Fixing Sorceres in 1.6

Vahrokh

NordJitsu wrote: »

First, a quick recap of the significant changes that have been made to Sorcerer since launch:


-decreased AoE cap on Streak.

-Removed Taunt from Storm Atronoch.

-Made Familiar get affected by Fighters Guild abilities.

-Added AoE cap to Negate Magic

-Increased damage on Crystal Blast (presumably to encourage someone to actually use this morph.)

-Removed armor/spell-resistances bonuses to Dark Deal but made it mobile.

-Made pets semi-functional (they can sneak, you can give them targets)

-Increased cost and light attack damage for Overload.

-Bolt Escape now costs 50% more if cast within 4 secs of a previous cast (actually more like ~75% due to the way it's calculate.)

-Bolt Escape cannot be used while carrying a scroll.

-Bolt Escape cuts magicka regeneration in half for 4 seconds after use.

You missed: "greatly reduced elemental ring radius".

Vahrokh

Gorthax wrote: »

We should just accept the role non melee non bow sorcs have now been given.

Dust taking ornament?

Vahrokh

Jaerlach wrote: »

Magicka sorc dps is a bit lacking, as is templar. Stamina is good on all 4 classes. All 4 classes can also succeed as tanks and healers.

While magicka sorc needs some help, let's stop talking as though it isn't performing as it should in the other 3 specs. Stamina dps sorcerors are probably the 2nd strongest stamina dps due to critical surge. Sorc tanking is even fine though quite rare.

Maybe it's just me but in the 10 PvE guilds I know, there's not a single tank sorc nor a single main healer sorc. They go for DK / NB / Templar tanks and templar healers + random offheal.

NordJitsu

Vahrokh wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

First, a quick recap of the significant changes that have been made to Sorcerer since launch:


-decreased AoE cap on Streak.

-Removed Taunt from Storm Atronoch.

-Made Familiar get affected by Fighters Guild abilities.

-Added AoE cap to Negate Magic

-Increased damage on Crystal Blast (presumably to encourage someone to actually use this morph.)

-Removed armor/spell-resistances bonuses to Dark Deal but made it mobile.

-Made pets semi-functional (they can sneak, you can give them targets)

-Increased cost and light attack damage for Overload.

-Bolt Escape now costs 50% more if cast within 4 secs of a previous cast (actually more like ~75% due to the way it's calculate.)

-Bolt Escape cannot be used while carrying a scroll.

-Bolt Escape cuts magicka regeneration in half for 4 seconds after use.

You missed: "greatly reduced elemental ring radius".

Well that wasn't a change to the sorc class.

There were a bunch of changes like that though (like nerfing resto staff) that hurt the common builds, but not the class specifically.

Holycannoli

I don't know about for PvP but what about the other summons we're used to from other TES games? Flame atronachs, frost atronachs and my favorite of all: two permanent zombie thralls?

And storm atronachs definitely need their taunt back.

It's pretty obvious they want summoning to be a focus for the class and yet summoning is the most lackluster skill line in the game. Three whole types of pets we can summon and none are any good.

That's not to mention the fact that sorcerer magical DPS should be highest of the four classes. They dropped the ball majorly when they made destruction staff the magical DPS skill line.

Gorthax

Vahrokh wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

We should just accept the role non melee non bow sorcs have now been given.

Dust taking ornament?

Exactly. It is really sad too

DeLindsay

Vahrokh wrote: »

Dust taking ornament?

Don't forget your Pets playing the "I'm not touching you" game when you want them to attack an enemy.

Nightreaver

Jaerlach wrote: »

Every class in this game is intended to be played in all 4 roles. Sorcerors do not have any more design preference for magicka dps over stamina than dks have preference for tanking over either dps variant.

I would disagree that there aren't preferred roles for each of the 4 classes.

I'm sure the developers intended Sorcerers to be just as good a Healer as a Templar who has an entire line devoted to healing..... except that Sorcerers have zero heals.

