Why does this game insist on totally breaking the lore?

CirithValaria

AvA gods erased the "lushness" so that fps mortals could rejoice!

ShedsHisTail

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Natjur wrote: »

ESO is in a parallel universe where events happened a little different.

There problem solved

no, that has never been stated by the devs at any point. It is the same universe.

Pretty sure he/she is being sarcastic.

ShedsHisTail

CirithValaria wrote: »

AvA gods erased the "lushness" so that fps mortals could rejoice!

Intense deforestation to build all those seige engines.

Historically speaking, it wasn't uncommon for cities to deforest the areas surrounding them both for resources and to ensure that an approaching enemy couldn't use the trees for cover. The hunt for lumber is one of the biggest motivators for the age of exploration which resulted in the "discovery" of the Americas. The -exportation- of lumber from the Americas was one of the largest economies shortly there after and is still largely responsible for the sparse woodlands of the American east as far west as the Mississippi.

For reference:


What I'm saying is, folks can use up a lot of forest in a damned hurry if motivated. No reason Cyrodiil couldn't have been clearcut. :P

CirithValaria

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

CirithValaria wrote: »

AvA gods erased the "lushness" so that fps mortals could rejoice!

Intense deforestation to build all those seige engines.

Historically speaking, it wasn't uncommon for cities to deforest the areas surrounding them both for resources and to ensure that an approaching enemy couldn't use the trees for cover. The hunt for lumber is one of the biggest motivators for the age of exploration which resulted in the "discovery" of the Americas. The -exportation- of lumber from the Americas was one of the largest economies shortly there after and is still largely responsible for the sparse woodlands of the American east as far west as Ohio.

What I'm saying is, folks can use up a lot of forest in a damned hurry if motivated. No reason Cyrodiil couldn't have been clearcut. :P

Yep, after all there's quite many lumbers on the map

ShedsHisTail

CirithValaria wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

CirithValaria wrote: »

AvA gods erased the "lushness" so that fps mortals could rejoice!

Intense deforestation to build all those seige engines.

Historically speaking, it wasn't uncommon for cities to deforest the areas surrounding them both for resources and to ensure that an approaching enemy couldn't use the trees for cover. The hunt for lumber is one of the biggest motivators for the age of exploration which resulted in the "discovery" of the Americas. The -exportation- of lumber from the Americas was one of the largest economies shortly there after and is still largely responsible for the sparse woodlands of the American east as far west as Ohio.

What I'm saying is, folks can use up a lot of forest in a damned hurry if motivated. No reason Cyrodiil couldn't have been clearcut. :P

Yep, after all there's quite many lumbers on the map

Actually, the more that I think about it, and the history of conflict around the Imperial City, the more plausible (and less humorous) a theory it seems. It wouldn't be until a relative peace was established that you might see some of the grow back.

BBSooner

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

CirithValaria wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

CirithValaria wrote: »

AvA gods erased the "lushness" so that fps mortals could rejoice!

Intense deforestation to build all those seige engines.

Historically speaking, it wasn't uncommon for cities to deforest the areas surrounding them both for resources and to ensure that an approaching enemy couldn't use the trees for cover. The hunt for lumber is one of the biggest motivators for the age of exploration which resulted in the "discovery" of the Americas. The -exportation- of lumber from the Americas was one of the largest economies shortly there after and is still largely responsible for the sparse woodlands of the American east as far west as Ohio.

What I'm saying is, folks can use up a lot of forest in a damned hurry if motivated. No reason Cyrodiil couldn't have been clearcut. :P

Yep, after all there's quite many lumbers on the map

Actually, the more that I think about it, and the history of conflict around the Imperial City, the more plausible (and less humorous) a theory it seems. It wouldn't be until a relative peace was established that you might see some of the grow back.

Just one more reason the Septim Dynasty was good for Tamriel. You're welcome, hippies.

CheesyDaedra

This is basic lore people, don't be surprised this guy wrote such a long post.

