Ze blobbings vill continue...

Lowbei

hahaha

you think this is new? cyrodiil is a nearly exact copy of daocs rvr zone, down to the # of keeps and resources around them, supply lines, etc. and daoc also had massive 200+ player zergs running around taking keeps and that was in 2001.

your lack of comprehension on the topic of "skilled gameplay" vs "zerg" is a classic example of why we dont group people like you, because you simply couldnt cut it in the competitive scene, no offense.

i wouldnt be caught dead in a zerg, and make easily 5x more ap/hour, so i think itll be fine. you should stop worrying about my playstyle and get back to zerging

jnjapexb14_ESO

Lowbei wrote: »

my people dont care about scrolls or keeps, and see them only as tool to farm ap

Good, then please leave ESO and go to 1 of the 100's of eSport games that are available to you. We have heard enough of your whining. ESO PvP is ALLIANCE vs.: ALLIANCE. It is a WAR. It is UNFAIR. If you want care bear 4 v 4 sport meets go somewhere else.

Lowbei

jnjapexb14_ESO wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

my people dont care about scrolls or keeps, and see them only as tool to farm ap

Good, then please leave ESO and go to 1 of the 100's of eSport games that are available to you. We have heard enough of your whining. ESO PvP is ALLIANCE vs.: ALLIANCE. It is a WAR. It is UNFAIR. If you want care bear 4 v 4 sport meets go somewhere else.

lol you are so angry, relax, nobody is going anywhere.

we arent required to care about scrolls and keeps to rvr, get over it

4v4v4 arenas are coming (confirmed) to eso in 1.4 i think, jussayin.

nobody seems to be whining except you, you should calm down lol

SBR_QuorTek

And how would Arena's make PvP any better? I mean essentially it is not really PvP ( don't get me wrong on that, alot of you people do not really know what PvP is being clouded by WoW and other MMOs )

Lowbei

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

And how would Arena's make PvP any better? I mean essentially it is not really PvP ( don't get me wrong on that, alot of you people do not really know what PvP is being clouded by WoW and other MMOs )

you claimed that arenas arent pvp? you realize that pvp stands for Player VS Player right? lol

zergers are so funny

SBR_QuorTek

Lowbei wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

And how would Arena's make PvP any better? I mean essentially it is not really PvP ( don't get me wrong on that, alot of you people do not really know what PvP is being clouded by WoW and other MMOs )

you claimed that arenas arent pvp? you realize that pvp stands for Player VS Player right? lol

zergers are so funny

Yes, but put into a box... it doesn't really capture the massive world or incredible big map you can do it on... and trust me did arena alike content in another MMO 5 months straight out 3-5 hours a day every day... untill I realized the joke is on me.

And it really is, would had gotten much more joy out of playing an actual FPS game vs other players eg. battlefield genre.

As for zergs they will be dealt with eventually.

Xsorus

Thechemicals wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

i think the big disconnect here is that the skilled players want competition, thus want to inspire these awful zergers into having the ambition to make a smallman, thus creating more competition, which will grow exponentially when arenas are introduced.

what he means to say is, you arent hurting "the game" you are hurting "competitive pvp" by zerging, and i dont think anyone here would argue that pvp should be more competitive/skill based.

You came to a game that has an entire history/franchise of making roleplaying games with a huge storyline and lore *and with a huge playerbase that are fans of the rpg genre.....for mainly competitive skilled pvp play.....and to not involve yourself in the actual pvp mechanics the game advertised.

I think at this point,its time for you to move on or back...maybe take a time machine back to 2001 because your obsolete in evolved pvp.

if your pvp rank wasnt so low, id be able to take you more seriously lol

and i obviously know this games mechanics well since i farm zergs despite an ae cap. perhaps you should stop focusing on me, because you are coming across as "haters"

by the way, calling zerging "evolved pvp" is SO funny

Low blow about my rank....low blow.

I think maybe you should try to play the game the way eso intended it instead of the way daoc intended you to play...eso?

Yeah this sort of pvp is an evolution of the small pvp and smaller instances of pvp like wow battlegrounds. It was first offered by funcom in aoc but it didnt pan out because they couldnt support the large scale pvp. This venture for large scale pvp has been a vision for companies for about a decade now and eso is part of that dream. PvP will continue to evolve to a point where youll have games where its total war; thousands vs thousands of people online battling it out and your place in all of that will be in the bottle necks they will create in those wars to cater to you.

