Justice System impact on Provisioning skill and motif/recipe farming? ZOS please help with answer...

zhevon

Just two main points here -

There should have never been motif/recipe farming in towns anyway - but now that we are accustomed to having easy access to motifs and recipes and always using health/food items it will be a adjustment problem going to what it should have been all along. This is of-course assuming they plan to do this.

But having said that motifs/recipes should have been dropping from mobs all along. I don't think I have ever had a motif or recipe drop from a mob; its always been from containers of some flavor. Mobs and containers in the "wild"should have always been dropping these materials.

I am a bit concerned that their will be issues with accidently stealing when this thing first starts because we have been programed to loot containers, but it might be fun with people running autolooter mods during the first few days.

yarnevk

babylon wrote: »

Well the ZOS employee who posted immediately after being questioned on this point indicated that ZOS was looking at what effects this would have, and waiting to see how it pans out on the test server. So yes ZOS is still finalising the details here.

Which is a huge mistake because it is well known that those who participate in PTS are looking for ways to exploit the game for their own benefit rather than for reporting bugs and misfeatures. All those wanting open world PVP are jumping for joy about this very feature because ganking PVErs who have no intent to be involved in PVP is exactly what they want, there is no need to wait and see what happens because it happens in every game if they are given the chance. The stink needs to be made now because if it goes on PTS it WILL go to LIVE.

PVP should be a character optin at login screen (with timers so that it cannot be abused by going in/out PVP) and not something that is part of a crafting profession. Sneaking only improves your odds to not get caught as it has been in every TES game. Since it requires only a simple comment that indeed sneaking is the optin to PVP they would have said it by now, so it is pretty clear that stealing is stealing (with punishments equivalent to murder) regardless of stance. But even sneak optin is not a good solution because PVE stealing is a big attraction of TES, and many thieves have no desire to get involved in PVP. Let me escape from prison just like every TES game, but do not force me in front of the gank squads.

What is clear is that the designers who came from a PVP focused MMO rather than a PVE MMO think it is not a problem. However ESO has been designed from the start that you need to loot containers near NPC to support provisioning, it was not designed as a thievery side game like it is in TES. If armorers had to go into Cyrodil for mats there would be just as much an uproar amongst PVErs with full support from PVPers that want a victim rather than a competitor.

In Skyrim I do not have some sociopath in a guard uniform camping to gank me, I just get a guard wanting coin for sweetrolls that needs paid off occasionally if he wanders in my area and wonders why the merchant has a bucket on their head. Unlike Skyrim gold sinks are real in ESO and I cannot afford to be a provisioner and to be paying off the guards. It is not the same thing to do it the same way because this is not a single player game.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

yarnevk wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Well the ZOS employee who posted immediately after being questioned on this point indicated that ZOS was looking at what effects this would have, and waiting to see how it pans out on the test server. So yes ZOS is still finalising the details here.

Which is a huge mistake because it is well known that those who participate in PTS are looking for ways to exploit the game for their own benefit rather than for reporting bugs and misfeatures. All those wanting open world PVP are jumping for joy about this very feature because ganking PVErs who have no intent to be involved in PVP is exactly what they want, there is no need to wait and see what happens because it happens in every game if they are given the chance. The stink needs to be made now because if it goes on PTS it WILL go to LIVE.

PVP should be a character optin at login screen (with timers so that it cannot be abused by going in/out PVP) and not something that is part of a crafting profession. Sneaking only improves your odds to not get caught as it has been in every TES game. Since it requires only a simple comment that indeed sneaking is the optin to PVP they would have said it by now, so it is pretty clear that stealing is stealing (with punishments equivalent to murder) regardless of stance. But even sneak optin is not a good solution because PVE stealing is a big attraction of TES, and many thieves have no desire to get involved in PVP. Let me escape from prison just like every TES game, but do not force me in front of the gank squads.

What is clear is that the designers who came from a PVP focused MMO rather than a PVE MMO think it is not a problem. However ESO has been designed from the start that you need to loot containers near NPC to support provisioning, it was not designed as a thievery side game like it is in TES. If armorers had to go into Cyrodil for mats there would be just as much an uproar amongst PVErs with full support from PVPers that want a victim rather than a competitor.

In Skyrim I do not have some sociopath in a guard uniform camping to gank me, I just get a guard wanting coin for sweetrolls that needs paid off occasionally if he wanders in my area and wonders why the merchant has a bucket on their head. Unlike Skyrim gold sinks are real in ESO and I cannot afford to be a provisioner and to be paying off the guards. It is not the same thing to do it the same way because this is not a single player game.

PTS server is public now. You could log on and report the bugs yourself when it goes up on there. That was only a problem when it was accessible by just a few people.

if you steal you get a 5g bounty, not enough, most likely to become open pvp, and you can pay this to a guard when confronted (though you will lose the items.) You won't be forced to pvp and all us supposed griefers won't attack you.

Stealing from containers has always been a thing in TES. Most likely they just didn't have time to implement the justice system, so they couldn't put it in. The game occasionally has to change to improve, even if you don't like the change.

Maybe try it out on pts.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Inappropriate comments]

kitsinni

Since we are getting all worked up about how something might be after something in the future happens .. aliens might land on Earth and enslave us all .. the terror!

yarnevk

I will disregard your personal comments that should have not been made and have been reported.

But will point out that even paying 5g to a guard as a tax to avoid PVP destroys the viability of the provisioning profession, simply because the game was designed that provisioning loot is found primarily in towns next to NPC. Which is why you are so gleeful about this change is indeed that it will force provisioners to risk PVP to be viable at their craft, but forced choice is not opt-in. All the merchants sell inferior goods because of game design to promote crafted and found goods, so buying provisions is not viable either.