I'm sure the developers intended Sorcerers to be just as good at stealth as a Nightblade who can go invis and has an entire line devoted to stealth..... except that Sorcerers can't invis and have no stealth abilities.

I'm sure the developers intended to be just as good at melee as Dragonknights who can do physical damage and have an entire line devoted to melee damage..... except that Sorcerers have no abilities that do physical damage and have zero offensive melee abilities.

And finally I'm sure developers intended all the other classes to do just as well with pets as Sorcerers who have an entire line devoted to pets..... except no other class possesses an ability that allows them to summon pets. Oh wait, there is that one armor set so I guess they are intended to be just as good.

So let's recap. Sorcerers have no healing abilities, cannot go invis or possess any stealth abilities, nor do they have any abilities that do physical damage or possess any offensive melee abilities.

What they do have are ranged DPS abilities, they just need a lot of work to bring them in line with DKs and NBs. Hopefully 1.6 will accomplish that.

Jaerlach wrote: »

The fastest vet dsa time on north America features ajyn, a dual wield khajit sorc.

Two concerns here.
1) Why a dual wield Sorc?If he wants to melee then wouldn't he be better off as a DK or NB? Both of which do better DPS and have class abilities that actually support melee.
2) It confirms that Stamina Sorc builds do better than Magicka Sorc builds AND YET in 1.6 they are nerfing Surge for Magicka builds while leaving it the same for Stamina builds. How does that make sense?

Shunravi

Nightreaver wrote: »

Jaerlach wrote: »

Every class in this game is intended to be played in all 4 roles. Sorcerors do not have any more design preference for magicka dps over stamina than dks have preference for tanking over either dps variant.

I would disagree that there aren't preferred roles for each of the 4 classes.

I'm sure the developers intended Sorcerers to be just as good a Healer as a Templar who has an entire line devoted to healing..... except that Sorcerers have zero heals.

I'm sure the developers intended Sorcerers to be just as good at stealth as a Nightblade who can go invis and has an entire line devoted to stealth..... except that Sorcerers can't invis and have no stealth abilities.

I'm sure the developers intended to be just as good at melee as Dragonknights who can do physical damage and have an entire line devoted to melee damage..... except that Sorcerers have no abilities that do physical damage and have zero offensive melee abilities.

And finally I'm sure developers intended all the other classes to do just as well with pets as Sorcerers who have an entire line devoted to pets..... except no other class possesses an ability that allows them to summon pets. Oh wait, there is that one armor set so I guess they are intended to be just as good.

So let's recap. Sorcerers have no healing abilities, cannot go invis or possess any stealth abilities, nor do they have any abilities that do physical damage or possess any offensive melee abilities.

What they do have are ranged DPS abilities, they just need a lot of work to bring them in line with DKs and NBs. Hopefully 1.6 will accomplish that.

Jaerlach wrote: »

The fastest vet dsa time on north America features ajyn, a dual wield khajit sorc.

Two concerns here.
1) Why a dual wield Sorc?If he wants to melee then wouldn't he be better off as a DK or NB? Both of which do better DPS and have class abilities that actually support melee.
2) It confirms that Stamina Sorc builds do better than Magicka Sorc builds AND YET in 1.6 they are nerfing Surge for Magicka builds while leaving it the same for Stamina builds. How does that make sense?

I don't see a minimum range on those ranged abilities.

NordJitsu

Holycannoli wrote: »

I don't know about for PvP but what about the other summons we're used to from other TES games? Flame atronachs, frost atronachs and my favorite of all: two permanent zombie thralls?

And storm atronachs definitely need their taunt back.

It's pretty obvious they want summoning to be a focus for the class and yet summoning is the most lackluster skill line in the game. Three whole types of pets we can summon and none are any good.

That's not to mention the fact that sorcerer magical DPS should be highest of the four classes. They dropped the ball majorly when they made destruction staff the magical DPS skill line.

I think both Atronoch and Clanfear should taunt.

Shunravi

NordJitsu wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

I don't know about for PvP but what about the other summons we're used to from other TES games? Flame atronachs, frost atronachs and my favorite of all: two permanent zombie thralls?