Youre missing out on the fun. Grab some scrolls and capture some keeps with 30+ people sometime...youll be surprised how organized it can be....or be a fossil.

It wasn't first offered by Funcom in AOC

Their "massive" PvP didn't come out till well after DAOC had already been released.

Also This game copied virtually everything about DAOC's PvP system like Lowbei stated.

Lowbei

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

And how would Arena's make PvP any better? I mean essentially it is not really PvP ( don't get me wrong on that, alot of you people do not really know what PvP is being clouded by WoW and other MMOs )

you claimed that arenas arent pvp? you realize that pvp stands for Player VS Player right? lol

zergers are so funny

Yes, but put into a box... it doesn't really capture the massive world or incredible big map you can do it on... and trust me did arena alike content in another MMO 5 months straight out 3-5 hours a day every day... untill I realized the joke is on me.

And it really is, would had gotten much more joy out of playing an actual FPS game vs other players eg. battlefield genre.

As for zergs they will be dealt with eventually.

you seem so confused

you think that arena players are missing out on the open world? LOL idonteven

arenas are where real skilled players go to compete and practice their skills.

i have about a decade of 8v8 experience, and find your 5 month arena stint to be cute. you obviously didnt do very well at it, no offense, so i completely understand you giving up to return to the zerg.

DAOC IRC 2005: "many zergers think they can hang and attempt competitive play, but most end up returning to the zerg. Props to those who have the ambition to become better players by sticking with it."

MonkeyAssassin24

Lowbei wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

And how would Arena's make PvP any better? I mean essentially it is not really PvP ( don't get me wrong on that, alot of you people do not really know what PvP is being clouded by WoW and other MMOs )

you claimed that arenas arent pvp? you realize that pvp stands for Player VS Player right? lol

zergers are so funny

Yes, but put into a box... it doesn't really capture the massive world or incredible big map you can do it on... and trust me did arena alike content in another MMO 5 months straight out 3-5 hours a day every day... untill I realized the joke is on me.

And it really is, would had gotten much more joy out of playing an actual FPS game vs other players eg. battlefield genre.

As for zergs they will be dealt with eventually.

you seem so confused

you think that arena players are missing out on the open world? LOL idonteven

arenas are where real skilled players go to compete and practice their skills.

i have about a decade of 8v8 experience, and find your 5 month arena stint to be cute. you obviously didnt do very well at it, no offense, so i completely understand you giving up to return to the zerg.

DAOC IRC 2005: "many zergers think they can hang and attempt competitive play, but most end up returning to the zerg. Props to those who have the ambition to become better players by sticking with it."

HA! Quote of the decade right there, thanks for that gem. Most arena type pvp I have ever seen involves teams trying to exploit the maps while using the best possible combinations, or whatever else the FOTM happens to be at the time. If you think you are in for high-adrenaline competitive pvp in arenas (which I actually have yet to find anything about that announcement) in this game...don't get your hopes up. For every one battle that gives you an actual competitive and entertaining encounter, prepare to slog through a dozen that will require you to defend against the exploits of your opponent. You will not find much honor here, not in the new age of competitive arena pvp.

Xsorus

MonkeyAssassin24 wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

And how would Arena's make PvP any better? I mean essentially it is not really PvP ( don't get me wrong on that, alot of you people do not really know what PvP is being clouded by WoW and other MMOs )

you claimed that arenas arent pvp? you realize that pvp stands for Player VS Player right? lol

zergers are so funny

Yes, but put into a box... it doesn't really capture the massive world or incredible big map you can do it on... and trust me did arena alike content in another MMO 5 months straight out 3-5 hours a day every day... untill I realized the joke is on me.

And it really is, would had gotten much more joy out of playing an actual FPS game vs other players eg. battlefield genre.

As for zergs they will be dealt with eventually.

you seem so confused

you think that arena players are missing out on the open world? LOL idonteven

arenas are where real skilled players go to compete and practice their skills.

i have about a decade of 8v8 experience, and find your 5 month arena stint to be cute. you obviously didnt do very well at it, no offense, so i completely understand you giving up to return to the zerg.

DAOC IRC 2005: "many zergers think they can hang and attempt competitive play, but most end up returning to the zerg. Props to those who have the ambition to become better players by sticking with it."

