Why does this game insist on totally breaking the lore?

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO

I think it's also worth mentioning that Mankar Camoran is notoriously unreliable as a source, and that The Pocket Guide to the Empire is often riddled with inaccuracies.

Carnagan

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

I think it's also worth mentioning that Mankar Camoran is notoriously unreliable as a source, and that The Pocket Guide to the Empire is often riddled with inaccuracies.

Surely you jest, sir! That would be like saying that the Greybeards don't stay remained gagged at all times, as it says in the Guide and which we clearly see is the case in Skyrim.

BBSooner

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

I think it's also worth mentioning that Mankar Camoran is notoriously unreliable as a source, and that The Pocket Guide to the Empire is often riddled with inaccuracies.

Unreliable maybe, but knowledge of CHIM (even if not a complete understanding of it) does give him credibility about the subject - if only enough to be considered "more than the lay-man".

I personally prescribe to the "CHIM changed past/future Cyrodiil" theory since CHIM operates beyond time, and I prefer the Cyrodiil I play in - in any timeframe - to be Oblivions Cyrodiil (if only for nostalgia, I spent so many hours in TES:IV). Plus, weirder things have happened in TES lore, so eh.

coryevans_3b14_ESO

MercyKilling wrote: »

......and this is why I don't like lore hounds. Unless everything is strictly by the book, it's not acceptable to them.

I bet that the OP goes to movies and shouts "THAT COULDN'T HAPPEN!!"

Whatever happened to suspension of disbelief and artistic license? OOO. I know. Alternate reality/timeline.

A thousand times this. Stop being a ruiner and nit picking completely plausible scenarios because you think you're the smartest guy in the room. gawd, get a life.

Carnagan

BBSooner wrote: »

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

I think it's also worth mentioning that Mankar Camoran is notoriously unreliable as a source, and that The Pocket Guide to the Empire is often riddled with inaccuracies.

Unreliable maybe, but knowledge of CHIM (even if not a complete understanding of it) does give him credibility about the subject - if only enough to be considered "more than the lay-man".

That doesn't mean that the Red King was Tiber Septim or even Reman Cyrodiil. It could have been an Alyeid king who first owned Chim-el Adabal before it was given to Alessia, and he could have used CHIM to have the White-Gold Tower imbued with the power alter the land surrounding it.

My point is that Mankar doesn't actually say that Tiber Septim is the Red King. If we go by Cyrodiil being their home and having held the Amulet/Red Diamond, then Tiber Septim is actually the least likely of the potential candidates to be the Red King.

zdkazz

Laura wrote: »

Honestly I stopped caring about half way through questing. The ebonheart pact seems pretty on target but everything was all wrong at pretty much every turn on the other two factions.

One thing that really got to me is It seems like they screwed up khajit lore too when they made a female mane (I mean come on I'm all for equality but lore is lore). One of the defining factors of the mane is... well.. there mane. The previous leader had a glorious mane.

" The nominal head of the Khajiiti religion is a unique form of Khajiit known as The Mane. Khajiit legend claims that it is only possible for one mane to live at a time, and his birth is triggered by the birth of a newborn Khajiit when the two moons have fully aligned in the sky. The Mane is apparently bipedal, and clearly has the power of speech, but does not fall into any of the defined Khajiiti subtypes: he is simply unique. While he is, in theory, a neutral, unbiased religious leader, the Mane is the true power in Elsweyr, and was ultimately responsible for the success of the attempted unification of the province in the last Second Era."

I will admit I may have missed something here it is just the very latest thing I noticed but the OP is right, lore is bashed at every single turn in this game. I still love the game though and I'm fully willing to forgive.

There is also the possibility of a dragon break right?

actualy the "mane" is a woven headress formed by the hair of thousands of khajiits and so any gender can wear it...


In older days the Khajiit would shave off their manes in deference to the Mane, braiding them into locks which the Mane would incorporate into its own mane. As the population grew, however, this became impractical although the Khajiit still remove their manes and the current Mane still wears the hair of its tribe and Warrior Guard which includes several hundred in number. The Mane is so weighted down by the hair that movement is difficult without aid and it often travels the countryside by means of a palanquin.
source...
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mane
this is obviously impracticle in times of war so it is mostlikly only used serimoniouly not when fighhting would need to happen

Carnagan

zdkazz wrote: »

actualy the "mane" is a woven headress formed by the hair of thousands of khajiits and so any gender can wear it...

I like how the Mane in ESO actually comments on it, saying that it's only used for ceremonies now and that we can see the head-dress they do wear has hair locks to honor the tradition.