OT: There are some theories in regards to these inconsistencies, they say the game is happening during a Dragonbreak, which is why there are multiple people playing the Main Story, books from other Eras are appearing and an overall chaos is taking over Nirn. They also say that Talos could have removed Cyrodiil's jungle over the whole extension of time (forwards,backwards, maybe even upwards), and that's why you see Cyro as it is now. Cropsford could have been destroyed by the goblins themselves in the first place. Also the elves are general idiots and jerks, so that's not lorebreaking ._.

-- Also go back to WoW lore haters C:<

Spottswoode

The term jungle can be misleading to people who believe it refers to tropical enviroments. It is usually used to refer to forest overgrowth but because the term is non-specific in a scientific sense it has largely been replaced with rainforest. Rainforest merely refers to the amount of rainfall a biome receives. Cyrodiil is a temperate rainforest based on the rainfall and tree species inhabiting it. This means that unlike tropical rainforest, the soil in temperate rainforests is viable after an area has been deforested or large fires.

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

CirithValaria wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

CirithValaria wrote: »

AvA gods erased the "lushness" so that fps mortals could rejoice!

Intense deforestation to build all those seige engines.

Historically speaking, it wasn't uncommon for cities to deforest the areas surrounding them both for resources and to ensure that an approaching enemy couldn't use the trees for cover. The hunt for lumber is one of the biggest motivators for the age of exploration which resulted in the "discovery" of the Americas. The -exportation- of lumber from the Americas was one of the largest economies shortly there after and is still largely responsible for the sparse woodlands of the American east as far west as Ohio.

What I'm saying is, folks can use up a lot of forest in a damned hurry if motivated. No reason Cyrodiil couldn't have been clearcut. :P

Yep, after all there's quite many lumbers on the map

Actually, the more that I think about it, and the history of conflict around the Imperial City, the more plausible (and less humorous) a theory it seems. It wouldn't be until a relative peace was established that you might see some of the grow back.

All of the above points are valid. Fire is the primary weapon used in siege tactics and wood is primary material used for on the spot fortifications. Having a few continual centuries of wars and massive fires can very easily deforest a region. However, since this is a rainforest there should be quite a few more rivers and lakes by the Third Era. The amount of erosion would almost certainly increase after longer periods of deforestation.

LadyNerevar

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

@woodsro
Sorry mate but who "wrote" the lore?

Because the majority of the Lore in the Imperial Library, is written by the fan base. Not by the person who created the ES lore.

Sorry to butt into this thread, but this is wrong. The vast majority of the lore on the Imperial Library is pulled directly from the games or supplementary materials - which means that it is written by the developers. The rest of the information on the Imperial Library is fan-compiled information from the games... which means that it's also written by the developers.

There is no fan made lore on the Imperial Library. There is also no one person that created ES lore.

As for the Jungle debacle, you guys have read Subtropical Cyrodiil, right? It fits quite nicely with Red King Once Jungled to explain why the biome keeps changing on us.

ShedsHisTail

Spottswoode wrote: »

The term jungle can be misleading to people who believe it refers to tropical enviroments. It is usually used to refer to forest overgrowth but because the term is non-specific in a scientific sense it has largely been replaced with rainforest. Rainforest merely refers to the amount of rainfall a biome receives. Cyrodiil is a temperate rainforest based on the rainfall and tree species inhabiting it. This means that unlike tropical rainforest, the soil in temperate rainforests is viable after an area has been deforested or large fires.

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

CirithValaria wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

CirithValaria wrote: »

AvA gods erased the "lushness" so that fps mortals could rejoice!

Intense deforestation to build all those seige engines.

Historically speaking, it wasn't uncommon for cities to deforest the areas surrounding them both for resources and to ensure that an approaching enemy couldn't use the trees for cover. The hunt for lumber is one of the biggest motivators for the age of exploration which resulted in the "discovery" of the Americas. The -exportation- of lumber from the Americas was one of the largest economies shortly there after and is still largely responsible for the sparse woodlands of the American east as far west as Ohio.

What I'm saying is, folks can use up a lot of forest in a damned hurry if motivated. No reason Cyrodiil couldn't have been clearcut. :P

Yep, after all there's quite many lumbers on the map

Actually, the more that I think about it, and the history of conflict around the Imperial City, the more plausible (and less humorous) a theory it seems. It wouldn't be until a relative peace was established that you might see some of the grow back.