HA! Quote of the decade right there, thanks for that gem. Most arena type pvp I have ever seen involves teams trying to exploit the maps while using the best possible combinations, or whatever else the FOTM happens to be at the time. If you think you are in for high-adrenaline competitive pvp in arenas (which I actually have yet to find anything about that announcement) in this game...don't get your hopes up. For every one battle that gives you an actual competitive and entertaining encounter, prepare to slog through a dozen that will require you to defend against the exploits of your opponent. You will not find much honor here, not in the new age of competitive arena pvp.

I'm personally not a fan of Arena combat, but I don't see how what you said wouldn't apply to pretty much any other group you meet in Cyrodiil

Lowbei

depends what you consider an "arena"

i considered agramon to be an "arena" despite its open world location. not that you couldnt get adds there, but its where the best chance for an 8v8 happened.

SBR_QuorTek

Lowbei wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

And how would Arena's make PvP any better? I mean essentially it is not really PvP ( don't get me wrong on that, alot of you people do not really know what PvP is being clouded by WoW and other MMOs )

you claimed that arenas arent pvp? you realize that pvp stands for Player VS Player right? lol

zergers are so funny

Yes, but put into a box... it doesn't really capture the massive world or incredible big map you can do it on... and trust me did arena alike content in another MMO 5 months straight out 3-5 hours a day every day... untill I realized the joke is on me.

And it really is, would had gotten much more joy out of playing an actual FPS game vs other players eg. battlefield genre.

As for zergs they will be dealt with eventually.

you seem so confused

you think that arena players are missing out on the open world? LOL idonteven

arenas are where real skilled players go to compete and practice their skills.

i have about a decade of 8v8 experience, and find your 5 month arena stint to be cute. you you obviously didnt do very well at it, no offense, so i completely understand you giving up to return to the zerg.

DAOC IRC 2005: "many zergers think they can hang and attempt competitive play, but always end up returning to the zerg."

Arena:
Top Damage, max kills, max objective points - Usual route for when was heavy engaged in it, ran premade groups mainly, when solo with pugs, usually always had topscore for own team, but one man cannot win it all alone if the rest of the group is not up for it, if you target something you would hit that person by pressing a button having your back turned, don't tell me that it take actual full skill to play arena alike in an MMO.

The Real Arena Games or the somewhat alike:
For team vs team alike games, had the grand kick out a bunch of games dating all the way back to the first FPS games featureing that option, such as Counterstrike, when it was cool that is, Rainbow SIX series, battlefield alike games and many more, so do not come to me and talk about skill in those situations, when aim, strategy, tactics and speed play a more vital role in those games.

Openworld MMO:
I don't think that Open World people would be running off doing Arenas only either, several years of openworld alike PvP experience here... and one of the games was EvE Online where death actually wield consequenses, also in openworld you don't know when you can be ambushed of if the enemy has rallied up more friends either, meaning you can get unexpected attention and having to stretch it by either ending dying really fast... or sneaky enough getting away with still winning the day one way or another or getting away.

Zerg huh?:
Honestly not much of a zerg person here either, it is fun from time to time for something different, but more interested in the tactical aspect of taking objectives and that way turning the battle into my advantage or stirring up a battle, never touched a game like gw2 as felt it was uninspireing.

Eventually zergs will be dealt with as it is by deux ex magina ( The devs )

For the joke is on me comment:
Litterally got soo friggen bored by it to a degree no one would really understand, and honestly not from losing, was winning way more than losing battles meaning it personally to from that time to now is going under LoL-PvP?

Xsorus

Lowbei wrote: »

depends what you consider an "arena"

i considered agramon to be an "arena" despite its open world location. not that you couldnt get adds there, but its where the best chance for an 8v8 happened.

i don't consider Agramon to be an arena, cause then pretty much every area in DAOC would be an arena since you pretty much had the same possibility of adds.

Bramir

Krinaman wrote: »

Bramir wrote: »

The answer to not getting destroyed by uncapped aoes is not move out of the way...it is spread out a little so the aoes only hit a few people at a time instead of the entire group.

So spread out while you stand on the flag....

There are numerous superior tactical positions within a keep or fortress than the middle of an open area...

Maybe try to fight the enemy rather than doing battle with flags?