BBSooner

Carnagan wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

I think it's also worth mentioning that Mankar Camoran is notoriously unreliable as a source, and that The Pocket Guide to the Empire is often riddled with inaccuracies.

Unreliable maybe, but knowledge of CHIM (even if not a complete understanding of it) does give him credibility about the subject - if only enough to be considered "more than the lay-man".

That doesn't mean that the Red King was Tiber Septim or even Reman Cyrodiil. It could have been an Alyeid king who first owned Chim-el Adabal before it was given to Alessia, and he could have used CHIM to have the White-Gold Tower imbued with the power alter the land surrounding it.

My point is that Mankar doesn't actually say that Tiber Septim is the Red King. If we go by Cyrodiil being their home and having held the Amulet/Red Diamond, then Tiber Septim is actually the least likely of the potential candidates to be the Red King.

True, but who else had the power to change climate like this and also fit within the time frame of when it was jungle to when it was temperate? Im honestly curious who could have been able to swing that kind of power and not be already mentioned/widely debated in discussion threads when it seems that a lot of lore nerds reply - when asked how the jungle changed - that it was TS.

AngryNord

LadyNerevar wrote: »

This is an important and rarely heard perspective. The changes in lore between Daggerfall and Redguard were the biggest ever in the series, because it was written by a whole new staff of writers, who wanted to make their own marks on the world. Not much of it was outright contradiction, I don't think (if only because Daggerfall didn't include all that much to contradict), but most of it was a total tonal shift. The games since then, even with the jungle debacle, have kept more or less to the design set forth by that early team. More in some parts than in others, but both Skyrim and ESO do more than just pay homage to the PGE.

-Introduction of the Imperial Race
-Making Orcs 'civilized beings' instead of mostly a beast race
-Changing the naming conventions for the various races almost completely

Carnagan

BBSooner wrote: »

Carnagan wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Unreliable maybe, but knowledge of CHIM (even if not a complete understanding of it) does give him credibility about the subject - if only enough to be considered "more than the lay-man".

That doesn't mean that the Red King was Tiber Septim or even Reman Cyrodiil. It could have been an Alyeid king who first owned Chim-el Adabal before it was given to Alessia, and he could have used CHIM to have the White-Gold Tower imbued with the power alter the land surrounding it.

My point is that Mankar doesn't actually say that Tiber Septim is the Red King. If we go by Cyrodiil being their home and having held the Amulet/Red Diamond, then Tiber Septim is actually the least likely of the potential candidates to be the Red King.

True, but who else had the power to change climate like this and also fit within the time frame of when it was jungle to when it was temperate? Im honestly curious who could have been able to swing that kind of power and not be already mentioned/widely debated in discussion threads when it seems that a lot of lore nerds reply - when asked how the jungle changed - that it was TS.

But what time frame are we talking about? The only reference to anything changing is Mankar's vague rambling and a book that could have an author error, like the one that says Alyeids have done nothing.

Reman Cyrodiil was supposedly able to speak when he was an infant, so you could argue that he had also mastered CHIM.

The only reason people think that it was Septim was because of a lone developer comment that was never fully used in game, and the part that was left out is the important part that links it all together.

EDIT: Another point to consider. Mankar doesn't actually say that it was the Red King who changed the land.

Carnagan

LadyNerevar wrote: »

This is an important and rarely heard perspective. The changes in lore between Daggerfall and Redguard were the biggest ever in the series, because it was written by a whole new staff of writers, who wanted to make their own marks on the world. Not much of it was outright contradiction, I don't think (if only because Daggerfall didn't include all that much to contradict), but most of it was a total tonal shift. The games since then, even with the jungle debacle, have kept more or less to the design set forth by that early team. More in some parts than in others, but both Skyrim and ESO do more than just pay homage to the PGE.

There were some fairly substantial changes in general, but I have to say that the series was better for them. They made the world more unique and deeper than it had been before. I know I've enjoyed the games and the lore since I started with the series.

BBSooner

Carnagan wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Carnagan wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Unreliable maybe, but knowledge of CHIM (even if not a complete understanding of it) does give him credibility about the subject - if only enough to be considered "more than the lay-man".

That doesn't mean that the Red King was Tiber Septim or even Reman Cyrodiil. It could have been an Alyeid king who first owned Chim-el Adabal before it was given to Alessia, and he could have used CHIM to have the White-Gold Tower imbued with the power alter the land surrounding it.

