gotten before. However, since I publicly stated I would happily get 0CP (and keep playing through unrepeatable content in the meantime) if it helped to ease the vile atmosphere on the forums, I look on this in a fairly positive fashion. It isn’t perfect, but I would be put to it to try and think of anything better.

[EDIT: Minor edit to cut incredibly long sentences down to merely stupidly long.]

rylixav

Hey Gina, thanks for these changes and for posting the explanation here. More information and more communication from the devs is always a good thing.

Overall these changes are very good.

VileIntent

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hello everyone,

It’s normal in development to change how a system is going to be implemented from its original design. When we talk about designs early, we do so in order to get feedback and give you some insight to the direction we're taking. However, it's likely there may be changes along the way as we perform tests internally. Still, there is value in putting information out early.

Late last month, we announced changes to our original design for the Champion System, and provided a fairly thorough explanation as to why we decided to do this. Of specific concern was the conversion system of XP to Champion Points. What we had decided was if you had at least one Veteran Rank character, you would get a total of 30 Champion Points for your account. The Veteran Rank wouldn’t matter; all players with at least one Veteran character would get the same amount of Champion Points. We received a lot of feedback about these changes. Most of it centered around the concern that higher ranked Veteran characters were losing progress in the Champion System because they would have less opportunity to earn Champion Points, having already done a substantial amount of content.

Based off this feedback, we will be altering the conversion system with the following design:

• Any Veteran Rank character that logs in after the system goes live will get 5 Champion Points added to the account for each full Veteran Rank that character has achieved.
  • Partial credit will be given for XP earned within a Veteran Rank. This is based on a fraction of the total XP contained within the level. One Veteran Rank is currently 1,000,000XP, so the conversion system will grant you one Champion Point for every 200,000XP within a Veteran Rank.
  • For example, if you are Veteran Rank 12 and have 800,000XP progress towards Veteran Rank 13, you will receive 59 Champion Points after the system goes live.
    • EXTREMELY IMPORTANT: Only the conversion system will use 200,000XP for one Champion Point the day the system goes live in Update 6. This is not what it will take to earn a Champion Point while playing normally once the Champion System is live.
  • It is possible that a Veteran Rank 1 character may not have earned 200,000XP into Veteran Rank 1. In this case, you will not receive a Champion Point after the system goes live.
• Champion Points are shared across all characters as the system is account wide, but for the conversion of XP to Champion Points, no more than 70 Champion Points will be given to an account.
• A VR14 character can receive up to 70 Champion Points depending on how much XP into VR14 they are, but 70 is the maximum the conversion system will give out for the account.
• If you have multiple Veteran Rank characters, you will receive credit for each Veteran Rank upon logging into each character (provided the account has not reached 70 Champion Points given out in the conversion).
• Only currently existing characters created before Update 6 goes live are eligible to use points from the conversion pool. You must have at least one Veteran Rank character in order to receive Champion Points from this conversion pool to your account.
• The 70 Champion Points from the conversion pool will never get more points added to it - only subtracted. If there’s a situation where you don’t use up all 70 points once the system is live, they will never be used since this only applies to characters you have preceding Update 6.
  • For example, if you have just one fresh VR4 character in your account, you’ll receive 15 Champion Points from the conversion after you log in. You will never be able to use the remaining 55 Points since it only applies to pre-existing characters prior to Update 6.