Lowbei

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

And how would Arena's make PvP any better? I mean essentially it is not really PvP ( don't get me wrong on that, alot of you people do not really know what PvP is being clouded by WoW and other MMOs )

you claimed that arenas arent pvp? you realize that pvp stands for Player VS Player right? lol

zergers are so funny

Yes, but put into a box... it doesn't really capture the massive world or incredible big map you can do it on... and trust me did arena alike content in another MMO 5 months straight out 3-5 hours a day every day... untill I realized the joke is on me.

And it really is, would had gotten much more joy out of playing an actual FPS game vs other players eg. battlefield genre.

As for zergs they will be dealt with eventually.

you seem so confused

you think that arena players are missing out on the open world? LOL idonteven

arenas are where real skilled players go to compete and practice their skills.

i have about a decade of 8v8 experience, and find your 5 month arena stint to be cute. you you obviously didnt do very well at it, no offense, so i completely understand you giving up to return to the zerg.

DAOC IRC 2005: "many zergers think they can hang and attempt competitive play, but always end up returning to the zerg."

Arena:
Top Damage, max kills, max objective points - Usual route for when was heavy engaged in it, ran premade groups mainly, when solo with pugs, usually always had topscore for own team, but one man cannot win it all alone if the rest of the group is not up for it, if you target something you would hit that person by pressing a button having your back turned, don't tell me that it take actual full skill to play arena alike in an MMO.

The Real Arena Games or the somewhat alike:
For team vs team alike games, had the grand kick out a bunch of games dating all the way back to the first FPS games featureing that option, such as Counterstrike, when it was cool that is, Rainbow SIX series, battlefield alike games and many more, so do not come to me and talk about skill in those situations, when aim, strategy, tactics and speed play a more vital role in those games.

Openworld MMO:
I don't think that Open World people would be running off doing Arenas only either, several years of openworld alike PvP experience here... and one of the games was EvE Online where death actually wield consequenses, also in openworld you don't know when you can be ambushed of if the enemy has rallied up more friends either, meaning you can get unexpected attention and having to stretch it by either ending dying really fast... or sneaky enough getting away with still winning the day one way or another or getting away.

Zerg huh?:
Honestly not much of a zerg person here either, it is fun from time to time for something different, but more interested in the tactical aspect of taking objectives and that way turning the battle into my advantage or stirring up a battle, never touched a game like gw2 as felt it was uninspireing.

Eventually zergs will be dealt with as it is by deux ex magina ( The devs )

For the joke is on me comment:
Litterally got soo friggen bored by it to a degree no one would really understand, and honestly not from losing, was winning way more than losing battles meaning it personally to from that time to now is going under LoL-PvP?

... ok, so you got defensive and went on a rant detailing the games you played, yet somehow failed to mention the name of the game the arena was in lol

also im not sure what you mean by "dont come at me and talk about skill" in fps, despite nobody talking about fps on here but you. tho fyi, i was competing in the OG Quake tournaments like the Red Annihilation tourny in 1997. and no, i didnt win, i was beaten by Thresh of Impulse9, who won John Carmack's 1987 Ferrari 328 GTS cabriolet. It was at this moment that i turned to mmos.

i find very little competition in cyrodiil and look forward to arenas for the simple fact that they will cause the formation of many new smallmans which may eventually be competition, whether in arenas or cyrodiil.

SBR_QuorTek

Just don't use the term of calling MMO PvP for E-Sport and I will be happy, unless it is specific designed for it.. eg. 'MMO-PVP-FPS'

First time I played Quake vs others I got my ass handed to me for days, some of my friends made fun of me too (they had played it for longer)... but then... started to learn and cordinate.... and started to railshot people in the air... all up close and more, never got into the actual cash play for FPS games though but probably could had ended up there, but valued school and the future a little bit more at the point ^_^.

As for different MMO's with Arena alike content in, well dabbled quite a bit in SWTOR with the warzone thing (same thing as arenas) the little time Ilum was working made battles quite a bit interesting though for open world that is, later on some open world intended events was held, and shame to say those people who only knew how to play on the same map, doing that objective over and over again pretty much had to bend over and take it.

Take another MMO, swap the skin.. call it a complete different MMO is how they roll now a day with those new MMOs popping up everywhere. -_-

Xsorus

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

Just don't use the term of calling MMO PvP for E-Sport and I will be happy, unless it is specific designed for it.. eg. 'MMO-PVP-FPS'

First time I played Quake vs others I got my ass handed to me for days, some of my friends made fun of me too (they had played it for longer)... but then... started to learn and cordinate.... and started to railshot people in the air... all up close and more, never got into the actual cash play for FPS games though but probably could had ended up there, but valued school and the future a little bit more at the point ^_^.