And storm atronachs definitely need their taunt back.

It's pretty obvious they want summoning to be a focus for the class and yet summoning is the most lackluster skill line in the game. Three whole types of pets we can summon and none are any good.

That's not to mention the fact that sorcerer magical DPS should be highest of the four classes. They dropped the ball majorly when they made destruction staff the magical DPS skill line.

I think both Atronoch and Clanfear should taunt.

I think it would be great if they had a controllable taunt. Or even an effect that causes a taunt with certain abilities.

That way, they would not be as likely to cause the tank to drop agro, and could be accepted in endgame...

Overtaunting sucks.

Nightreaver

Shunravi wrote: »

I don't see a minimum range on those ranged abilities.

I don't see one on Bow abilities either and yet I've never seen anyone using a bow for melee.

Nightreaver

NordJitsu wrote: »

I think both Atronoch and Clanfear should taunt.

Just as there are reasons for Atronachs and Clanfears to have taunt, there are situations where Atronachs and melee pets are better without taunt.

ZOS made it so we can have pets attack and we can have them back off. Would be nice if they did the same thing for Taunt. Give us a keybind that allows us to turn on Taunt or disable it.

Spangla

NordJitsu wrote: »

Spangla wrote: »

ummmm?

Is this thread a troll?

It most certainly isn't widely known that sorcs are the worst in pvp.....

Pretty sure you are just doing it wrong

Care to back up your forum warriorship with a duel? Or are you just flame baiting?

Get constructive or get out of the thread.

Yes i'll duel - What I have learned from dueling is sorcs are probably the best at it of all class's

Spangla

Nord Ostrich:)

Jaerlach

Nightreaver wrote: »

Jaerlach wrote: »

Every class in this game is intended to be played in all 4 roles. Sorcerors do not have any more design preference for magicka dps over stamina than dks have preference for tanking over either dps variant.

I would disagree that there aren't preferred roles for each of the 4 classes.

I'm sure the developers intended Sorcerers to be just as good a Healer as a Templar who has an entire line devoted to healing..... except that Sorcerers have zero heals.

I'm sure the developers intended Sorcerers to be just as good at stealth as a Nightblade who can go invis and has an entire line devoted to stealth..... except that Sorcerers can't invis and have no stealth abilities.

I'm sure the developers intended to be just as good at melee as Dragonknights who can do physical damage and have an entire line devoted to melee damage..... except that Sorcerers have no abilities that do physical damage and have zero offensive melee abilities.

And finally I'm sure developers intended all the other classes to do just as well with pets as Sorcerers who have an entire line devoted to pets..... except no other class possesses an ability that allows them to summon pets. Oh wait, there is that one armor set so I guess they are intended to be just as good.

So let's recap. Sorcerers have no healing abilities, cannot go invis or possess any stealth abilities, nor do they have any abilities that do physical damage or possess any offensive melee abilities.

What they do have are ranged DPS abilities, they just need a lot of work to bring them in line with DKs and NBs. Hopefully 1.6 will accomplish that.

Jaerlach wrote: »

The fastest vet dsa time on north America features ajyn, a dual wield khajit sorc.

Two concerns here.
1) Why a dual wield Sorc?If he wants to melee then wouldn't he be better off as a DK or NB? Both of which do better DPS and have class abilities that actually support melee.
2) It confirms that Stamina Sorc builds do better than Magicka Sorc builds AND YET in 1.6 they are nerfing Surge for Magicka builds while leaving it the same for Stamina builds. How does that make sense?

Critical surge is a melee ability.

Lightning form is a melee ability.

Ajyn was more effective than others because he brought mad dps due to crit surge while requiring zero healing even in vet dsa part 10. Imagine the hps of a crit build rapid strikes spammer dealing 1400 dps with 70% crit.

He might have out healed the templar just on himself.