All of the above points are valid. Fire is the primary weapon used in siege tactics and wood is primary material used for on the spot fortifications. Having a few continual centuries of wars and massive fires can very easily deforest a region. However, since this is a rainforest there should be quite a few more rivers and lakes by the Third Era. The amount of erosion would almost certainly increase after longer periods of deforestation.

So it's settled then. In order to glorify their diety, Imperial Scholars opted to attribute to Talos an environmental change which was actually the result of centuries of deforestation.

Lore!
Write it down.

:P

henrycupcakerwb17_ESO

wow.........i am speechless lol ......

MercyKilling

......and this is why I don't like lore hounds. Unless everything is strictly by the book, it's not acceptable to them.

I bet that the OP goes to movies and shouts "THAT COULDN'T HAPPEN!!"

Whatever happened to suspension of disbelief and artistic license? OOO. I know. Alternate reality/timeline.

Istyar

The problems start with a class named "Dragon Knight"...

kassandratheclericb14_ESO

LadyNerevar wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

@woodsro
Sorry mate but who "wrote" the lore?

Because the majority of the Lore in the Imperial Library, is written by the fan base. Not by the person who created the ES lore.

Sorry to butt into this thread, but this is wrong. The vast majority of the lore on the Imperial Library is pulled directly from the games or supplementary materials - which means that it is written by the developers. The rest of the information on the Imperial Library is fan-compiled information from the games... which means that it's also written by the developers.

There is no fan made lore on the Imperial Library. There is also no one person that created ES lore.

As for the Jungle debacle, you guys have read Subtropical Cyrodiil, right? It fits quite nicely with Red King Once Jungled to explain why the biome keeps changing on us.

There is however, much fan-made lore INTERPRETATION going on there. Which can often be mistaken for lore by those new to it.

Dayel

Art can emulate life - "If you’d visited Antarctica 50 million years ago, you could have lounged beneath swaying palm trees and enjoyed balmy 68-degree weather.

Yes, seriously. Drilling off Antarctica’s east coast has revealed fossil pollens that came from a “near-tropical” rainforest that once covered the icy continent,"

bellanca6561n

My problem with ESO has been that it has violated the canon of online gaming that I have enjoyed and followed since the debut of Island of Kesmai in 1984:

An online game is a narrative told by the audience. This is what makes online gaming the most remarkable and innovative of all entertainment media.

Thus, at first, I saw all imposed story as a violation or, at least, a dilution of this medium I love.

However, the more I play it, the more I appreciate and truly enjoy the lore it contains.

Thank you, Woodsro

Kronosphere

rbenkepub19_ESO wrote: »

Wow. How the heck to you even know all this detail? My hat is off to you, sir.

I can't begin to address the individual points you raise; I can only surmise that some bending of the lore was needed to 1) Turn ES into an MMO; 2) Turn ES into an interesting MMO.

There's no point in trying to debate me on those points - I can't defend them. I'm just throwing them out there.

ah yup make it interesting as innn.. attempting to copy and paste all the things the mindless soccer mums who played oblivion or maybe skyrim once remember, put it into the game (copy paste) so they can feel warm and fuzzy and say ooooooh yaaaaaaay this is like the game i playeded once this is familiar ima spend money on this till the next candy crush is out =DDDDD

this isnt directed at who i quoted btw, but i must say wtf u mean turn ES into an interesting mmo? how is making it more bland and boring good for making it interesting?

i also love this game but someone needs to be thrown into red mountain for this blesphemy. i feel like the developers of CoD got together with EA and candy crush devs to quickly pump out the story and make $$$$$

Enodoc

Kronosphere wrote: »

i also love this game but someone needs to be thrown into red mountain for this blesphemy.

Which blasphemy? Haven't we covered off all of the OP's points sufficiently that we are in agreement that they haven't broken the lore much at all?

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

rbenkepub19_ESO wrote: »

Wow. How the heck to you even know all this detail?

Sites like this one, of many: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Main_Page

But especially this one: http://www.imperial-library.info/

Celenaro

Enodoc wrote: »

Kronosphere wrote: »

i also love this game but someone needs to be thrown into red mountain for this blesphemy.

