Why does this game insist on totally breaking the lore?

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

@woodsro
Sorry mate but who "wrote" the lore?

Because the majority of the Lore in the Imperial Library, is written by the fan base. Not by the person who created the ES lore.

When we delve more into Lores, Cannons and "Bibles" we look at the tree and miss the forest.

Enjoy the game for what it is. After all what you perceive as "Lore" is not written yet. in TESO era.

Reilech

Let me add this:

The souldbreak nullified the protection of the amulet. The dragonfires weren't lit since the first era ending. The group with the player are recreating the pact between Akatosh and men.

The Oblivion Gates in Tamriel are opened by mortals and their sacrifices. Every anchor does need blood. Molag Bal is not able to enter Nirn, there are just some minor Gates with some daedric troops. The most should be inside Cyrodiil-City.

About this jungle thing:
a) Talos after reaching CHIM changed Cyrodiil in all times or in all times with men ruling Cyrodiil.
b) The books overdrawed the amount of jungle in Cyrodiil and the last ones were chopped already for this or a previous war.

Don't forget, the borders of the land called Cyrodiil changed multiple times. Books and people of different times talk about different shapes of Cyrodiil.

Sighlynce

This is the most lore informative post I have ever read .. I bet the zos team that works on ESO had no idea at the time of their being assigned , how entwined in the very fabric of The Elder Scrolls story this fan base is .. Pretty awesome actually ..

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

emeraldbay wrote: »

ebondeath wrote: »

gurluasb16_ESO wrote: »

But yeah, it would have been easier to explain this if the mistakes weren't made in the first place. Even ESO exclusive books mention scholars from the 3rd era. And finally...Ayrenn's Dominion is not the same as the Racist Dominions.

Her Aldmeri Dominion is actually trying to be benevolent to other races and not dominant.

Except for that whole awkward Proprietary Academy thing.

You mean the part where the Veiled Heritance infiltrated the academy and used it to further their racist agenda? Yeah, that wasn't Ayrenn's fault.

Poor Ayrenn...all she wanted was to unite Tamriel under a single banner.

If you see the exchange between naemon and ayrenn in the last city where you kill estre, you really learn to hate ayrenn for what she has done. I still like her to some extent, but I never witnessed the exchange until I hung around with my orc after completing the quest.

She not only rips the crown from Naemon's hands (figuratively) even as he is in the very midst of preparing for rulership he took on because she decided to go on an unannounced vacation, but then, she has you murder his wife, and later some of his retainers. Yes I know they were traitors, but it's all rather dark and cruel that naemon goes through all this, yet he maintains his composure for a very long time.

It's a very sad conversation at that particular point, though the details are there over time as to what actually occurred when she up and decided to return.

For ayrenn, being queen is just another grand adventure. For naemon it was a duty. His wife was a genuine problem, and it makes one wonder how he didn't notice her being a daedric worshipping supremacist, but I personally think he would have been the better ruler.

I realize a lot of that is veering off topic, but really, any ruler that wants to take control of all the surrounding countries by force can't be particularly noble to begin with. So all of these people are pretty slimy, though perhaps that's just imposing modern day ethics.

tl;dr all these queens and kings are bad people in the grand scheme of things.

kimboh

stumpy999 wrote: »

Ease up Ripley; you've blown the transaxle. You're just grinding metal

@stumpy999‌ made me choke on my toasted sandwich.

+1 awesome.

Xnemesis

Just like all books they are an interpretation of man, and man is flawed! You will only hear of the convenient truths, riddled with embellishment.

Lord_Hev

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

... where elves rule over humanity. She might have wanted to unite Tamriel, but she didn't want humans as equals to elves.

Yes... she did. And on top of that, she's the most level-headed of the three faction leaders. And of all of them, she actually has bothered to interact with the various races in their home provinces.(drinking with Nords in Skyrim)


She makes it pretty clear she's vehemently against in-equal treatment based on race. No matter Mer or Man. No different than Talos "ruling" over Elvenkind... well... minus the massive atrocities and releasement of a giant God-Profaning anti-creation Bronze robotic Planet-shifting walking Tower, to wreak havoc on the land to accomplish his goals.

Lord_Draevan

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

... where elves rule over humanity. She might have wanted to unite Tamriel, but she didn't want humans as equals to elves.

Yes... she did. And on top of that, she's the most level-headed of the three faction leaders. And of all of them, she actually has bothered to interact with the various races in their home provinces.(drinking with Nords in Skyrim)

She makes it pretty clear she's vehemently against in-equal treatment based on race. No matter Mer or Man. No different than Talos "ruling" over Elvenkind... well... minus the massive atrocities and releasement of a giant God-Profaning anti-creation Bronze robotic Planet-shifting walking Tower, to wreak havoc on the land to accomplish his goals.