Look, every class is meant to be viable in every role and as stam and magicka. Yes, each class has some help towards some of those: breath of life is the most significant. Every class has viable tanking skills. Sorc tanks have unique challenges (no gdb or breath to selfheal) and unique strengths.

Magicka ranged dps from templar and sorc need help. But the reality is they are the only two specs that can't be built to handle endgame content. Other healer vs breath is the next biggest hurdle and while most groups nerd a templar healer, the main reason additional templar are wanted is novas.

Dk are this games best designed class and you should look at how they function in the game as the goal for all 4 classes:

Tanking: excellent
magicka dps: excellent
stamina dps: strong despite no synergistic class abilities
heals: best burst healing after templar, no advantage in sustained healing, can heal all content not gated by breath of life


This is how all 4 classes need to function as only having 4 classes with only 1 or 2 viable roles each is too repetitive.

You need to help magicka sorc without harming everything else, because ZoS won't give up the stam, tank and healing specs to improve ranged Magicka dps. If anything they probably want to buff those too.

olsborg

Agreed OP.

daemonios

Jaerlach wrote: »

Look, every class is meant to be viable in every role and as stam and magicka. Yes, each class has some help towards some of those: breath of life is the most significant. Every class has viable tanking skills. Sorc tanks have unique challenges (no gdb or breath to selfheal) and unique strengths.

Magicka ranged dps from templar and sorc need help. But the reality is they are the only two specs that can't be built to handle endgame content. Other healer vs breath is the next biggest hurdle and while most groups nerd a templar healer, the main reason additional templar are wanted is novas.

Dk are this games best designed class and you should look at how they function in the game as the goal for all 4 classes:

Tanking: excellent
magicka dps: excellent
stamina dps: strong despite no synergistic class abilities
heals: best burst healing after templar, no advantage in sustained healing, can heal all content not gated by breath of life


This is how all 4 classes need to function as only having 4 classes with only 1 or 2 viable roles each is too repetitive.

You need to help magicka sorc without harming everything else, because ZoS won't give up the stam, tank and healing specs to improve ranged Magicka dps. If anything they probably want to buff those too.

I couldn't have said it better. Please make magicka sorcs viable. No need to nerf anyone else.

Derra

Jahosefat wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Put on some heavy armor dude. Thats what the sorc is about.

Link please?

I should have used something like /endsarcasm

There are people to be found on these forums who will tell you exactly this whilst linking you to the morrowind and/or oblivion sorcerer class description though.

Jaerlach wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Jahosefat wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Put on some heavy armor dude. Thats what the sorc is about.

Link please?

No just kidding, heavy armor is useless if you're not tanking. If you die from melee attacks just make an jewelry enchantment with +600 armor but dont bother with heavy armor.

The fastest vet dsa time on north America features ajyn, a dual wield khajit sorc.

High end stamina dps is rarer because it needs more trials drops to shine, like two fanged snake.

A magicka dk uses crafted gear and green soulshine.

If a build requires the most high end (random) drops in the game to shine it should not be consindered in this discussion imho.

Fayaburn

Jaerlach wrote: »

Ajyn was more effective than others because he brought mad dps due to crit surge while requiring zero healing even in vet dsa part 10. Imagine the hps of a crit build rapid strikes spammer dealing 1400 dps with 70% crit.

The problem with the Sorcerer class is not that they cannot find a viable DPS build. The stamina dual wield build has been known since even before open Beta (cf. Atropos reaver build).

The true problem is that any serious PvE DPS build can only rely on 2 sorc skills which are Surge and Mage Wrath. All the other skills are lacking in a way or another.
The sorcerer passives aren't that good either. Currently, the only passive worth mentionning in Dark Magic skill tree is Unholy Knowledge which reduces skills cost. The Daedric Summoning skill tree passives aren't better with the only really good one being Power Stone with Ult cost reduce.
This is what should be adressed with deep attention by game designers.