Which blasphemy? Haven't we covered off all of the OP's points sufficiently that we are in agreement that they haven't broken the lore much at all?

The Chimer look exactly like Dunmer. I know that's a minor thing but it really rustles my jimmies.

BBSooner

Walk_Brass wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Kronosphere wrote: »

i also love this game but someone needs to be thrown into red mountain for this blesphemy.

Which blasphemy? Haven't we covered off all of the OP's points sufficiently that we are in agreement that they haven't broken the lore much at all?

The Chimer look exactly like Dunmer. I know that's a minor thing but it really rustles my jimmies.

I agreed, hopefully they fix the dunmer models and replace them with altmer models do it's at least closer.

Enodoc

Walk_Brass wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Kronosphere wrote: »

i also love this game but someone needs to be thrown into red mountain for this blesphemy.

Which blasphemy? Haven't we covered off all of the OP's points sufficiently that we are in agreement that they haven't broken the lore much at all?

The Chimer look exactly like Dunmer. I know that's a minor thing but it really rustles my jimmies.

Hmm I was thinking about that one. Is that in relation to the Windows on the Past / The Brothers Will Rise quests at the Brothers of Strife monument?
The problem with these quests is that they take place in the past, and you are therefore subject to the "blueness of history" (whereby every quest which takes place in the past adds a blue filter to the world). I think, if you were to somehow remove the blueness, then the Chimer would be more golden-skinned than ashen-skinned.
See for example, this image of a Chimer from TES Wiki:

Although I have no clue how they got it. Unless the blue filter bugged out and they took advantage of that.

BBSooner

@Enodoc that may be the case (regarding the screen tint to denote the past), its been awhile since I've done the quest but I do remember thinking "these just look like Dunmer models with grey skin". The time of day players do the quest could also effect the look.

Dayel

The book situation is simple, they are from the Unseen University Library in Morpork, which spans all libraries in all times and places via L-Space. More will be provided if you bring in sufficient bananas.

Carnagan

Couple of things.

Cyrodiil Jungle
The ESO suggestions of a mistranslation or an effect of the White-Gold Tower makes far more sense than the half-assed "Talos did it" excuse in Oblivion.

- First of all, it doesn't make sense to say Tiber Septim did it. We know that it rained for a week after Tiber Septim's death because historians recorded that, but they didn't see fit to record that he also terraformed an entire province? With two games to fit in a single passage referring to it?

The First Emperor, who rose to divinity, changes a province and no one thinks it's important? Not even for religious reasons? You would think that there would be a single in-game lore book or piece of dialogue that makes a clear reference to the event in the game set in the province he transformed. Or in the game where his divinity is a major point of conflict.

Why would they leave it out? There is no reason for the Third Empire to try to suppress this fact or hide it, quite the opposite, and every reason for the Stormcloaks to parade it out as often as they can to show the righteousness of their cause.

- Second, developer lore is not actual lore until it ends up in game or actual published official products. Before that point the lore is just a thought process and open to change.

- Continuing with the Many Headed Talos quote, yes, part of the quote is found in Skyrim, as said by Heimskr. But actually listen to what he says, because he doesn't use the whole quote. He leaves out "You have suffered for me to win this throne, and I see how you hate jungle."

That's kind of important, because it's the part that actually refers to changing the jungle! Remove that line and changing the land can refer to ending the conflict and strife of the Interregnum and bringing about a time of peace and prosperity. Which makes far more sense seeing as otherwise no one thought that changing an entire climate was something worth writing down.

What is left is not a clear statement about Talos changing the land. You'd think he of all people would have crowed about an actually godly act like that constantly, not make allusion to it while leaving out the key sentence.

- Continuing further with Heimskr, he's not a reliable source. He also claims that Talos ascended and took over for Akatosh as the ruler of the Divines. So unless you agree with that chestnut, it becomes hard to take his other claims seriously.

- Going back to The Pocket Guide to the Empire, which was published with the game Redguard and is the first glimpse at the Tamriel that will be, we see other lore breaks.

And want to know which game destroys the lore found in the Pocket Guide much, much worse than ESO and Cyrodiil?

Morrowind.