Yeah, Talos was a bit of a ***. Then again, so is Ayrenn's Dominion. See the Dominion forces murdering Argonian hatchlings at the Hatching Pools with the intent of making the species extinct using the Mnemic Egg.

Honestly, I see Ayrenn and Jorunn as equally level headed, and I thought Emeric was too... then he acted like an utter child at the Stirk meeting and it soured my opinion of him greatly.
"Why won't Jorunn and Ayrenn listen to me?"
"Well Emeric, maybe if you stopped referring to them as 'the Snow Barbarian' and 'the Adolescent Female' they'd be more inclined to speak to you. Go figure." -_-

aipex8_ESO

While I'm not as well versed in lore as the OP, I am pretty well read and I have to agree with Lord_Hev (less aggressively though ) that it's the Amulet of Kings and Dragonfires that form the barrier. The UESP article on the Towers is very different from the ESWikia article.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Towers

Having said that though, the thing that I love about TES lore (as apposed to the more "set in stone" lore of other fantasy worlds) is that it is written by fallible, in-game characters, and quite often books contradict each other or are proven false or at least written with bias. The fact that you can never be too sure about the lore makes it feel more real, like our own history. Written by the winners and all...

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

How old is naemon, I wonder, if ayrenn is 20, and he is her little brother.

If I were an elf, I wouldn't want rulers that young, maybe have a regent until they get to 100 or something.

Erlindur

I admit that I don't know much about TES lore but I wonder. In Skyrim, the elfs keep insisting that Talos was not a god. How do we know that they are not right and what we read in the books inside the game, was not simply Imperial propaganda? That makes the whole jungle thing, a simple myth.

Azzuria

All the Lore in Tamriel is questionable, at best. There is no written word, not even the Elder Scrolls themselves, that are 100% accurate. Transcription errors, lost or out-right revisionist history... The only things that are -known- are those things which we, as players, have done and even that is 100% certain because time is fluid and history mutable.

ESO is in a time of even greater historical upheaval. The past is more lost than usual, the present is utter chaos and the future is completely uncertain, hidden beneath the fog of war.

DragonLane555

To the OP good job putting this together you have done your research.

Unfortunately, you have fallen into the same way of thinking most people who study elder scrolls lore do at first. Thinking about the lore to rigidly.

The Elder scrolls lore is written to feel like lore in the real world. That is to say that there are lot of contradicting ideas each from the viewpoint of the individual writer. So with that said, nothing is written in stone unless you see it play out in game.

I mean just look at the origin of man. According to the elves, the story that was adopted by the Empire, man is a creation. However, if you look at pretty much any other races or groups origin stories, man, like the elves are descended from the first great spirits. They are either shown to be a type of Ehlnofey called the wanderers, or that they are just another kind of Mer, or even that they are the children of Shor and Kyne.

To make matters worse with the way time flows it is possible for multiple contradicting ideas about history to both be true. As seen with the Warp in the West.

In this case it seems that both are true. The towers are there to stabilize Nirn, which also creates a barrier between the mortal realm and oblivion. It should be noted, however, that the most powerful soul gem was used in a spell weaken that barrier. Furthermore Molog Bal is not trying to come to Nirn in full force. He is sending down his anchors through the weekend barrier to drag Nirn to Cold Harbor. Not exactly the same thing as an invasion.

On a side note, and this is just my interpretation. I think that the towers creating a barrier between the mortal realm and oblivion, is a side effect of them stabilizing Nirn. I mean if it's going to be its own realm doesn't it need to be separate from the other realms? But that was just something I thought of as I wrote this.

Anyway, always remember with Elder scrolls lore to think fluidly and not rigidly, because if you try it the other way you're only going to get a headache.

b92303008rwb17_ESO

Hats off to OP! I myself am not so familiar with all the lore but I do enjoy the epicness TES series has to offer. I think the discussion here is actually an encouragement to the lore team and tells them there are lots of people that really care about the lore.

RinaldoGandolphi

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Ok, first off.


The towers do NOTHING at all to prevent a Daedric invasion. P E R I O D.


Where you got this conclusion from, I do not know. but it is factually incorrect, and your "use" of it, as a counter, is a blatant misunderstanding of how the barrier works, and the purpose of the Towers.


The purpose of the Towers, is to keep Nirn up and running, like a spinning gear that keeps a contraption moving.

Your missing the point the Towers ARE the reason the Daedra haven't been able to invade Nirn.

Have you actually read the creation stories? When Mundas was formed, the Towers were erected to actually create a barrier in order to form Nirn inside of to begin with, and the Adamantine Tower being the first of many that was erected, these Towers carved out the area that would become Mundas that separated it from Oblivion.