Concerning the upcoming changes for the Summoning with Update 6, I was not planning on going for a Pet build when I created my Sorcerer but will go for it if that allows a magicka Sorc to be truely competitive.
However, I have serious concerns about how this will all work out. My first concern is about the Skill slots remaining with a Pet build. The current toggle system is horrific.
Pet build skill slots repartition (10 slots available) : 2x Inner Light, 2x Familiar, 2x Twilight -> 4 skill slots remaining. You can add Velocious curse and Empowered ward to boost pet damage which you should do if going for pet build and you then only have 2 skill slots remaining.
Now for those 2 slots please choose between : Surge, Execute, Crushing shock, Crystal shard (if the cast time modification makes it usable), Evil hunter, Spell symetry, ...
Other concern is about Velocious Curse. It was said that the damage will be buffed, fine. But if this skill becomes mandatory for the Pet build that Zenimax wants us to use, I truely hope they modified the ridiculous restrictions that are bound to it. Two different sorcs not being able to use Velocious Curse simultaneously on one target is just plain nonsense (and the same goes for Templar's PoL).

Wisler89

woodsro wrote: »

I'm bummed about the loss of power surge because its the only morph worth taking. The extra duration is better then the crit heals.

In group content, I rely on my healer to heal, I stay out of red circles, etc. This means I don't have to recast surge every 20 secs I get 40 secs Instead which means less mana casting surge and more used to kill what I'm attacking, its 100% better from a resource management perspective. I always run resto staff anyways.

Now ill be stuck with a 20 sec duration to an expensive skill.

The morph should be either:

Crit surge-Increased weapon and spell damage heal on crit.

Power surge- increased weapon and spell damage, longer duration, and 5% higher damage buff at rank 4

Now we have 2 equally viable choices.

I agree if you are only running trials with your sorc, but as soon as you run around solo in craglorn (farming or for fun) or run vet dungeons or arena (and it is far easier to find a group for dungeons than for trials) the heal of crit surge is so much better. There were a few boss encounters where we only won because I could kill the boss (who had about 10% life left, specificly the ash titan in coa) solo thanks to crit surge and mages wrath (the other 3 in party were dead).

And am I the only one who think it's telling that something is wrong with sorc class skills if I only use two (or four if you count the atronach/negate ulti) class skills?

Septimus_Magna

Jaerlach wrote: »

The fastest vet dsa time on north America features ajyn, a dual wield khajit sorc.

High end stamina dps is rarer because it needs more trials drops to shine, like two fanged snake.

A magicka dk uses crafted gear and green soulshine.

Most magicka DKs have Aether set pieces, so also trail drops. I have two twice fanged snake swords and necklace so I might give it a try in update 6. Also because you get self healing from crit surge and a boost in weapon damage so that probably works better than magicka dps mage..

Exstazik

)Why only 1 Daedric Curse can be active at a time? And all Dk's Fire DOT can be applied by several DK's
2)Why "safe " abilities don't compare.For example : Bolt Escape if casting within 4 seconds costs 50% more and Dragon Fire Scale don't have any debuff

Tankqull

Exstazik wrote: »

)Why only 1 Daedric Curse can be active at a time? And all Dk's Fire DOT can be applied by several DK's
2)Why "safe " abilities don't compare.For example : Bolt Escape if casting within 4 seconds costs 50% more and Dragon Fire Scale don't have any debuff

Curse should be definatly changed from one active per target AND caster to only one active PER caster. that way multiple sorcs won´t neuter each others Dmg.

Shunravi

Nightreaver wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

I don't see a minimum range on those ranged abilities.

I don't see one on Bow abilities either and yet I've never seen anyone using a bow for melee.

Yes, but sorc skills don't have a passive that increases damage based on distance to target. Bow does.

Fayaburn

Shunravi wrote: »

Nightreaver wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

I don't see a minimum range on those ranged abilities.

I don't see one on Bow abilities either and yet I've never seen anyone using a bow for melee.

Yes, but sorc skills don't have a passive that increases damage based on distance to target. Bow does.

Trolling at a whole new level...

Shunravi

Fayaburn wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Nightreaver wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

I don't see a minimum range on those ranged abilities.