Morrowind Lore Breaks
- First, the Pocket guide notes that, before the creation of the Tribunal, Morrowind was conquered by the First Empire of the Nords. This Empire spanned Skyrim, High Rock, Morrowind and parts of Cyrodiil.

From the Pocket Guide
"When first we hear of the Dark Elves, they were divided into numerous petty clans, half of whom were at war with the other half at any given moment. The Nord Sagas speak of Dark Elven warriors pledging themselves to any Nord chieftain who went to war with their clan enemies, a circumstance which undoubtedly facilitated their Conquest by the Nords."

- It is important to note that the Pocket Guide says Dunmer, not Chimer. It further adds:
"The Dark Elves appear in the written record in 1E416, during the War of Succession which destroyed the First Empire of the Nords: 'and seeing that the Nords were divided, and weak, the Dunmer took counsel among themselves, and gathered together in their secret places, and plotted against the kinsmen of Borgas, and suddenly arose, and fell upon the Nords, and drove them from the land of Dunmereth with great slaughter.' "

So, in-game period documents from 1E416 reference the Dunmer as Dunmer, not Chimer.

- Keeping the date in mind, notice the following.
"Thus ended the First Empire of men, at the hands of the Dark Elves. It is not for another two centuries that we first hear of the Tribunal, who perhaps arose to prominence in the ruin wrought by the first eruption of Vvardenfell, which laid waste at least half of Morrowind, and led to a permanent shift of population south towards the Deshaan, the broad southern plain which gradually slopes down into the dismal swamps of Black Marsh. Be that as it may, under the Tribunal cult the Dark Elven clans were finally welded into one nation, although clan rivalry remains bitter up to the present day, and the clans cooperate with one another only with reluctance."

The Pocket Guide also places the Vvardenfell eruption as occuring in 1E 668.

So that means that we have Dunmer existing as Dunmer, not Chimer, two hundred and fifty-two years before Vvardenfell explodes, the Tribunal is formed, and the Chimer become the Dunmer.

- The game Morrowind threw out lore that was established in the Pocket Guide that was integral to the history of the land, the Dunmer race AND the creation of the Tribunal. That seems to be a smidge larger of a lore break that changing Cyrodiil into a temperate forest a few hundred years early. If anything, Morrowind is far worse because it breaks lore that was created specifically while it was being developed (as is shown in the Redguard manual where they reference where they are working on it).

Pocket Guide Breaks
The Pocket Guide has many, many more lore breaks. Frankly it is one massive lore break in and of itself. But I will just mention my two favourite.

- Daggerfall's Manual states that there are no peoples indigenous to Cyrodiil. The Pocket Guide introduces two, the Colovians and the Nibenese.

- Daggerfall also says that "legend" states that the Khajiit are descended from great desert cats. The Pocket Guide suddenly turns them from humans with tails into a bizarre multi-form race who are tied to the moon.

On The Infallibility of Lore Books
- So, we have shown that the Pocket Guide has not been considered accurate for a long time, have no reliable in-game evidence as to anyone noticing that Talos terraformed Cyrodiil, and can't rely on an unused developer comment compared to what shows up in game. That leaves one book that actually refers to Cyrodiil being a jungle.

And that book is Provinces of Tamriel.

- This book shows up in Morrowind and Oblivion and BOTH contain the following line.

"Cyrodiil is the cradle of Human Imperial high culture on Tamriel. It is the largest region of the continent, and most is endless jungle."

- So we have a line in a book that is completely ignored in a game that contradicts it.

- But you should note that lore books stick around, even after the lore has been ignored. Case in point is a book that appears in Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim, The Wild Elves

- The Wild Elves is important important in this debate because it says the following.
"The Ayleids continue to be one of the greatest enigmas of the continent of Tamriel. They seldom appear in the pages of written history in any role, and then only as a strange sight a chronicler stumbles upon before they vanish into the wood. When probable fiction is filtered from common legend, we are left with almost nothing. The mysterious ways of the Ayleids have remained shrouded since before the first era, and may well remain so for thousands of years to come."

-This "Ayleids are mysterious and uninvolved in history at all" comment echoes the Pocket Guide, which makes no reference to Ayleids ever having enslaved humanity. That seems like kind of a big thing to forget, especially since we have so much lore that talks about how they enslaved humanity and built a huge empire and so on.