My point is that Mankar doesn't actually say that Tiber Septim is the Red King. If we go by Cyrodiil being their home and having held the Amulet/Red Diamond, then Tiber Septim is actually the least likely of the potential candidates to be the Red King.

True, but who else had the power to change climate like this and also fit within the time frame of when it was jungle to when it was temperate? Im honestly curious who could have been able to swing that kind of power and not be already mentioned/widely debated in discussion threads when it seems that a lot of lore nerds reply - when asked how the jungle changed - that it was TS.

But what time frame are we talking about? The only reference to anything changing is Mankar's vague rambling and a book that could have an author error, like the one that says Alyeids have done nothing.

Reman Cyrodiil was supposedly able to speak when he was an infant, so you could argue that he had also mastered CHIM.

The only reason people think that it was Septim was because of a lone developer comment that was never fully used in game, and the part that was left out is the important part that links it all together.

Oh I agree, Kirkbrides post about TS's speech shouldn't be referenced, but I'm honestly curious what else could have done it. The White - Gold tower absolutely could have adjusted the biome (if I'm reading Subtropical Cyrodiil correctly) but until we are told X -> Y -> Z or see it I don't give it more (or less) credence than what Heimskr claims.

I think it's far more of a stretch to credit Cameron's reference to a figure less central to the myth as well than to assume he is merely referencing TS - who multiple sources claim divinity.

LadyNerevar

AngryNord wrote: »

-Introduction of the Imperial Race
-Making Orcs 'civilized beings' instead of mostly a beast race
-Changing the naming conventions for the various races almost completely

-The Orcs were a civilized race in Daggerfall - part of the game was about them getting their already existing kingdom recognized as a province. People didn't like them, and they weren't playable, but that doesn't mean that they were mindless savages who got turned sentient with Morrowind. In fact, Morrowind's making them playable makes perfect sense in terms of Daggerfall's ending, which did successfully get Orsinium recognized as an Imperial province.
-Can you provide examples of this? I know Argonians used to have Latin names, but I thought that was back in Arena? I can think of how some of the races were expanded, but I wouldn't call any of it a complete change.

And no, Reman being able to speak wouldn't be evidence to argue that he had CHIM. Being special and powerful isn't the criteria for that.

Carnagan

BBSooner wrote: »

Oh I agree, Kirkbrides post about TS's speech shouldn't be referenced, but I'm honestly curious what else could have done it. The White - Gold tower absolutely could have adjusted the biome (if I'm reading Subtropical Cyrodiil correctly) but until we are told X -> Y -> Z or see it I don't give it more (or less) credence than what Heimskr claims.

I think it's far more of a stretch to credit Cameron's reference to a figure less central to the myth as well than to assume he is merely referencing TS - who multiple sources claim divinity.

I worry about attributing everything to Septim, though, especially when he was such an important figure and yet no one seems to know about something he told people he was going to do. There are other options for who the Red King is. Reman Cyrodiil is an extremely mythical figure, despite not claims of divinity.

Something I recently noticed. Mankar doesn't claim that the Red King changed the land, only that CHIM was used to change it. The line about the Red King refers to location, not who used the CHIM. Which would actually make the White-Gold Tower idea much more likely, and much cleaner.

Carnagan

LadyNerevar wrote: »

-The Orcs were a civilized race in Daggerfall - part of the game was about them getting their already existing kingdom recognized as a province. People didn't like them, and they weren't playable, but that doesn't mean that they were mindless savages who got turned sentient with Morrowind. In fact, Morrowind's making them playable makes perfect sense in terms of Daggerfall's ending, which did successfully get Orsinium recognized as an Imperial province.

I think the difference is that Orcs were related to goblins and ogres and other savage races, rather than being an off-shoot of mer.

-Can you provide examples of this? I know Argonians used to have Latin names, but I thought that was back in Arena? I can think of how some of the races were expanded, but I wouldn't call any of it a complete change.

Copies of The Wild Elves found in Daggerfall and Morrowind speak of the races of Che, not of Mer.

"While three races of elven stock, Salache (or High), Boiche (or Wood), and Moriche (or Dark) have assimilated well to the new cultures of Tamriel..."

This line is changed to reflect the Mer races when the book appears in Oblivion and Skyrim. Which is weird since the book still completely denies the well known facts about the Alyeids found in Oblivion.

And no, Reman being able to speak wouldn't be evidence to argue that he had CHIM. Being special and powerful isn't the criteria for that.

Agreed, though it cuts same way for Septim, as we lack anything that clearly says he could/did harness CHIM let alone to alter a province.