According to you, There was no barrier prior to Alessia which means there was nothing stopping the Daedric Princes from invading Nirn outright like Dagon did during the Oblivion Crisis. We know thats not true, because if it was true, then the Daedric Princes would have invaded Nirn during the reign of the Ayleids and Tamriel wither would have been destroyed by Dagon, or ruled by another Daedric Prince.

As the Aedra can't "physically" manifest themselves in Tamriel because they gave up their bodies and a great potion of their power in order to create Nirn to begin with.

The Amulet of Kings
by Wenegrus Monhana

In the first years of the First Era, a powerful race of Elves called the Ayleids, or the Heartland High Elves, ruled central Tamriel with an iron hand. The high and haughty Ayleids relied on their patrons, the treacherous Daedra Lords, to provide armies of Daedra and dead spirits; with these fearless magical armies, the Ayleids preyed without mercy upon the young races of men, slaughtering or enslaving them at their whim.

On behalf of the suffering human races, St. Alessia, the first in the line of Cyrodiils, sought the aid of Akatosh, the Dragon God of Time, and ruler of the noble Aedra. Akatosh, looking with pity upon the plight of men, drew precious blood from his own heart, and blessed St. Alessia with this blood of Dragons, and made a Covenant: so long as Alessia's generations were true to the dragon blood, Akatosh would endeavor to seal tight the Gates of Oblivion and deny the armies of Daedra and undead to their enemies, the Daedra-loving Ayleids.

So as we see from the Book of the Amulet of Kings, The Akatosh Covenent DID NOT create the Barrier that seperates Nirn from Oblivion, what it did was Akatosh removed the ability for the Daedra to create permanent manifestations on Nirn and thus the Ayleids could not summon millions of permanent Daedra to make armies to use to prey on the races of men.

[from the Trials of St. Alessia]

Akatosh made a covenant with Alessia in those days so long ago. He gathered the tangled skeins of Oblivion, and knit them fast with the bloody sinews of his Heart, and gave them to Alessia, saying, 'This shall be my token to you, that so long as your blood and oath hold true, yet so shall my blood and oath be true to you. This token shall be the Amulet of Kings, and the Covenant shall be made between us, for I am the King of Spirits, and you are the Queen of Mortals. As you shall stand witness for all Mortal Flesh, so shall I stand witness for all Immortal Spirits.'

And Akatosh drew from his breast a burning handful of his Heart's blood, and he gave it into Alessia's hand, saying, 'This shall also be a token to you of our joined blood and pledged faith. So long as you and your descendants shall wear the Amulet of Kings, then shall this dragonfire burn -- an eternal flame -- as a sign to all men and gods of our faithfulness. So long as the dragonfires shall burn, to you, and to all generations, I swear that my Heart's blood shall hold fast the Gates of Oblivion.

Again the Trials of St. Alessia tells us that the Dragonfires prevent the Daedra from coming to Nirn on a permanent basis, it didn't create the Barriers.

If there was no barriers at all prior to the Alessian Pact, then there would have been nothing stopping Dagon from rolling in the Daedric Siege machines and leveling Nirn.

This is a topic that has been debated for years in the various lore forums, and even with Kirkbridge himself, and its been confirmed that the Towers created the barrier and maintain it..the Fact Dagon needed all 6 of them (including White Gold) de-activated in order to invade proves this point. If White-Gold Tower and the Amulet of Kings is the only barrier, then Dagon would have invaded long ago.

The Ayleids had no pact with Akatosh, and yet the Daedra couldn't invade outright...instead the Ayleids made deals with the Daedric Lords to summon permanent bindings for their armies, and the Daedra got the joy of wrecking havoc in some small way, if there was no barrier prior to Alessia Pact, the Daedra would not have needed the Ayleids to use magics to summon them to Nirn and would have destroyed them as well as Nirn....As Dagon is the Prince of Destruction all he does is destroy its his nature and sphere of influence...he is driven to destroy...he can't help himself or hold himself back. If there was no barrier before Alessia, then Nirn wouldn't exist....The Towers maintain the Barrier.

Monomyth
A theological book containing the common creation myths


Shezzar's Song

Now when the Daedra Lords heard Shezarr, they mocked him, and the other Aedra. "Cut parts of ourselves off? And lose them? Forever? That's stupid! You'll be sorry! We are far smarter than you, for we will create a new world out of ourselves, but we will not cut it off, or let it mock us, but we will make this world within ourselves, forever ours, and under our complete control."