We know this may be confusing at first glance so to make sure everyone understands, we’d like to provide a few additional examples:

1. You have one full VR14 character and one VR6 character that hasn’t earned any XP when the system goes live. You log in with the VR14 first and are granted 70 Champion Points from the conversion. You log in later with your VR6, and are able to use 70 Champion Points due to them being account wide.
2. You have just one VR5 character with 400,000XP toward the next Veteran Rank. When you log in, you are granted 22 Champion Points from the conversion. After you spend your points, you immediately create a new character. That character does not get any Champion Points from the conversion, but can use the 22 Champion Points from the account pool.
3. Here’s a complicated one: You have one fresh VR14, one VR6 with 800,000XP toward the next Veteran Rank, one new VR3 character, and one level 25 character. You log in with the VR6 first and receive 29 Champion Points from the conversion. Then you log in with your VR3 and receive 10 Champion Points from the conversion; you now have 39 points in your account to use. You log in with your level 25 and don’t receive any new points from the conversion, but are able to use the 39 points from the account. Finally, you log in with your VR14 and are granted 31 additional Champion Points from the conversion, since you can only receive a total of 70 Champion Points from the conversion.
4. You have one full VR14 character and one new VR4 character. You log in with your VR4 and receive 15 Champion Points. You begin to quest and play for a while, and receive 3 more Champion Points throughout your session. Later, you log in with your VR14. You receive 55 Points from the conversion, and are able to use 73 Champion Points – 70 from the total conversion, and 3 from the earlier play session. You play with this character for a while, and receive 2 more Champion Points from normal play. You now have 75 Champion Points in your account. Later, you start a new character; that character can use 75 Champion Points immediately.

Once again, we’d like to thank everyone for your feedback. We believe the system outlined above still meets our goals for the initial rollout of the Champion System while also addressing some of the more pressing concerns.

would this not alienate multiple characters on a single account? Why not just have a shared account XP for all level 50 characters?
This way no matter what max level character I am on I contribute to my total champion xp. By this current system I would fall behind in total levels if persay I was asked to raid on a different character or if my A.D.D. had me wanting to swap characters.
IE. I play a level 50 sorc one night for 300k worth of xp. then the next night I play a DK for 300k xp. the third night I play a NB for 400k xp...
Your setup, I still have not leveled. if it were shared at max level i would have.

food for thought.

Elendor

So basically, we go from one system where we were screwed if we had characters above VR1, to another where we are now screwed if we have more than one VR14 character. Brilliant!

If you have 6 VR characters, 5 of them being max VR, you were gonna be limited to 30 champion points on each character. Not much, no point AT ALL having those characters to max VR except making your life more difficult. But account-wide, you were gonna get 180 points, equally split on each.

Now, you log on your first VR14 character and get 70 points. And that's all you get, instead of 180 total. And you're still screwed on all the other characters that already worked their way to VR14 by doing parts of the pve content.

You either put your points on one char, and end up having the rest being the equivalent of non-VR characters, with a lot of VR content already done. Or you split, and end up with,... 15 points per character! A big bunch of VR3 equivalents!
This Is Just Awesoooome!

Ahdora

Elendor wrote: »

So basically, we go from one system where we were screwed if we had characters above VR1, to another where we are now screwed if we have more than one VR14 character. Brilliant!

If you have 6 VR characters, 5 of them being max VR, you were gonna be limited to 30 champion points on each character. Not much, no point AT ALL having those characters to max VR except making your life more difficult. But account-wide, you were gonna get 180 points, equally split on each.

Now, you log on your first VR14 character and get 70 points. And that's all you get, instead of 180 total. And you're still screwed on all the other characters that already worked their way to VR14 by doing parts of the pve content.

You either put your points on one char, and end up having the rest being the equivalent of non-VR characters, with a lot of VR content already done. Or you split, and end up with,... 15 points per character! A big bunch of VR3 equivalents!
This Is Just Awesoooome!

You misunderstood... well, everything.

You were never going to get 180 points. You were going to get 30. They could be spent on every character individually. Now you get 70 that can be spent the same way. Each character has the 70 to spend, you're not splitting them.

kelly.medleyb14_ESO

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hello everyone,

It’s normal in development to change how a system is going to be implemented from its original design. When we talk about designs early, we do so in order to get feedback and give you some insight to the direction we're taking. However, it's likely there may be changes along the way as we perform tests internally. Still, there is value in putting information out early.