The lack of information about how the people of Tamriel learned that Septim had ascended to Divinity has always bugged me as one of the weakest part of the lore.

BBSooner

Carnagan wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Oh I agree, Kirkbrides post about TS's speech shouldn't be referenced, but I'm honestly curious what else could have done it. The White - Gold tower absolutely could have adjusted the biome (if I'm reading Subtropical Cyrodiil correctly) but until we are told X -> Y -> Z or see it I don't give it more (or less) credence than what Heimskr claims.

I think it's far more of a stretch to credit Cameron's reference to a figure less central to the myth as well than to assume he is merely referencing TS - who multiple sources claim divinity.

I worry about attributing everything to Septim, though, especially when he was such an important figure and yet no one seems to know about something he told people he was going to do. There are other options for who the Red King is. Reman Cyrodiil is an extremely mythical figure, despite not claims of divinity.

Something I recently noticed. Mankar doesn't claim that the Red King changed the land, only that CHIM was used to change it. The line about the Red King refers to location, not who used the CHIM. Which would actually make the White-Gold Tower idea much more likely, and much cleaner.

I agree, I -hate- figures that find their way to centrality within a universe's lore (I dislike how MK has grown Vivec). I think it's the fact we only know "text book history" about Septim that I still find his character appealing.

And you also bring up a good point. How CHIM was used to alter Cyrodiil is completely unknown (ignoring MK's fan fiction).

ShedsHisTail

woodsro wrote: »

About the Cyrodiil Jungle

Its commonly known that Talos turned Cyrodiil from a jungle to what it looks like in ESO and in the 3rd era Oblivion.

Talos achieved CHIM, this meant he was no longer bound by the rules or restraints of the universe including time. This means Talos changed the landscape of Cyrodiil across the ENTIRE TIMELINE including the past. (This makes sense, because achieving CHIM allows this to be possible)

Its also important to distinct that Talos also used the "Thu"um or "The Voice" in conjunction with CHIM which may have given his particular circumstances much more weight, and may be part of the reason why he sits at the top of the Pantheon now...As its always refer to as "The Eight and the One" or the "Eight became Nine" it is debatable that Talos supplanted Akatosh as the chief Divine, but thats a topic for another discussion not today.

Lastly, Mankar Cameron confirms that Talos did indeed change Cyrodiil with CHIM in his writings The Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes: Book 3

CHIM. Those who know it can reshape the land. Witness the home of the Red King Once Jungled. -Mankar Cameron - The Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes: Book 3

So that much can be verified.

If you listen to Talos's Speech (Even Heimskr) he says:

Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter. I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you.'"

Note the bolded part.

Talos is telling them that he has achieved CHIM, as CHIM is the "secret syllable" of royalty, The word CHIM comes from the Old Ehlnofey meaning "royalty or high splendor"

So Talos actually uses the Voice (now that he was breathing in Royalty due to achieving CHIM) to quite literally use the Th"um to shout away the jungles and cooled Cyrodiil's climate so the land would be re-shaped.

It just seems when Talos done this, his change was retroactive due to CHIM as it allowed him to change the landscape across the entire timeline. its pretty fascinating to be honest.

Since Talos was breathing in royalty due to CHIM, this change was possible.

Or...
That could be the mythologized version of a more mundane story of deforestation and gradual climate change over the course of the time period prior to and including the Septim reign culminating with the death of Tiber Septim and attributed to his ascension as Talos.

I mean, do any of those authors say, "Naw, dude, I was there. Homie shouted and like, BAM, all the trees were gone."

No, they just talk about how the land was once a jungle, and now it isn't, and Talos is responsible.

ShedsHisTail

Don't get me wrong... I'm not saying that a more mundane deforestation story is the absolute answer.

What I'm saying is, it's important to remember that virtually everything we read in the Elder Scrolls games are more myth and legend than factual recitations of history. And that there are ways in which completely mundane stories can become embellished to make them more interesting to tell around a campfire while still retaining the broad strokes of actual historical events.

RinaldoGandolphi

As i have stated, my position on Cyrodiil stands...This has been verified by Kirkbride, and thats how it happened.

To those who say Kirkbride is "just fan fiction" and his work isn't canon because he no longer works for Bethesda

You couldn't be more wrong on that point.

MK acts as an independent contractor outside of regular employment in other firms. "Unlike an employee, an independent contractor does not work regularly for an employer but works as and when required". It's that simple. This is how he has worked with Bethesda, over the course of 13 years, since he ceased to be a full-time employee.

