Ze blobbings vill continue...

Xsorus

Adonikam wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

Adonikam wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

daoc had no ae caps. its aes were balanced by a simple radius falloff calculation that caused zero lag. i have been bombing zergs 8v100+ for like a decade, and i have never seen a server crash from a bomb.

by the way, daocs rvr zone is the place that cyrodiil is copied from, almost exactly

by the way, as far as processing cycles go, this calculation is literally nothing. it wasnt enough to cause lag in 2001, and its not enough now in 2014.

In DAOC casters had an entirely different mechanic. If you were hit by anything while you casting it would interrupt you. It also had a weird delay you had to time right in order to cast again or you would trick yourself into fail casting. You could always throw the one quick cast in if you wanted but you couldn't just stand and cast non stop while someone was hitting you.

You cannot compare the two games since their mechanics were entirely different.

again, cyrodiil is clearly a copy of daocs rvr zone (new frontiers) and mechanics are a nonfactor if they are spread across the board to all, like they are. in fact eso has no real cc so theres even LESS excuse to get caught in a bomb

I didn't say anything about Cyrodiil and I didn't mention anything about CC. You did play DAOC right? You do remember that you couldn't cast a spell if you were hit? So the casting mechanics of ESO and DAOC are way different.

Ummm...Do you remember DAOC?

Cause every Caster in that game that was going to PBAE bomb ran MoC, you know that RA that let ya cast for 15 seconds and not be interrupted?

Rylana

You do realize that removing the AOE cap would actually make these groups even more powerful right?

Or maybe thats your real motive....

Let me put it to you like this. Due to the cap, if a zerg of 30 runs over you, you might get hit by say 10 of their AOEs overlapping you, etc, depending on how many of you there are. Less than six, youre just plain screwed no matter what.

Remove the cap and you get hit by ALL THIRTY no matter how many people you have.

Xsorus

Rylana wrote: »

You do realize that removing the AOE cap would actually make these groups even more powerful right?

Or maybe thats your real motive....

It actually wouldn't.

Unless you're specifically stacking more then 6 people in a given area, They're going to hit you pretty much the same as they always have.

However since they can now be hit by virtually everyone, Even just 2 or 3 people coming in from the side and bombing half of them would be a problem.

So no...Zergballing would be vastly weaker then before.

Rylana

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

You do realize that removing the AOE cap would actually make these groups even more powerful right?

Or maybe thats your real motive....

It actually wouldn't.

Unless you're specifically stacking more then 6 people in a given area, They're going to hit you pretty much the same as they always have.

However since they can now be hit by virtually everyone, Even just 2 or 3 people coming in from the side and bombing half of them would be a problem.

So no...Zergballing would be vastly weaker then before.

You expect to run two or three people into a stack of 30 and accomplish anything other than being instantly vaporized?

Thats a joke right?

You forget that heals have never had a cap, theyd heal through you with healing springs just the same as they always have.

Now if heals obeyed the same rules, you MIGHT be on to something, but they do not.

Columba

if you can't handle blobs, lol. The maps are huge, and blobs are trivially simple to avoid.

Columba

Thechemicals wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

yeah... and what does that have to do with the discussion at hand? we were talking about server processing damage calculations and its effect on server lag, and you want to discuss daoc interrupt mechanics? lol k

So this discussion isn't about blobs (as in zergs/massive player groups?) continuing until ae(area effect) caps are removed? That's 2 threads involving you that are getting pretty pointless.

This is how people in eso community with some skill in creating threads do it...same topic better understanding.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/122609/the-horrible-aoe-cap-are-they-even-listening-o/p1

L2write bro, your threads are a hot mess.

lowbei fancies himself as a moderator. it's cute.

Lowbei

less BH plz lol

Xsorus

Rylana wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

You do realize that removing the AOE cap would actually make these groups even more powerful right?

Or maybe thats your real motive....

It actually wouldn't.

Unless you're specifically stacking more then 6 people in a given area, They're going to hit you pretty much the same as they always have.