Late last month, we announced changes to our original design for the Champion System, and provided a fairly thorough explanation as to why we decided to do this. Of specific concern was the conversion system of XP to Champion Points. What we had decided was if you had at least one Veteran Rank character, you would get a total of 30 Champion Points for your account. The Veteran Rank wouldn’t matter; all players with at least one Veteran character would get the same amount of Champion Points. We received a lot of feedback about these changes. Most of it centered around the concern that higher ranked Veteran characters were losing progress in the Champion System because they would have less opportunity to earn Champion Points, having already done a substantial amount of content.

Based off this feedback, we will be altering the conversion system with the following design:

• Any Veteran Rank character that logs in after the system goes live will get 5 Champion Points added to the account for each full Veteran Rank that character has achieved.
  • Partial credit will be given for XP earned within a Veteran Rank. This is based on a fraction of the total XP contained within the level. One Veteran Rank is currently 1,000,000XP, so the conversion system will grant you one Champion Point for every 200,000XP within a Veteran Rank.
  • For example, if you are Veteran Rank 12 and have 800,000XP progress towards Veteran Rank 13, you will receive 59 Champion Points after the system goes live.
    • EXTREMELY IMPORTANT: Only the conversion system will use 200,000XP for one Champion Point the day the system goes live in Update 6. This is not what it will take to earn a Champion Point while playing normally once the Champion System is live.
  • It is possible that a Veteran Rank 1 character may not have earned 200,000XP into Veteran Rank 1. In this case, you will not receive a Champion Point after the system goes live.
• Champion Points are shared across all characters as the system is account wide, but for the conversion of XP to Champion Points, no more than 70 Champion Points will be given to an account.
• A VR14 character can receive up to 70 Champion Points depending on how much XP into VR14 they are, but 70 is the maximum the conversion system will give out for the account.
• If you have multiple Veteran Rank characters, you will receive credit for each Veteran Rank upon logging into each character (provided the account has not reached 70 Champion Points given out in the conversion).
• Only currently existing characters created before Update 6 goes live are eligible to use points from the conversion pool. You must have at least one Veteran Rank character in order to receive Champion Points from this conversion pool to your account.
• The 70 Champion Points from the conversion pool will never get more points added to it - only subtracted. If there’s a situation where you don’t use up all 70 points once the system is live, they will never be used since this only applies to characters you have preceding Update 6.
  • For example, if you have just one fresh VR4 character in your account, you’ll receive 15 Champion Points from the conversion after you log in. You will never be able to use the remaining 55 Points since it only applies to pre-existing characters prior to Update 6.

We know this may be confusing at first glance so to make sure everyone understands, we’d like to provide a few additional examples:

1. You have one full VR14 character and one VR6 character that hasn’t earned any XP when the system goes live. You log in with the VR14 first and are granted 70 Champion Points from the conversion. You log in later with your VR6, and are able to use 70 Champion Points due to them being account wide.
2. You have just one VR5 character with 400,000XP toward the next Veteran Rank. When you log in, you are granted 22 Champion Points from the conversion. After you spend your points, you immediately create a new character. That character does not get any Champion Points from the conversion, but can use the 22 Champion Points from the account pool.
3. Here’s a complicated one: You have one fresh VR14, one VR6 with 800,000XP toward the next Veteran Rank, one new VR3 character, and one level 25 character. You log in with the VR6 first and receive 29 Champion Points from the conversion. Then you log in with your VR3 and receive 10 Champion Points from the conversion; you now have 39 points in your account to use. You log in with your level 25 and don’t receive any new points from the conversion, but are able to use the 39 points from the account. Finally, you log in with your VR14 and are granted 31 additional Champion Points from the conversion, since you can only receive a total of 70 Champion Points from the conversion.
4. You have one full VR14 character and one new VR4 character. You log in with your VR4 and receive 15 Champion Points. You begin to quest and play for a while, and receive 3 more Champion Points throughout your session. Later, you log in with your VR14. You receive 55 Points from the conversion, and are able to use 73 Champion Points – 70 from the total conversion, and 3 from the earlier play session. You play with this character for a while, and receive 2 more Champion Points from normal play. You now have 75 Champion Points in your account. Later, you start a new character; that character can use 75 Champion Points immediately.