As for different MMO's with Arena alike content in, well dabbled quite a bit in SWTOR with the warzone thing (same thing as arenas) the little time Ilum was working made battles quite a bit interesting though for open world that is, later on some open world intended events was held, and shame to say those people who only knew how to play on the same map, doing that objective over and over again pretty much had to bend over and take it.

Take another MMO, swap the skin.. call it a complete different MMO is how they roll now a day with those new MMOs popping up everywhere. -_-

only good warzone in SWTOR was huttball, all the rest are ***.

Pretty much every Warzone that's involved camping a point has been complete crap as you have to basically sit there with no action with your thumb up your butt (Civil War in SWTOR for example)

as for Arena's themselves, SWTOR ended up actually adding actual arena's the game, 4v4 Death match ones...which are actually really nice.

SBR_QuorTek

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

SBR_QuorTek wrote: »

Just don't use the term of calling MMO PvP for E-Sport and I will be happy, unless it is specific designed for it.. eg. 'MMO-PVP-FPS'

First time I played Quake vs others I got my ass handed to me for days, some of my friends made fun of me too (they had played it for longer)... but then... started to learn and cordinate.... and started to railshot people in the air... all up close and more, never got into the actual cash play for FPS games though but probably could had ended up there, but valued school and the future a little bit more at the point ^_^.

As for different MMO's with Arena alike content in, well dabbled quite a bit in SWTOR with the warzone thing (same thing as arenas) the little time Ilum was working made battles quite a bit interesting though for open world that is, later on some open world intended events was held, and shame to say those people who only knew how to play on the same map, doing that objective over and over again pretty much had to bend over and take it.

Take another MMO, swap the skin.. call it a complete different MMO is how they roll now a day with those new MMOs popping up everywhere. -_-

only good warzone in SWTOR was huttball, all the rest are ***.

Pretty much every Warzone that's involved camping a point has been complete crap as you have to basically sit there with no action with your thumb up your butt (Civil War in SWTOR for example)

as for Arena's themselves, SWTOR ended up actually adding actual arena's the game, 4v4 Death match ones...which are actually really nice.

I know.. same old same old... I miss huttball though, if solely could chose a mode would go for huttball even today, more for the game huttball really is lol... as funny as it might sound.

Guess because it involved an actual game.. scoring points on each side and the likes being able to actually toss the ball to a player or it getting intercepted, if solely could pick that WZ only in ToR... would make a team and play ball as silly as it may sound... lol

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

Okay, I skimmed through the thread, and it is amazing that there are so many wide spread misconceptions still held as truth by people.
We shouldn't need to discuss this again.

1. This discussion is not about zerging.
I know the terms are similar, but "blobbing" is a tactic used by any size of groups. It corresponds to exploiting the target cap by stacking group members to the point of clipping into each other to mitigate damage.
It starts at target cap +1, and becomes more and more viable with scale.

2. The issue is not how to, nor if it is possible, to deal with blobs.
It is possible to beat them, they are not invulnerable, but that's besides the point.
This tactic is what is called a "dominant strategy" in game/decision theory.
It is so clearly superior to any other tactic that it makes the rest of the playfield sub-optimal and non viable in comparison.
No need to go once again over the maths, but in short, the aoe cap removes all usual drawbacks to stacking a large group and adds an additional passive advantage on top.
Caps need to go for a healthier and more varied ecosystem of tactics and strategies.

3. Removing the AoE cap does not make large groups strongers.
A larger group will always one shot a smaller group, and so they should. After all, they are commiting more players of their campaign cap at this location.
But removing AoE caps mean they are just as vulnerable, if not more due to risking more troops.