However since they can now be hit by virtually everyone, Even just 2 or 3 people coming in from the side and bombing half of them would be a problem.

So no...Zergballing would be vastly weaker then before.

You expect to run two or three people into a stack of 30 and accomplish anything other than being instantly vaporized?

Thats a joke right?

You forget that heals have never had a cap, theyd heal through you with healing springs just the same as they always have.

Now if heals obeyed the same rules, you MIGHT be on to something, but they do not.

Having 2 or 3 people running into just a small portion of the stack would actually cause a lot of Havoc... Just imagine having Sorcs Negate thrown on top of the ball, Now imagine it thrown on it on multiple areas and you'd see the problem these groups would have if things like that had an effect on all of them instead of just 6

Also Heals have a cap, i don't know why you don't think they do.

synnerman

I have seen several people on this thread and others keep saying "Move out of the way".... What happens when that "way" is a breach in a keep or a scroll at the temple or a flag at a keep????
Do we move out of the way then??? Think what you're saying . This is an AoE caps issue simple as that.

I for one will be just like the guy earlier who said he will be gone if its not sorted.

eliisra

Rylana wrote: »

You forget that heals have never had a cap, theyd heal through you with healing springs just the same as they always have.

Now if heals obeyed the same rules, you MIGHT be on to something, but they do not.

Normal heals also have a cap of 6, including Healing Springs. But than again you can spam that skill indefinitely.

Only Alliance War Support/Assault have more targets. Barrier effects 20 people for example. Purge and Rapid Manoeuvre doesn't have any caps. That's of course highly messed up, since all blobs are embedded in at least x2 Barriers and than a purge spammer in the back. Those skills definitely needs to be capped like AoE.

Than again, PvE'ers running trials would probably nerdrage if that happened. They would need 2 players using support skills and loose 30 seconds on the leader-board

Thechemicals

Homm wrote: »

Removing AOE caps will achieve nothing. In fact, it will make rapetrains even stronger. It will be beautiful to crush a random zerg in 3 seconds with a strong group and not be in danger (no AOE cap - AOE heal op in organised group).

Face it, in a game where so many people are on one map, you will get zergs. Always. Also, nobody is forcing you to play, and nobody cares (even ZOS, looking how they ignore all the bugs and problems this patch has done).

I agree. Removal of ae caps just makes for smaller groups doing the same thing... And since youll find more randoms and casual players before you find strong organized groups, it would be easy for say- a small gank group to farm ap all day on these weaker opponents.

Its a cry from the dark to remove ae caps, and its coming from the worst kind of pvp players, the whiney small group gankers who grief and contribute nothing in a community except promoting its downfall.

JamilaRaj

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

You do realize that removing the AOE cap would actually make these groups even more powerful right?

Or maybe thats your real motive....

It actually wouldn't.

Unless you're specifically stacking more then 6 people in a given area, They're going to hit you pretty much the same as they always have.

However since they can now be hit by virtually everyone, Even just 2 or 3 people coming in from the side and bombing half of them would be a problem.

So no...Zergballing would be vastly weaker then before.

It would not be vastly weaker. Only benefit for the skirmishers (with AoE cap removed) would be the fact they would not be hitting random/different set of six each time they fire their AoEs. This is however insignificant, as even if they hit same six or all of them, they still would not outdamage zergball's healers (and outlast damage from the hitmen) and die a pointless death.

And frankly, in given scenario, this is not even something to be considered harmful. 2-3 skirmishers from the flank should be able, at best, take out one or two zerglings with focused single target attacks, certainly not somehow kill, say, 10 out of 20 spamming exactly same AoE skills as that 20 over and over.

Replacing cap with multiple caps, i.e. capping heals more stringently than damage, and damage still more than CC, would yield better results. If it was to be left on capping alone, because probably even better would be making AoE skills mostly non-stackable DoT/HoTs.

Krinaman

synnerman wrote: »

I have seen several people on this thread and others keep saying "Move out of the way".... What happens when that "way" is a breach in a keep or a scroll at the temple or a flag at a keep????
Do we move out of the way then??? Think what you're saying . This is an AoE caps issue simple as that.