- This leaves us with a long established lore book that contradicts other books and in game evidence. And that has been contradicted and has for more effect on the setting than Cyrodiil not being a jungle. And this is not the first time this has happened and it will not be the last.

Conclusion
- None of the sources for the Cyrodiil jungle theory stand up to scrutiny or common sense. It is a bit of old lore that was discarded back in Oblivion and hasn't been used since. ESO isn't the game that threw that theory out, it was Oblivion and Skyrim when they never actually bothered to deal with the concept at all.

- As others have said, lore is a fluid thing in the Elder Scrolls. Past games have mangled the lore far, far worse than ESO has. So if you enjoy the other games despite their lore breaks you should calm down. ESO has taken no more liberties with the lore than any other Elder Scrolls game has.

If anything, I would say that these lore breaks enrich the lore, not harm it.

LadyNerevar

kassandratheclericb14_ESO wrote: »

There is however, much fan-made lore INTERPRETATION going on there. Which can often be mistaken for lore by those new to it.

Where? The forums and the Forum Scholar's Guild are the only places offering interpretation.

The Pocket Guide has many, many more lore breaks.

There is a big, big differences between "breaking lore" and being an in-universe author error. The Pocket Guide is full of the latter. As is Heimskr.

Carnagan

LadyNerevar wrote: »

There is a big, big differences between "breaking lore" and being an in-universe author error. The Pocket Guide is full of the latter. As is Heimskr.

Sometimes lore breaks and author error are one and the same. The important author errors don't actually become errors until a new game comes in, breaks with the previously established lore and then runs in a different direction. The Guide's well-sourced history of the Dunmer versus the history the series replaced it with in Morrowind being a prime example.

Overall, I do agree with you. The Redguard manual is one of my favourite pieces of Elder Scrolls products because the Guide is such a good (and biased) read. The drawings and scribbled Thalmor notes are great too. I still go back and look at it for lore purposes fairly often.

If I'm completely honest, though, I have to admit that Redguard also killed my ability to worry about Elder Scrolls canon. After playing Daggerfall for a few years as a Khajiit and then opening Redguard and wondering "What the hell is that thing" onseeing S'Ratha and the Khajiit in the comic... You either mellow out and enjoy the ride or rage quit as your favourite game stops being the world you thought it was.

RinaldoGandolphi

About the Cyrodiil Jungle

Its commonly known that Talos turned Cyrodiil from a jungle to what it looks like in ESO and in the 3rd era Oblivion.

Talos achieved CHIM, this meant he was no longer bound by the rules or restraints of the universe including time. This means Talos changed the landscape of Cyrodiil across the ENTIRE TIMELINE including the past. (This makes sense, because achieving CHIM allows this to be possible)

Its also important to distinct that Talos also used the "Thu"um or "The Voice" in conjunction with CHIM which may have given his particular circumstances much more weight, and may be part of the reason why he sits at the top of the Pantheon now...As its always refer to as "The Eight and the One" or the "Eight became Nine" it is debatable that Talos supplanted Akatosh as the chief Divine, but thats a topic for another discussion not today.

Lastly, Mankar Cameron confirms that Talos did indeed change Cyrodiil with CHIM in his writings The Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes: Book 3

CHIM. Those who know it can reshape the land. Witness the home of the Red King Once Jungled. -Mankar Cameron - The Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes: Book 3

So that much can be verified.

If you listen to Talos's Speech (Even Heimskr) he says:

Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter. I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you.'"

Note the bolded part.

Talos is telling them that he has achieved CHIM, as CHIM is the "secret syllable" of royalty, The word CHIM comes from the Old Ehlnofey meaning "royalty or high splendor"

So Talos actually uses the Voice (now that he was breathing in Royalty due to achieving CHIM) to quite literally use the Th"um to shout away the jungles and cooled Cyrodiil's climate so the land would be re-shaped.

It just seems when Talos done this, his change was retroactive due to CHIM as it allowed him to change the landscape across the entire timeline. its pretty fascinating to be honest.

Since Talos was breathing in royalty due to CHIM, this change was possible.