Once again, we’d like to thank everyone for your feedback. We believe the system outlined above still meets our goals for the initial rollout of the Champion System while also addressing some of the more pressing concerns.

Much to you Gina and the devs I have high hopes for you guys

Elendor

Ahdora wrote: »

...

Are you absolutely sure that's how it's going to work? In which case the 'account pool' is more like threshold to unlock that an actual pool filling and emptying?

What i mean by that is, spending points doesn't actually spend them from the account pool, they will still be available on another character? So basically if you unlock an extra 5 points on one character by getting xp, you 'unlock' 75 points on your account, and each character now has a total of 75 points to spend?

If that's how it's going to work, that'd be quite fair, but then I don't see why we have people with high playtime and many maxed characters complaining about having to delete some of their characters to redo some xp. Each char would still have 70 CP to spend, there is no reason to complain about not being able to instantly put 300 CP on one char by having all the points from different characters stacked together.

If it is confirmed that you still get to spend 70 points on each character, i'd be quite happy with that. If that's not how it's gonna work, I do feel kinda screwed.

Ahdora

Elendor wrote: »

Ahdora wrote: »

...

Are you absolutely sure that's how it's going to work? In which case the 'account pool' is more like threshold to unlock that an actual pool filling and emptying?

What i mean by that is, spending points doesn't actually spend them from the account pool, they will still be available on another character? So basically if you unlock an extra 5 points on one character by getting xp, you 'unlock' 75 points on your account, and each character now has a total of 75 points to spend?

If that's how it's going to work, that'd be quite fair, but then I don't see why we have people with high playtime and many maxed characters complaining about having to delete some of their characters to redo some xp. Each char would still have 70 CP to spend, there is no reason to complain about not being able to instantly put 300 CP on one char by having all the points from different characters stacked together.

If it is confirmed that you still get to spend 70 points on each character, i'd be quite happy with that. If that's not how it's gonna work, I do feel kinda screwed.

Yes, absolutely sure. It's been confirmed and was explained in both the original 30cp announcement, and this one.

All cp earned are added to the account total, which can then be spent by each character individually.

BalerionBlackDread

Elendor wrote: »

Ahdora wrote: »

...

Are you absolutely sure that's how it's going to work? In which case the 'account pool' is more like threshold to unlock that an actual pool filling and emptying?

What i mean by that is, spending points doesn't actually spend them from the account pool, they will still be available on another character? So basically if you unlock an extra 5 points on one character by getting xp, you 'unlock' 75 points on your account, and each character now has a total of 75 points to spend?

If that's how it's going to work, that'd be quite fair, but then I don't see why we have people with high playtime and many maxed characters complaining about having to delete some of their characters to redo some xp. Each char would still have 70 CP to spend, there is no reason to complain about not being able to instantly put 300 CP on one char by having all the points from different characters stacked together.

If it is confirmed that you still get to spend 70 points on each character, i'd be quite happy with that. If that's not how it's gonna work, I do feel kinda screwed.

Every CP you get from launch to the end is available for every one of your toons. If you have a V14 with the 70 cap and 7 other toons at lvl 1, the V14 will have 70 points, the level 1 will have 70 points, the other level one will have 70 points, and so on. It will be that way always. Every point earned (only by lvl 50+ toons) is useable by every toon on your account and will not be 'spent' when used.

Kraven

@elendor
Simply put if I play my V14 and earn 5 CP, I can then log into my V1 spend those 5 points then log into my V12 spend those 5 points, then log into my V2 spend those 5 points. Then if I earn 5 more on that V2 character I can do it all over again, switching characters and spending points.

Champion system is account based like much in the game.

Jaxsun

Thank you!