I for one will be just like the guy earlier who said he will be gone if its not sorted.

And when people are running around destroying large groups in keeps with uncapped AOEs the answer from no-cap crowd will be "move out of the way". No-caps creates more problems than it solves

We already have no caps on siege and it allows a small force to hold a keep against much larger numbers. Meanwhile the only effective way to beat oil is to stack up and charge in as a group.

Bramir

Krinaman wrote: »

synnerman wrote: »

I have seen several people on this thread and others keep saying "Move out of the way".... What happens when that "way" is a breach in a keep or a scroll at the temple or a flag at a keep????
Do we move out of the way then??? Think what you're saying . This is an AoE caps issue simple as that.

I for one will be just like the guy earlier who said he will be gone if its not sorted.

And when people are running around destroying large groups in keeps with uncapped AOEs the answer from no-cap crowd will be "move out of the way". No-caps creates more problems than it solves

We already have no caps on siege and it allows a small force to hold a keep against much larger numbers. Meanwhile the only effective way to beat oil is to stack up and charge in as a group.

The only thing you need to beat oil is people with purge who are paying attention. You can even stand in constant oil drops and spam purge as long as someone is healing you, and you won't die until the next lag spike. I even do the purging and healing against oil traps sometimes with some furious button mashing...until the next lag spike...

The answer to not getting destroyed by uncapped aoes is not move out of the way...it is spread out a little so the aoes only hit a few people at a time instead of the entire group.

krim

next time i charge into a big siege group.

http://youtu.be/8iOpUdsMeqM

Maulkin

Lowbei wrote: »

two, again (i have to repeat myself too much on here, read plz) i do what i do to inspire smallmans to break away from the zerg and become better players, and thus competition, which is what we seek.

if you were here for competition and had any idea the total number of zergers who have broke away from the zerg to form their own smallman, you would be thanking me for creating competition.

Look, I enjoy playing in small man groups too. In fact I love it. It's a bit tricky to get a good small man group with a balance of classes and player abilities so that you can actually take on and wipe bigger groups. When you do however, it's an extremely satisfying way of playing.

Also, I'm actually fully behind the idea of removing AoE caps (if that is technically possible for ZOS to do). A group of 24 average players should not be able to hide behind AoE caps to wipe smaller groups of superior skill to them.

However, I'll repeat again and again, big group does not mean mean bad group. The are good/average/bad players and similarity there are good/average/bad groups. While removing AoE caps will make this game more of challenge for the good groups, they will still be able to dictate the battlefield like before. Bad groups will suffer, no sympathy there.

Also like I said, the game (besides the AoE cap) is actively encouraging big groups. I challenge any smallman (4-6) group to go to a pop-locked campaign, take the two keeps required to open the gate, take a temple scroll, bring it home and make a video to prove it. I believe it's not possible. It takes 2 full raids (48) for us to even dare to attempt such a thing and we still rely on many more pugs for help.

What I'm saying is the game requires large coordinated armies for this AvAvA thing to work as ZOS intend it. With keep sieges and scroll runs and all. And I for my part love that too. I love seeing the alliance score and seeing my alliance is on top or has emperor more than I enjoy looking at my position in the ranking or my kill-to-death ratios and such. I don't care for the latter at all.

Lowbei

my people dont care about scrolls or keeps, and see them only as tool to farm ap

Rune_Relic

Lowbei wrote: »

dmg calculations arent enough to cause lag, not even close. its simple math, on a machine meant to handle millions of calculations per second.

and it wasnt a limited players thing, as again, we are talking about 8v100s

google daoc zerg bombing and have a look

So you mean DAoC still had Zergs ? /endthread

Lowbei

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

dmg calculations arent enough to cause lag, not even close. its simple math, on a machine meant to handle millions of calculations per second.

and it wasnt a limited players thing, as again, we are talking about 8v100s

google daoc zerg bombing and have a look

So you mean DAoC still had Zergs ? /endthread

lol you fail.

this thread isnt about "zergs", genius, the point being made is that daoc had blobbing due to /stick, but it wasnt an issue because bomb groups could easily wipe them. this resulted in skilled players breaking away from the zerg, creating quality pvp which is what the game is known for... which is why they tried to copy daocs rvr system here.

when the ae caps are removed, the quality of pvp will increase

Rune_Relic

OK ..are you then saying.
DAoC game mechanics = ESO game mechanics.
..because unless they are 'identical ', the outcome will not be the same and is an unknown.