4. Blobing is not the only reason to need the target cap gone.
There are many reasons why in a competitive video game, you want to remove un-manageable random chances. Especially in eso, ground targeted aoes are the only thing we actually have to aim for, skill should be rewarded.
And in ESO, one of the fundamentals is immersion, and a supernova not damaging everything in its path is breaking suspension of disbelief for no good reasons

5. There are many ways to balance aoe other than arbitrary target caps:
All of which are adding interesting split decision making and reward linearly rather than binary. Here's a collection of them:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/121403/suggestion-ways-to-balance-aoe-abilities-without-an-arbitrary-target-cap

6. Removing target caps will improve performances.
As of now, it is safe to assume aoes have knowledge of all possible targets and then pick at random or with a preference in that list. It means there is an overhead at the sorting and determination of targets. This is heavier than doing atomic calculations over all targets, process that can be paralelized.
Also, not having a target cap will remove the incentive to stack, reducing the amount of potential targets and aoe spamming.
It is lighter on performances both technicaly and design wise.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

Thechemicals wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

i think the big disconnect here is that the skilled players want competition, thus want to inspire these awful zergers into having the ambition to make a smallman, thus creating more competition, which will grow exponentially when arenas are introduced.

what he means to say is, you arent hurting "the game" you are hurting "competitive pvp" by zerging, and i dont think anyone here would argue that pvp should be more competitive/skill based.

You came to a game that has an entire history/franchise of making roleplaying games with a huge storyline and lore *and with a huge playerbase that are fans of the rpg genre.....for mainly competitive skilled pvp play.....and to not involve yourself in the actual pvp mechanics the game advertised.

I think at this point,its time for you to move on or back...maybe take a time machine back to 2001 because your obsolete in evolved pvp.

if your pvp rank wasnt so low, id be able to take you more seriously lol

and i obviously know this games mechanics well since i farm zergs despite an ae cap. perhaps you should stop focusing on me, because you are coming across as "haters"

by the way, calling zerging "evolved pvp" is SO funny

Low blow about my rank....low blow.

I think maybe you should try to play the game the way eso intended it instead of the way daoc intended you to play...eso?

Yeah this sort of pvp is an evolution of the small pvp and smaller instances of pvp like wow battlegrounds. It was first offered by funcom in aoc but it didnt pan out because they couldnt support the large scale pvp. This venture for large scale pvp has been a vision for companies for about a decade now and eso is part of that dream. PvP will continue to evolve to a point where youll have games where its total war; thousands vs thousands of people online battling it out and your place in all of that will be in the bottle necks they will create in those wars to cater to you.

Youre missing out on the fun. Grab some scrolls and capture some keeps with 30+ people sometime...youll be surprised how organized it can be....or be a fossil.

This is an ad hominem. I agree that pvp rank is a low blow, a high/low rank doesn't preclude from being right/wrong.

However on the rest, I can't help but marking your post as "lol".

It is a self admited and even advertised design decision to base AvA on DAOC's RvR. It is a valid asumptions for the customers to expect at the very least that some of the fundamental mechanics have been respected and that mistakes done in games since then would be avoided.
Target caps, while being a bad design in theory, have also been proven as destructive in other games. Most recently, and very notably, in gw2 where it is the number one reason why its WvWvW has been shuned by players.
ESO stayed vague on the subject of caps, even after direct questions about them, and it sort of collected the disenfranchised of RvR style PvP.
It will need to be fixed before Camelot Unchained gets out as AvA will most likely die then if it isn't.

As a second note, evolution as a word doesn't attach any meaning of value (positive or negative evolution still is evolution) and in this case, you need to learn your history.
RvR predates any kind of small scale instanced PvP, even DAOC wasn't the first one to implement it, but it was the most successful. Worthy of being copied.
There were other games like hellbreath doing faction wars, and many open world PvP titles (UO, AC, EQ, hell, all of them)
AOC itself was lowering the bar with its instanced 3 cities zones with guild based wars rather than faction based and at the time was a surprise that they couldn't manage it. It was an expected fact that 40v40 should work since larger had been done before.
And at guild vs guild, many other open world games predated it, like shadowbane for instance, which had unique non instanced holdings.
Even after AOC, there were Mortal and Darkfall, both of which made by little teams but with scales similar to ESO and player colision and projectile physics.
If hobbyist could manage it, Zos should too.

Where I'm getting at is that open world massive PvP is not a dream. it is the roots. What ESO tries to accomplish is rediscovering the secret of the ancients by using a member of the long lost race of DAOC devs.
Clearly, cryogenics isn't harmless, or we wouldn't have seen a target cap implemented.

There are less technical limitations than 15 years ago, when daoc started being developed, and the only dificulty to make it work are design wise.

Krinaman

Bramir wrote: »

There are numerous superior tactical positions within a keep or fortress than the middle of an open area...