So the Daedra Lords created the Daedric Realms, and all the ranks of Lesser Daedra, great and small. And, for the most part, the Daedra Lords were well pleased with this arrangement, for they always had and servants and playthings close to hand. But, at the same time, they sometimes looked with envy upon the Mortal Realms, for though mortals were foul and feeble and contemptible, their passions and ambitions were also far more surprising and entertaining than the antics of the Lesser Daedra. Thus do the Daedra Lords court and seduce certain amusing specimens of the Mortal Races, especially the passionate and powerful. It gives the Daedra Lords special pleasure to steal away from Shezarr and the Aedra the greatest and most ambitious mortals. "Not only are you fools to mutilate yourselves," gloat the Daedra Lords, "But you cannot even keep the best pieces, which prefer the glory and power of the Daedra Lords to the feeble vulgarity of the mush-minded Aedra."

So the Daedra Lords looked upon Mundas with jealousy and envy because of how fun men/mer were to toy and play with. They couldn't directly interfere in these affairs even back then, no they had to have mortals use summon rituals and magics bring some of their servents to Nirn. they had to make deals with mortals in order to be able to effect any kind of change on Mundas....this is proof the barrier existed before the Alessian Pact with Akatosh...all the Akatosh Pact did was made it impossible for the Daedra to be permantly bound and summoned on Nirn thus the Ayleids could no longer use them, and the Daedra has their influence diminished to some degree.

Long story short:

the Towers maintain the barrier between Nirn and Oblivion.

the Alessian pact prevents the Daedra from having any permanent manifestation on Nirn.

So in a way the White Gold Tower is unique, because if you took down every Tower except White-Gold, the Daedra would still not be able to stay on Nirn permanently due to the Alessian Pact....however if you took down White-Gold Tower and left the others, The Barrier would still be intact and too strong, and the Daedra would need to make pacts with mortals to summon them to Nirn where they would then be able to stay to make permanent change.

Aenra

it is 'their' lore you know, might escape you, but daddy company has rights on it for that very reason. They were the ones that wrote it in the first place. So..

personally i am only annoyed by the fact that (unlike SWTOR) certain names have been allowed to be used by players. Us.
Sotha Sil? And he's a templar, lol, not even a sorcerer..
there's another one named Mehrunes Razor..see what i mean?

To return to topic, if Zeni had to 'bend' things a little to give me this MMO, fair trade i think, but that is just me

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

Destruction leads to rebirth incidentally, so as far as daedric realms go it is not a bad thing. Also, I'm pretty sure mehrunes dagon can in fact control himself. That's his realm but he's not continuously compelled to destroy things everywhere or all the people who follow him would be blasted into oblivion immediately, as well as any daedric minions under his command and even his own pocket of oblivion.

DragonLane555

Erlindur wrote: »

I admit that I don't know much about TES lore but I wonder. In Skyrim, the elfs keep insisting that Talos was not a god. How do we know that they are not right and what we read in the books inside the game, was not simply Imperial propaganda? That makes the whole jungle thing, a simple myth.

That's a good question.

There are many things that point to Talos being a God.

1. In oblivion you need Divine Blood to enter Mankar Camoran's Paradise. The blood used is Talos’.

2. In The Elder Scrolls IV: Knights of the Nine the Blessing of Talos is what allows the player to follow Umaril the Unfeathered into the spirit world and destroy his very soul preventing him from being reborn in oblivion and returning again. The blessing also allows the player to return to his body afterwards, further evidence of Talos' divinity.

3. At the end of The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind, the player is met by an aging Imperial named Wulf, who bestows on him/her a power called "Favor of the Emperor." If Lalatia Varian is asked about this, she will tell the player that this is a manifestation of Talos; similar manifestations of Mara and Zenithar occur in the Imperial Cult quest line.

4. Tiber Septim is also not to be found in Sovngarde, alongside the other Nord heroes, during the Skyrim quest Sovngarde. This may further imply the claim that he became a god.

5. The Eight have never contradicted Talos' divinity. Also, when the Eight Divines speak on behalf of themselves they always speak of not Eight, but Nine.

Lastly, the Aldmeri Dominion in Skyrim seems to know that he is a God. You see their plan is to try to regain the godhood they believe the elves lost. To do this they plan on unmaking the world. The first step to this plan is to end the worship of Talos. Here is their plan.

“To kill Man is to reach Heaven, from where we came before the Doom Drum's iniquity. When we accomplish this, we can escape the mockery and long shame of the Material Prison. To achieve this goal, we must:
Erase the Upstart Talos from the mythic. His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane.
Remove Man not just from the world, but from the Pattern of Possibility, so that the very idea of them can be forgotten and thereby never again repeated.
With Talos and the Sons of Talos removed, the Dragon will become ours to unbind. The world of mortals will be over. The Dragon will uncoil his hold on the stagnancy of linear time and move as Free Serpent again, moving through the Aether without measure or burden, spilling time along the innumerable roads we once traveled. And with that we will regain the mantle of the imperishable spirit.”