These contracts can be small, such as writing books or dialogue, or they can be large, such as writing Knights of the Nine. Here's a list of examples of MK's visible recent contributions to TES games (non-exhaustive):

Oblivion:

MK wrote much dialogue, including all of Mankar Camoran's.

He wrote the Knights of the Nine DLC.

He wrote many in-game books for Oblivion, including (but not limited to) Mankar Camoran's "Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes".

He was even credited as part of the development team as an additional writer (one of two, alongside Ted Peterson).

Skyrim:

Heimskr in Whiterun recites lines of "From the Many-Headed Talos", an out-of-game text written by MK.

The White-Gold Concordat was MK's idea.

After Skyrim's announcement, MK began to post Skyrim/Nord-related texts on the forums. These texts foreshadowed concepts included in Skyrim (either MK knew they were a part of the game thus proving his direct involvement in the development process, or Bethesda placed elements of the texts into the game after the texts were written thus proving they value his artistic influence). Here is a comment by game designer Kurt Kuhlmann regarding MK's influence on Skyrim.


In particular: Painted cows were included in Skyrim, a concept introduced by MK's out-of-game text "The Seven Fights of the Aldudagga: Fight Six, "The 911th Cow".

The Companions are included in Skyrim as a playable faction. The Companions' hall, Jorrvaskr, is made from the hull of Ysgramor's boat. This is a reference to MK's out-of-game text "The Five Hundred Mighty Companions or Thereabouts of Ysgramor the Returned". The in-game book "Songs of the Return" (written by Skyrim game designer/writer Shane Liesegang) also includes lore validating that text.

The in-game book "The Book of the Dragonborn" explicitly references the Towers (and them going down one by one) which are concepts introduced by MK in his out-of-game text "Nu-Mantia Intercept".

http://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/18uuw0/but_mk_doesnt_have_anything_to_do_with_bethesda/

So Micheal Kirkbride's writings, lore, and concepts were also not only present in Morrowind, but they were included in Oblivion and Skyrim as well with his in-game works.

However, it goes further, Kurt Kuhlmann, a developer and senior designer for Bethesda had this to say about Kirkbride and his influence in TES games:

And here I thought this was going to be the thread that finally answered the question "Who IS Michael Kirkbride, really?" Really deep, man... eight pages, there must be an answer in here somewhere...

We all try not to take it to heart that only MK can save Skyrim from the trash heap - but I can say that even without directly writing any books, I'd say there's more of his influence on Skyrim than Oblivion. Probably a lot more - if you look at the chapter from the PGE on Skyrim, (pretty sure that was one of his - I can't remember any more who wrote which one, it's Bilbo and Strider all over again), and that chapter is the foundation for the whole setting. And if you look really hard, you might even find a painted cow. (No comment on flying whales.)

http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1211123-michael-kirkbride/page-5#entry18300835

Kirkbride was posting concepts of Skyrim well before the game was released, concepts that became part of the game....There is no way Kirkbride could have known these things unless he was involved in some manner with the game (contract work)

Saying Kirkbride is not a reliable source is like saying Ted Peterson didn't create the TES World (which he did by the way) as Peterson is responsible hundreds of the books you find in-game were written by Peterson....so is absolutely ridiculous to say Kirkbride isn't a reliable source, when you have guys like Kurt Kuhlmann who works for Bethesda, and has been involed in TES projects since 1995 telling you otherwise, and telling you that Kirkbride is a huge impact on the game, that Kirkbride's influence on Skyrim was greater then it was on Oblivion.

The Fact Bethesda included quotes from Kirkbride's "Many Headed Talos" in Skyrim cements the fact that Talos changed Cyrodiil from a jungle to what it is in ESO/Oblivion.

The Book of the Dragonborn, written by Kirkbride, appearing in Skyrim, tell us Remen never took the title of Emperor in his lifetime, so Remen wasn't the one who changed Cyrodiil as Remen never achieved CHIM...only 3 people have ever achieved CHIM...Talos, Vivec, and the Neverine(if he followed the instruction Vivec left for him)...no one else has.

Lastly, here is the site setup by Kirkbride

http://c0da.es/

This new lore takes place in the 9th era, which tells me the TES may be getting "sorta of a reboot" when the next Single player game comes out, as it makes sense.

Kirkbride also posted the following cryptic message to Reddit:

The Canon Wars End Forever in...12 hours.

Get a head start! Post your contributions to C0DA large and small! Hell, post your own C0DA all up in The C0DA before it comes out!