Maybe try to fight the enemy rather than doing battle with flags?

Taking any objective in this game requires standing on the flag. If defenders can simply rain uncapped AOEs on said flag you will never take it. And before you say attack the defenders first that means coming into a choke point as well.

What will happen is AOEs will be the only viable choice in the game if you care about objectives at all and the class/build with the most powerful AOE(s) will dominate. Especially ranged AOEs.

Lowbei

Krinaman wrote: »

Bramir wrote: »

There are numerous superior tactical positions within a keep or fortress than the middle of an open area...

Maybe try to fight the enemy rather than doing battle with flags?

Taking any objective in this game requires standing on the flag. If defenders can simply rain uncapped AOEs on said flag you will never take it. And before you say attack the defenders first that means coming into a choke point as well.

What will happen is AOEs will be the only viable choice in the game if you care about objectives at all and the class/build with the most powerful AOE(s) will dominate. Especially ranged AOEs.

lol please name some of these powerful ranged aoes for us.

Harnesh

Krinaman wrote: »

Bramir wrote: »

There are numerous superior tactical positions within a keep or fortress than the middle of an open area...

Maybe try to fight the enemy rather than doing battle with flags?

Taking any objective in this game requires standing on the flag. If defenders can simply rain uncapped AOEs on said flag you will never take it. And before you say attack the defenders first that means coming into a choke point as well.

What will happen is AOEs will be the only viable choice in the game if you care about objectives at all and the class/build with the most powerful AOE(s) will dominate. Especially ranged AOEs.

As far as I know oil has no numbers cap it is almost always being poured on flags and what not, so you already have to deal with uncapped aoe at choke points.
I think there are a lot of misconceptions about uncapped aoe all it really changes is people clumping up and your forced to have a little more situational awareness. Diminishing returns from the center of the aoe worked well in DAoC.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

Krinaman wrote: »

Bramir wrote: »

There are numerous superior tactical positions within a keep or fortress than the middle of an open area...

Maybe try to fight the enemy rather than doing battle with flags?

Taking any objective in this game requires standing on the flag. If defenders can simply rain uncapped AOEs on said flag you will never take it. And before you say attack the defenders first that means coming into a choke point as well.

What will happen is AOEs will be the only viable choice in the game if you care about objectives at all and the class/build with the most powerful AOE(s) will dominate. Especially ranged AOEs.

Or perhaps you need to win the battle before receiving victory?
pvp is a game of attrition, especially since defenders cannot respawn while attackers can. Each death matters either by costing resources (FC/soulgems) or time out of the fight.
Most of the defenses/attacks I've seen, when the last walls are breached and the flags is in sight, there are barely any defenders left. Only an organized force stays alive withing the last room of a keep.
And this is how it should be, that's what keeps are built for. We actually need less volatility for keeps and front lines.

What happens NOW is that the only viable builds are AOE based. Since everyone should stay always as a stack, it's better to hit 6 always guaranteed targets than only one.
When caps are removed and stacking is no longer necessary, single target abilities will gain a newfound increase in viability.
Of course, AoE's will keep their niche as opportunistic high cost tools and situationaly at chokepoints. But most of the normal play takes place outside of these situations.
Especially with longer and more dangerous fights, there will be more troop movements in the open.

Harnesh

This is just my take on it and carries no great weight but idealy what happens is you have more unique play styles. If you have uncapped AoE then the safety gained from running in a tight blob will be lost and people will run smaller AoE bomb groups but where as the 20 man "blob" couldn't be taken down by a group that single target focus fires a four man bomb group can.

It was always fun to watch the changes to DAoC groups as people came up with different tactics. Have the Mid melee trains, the Hib caster groups, the albs errrr not sure what the Albs did the seemed to be focused more on their sheep but that's a different story. Point being I think uncapped AoE would open up a lot of game play.

Lowbei

Frosth obviously specs Long Wind 5, but i agree with most everything he says

Durham

This is a issue that im sure ZOS will address in some way since so many people have concerns...

Lowbei

they are currently having internal discussions on the topic and are likely to remove them by 1.4

Columba

Lol, if you love arena based combat why are you here? TF2, GW2, Aion all are arena focused. I love people who come to a new game and demand the designers change the game design to meet their pet peeves.

Lowbei

lol 4v4v4 arenas have already been confirmed

stop whining