ESO make many changes to 'balance', all of which have had serious knock on consequences that were 'unforeseen' by 'experts'.

Personally I favour area aoe damage x range x area = damage.
Hence large damage, medium range, small area or
small damage, small area, long range.
Whatever gives you the same net damage / m2 / m

There is hence still an AOE cap.... but the kind of AOE is flexible.

Lowbei

Rune_Relic wrote: »

OK ..are you then saying.
DAoC game mechanics = ESO game mechanics.
..because unless they are 'identical ', the outcome will not be the same and is an unknown.

ESO make many changes to 'balance', all of which have had serious knock on consequences that were 'unforeseen' by 'experts'.

Personally I favour area aoe damage x range x area = damage.
Hence large damage, medium range, small area or
small damage, small area, long range.
Whatever gives you the same net damage / m2 / m

There is hence still an AOE cap.... but the kind of AOE is flexible.

lol the outcome isnt "unknown" and the result of blobbing from ae caps was detailed before release, on this very forum, by me and many others.

Thechemicals

Lowbei wrote: »

i think the big disconnect here is that the skilled players want competition, thus want to inspire these awful zergers into having the ambition to make a smallman, thus creating more competition, which will grow exponentially when arenas are introduced.

what he means to say is, you arent hurting "the game" you are hurting "competitive pvp" by zerging, and i dont think anyone here would argue that pvp should be more competitive/skill based.

You came to a game that has an entire history/franchise of making roleplaying games with a huge storyline and lore *and with a huge playerbase that are fans of the rpg genre.....for mainly competitive skilled pvp play.....and to not involve yourself in the actual pvp mechanics the game advertised.

I think at this point,its time for you to move on or back...maybe take a time machine back to 2001 because your obsolete in evolved pvp.

Krinaman

Bramir wrote: »

The answer to not getting destroyed by uncapped aoes is not move out of the way...it is spread out a little so the aoes only hit a few people at a time instead of the entire group.

So spread out while you stand on the flag....

Lowbei

Thechemicals wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

i think the big disconnect here is that the skilled players want competition, thus want to inspire these awful zergers into having the ambition to make a smallman, thus creating more competition, which will grow exponentially when arenas are introduced.

what he means to say is, you arent hurting "the game" you are hurting "competitive pvp" by zerging, and i dont think anyone here would argue that pvp should be more competitive/skill based.

You came to a game that has an entire history/franchise of making roleplaying games with a huge storyline and lore *and with a huge playerbase that are fans of the rpg genre.....for mainly competitive skilled pvp play.....and to not involve yourself in the actual pvp mechanics the game advertised.

I think at this point,its time for you to move on or back...maybe take a time machine back to 2001 because your obsolete in evolved pvp.

if your pvp rank wasnt so low, id be able to take you more seriously lol

and i obviously know this games mechanics well since i farm zergs despite an ae cap. perhaps you should stop focusing on me, because you are coming across as "haters"

by the way, calling zerging "evolved pvp" is SO funny

Krinaman

Lowbei wrote: »

my people dont care about scrolls or keeps, and see them only as tool to farm ap

Obviously, the changes you suggest are all about buffing your play style while destroying the actual goals of the pvp in this game.

But what you really are saying is that this isn't the game for you. I wish you luck in finding one that is.

Lowbei

Krinaman wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

my people dont care about scrolls or keeps, and see them only as tool to farm ap

Obviously, the changes you suggest are all about buffing your play style while destroying the actual goals of the pvp in this game.