Sequel to Morrowind? Too small. This is the Sequel to the Elder Scrolls Universe.

[edit] Post your very own C0DA at tomorrowindtoday.com! NOW FULLY FUNCTIONAL!

http://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/1xuy68/follow_me/

Now if history is any indicator, this refers to the next singleplayer game taking place far into the future of the events of Skyrim...looking at Kirkbride's track record of posting hints about Skyrim well before the games intended release, I'd say Kirkbrides track record speaks for itself....perhaps not all the lore and writings will be included, but Kirkbrides work will be a part of the next TES game just like it was in Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim....that alone is enough to cement his validity as a reliable source.

Without Peterson and Kirkbride, TES universe we play in wouldn't exist, to say these two are not valid sources is just illogical.



perhaps not all, but some of it will end up in a future TES game at some point...Without Kirkbride, the games would be boring and dull

if folks want to discount Kirkbride as an unreliable source, then they are missing what makes TES Lore and story so unique...the fact so much of his writings and influence have been put into the games should be enough to cement his authority every bit as much as Peterson....however...believe as you will....but keep an eye on that site and see how much of it comes true in the next few years

RinaldoGandolphi

For on Queen Ayrenn:

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/kinmune

http://c0da.es/ayrenn

Pretty much Kinmune is a being from the 9th era that was hurled back in time to Skyrim at the time of Ysgrammor's rule....panicked she began sending out distress signals in languages that haven't been created yet, and men/mer were drawn to her.(She could be said to be somewhat robotic)

Kinmune offered these folks glimpses into the future(since she was from the 9th era) in return for giving up parts of their heroism or mystery, after on of Ysgrammors most cherished advisors was horrible hurt, Ysgrammor sent his Companions and Sheild Brothers after Kinmune and seal her under the depths of Sarthaal.

Kiinmune later escaped, and sought refuge from those who imprisoned her, and plotted for her revenge, so she established herself as Queen Ayrenn of Altmer and began the militarization of the Summerset Isle leading to the creation of the 1st Aldmeri Dominion

So this was written in 2011 by Kirkbride, and here we are in 2014 and Queen Ayrenn is in the game....kinda funny eh?

So it seems Queen Ayrenn is not who she appears to be....:)

The Queen Ayrenn the person still exists, but in her adventures in Tamriel, she probably stumbled across the KINMUNE armor, and upon putting it on, KINMUNE took control of Ayrenn....

KINMUNE stands for Kinetically-Interlinked Nirnian Multi-User Exoform...so its a form of armor that can shape itself perfectly to anybody, to blend in, and it takes control of the mids of those who wear it...Ayrenn probably didn't even know it was KINMUNE until it was too late and she donned the armor.

Over time, Kinmune earned many names and titles as her new visitors took their counsel. She was the Oracle Iridescent, spoken of in the Green Tablet Steps of Jhunal. She was the Witch of Wire and String, able to allow the Sons and Daughters to see through her eyes into the myriad secrets of post-kalpica transmeditations. Perhaps most famously, she was Kinmune the Doom of the Dumb Old Giant, because for all the minds that she let wear her body, none escaped in whole thereafter, even those with blood of the karstaag. Kinmune always took a portion of her proxies’ power and mystery."

its actually kind of cool, and it fits...this may or may not be expanded upon though I don't know....but its interesting none the less that the possibility that Queen Ayrenn is actually being controlled by KINMUNE at the time of the 3 Banners War makes sense...as KINMUNE's hatred for men stems from them and Ysgrammor imprisoning her for what she feels was not her fault and she wants revenge.

Enodoc

Fans will argue about Kirkbridian lore's place in canon until the end of the current Kalpa (or the next one).

The belief of UESP is that only that which is directly presented by Bethesda (BGS/ZOS) is true canon. This makes only half of The Many-Headed Talos valid, and it's the half which does not include the neccessary line regarding the jungle. The Book of the Dragonborn's reference to Towers does not canonise Nu-Mantia Intercept. He may have a significant influence on TES, but only that which appears in official media is true canon.

Personally, I accept most Kirkbridian lore as a nice extension. But that stops any time he starts naming things in ALL CAPS. And what little I know of C0DA makes even less sense than some of that Dreamsleeve and Temple Zero stuff.

RinaldoGandolphi

@Endoc fair enough, thats a logical position to hold...im not saying Kirkbride is the only right one, im just saying his lore extensions hold weight and some of them are used to explain certain events, and many of them are later included in some manner.

ready my post about Queen Ayrenn though...its very intresting...considering they were written in 2011-2012 and here we have Ayrenn in ESO in 2014...it does make you think

BBSooner

Enodoc wrote: »

Fans will argue about Kirkbridian lore's place in canon until the end of the current Kalpa (or the next one).