I don't see one on Bow abilities either and yet I've never seen anyone using a bow for melee.

Yes, but sorc skills don't have a passive that increases damage based on distance to target. Bow does.

Trolling at a whole new level...

Shunravi

Shunravi wrote: »

Fayaburn wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Nightreaver wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

I don't see a minimum range on those ranged abilities.

I don't see one on Bow abilities either and yet I've never seen anyone using a bow for melee.

Yes, but sorc skills don't have a passive that increases damage based on distance to target. Bow does.

Trolling at a whole new level...

In all seriousness though, everyone is so set on sorcs being casters, even though they have very few casting abilities. If sorc abilities did indeed scale with distance, I would be inclined to agree that it's intended for a ranged caster class. But this is not the case. The skills are effective at any range below max range. Heck, I would even argue that by using lightning form, it can be potentially easier to execute a target because disintegrate procs off of lightning damage. Which is something lightning form has a good many chances of.

Vahrokh

Shunravi wrote: »

In all seriousness though, everyone is so set on sorcs being casters, even though they have very few casting abilities.

We are so set because:

For TES fans, Oblivion wiki Sorcerer definition reads: "Besting the most well-equipped fighters, Sorcerers rely on the spells of the mystic arts".

For general MMO players: "Sorcerer" is traditionally THE caster. Who else is meant to be a magic caster in a game where the classes are called: Dragon Knights, Night blades, Templars (= "paladins")?

I play Mage / Sorcerer in many MMOs since before 2000, guess what: they are casters. I loved my Warhammer Sorceress so much, she was the incarnation of what a glass cannon should be.

... and now I have to read I am meant to play a:

- Warlock with stupidified pets vs a WoW Warlock.
- Ranger with Bow
- Dual wield rogue Sorcerer.

Anyone see something wrong?

Shunravi

Vahrokh wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

In all seriousness though, everyone is so set on sorcs being casters, even though they have very few casting abilities.

We are so set because:

For TES fans, Oblivion wiki Sorcerer definition reads: "Besting the most well-equipped fighters, Sorcerers rely on the spells of the mystic arts".

For general MMO players: "Sorcerer" is traditionally THE caster. Who else is meant to be a magic caster in a game where the classes are called: Dragon Knights, Night blades, Templars (= "paladins")?

I play Mage / Sorcerer in many MMOs since before 2000, guess what: they are casters. I loved my Warhammer Sorceress so much, she was the incarnation of what a glass cannon should be.

... and now I have to read I am meant to play a:

- Warlock with stupidified pets vs a WoW Warlock.
- Ranger with Bow
- Dual wield rogue Sorcerer.

Anyone see something wrong?

Yes, I do.

You forgot the rest of that description

Besting the most well-equipped fighters, Sorcerers rely on the spells of the mystic arts. Unique to these mages is the bodily stamina to be armed with the thickest armor. Sorcerers also possess the unique ability to absorb spell points from spells targeted at them, serving in essence as magical "batteries", and possess more spell points than any other mage class.

Sorcerers are adept at the use of a wide variety of weapons and armor, but typically do not utilize shields, preferring to keep their hands free for defensive spellcasting instead, their specialty.

And then there is the description from morrowind that clearly states they are summoners;

Though spellcasters by vocation, sorcerers rely most on summonings and enchantments. They are greedy for magic scrolls, rings, armor and weapons, and commanding undead and Daedric servants gratifies their egos.

I keep doing this thing where I say they shouldn't be caster, when that isn't my arguargument at all. I should really try to improve on that... If it didn't spark such good discussions.

I don't care what the name sorcerer means in other media. Given the chance I would have a good long talk with the guy who named and based them after the morrowind and oblivion version of sorcerers. In this game, they are very clearly based off the TES archetype, not the classic fantasy glass cannon the name indicates.

What should have helped to tip you off about casting not being exclusive to sorcerers is things like 'play the way you want' and 'any class can fill any role.'

I really wish people would take the time to actually do research instead of basing their perceptions entirely arround a name.