ShedsHisTail

Azzuria wrote: »

All the Lore in Tamriel is questionable, at best. There is no written word, not even the Elder Scrolls themselves, that are 100% accurate. Transcription errors, lost or out-right revisionist history... The only things that are -known- are those things which we, as players, have done and even that is 100% certain because time is fluid and history mutable.

ESO is in a time of even greater historical upheaval. The past is more lost than usual, the present is utter chaos and the future is completely uncertain, hidden beneath the fog of war.

Yeah, I was going to mention this. The fact that 99% of the lore we know about the Elder Scrolls games comes from in-game books and characters lends a significant margin of error to pretty much everything. Consider the real-world equivalents; the various ancient texts and the way author amend or embellish what may have actually been historical events in order to push their own agenda or validate their own opinion of how things happened.

In a certain sense, the fact that these lore sources -aren't- always correct gives the game lore a level of realism rarely found in fantasy literature. There is no, "This happened." level of lore in this game outside of what we, the player, actually witness... And even that differs as we each experience the game and it's world differently.

The bulk of the lore books we encounter are scribed long after the events contained therein took place meaning there is enormous amounts of room for author error, mythical embellishment, and so on. Take the story of Talos and the transformation of Cyrodiil (since that keeps coming up). That could simply be a matter of, "This area was jungle once, now it's not, lets attribute that to Talos; that will make him sound really good, which is my intention as an author writing a book glorifying Talos."

Another point I wanted to mention, and I think it's noteworthy, is the issue of the Amulet of Kings and Molag Bal's "invasion" of Nirn. As some have mentioned, even when the barrier was intact and the Dragonfire lit, it was possible to summon daedra in small numbers. What's interesting about Molag bal's "invasion" is that, other than the very few random small portals here and there, any daedra arriving on Nirn -still- have to be summoned. Even the Dark Anchors require not only a mortal constructed ritual site, but a whole slew of worshipers performing a ritual in order to call it down. They can't -appear- like Oblivion Gates did, they have to be built and activate by mortals; and that's an important distinction.

In fact, I'd posit that despite the violation of the pact with Akatosh, the barrier between planes is still very much in tact, with maybe a few small holes here an there. Which brings me to my next round of thought, and that's the issue of Molag Bal's "invasion." I think it's worth noting that Molag Bal -isn't- invading; he's actively trying to merge the Planes by pulling Nirn into Coldharbor. This, too, I think indicates that the Barrier is still in place and stronger than we've been led to believe. Leave it to the Lord of Schemes to find a loophole, am I right?

Speculation: if the Planemeld is successful, ideally the two Planes would become a single realm, perhaps even protected by Akatosh from the meddling of other Daedra?

We also can't ignore mannimarco's part in all this and what -his- motives might be. Assuming he out-schemed the Lord of Schemes, a successful Planemeld would put -him- in control of a fully protected realm of his very own.

Enodoc

woodsro wrote: »

So in a way the White Gold Tower is unique, because if you took down every Tower except White-Gold, the Daedra would still not be able to stay on Nirn permanently due to the Alessian Pact....however if you took down White-Gold Tower and left the others, The Barrier would still be intact and too strong, and the Daedra would need to make pacts with mortals to summon them to Nirn where they would then be able to stay to make permanent change.

@woodsro On that note, we know that Mannimarco/Varen broke the Covenant and knocked out White-Gold, and two or three other towers are down (Brass has no Stone, Orichalc is gone, Green-Sap (if it is Falinesti) is missing), as opposed to five for Dagon, so I think the Soulburst is valid. Molag Bal still needs the cultists on Nirn to summon the Dark Anchors and the other Coldharbour daedra; they still don't seem to be able to manifest by themselves, so the protection of the remaining towers is still there.

Edit to respond to ShedsHisTail:

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Another point I wanted to mention, and I think it's noteworthy, is the issue of the Amulet of Kings and Molag Bal's "invasion" of Nirn. As some have mentioned, even when the barrier was intact and the Dragonfire lit, it was possible to summon daedra in small numbers. What's interesting about Molag bal's "invasion" is that, other than the very few random small portals here and there, any daedra arriving on Nirn -still- have to be summoned. Even the Dark Anchors require not only a mortal constructed ritual site, but a whole slew of worshipers performing a ritual in order to call it down. They can't -appear- like Oblivion Gates did, they have to be built and activate by mortals; and that's an important distinction.

In fact, I'd posit that despite the violation of the pact with Akatosh, the barrier between planes is still very much in tact, with maybe a few small holes here an there. Which brings me to my next round of thought, and that's the issue of Molag Bal's "invasion." I think it's worth noting that Molag Bal -isn't- invading; he's actively trying to merge the Planes by pulling Nirn into Coldharbor. This, too, I think indicates that the Barrier is still in place and stronger than we've been led to believe. Leave it to the Lord of Schemes to find a loophole, am I right?