The belief of UESP is that only that which is directly presented by Bethesda (BGS/ZOS) is true canon. This makes only half of The Many-Headed Talos valid, and it's the half which does not include the neccessary line regarding the jungle. The Book of the Dragonborn's reference to Towers does not canonise Nu-Mantia Intercept. He may have a significant influence on TES, but only that which appears in official media is true canon.

Personally, I accept most Kirkbridian lore as a nice extension. But that stops any time he starts naming things in ALL CAPS. And what little I know of C0DA makes even less sense than some of that Dreamsleeve and Temple Zero stuff.

Exactly this, for me at least. If it isn't presented or backed by Bethesda(or ZOS, as well now) then it's fan-fiction to me. Kirkbrides stuff is good (some of it, the(edit: KINMUNE) stuff is terrible imo) but if it didn't make it in to official media then it shouldn't be considered official, imo.

Enodoc

woodsro wrote: »

@Endoc fair enough, thats a logical position to hold...im not saying Kirkbride is the only right one, im just saying his lore extensions hold weight and some of them are used to explain certain events, and many of them are later included in some manner.

ready my post about Queen Ayrenn though...its very intresting...considering they were written in 2011-2012 and here we have Ayrenn in ESO in 2014...it does make you think

@woodsro Oh yeah that's quite interesting. At the very least, ZOS used the name and the premise of the first Dominion from it. I didn't realise that was as old as 2011.
Although they were working on ESO for at least five years, so he may well have known what was going on.
(btw, it's Enodoc, with two 'o's, so I'm not getting your notifications)

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO

woodsro wrote: »

To those who say Kirkbride is "just fan fiction" and his work isn't canon because he no longer works for Bethesda

You couldn't be more wrong on that point.

MK is an independent contractor. I could be hired to do renovations on a house, but when my contract runs out, I can't go back and make changes to the house at will. I can't make whatever renovations I'd like, either.

woodsro wrote: »

if folks want to discount Kirkbride as an unreliable source, then they are missing what makes TES Lore and story so unique...the fact so much of his writings and influence have been put into the games should be enough to cement his authority every bit as much as Peterson....however...believe as you will....but keep an eye on that site and see how much of it comes true in the next few years

Ayrenn's already an interesting character. Making her a time traveling robot from the ninth era doesn't make her cooler, and it doesn't really justify her motivations.

Metaphysical craziness doesn't automatically equal good writing, and I wholly disagree that people who haven't read Kirkbride's out of game texts are missing out. Not everyone liked c0da, not everyone likes the idea behind Landfall. Some people really enjoy his writings, which I think is great, but it's unfair to push them on people as canon.

Shunravi

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theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

To those who say Kirkbride is "just fan fiction" and his work isn't canon because he no longer works for Bethesda

You couldn't be more wrong on that point.

MK is an independent contractor. I could be hired to do renovations on a house, but when my contract runs out, I can't go back and make changes to the house at will. I can't make whatever renovations I'd like, either.

woodsro wrote: »

if folks want to discount Kirkbride as an unreliable source, then they are missing what makes TES Lore and story so unique...the fact so much of his writings and influence have been put into the games should be enough to cement his authority every bit as much as Peterson....however...believe as you will....but keep an eye on that site and see how much of it comes true in the next few years

Ayrenn's already an interesting character. Making her a time traveling robot from the ninth era doesn't make her cooler, and it doesn't really justify her motivations.

Metaphysical craziness doesn't automatically equal good writing, and I wholly disagree that people who haven't read Kirkbride's out of game texts are missing out. Not everyone liked c0da, not everyone likes the idea behind Landfall. Some people really enjoy his writings, which I think is great, but it's unfair to push them on people as canon.

Well said.
Though, with the lore being as unreliable as it is, I'm not supprised people turn to someone involved in the lore like Kirkbride to get some stability. Heck, I'm still half and half on whether or not the events of the Shivering Isles actually happened. or if they, and everything we learned there, were just a production by the Lord of Madness to drive the hero (and by extension, me) insane. And that was just a dlc.

AngryNord

LadyNerevar wrote: »

-Can you provide examples of this? I know Argonians used to have Latin names, but I thought that was back in Arena? I can think of how some of the races were expanded, but I wouldn't call any of it a complete change.