But what you really are saying is that this isn't the game for you. I wish you luck in finding one that is.

oh, it is, they are having internal discussions about the ae caps (confirmed by brian wheeler) and will likely be removing them soon due to the zergballs and server crashes.

until they fix it or add arenas (also coming soon) ill just be farming zergers while grumbling about caps, no biggie

jeradlub17_ESO

Rylana wrote: »

You do realize that removing the AOE cap would actually make these groups even more powerful right?
.......

Not true at all. You are looking at it backwards. Remove the aoe caps and the zerg balls will disappear because the cap is what protects them. They succeed because a zerg of 20 running over a guy will at most have only 6 people hit by any aoe spell in retaliation. There is no way that one guy can kill them all before they kill him even if he has a small 5 man group with him. You remove the aoe caps it increase the threat of that single man to that zerg because he will now be able to hit them all and if he has a few friends they could potentially kill them all or come close. Will the big zerg also be able to hit more...sure they will but due to their size and number they were already hitting everything. Removing the aoe caps works to dissipate zergs because it increases the threat of small numbers to large dense groups much more than it increases the power of a large group. They will have to spread out to survive. Being in a tight little ball will no longer be a smart thing to do because if aoe can hit everything they are in greater danger from just a few people with aoe that can hit everything near them. With just a healer at my back and some anti-cc I could single handedly wipe that 20 man zerg ball if I can hit them all. The cap is what is protecting them.

Lowbei

they know jeradlub

im not mad at them for blobbing, as its the only way some of these zergers will ever make ap

Rune_Relic

Lowbei wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

OK ..are you then saying.
DAoC game mechanics = ESO game mechanics.
..because unless they are 'identical ', the outcome will not be the same and is an unknown.

ESO make many changes to 'balance', all of which have had serious knock on consequences that were 'unforeseen' by 'experts'.

Personally I favour area aoe damage x range x area = damage.
Hence large damage, medium range, small area or
small damage, small area, long range.
Whatever gives you the same net damage / m2 / m

There is hence still an AOE cap.... but the kind of AOE is flexible.

lol the outcome isnt "unknown" and the result of blobbing from ae caps was detailed before release, on this very forum, by me and many others.

Yes... and the game has moved on a that since then.

Thechemicals

Lowbei wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

i think the big disconnect here is that the skilled players want competition, thus want to inspire these awful zergers into having the ambition to make a smallman, thus creating more competition, which will grow exponentially when arenas are introduced.

what he means to say is, you arent hurting "the game" you are hurting "competitive pvp" by zerging, and i dont think anyone here would argue that pvp should be more competitive/skill based.

You came to a game that has an entire history/franchise of making roleplaying games with a huge storyline and lore *and with a huge playerbase that are fans of the rpg genre.....for mainly competitive skilled pvp play.....and to not involve yourself in the actual pvp mechanics the game advertised.

I think at this point,its time for you to move on or back...maybe take a time machine back to 2001 because your obsolete in evolved pvp.

if your pvp rank wasnt so low, id be able to take you more seriously lol

and i obviously know this games mechanics well since i farm zergs despite an ae cap. perhaps you should stop focusing on me, because you are coming across as "haters"

by the way, calling zerging "evolved pvp" is SO funny

Low blow about my rank....low blow.

I think maybe you should try to play the game the way eso intended it instead of the way daoc intended you to play...eso?

Yeah this sort of pvp is an evolution of the small pvp and smaller instances of pvp like wow battlegrounds. It was first offered by funcom in aoc but it didnt pan out because they couldnt support the large scale pvp. This venture for large scale pvp has been a vision for companies for about a decade now and eso is part of that dream. PvP will continue to evolve to a point where youll have games where its total war; thousands vs thousands of people online battling it out and your place in all of that will be in the bottle necks they will create in those wars to cater to you.

Youre missing out on the fun. Grab some scrolls and capture some keeps with 30+ people sometime...youll be surprised how organized it can be....or be a fossil.