Indeed. Good point that.

RinaldoGandolphi

Ok, I have said my piece I think,

I want to leave this open for anyone who wishes to add to it or refute as thats their right to do so.

I want to thank everyone for their constructive comments, I wasn't meaning to come across as agressive in my OP, that wasn't my intent at all.

My intent was to get a level headed, legitimate lore discussion started here, and that was a resounding sucess!!!!!

May this will get the lore team to improve the game and improve the story, and that can only be a good thing.

We can all have our opinions on the Towers, I don't want that to become a wedge that divides us all, thats party of the beauty of TES, and the Tower theory has been debated for years, and its some of the most interesting disuccsions.

I have actually learned a few things from this thread myself, so we can all take something positive away from this.

thanks again, a great thread like this is only possible because of us TES fans and this community! So Kudos to you! perhaps this will help draw some positive attention

OtarTheMad

Nice thread man, grats on knowing that much and it's nice to see some players in the game know Elder Scrolls lore.

I always understood the barrier that keeps Daedra out as the Amulet of Kings plus the Dragonfires. That would explain how the Soulburst was possible but that was just my understanding of it.

Cropsford is a stretch like someone else mentioned but it is entirely possible, maybe a descendant of one of the villagers in ESO helped found and build the new town... naming it the same as an honor to them. Towns and cities are always tough... for an example Windhelm's architecture is different in this game than it is in Skyrim and for the lore to make sense you would have to think that the city was completely destroyed between the end of this era and the 4th era because in Skyrim it looks more like an ancient Nordic Barrow kind of like Labytinthian but in ESO looks more like it's almost Akaviri style or something.

Also you got to see what Lost Tongue Overlook and Forelhost look like in the past but where are the word walls? Plus do you think for a race obsessed with the Companions and Ysgramor that the Nords would Fallowstone Hall just fall apart and be pretty much gone by fourth era? I think they did a good job explaining how it came to be made and it fit in with what the 500 did after they fought the Snow Elfs but they made it a really big area and I fail to see how the Nords would let it vanish when Ysgramor, the 500 and the Companions are like Gods to them. (Maybe some of those are just me though)

Not to mention the disappointment that so far you have no Snow Elven ruins in the two areas of Skyrim we see. I understand they are a forgotten elf race by this game but Ayleid and Dwemer are all dead and they have rather well intact ruins... so why not Snow Elfs? Is Bethesda saving them for a future game made by them?

I will say that they did a good job explaining (or hinting) how to get to Skuldafn without flying as it seems the tunnel simply caved in cause as you enter Skuldafn in Skyrim you do see what looks like a Nordic Barrow completely buried under snow. Plus it seems they are expanding on how the Dragon Cult worked and how many Dragon Priests they truly had. Got to take the good with the bad, although more bad so far but it's still early... and honestly... not that "bad" so far either.

RinaldoGandolphi

@Endoc thats a very good point...the Daedric Anchors do make sense now that you think about it....The Barriers are still there(due to the Towers still being up), but they need mortals to make pacts and deal with them in order to summon them(How it was before the Alessian Pact)...and they can stay permanently because the Akatosh Pact isn't in effect due to the dragonfires not being lit.....

This right here is what I am looking for!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It fits! perfect!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This right here is the reason I love these discussions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All of us talking as a group just made the pieces fit together....we can now lore speaking, call the Soulburst canon...its fits with the existing lore.

Bravo to you for filling in what was in front of my face the whole time!

I owe you a drink my friend!

helzehen

Serious amount of knowledge on the subject, game devs will love and hate you lol

KariTR

Lord_Hev wrote: »

KariTR wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Ok, first off.

[Snip]

This has been an interesting and civil discussion, there is really no need to be so aggressively condescending.

Sorry, the OP's first post was quite condescending as well. And assertively aggressive. But yes, I should not have reacted in such a tone as well. I apologize for that.

Giving you an awesome for that.

As for the OP's first post, he opened a discussion, he wasn't having a poke at anyone and he did concede to points made in the responses. But I can see how some may have seen it as condescending....you academics eh?

dsalter

woodsro wrote: »

This is something that has been bugging me since launch, and I have kept my mouth shut about it, but discovering the town of Cropsford was the final straw for me and i can't be silent no longer.

This game has pretty much gone totally against all the lore that is cannon. Lets get started and set the record straight:

1. Why the Soul Burst couldn't happen

1. Alduin's Wall - Alduin's Wall was constructed by the Akaviri Dragonguard in the 1st era 2812 (written before the events of TESO). Alduin's Wall makes prophecies about the coming of Alduin's Return, Those prophecies are.