LadyNerevar

Carnagan wrote: »

If I'm completely honest, though, I have to admit that Redguard also killed my ability to worry about Elder Scrolls canon. After playing Daggerfall for a few years as a Khajiit and then opening Redguard and wondering "What the hell is that thing" onseeing S'Ratha and the Khajiit in the comic... You either mellow out and enjoy the ride or rage quit as your favourite game stops being the world you thought it was.

This is an important and rarely heard perspective. The changes in lore between Daggerfall and Redguard were the biggest ever in the series, because it was written by a whole new staff of writers, who wanted to make their own marks on the world. Not much of it was outright contradiction, I don't think (if only because Daggerfall didn't include all that much to contradict), but most of it was a total tonal shift. The games since then, even with the jungle debacle, have kept more or less to the design set forth by that early team. More in some parts than in others, but both Skyrim and ESO do more than just pay homage to the PGE.

Carnagan

woodsro wrote: »

About the Cyrodiil Jungle

Its commonly known that Talos turned Cyrodiil from a jungle to what it looks like in ESO and in the 3rd era Oblivion.

Um... no, it isn't. I just explained why there's no actual proof.

Talos achieved CHIM, this meant he was no longer bound by the rules or restraints of the universe including time. This means Talos changed the landscape of Cyrodiil across the ENTIRE TIMELINE including the past. (This makes sense, because achieving CHIM allows this to be possible)

Source that says he changed it across the entire timeline?

Because you're saying that he changed a jungle to a forest so that it was always a forest, except that there are remains of documents that record that it was a jungle and people remember it was a jungle so as to give that statement meaning and explain why it sticks around for another couple of centuries for Heimskr to know them and their significance. But still no one cares enough to write it down plainly.

Its also important to distinct that Talos also used the "Thu"um or "The Voice" in conjunction with CHIM which may have given his particular circumstances much more weight, and may be part of the reason why he sits at the top of the Pantheon now...As its always refer to as "The Eight and the One" or the "Eight became Nine" it is debatable that Talos supplanted Akatosh as the chief Divine, but thats a topic for another discussion not today.

I'll save the comment about the Thu'um for a bit, but Heimskr is the only person in three games of Divine Tiber Septim to claim that he has supplanted Akatosh. The Eight and The One is to describe the Hero-God Tiber Septim as part of the pantheon, and The Nine is to accept that he is a full Divine. There is no debate on whether or not Talos is now incharge of the Aedra.

Lastly, Mankar Cameron confirms that Talos did indeed change Cyrodiil with CHIM in his writings The Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes: Book 3

CHIM. Those who know it can reshape the land. Witness the home of the Red King Once Jungled. -Mankar Cameron - The Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes: Book 3

There is as much proof that Reman Cyrodiil was the Red King that Mankar was referring to as there is that it was Tiber Septim. More if anything. Cyrodiil was actually Reman Cyrodiil's home.

If you listen to Talos's Speech (Even Heimskr) he says:

Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter. I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you.'"

Note the bolded part.

From the Pocket Guide, note the bolded part.

"It is certain that the tale of Talos' conquest of the Cyrodiil through use of his voice is not literally true -- that kind of thu'um is now forbidden. The is all obviously a poetic reference, crafted to satisfy the popular human lust for blood and magic. This young myth is perhaps inspired by Talos' reputation for shrewd diplomacy, attested by even his greatest critics, which permitted him to scheme and bargain his way into the capital city - which he lacked the armies or funds to conquer by dint of force."

Which suggests that breathing, in royalty (since he was now emperor), was more likely about changing the land from war and chaos to peace with his words, by declaring laws and ruling.

Because, and this is the important part, he could not use his Thu'um anymore when he said this.

Also from the Pocket Guide.
"But from the smoldering ruin he came, one hand to his neck and with Cuhlecain's Crown in the other. The legions wept at the sight. His Northern magic had saved him, but the voice that led them would be more silent from that night on. His word could no longer rout an army with a roar, but he could still command one with a whisper. ..."

You've been very, very low on document proof at this point. So please show where a book or piece of dialogue clearly says that Tiber Septim used CHIM and his Thu'um to change Cyrodiil to a Jungle throughout all of time so that it was never a jungle but people remember that it was.