Arena and Daggerfall used the same naming conventions: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Names

As you said, Argonians had Latin/Greek-sounding names, while Elves and Bretons had very Tolkien-like names. Also, both Bosmer and Altmer had surnames (post-Daggerfall they very rarely do). Redguard and Khajiit names were kinda different too.

ShedsHisTail

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

To those who say Kirkbride is "just fan fiction" and his work isn't canon because he no longer works for Bethesda

You couldn't be more wrong on that point.

MK is an independent contractor. I could be hired to do renovations on a house, but when my contract runs out, I can't go back and make changes to the house at will. I can't make whatever renovations I'd like, either.

woodsro wrote: »

if folks want to discount Kirkbride as an unreliable source, then they are missing what makes TES Lore and story so unique...the fact so much of his writings and influence have been put into the games should be enough to cement his authority every bit as much as Peterson....however...believe as you will....but keep an eye on that site and see how much of it comes true in the next few years

Ayrenn's already an interesting character. Making her a time traveling robot from the ninth era doesn't make her cooler, and it doesn't really justify her motivations.

Metaphysical craziness doesn't automatically equal good writing, and I wholly disagree that people who haven't read Kirkbride's out of game texts are missing out. Not everyone liked c0da, not everyone likes the idea behind Landfall. Some people really enjoy his writings, which I think is great, but it's unfair to push them on people as canon.

I get the impression that they use Kirkbrides work as a source of inspiration, picking and choosing bits here and there; but not necessarily incorporating all of it.

I could totally see a lore-Dev going, "Well, Ayrenn is a great name for Altmeri Queen, but this time-travelling robot stuff is crap. Just use the name, guys."

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

theroyalestpythonnub18_ESO wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

To those who say Kirkbride is "just fan fiction" and his work isn't canon because he no longer works for Bethesda

You couldn't be more wrong on that point.

MK is an independent contractor. I could be hired to do renovations on a house, but when my contract runs out, I can't go back and make changes to the house at will. I can't make whatever renovations I'd like, either.

woodsro wrote: »

if folks want to discount Kirkbride as an unreliable source, then they are missing what makes TES Lore and story so unique...the fact so much of his writings and influence have been put into the games should be enough to cement his authority every bit as much as Peterson....however...believe as you will....but keep an eye on that site and see how much of it comes true in the next few years

Ayrenn's already an interesting character. Making her a time traveling robot from the ninth era doesn't make her cooler, and it doesn't really justify her motivations.

Metaphysical craziness doesn't automatically equal good writing, and I wholly disagree that people who haven't read Kirkbride's out of game texts are missing out. Not everyone liked c0da, not everyone likes the idea behind Landfall. Some people really enjoy his writings, which I think is great, but it's unfair to push them on people as canon.

I get the impression that they use Kirkbrides work as a source of inspiration, picking and choosing bits here and there; but not necessarily incorporating all of it.

I could totally see a lore-Dev going, "Well, Ayrenn is a great name for Altmeri Queen, but this time-travelling robot stuff is crap. Just use the name, guys."

it also gets all kinds of rumors and debates going only using bits and pieces. That's more people talking about the game which is free publicity really.

RinaldoGandolphi

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

I could totally see a lore-Dev going, "Well, Ayrenn is a great name for Altmeri Queen, but this time-travelling robot stuff is crap. Just use the name, guys."

Just calling KINMUNE a time travelling robot is too simple and not wholly accurate.

She WAS a robot at one time, but her allowing others "wear her" and she absorb fragments of their conscious until eventually KINMUNE became a sentient being. Its not far fetched about space travel in the future, who would have thought in the middle ages we would put a man on the moon? So its not really that far fetched.

KINMUNE is kinda like the Symbiote that makes up the Marvel Comic book villian Venom....Venom knows everything about Peter Parker because he absorbed part of Parkers consciousness to a degree, KINMUNE is the same....KINMUNE attached to Ayrenn while she was out exploring Tamriel and spent a lot of time in Skyrim by her own confession.

It also explains how knowledgeable Ayrenn is for her age...

Im not sayings its canon, im just from a writing perspective its plausible...Ayrenn being controled by KINMUNE makes a lot of sense and explains the elfs hatred for humans among other things, as KINMUNE feels she was imprisoned wrongly.

Its makes you wonder, did the Snow Elves really attack the Atmorans on the Night of Tears over the Eye of Magnus? or did the Snow Elves attack because they were trying to protect KINMUNE whom they had come to revere as a seer, prophet, etc (according to Kirkbridge of course) im not saying any of this is canon, its just fun to speculate.