1. When misrule takes its place at the eight corners of the world - This is referring to TES:Arena when Jagar Tharn impersonated Uriel Septim VII using the Staff of Chaos while imprisoning the Real Emperor during the Imperial Simulacrum. The Destruction of the Staff of Chaos slightly weakened the barrier between Nirn and Oblivion.

2. When the Brass Tower walks and Time is reshaped -This is refering to the events of TES:Daggerfall and the return of Numindium (which is a tower) and the Dragon Breaking of Time known as the "Warp In the West" The Numindium completely disappears thus signaling the deactivation of the Brass Tower and the weakening of the seal between Oblivion and Nirn.

3. When the thrice-blessed fail and the Red Tower trembles - This refers to the Tribunal of Morrowind Alamlexia, Vivec, and Sotha Sil losing their powers to Dagoth Ur and later being killed, and the Destruction of the Heart of Lorkhan. This event de-activated the Red Tower. It also predicts the Ministry of Truth, that was being held in place by magical means, crashing into Vicec City causing Red Mountain to erupt destroying most of Morrowind.

4. When the Dragonborn Ruler loses his throne, and the White Tower falls - This predicts Uriel Septim VII being Assassinated by the Mythic Dawn, and the Septim Dynasty dieing out with the death of Martin Septim. It also predicts the Dragonfires not being lit.

It also predicts the de-activation of the White Gold Tower with the Destruction of the Amulet of Kings (Which Martin Septim Destroyed the Amulet of Kings, and used its power inside to become the Avatar of the Dragon God Akatosh himself to do Battle with Mehrunes Dagon who had came to Tamriel to destroy all of Nirn...after a raging battle between the Giant Mehrunes Dagon and the Flaming Dragon God Akatosh, Akatosh finally defeated Dagon and sent him back to Oblivion...at the cost of the destruction of the Amulet of Kings, and the ending of the Dragonborn Septim Dynasty.

5. When the Snow Tower lies sundered, kingless, bleeding - This refers to the Civil War in the Events of the 4th era. Ulfric Stormcloak killed the High King, the land is sundered(split apart by war), and bleeding (brothers and sisters killing one another)

Skyrim is the Snow Tower, or the Snow Tower Exists in Skyrim think The Throat of The World. It also refers to the time-wound on the Throat of the World where the 1st tongues(Hakon, Gormlaith, and Feldir) sent Alduin Adrift in time.

6. The World-Eater wakes, and the Wheel turns upon the Last Dragonborn. This one is self explanatory, the Last Dragonborn appears right around the the time Alduin returns.

So just going by Alduin's Wall, the Soulburst couldn't happen, BUT thats not the only reason why...the Primary Reason is "THE TOWERS"

All over Tamriel are special towers, the most Famous being the Adamantine Tower and the White Gold Tower....These towers have a special purpose, and that purpose is keeping a barrier Between Nirn and Oblivion.

The White Gold Tower in Cyrodiil became the most popular due to its central location, and it being the seat of the Empire (St. Alessia and Remen), The Amulet of Kings is a small part of the equation, as it keeps the White Gold Tower functioning, but its NOT the only tower protecting Tamriel.

During the times leading up to the Oblivion Crisis, the Red, Brass, Orichalc, and Green Sap towers, had been de-activiated. During the Oblivion Crisis, Dagon attacked Alinor/Summerset Isles and destroyed the Crystal-like-Law Tower as the final piece he needed make the barrier weak enough to allow him to come to Tamriel.

This also confirmed in Kirkbrides lore writings for the game(leading up to Oblivion, read the letters to Chancellor Ocato in the months leading up to the Oblivion Crisis)

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/nu-mantia-intercept

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/The_Towers

So Mehrunes Dagon, who is the 6th most powerful entity in TES Universe, only eclipsed by Talos, Akatosh, Trinimac, Jygalaag, and Shor needed 5 of the towers de-activated just so he could open Oblivion Gates, and needed 6 of them de-activated in order to come to Nirn, yet Molag Bal only needs 1 tower(White Gold) de-activated before he can use Daedric Anchors to try and pull Nirn though the barrier?...right.....The Soulburst simply couldn't happen, too many of the Towers are still functional.

2. The Cyrodiil in TESO is wholly inaccurate

Cyrodiil did NOT look the way it does in Oblivion and TESO until Talos Ascended and used the power of CHIM and the Voice to transform Cyrodiil from a junge to what it looks like today.

Cyrodiil, Dragon Empire, Starry Heart of Nirn, and Seat of Sundered Kings... Indeed, if the history of the Nords is the history of humans on Tamriel, then Cyrodiil is the throne from which they will decide their destiny. It is the largest region of the continent, and most is endless jungle. - Pocket Guide To The Empire First Edition

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/pocket-guide-empire-first-edition-cyrodiil

They tried to say its a "Transcription error" but thats a load of Hogwash, as if you listen to Talos's Speech he tells us how he transforms Cyrodiil from a Jungle:

From the Many Headed Talos

"And after the throne of Alinor did finally break at the feet of Men, and news of it came to the Dragon Emperor in Cyrodiil, he gathered his captains and spoke to them, saying:

"'You have suffered for me to win this throne, and I see how you hate jungle. Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter. I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you.'"

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/many-headed-talos

Fire Up The Elder Scrolls Skyrim, go to Whiterun and listen to Heimskr, a Preist of Talos, as he preaches in front of the Shrine of Talos, and listen to him. The same line I quoted above is also quoted in game in Skyrim.

Cyrodiill WAS A JUNGLE DURING THE INTERREGNUM PERIOD OF TAMRIEL'S HISTORY.

It was not transformed into what it looks like in TESO (Oblivion) Until Talos sscended becoming the God of Man, and used the power of the CHIM and the Voice to transform Cyrodiil into the beautiful country it is.

The over-abundance of 3rd and 4th era books in this game

Just check your nearest bookshelf, the game is full of books that haven't been written yet, such as Ruminations of the Elder Scrolls by Septimus Signus(4th era), Last King of the Ayleids by Hermma Cinna (3rd era), many others which I won't list because it will make this thread too long, as its already too long as it is...Fact is most of the books you find in this game haven't even been written yet, and their authors haven't even been born yet....but who cares! right?

Cropsford

Oh Cropsford, oh beautiful Cropsford, I love you so! The only problem is YOU HAVEN'T EVEN BEEN FOUNDED YET!

The Town of Cropsford wasn't even founded until the 3rd era when the Champion of Cyrodiil drove away the Goblin tribes allowing the town's founders to settle the town and get it started....so why is the town even in the game? Are we all under the influence of some really good Skooma, and thats how we explain why a town exists that hasn't been founded yet, and the founders of the town haven't even been born yet?

It makes me wonder what they are going to do to the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild...at this time in lore, the Dark Brotherhood and the Morag Tong are at each others throats carrying out a waging war of assassination and murder in the shadows unknown to the people much like the Lycan vs Vampire feud of Underworld that went on for centuries without the humans finding out about it.

Queen Ayreen started the 3 Banners Wars and thrusted Tamriel into conflict due to her believing men have no right to rule, when the Empire, was the 1st fair rulership Tamriel has had since the Elves were overtrown. (As fair as fair could be considering the Empire accepted the Orcs, and was the only institution to grant the Orcs equal membership, citizenship status, and actually treated them fairly) Elven rule was nothing but enslaving the men, beastfolk, and Orcs.

This explains Talos contempt for the Aldmeri Dominion, as Talos was born in the High Rock Kingdom of Alcaire under the name Hjaliti-Early Beard.

Conclusion

I like this game. I enjoy playing it. However, I can no longer read any of the in-game lore books, nor really read anything thats laying around because it all pretty much breaks legitimate cannonized lore, which is a shame.

Zenimax had a whole time period where they were free to write their own lore, their own story, and instead chose to put 3rd and 4th era books in the game, and design the game and history in straight contradiction to what the lore dictates. It actually saddens me.

Regardless, I will continue to play for now and hope that Zenimax can correct some of these glaring problems in the future. I know this is a long post, but its how i feel about the game and lore...right now TESO just completely breaks established lore when there was no reason for them to do so, as they had a whole time period where they could have wrote their own and chose not to. [/quote]

one thing your forgetting, this time period is a mystory as you'v pointed out, for all we know the knowledge hording daedra that is hermeas mora might have kept all that was known of this time period and let small visions and glimpses of it out further in time. those righters? maybe he inspired them. the cropsford founders? what if he gave them a vision to know exactly where to put it. the soul burst? why do so few people in the future know of it?

the era itself is a mystery

Natjur

ESO is in a parallel universe where events happened a little different.

There problem solved

Celenaro

OP, none of the points you listed are lore breaking. All of them have ready explanations, as other people in this thread have pointed out. However there are some lore breaks in-game that really do rustle my jimmies. The biggest being that the Chimer that appear in game are clearly Dunmer when they should be indistinguishable from Altmer.

AoEnwyr

I guess I look at it from this perspective: Which of our current civilizations has entirely accurate and consistent documentation about their own history? Apply this to the current major religions as well. What you will see is a history full of contradictions. This game is set about 1000 years before Morrowind, I believe, so think of the last 1000 years of our history and how clear we are on exactly everything that happened.

The point made about Cyrodiil is valid though. Landscape can change over time but in ESO is seems to be more of a grassy plain rather than having the lush vegetation seen in Oblivion.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

Natjur wrote: »

ESO is in a parallel universe where events happened a little different.

There problem solved

no, that has never been stated by the devs at any point. It is the same universe.