I am absolutely fine with PVE thieving in thieves guild questlines that does not involve PVP but does involve paying off guards or going to prison. But this changes forces provisioners to be thieves and be subject to PVP to be viable, despite other games and polls showing that those desiring open world PVP are nothing more than the truly vocal 10% minority.

kitsinni

yarnevk wrote: »

I will disregard your personal comments that should have not been made and have been reported.

But will point out that even paying 5g to a guard as a tax to avoid PVP destroys the viability of the provisioning profession, simply because the game was designed that provisioning loot is found primarily in towns next to NPC. Which is why you are so gleeful about this change is indeed that it will force provisioners to risk PVP to be viable at their craft, forced choice is not opt-in.

How exactly do you know they won't have something like a Garden node where you can pick some tomatoes?

vyndral13preub18_ESO

yarnevk wrote: »

I will disregard your personal comments that should have not been made and have been reported.

But will point out that even paying 5g to a guard as a tax to avoid PVP destroys the viability of the provisioning profession, simply because the game was designed that provisioning loot is found primarily in towns next to NPC. Which is why you are so gleeful about this change is indeed that it will force provisioners to risk PVP to be viable at their craft, but forced choice is not opt-in. All the merchants sell inferior goods because of game design to promote crafted goods, so buying provisions is not viable either.

It is also true that provisioning is by far the easiest profession in the game to level. It is almost like they had the justice system in mind all along, but since it didn't get done in time for launch, provisioning turned out way to easy.

theyancey

yarnevk wrote: »

I will disregard your personal comments that should have not been made and have been reported.

But will point out that even paying 5g to a guard as a tax to avoid PVP destroys the viability of the provisioning profession, simply because the game was designed that provisioning loot is found primarily in towns next to NPC. Which is why you are so gleeful about this change is indeed that it will force provisioners to risk PVP to be viable at their craft, but forced choice is not opt-in. All the merchants sell inferior goods because of game design to promote crafted and found goods, so buying provisions is not viable either.

I am absolutely fine with PVE thieving in thieves guild questlines that does not involve PVP but does involve paying off guards or going to prison. But this changes forces provisioners to be thieves and be subject to PVP to be viable, despite other games and polls showing that those desiring open world PVP are nothing more than the truly vocal 10% minority.

You certainly have an "agree" from me. I am 100% a solo PvE player who is a lvl 45 dual wield templar and a lvl 50 provisioner. I am sooo screwed!

yarnevk

kitsinni wrote: »

How exactly do you know they won't have something like a Garden node where you can pick some tomatoes?

Because they would have said at QuakeCon yes provisioning is going to be impacted so here are farm/housing that you can own so that you can grow your own for your own kitchen (like Skyrim/Housefire). The obviously did not do that, so stop theory/apologizing here, in fact they have said player ownership is not even on their long term schedule. They only showed things that are near PTS release, and what they showed will impact provisioning.

The simple fact is that the majority of provisioning loot is found in towns next to the watchful eye of NPC, and player farms/house do not exist. This is not about it being the easiest thing to level for it is one of the most difficult to master, as it is about finding the blue/purple recipes and rare ingredients after you leveled and that requires vast quantities of lousy throwaway food from looting the towns repeatedly.

Even a better suggestion of looting only friendly towns would mean you cannot loot until you complete all the quests, which diminishes the amount provisioning can still get because you cannot do it while questing.

KariTR

theyancey wrote: »

yarnevk wrote: »

I will disregard your personal comments that should have not been made and have been reported.

But will point out that even paying 5g to a guard as a tax to avoid PVP destroys the viability of the provisioning profession, simply because the game was designed that provisioning loot is found primarily in towns next to NPC. Which is why you are so gleeful about this change is indeed that it will force provisioners to risk PVP to be viable at their craft, but forced choice is not opt-in. All the merchants sell inferior goods because of game design to promote crafted and found goods, so buying provisions is not viable either.

I am absolutely fine with PVE thieving in thieves guild questlines that does not involve PVP but does involve paying off guards or going to prison. But this changes forces provisioners to be thieves and be subject to PVP to be viable, despite other games and polls showing that those desiring open world PVP are nothing more than the truly vocal 10% minority.

You certainly have an "agree" from me. I am 100% a solo PvE player who is a lvl 45 dual wield templar and a lvl 50 provisioner. I am sooo screwed!

We are all L50 provisioners. Heck my first character wasn't out of Auridon when she maxed her craft.

No offence to you or Yarnevk or anyone else in this thread who feels they won't be able to find their ingredients once the Justice system is in place but: You all need to get out more. And no, I am not talking about real life - though who would have thought it would actually apply to a game world too!

My provisions are collected out in the wilds while I adventure and I leave more behind than I pick up. Provisions can also be supplemented by the Guild Store. This really isn't going to be a big deal. Plus in a role-play environment, it is far more beneficial for our wrong-doings to have consequences. This is a good thing.

Alphashado

yarnevk wrote: »

I will disregard your personal comments that should have not been made and have been reported.

But will point out that even paying 5g to a guard as a tax to avoid PVP destroys the viability of the provisioning profession, simply because the game was designed that provisioning loot is found primarily in towns next to NPC. Which is why you are so gleeful about this change is indeed that it will force provisioners to risk PVP to be viable at their craft, but forced choice is not opt-in. All the merchants sell inferior goods because of game design to promote crafted and found goods, so buying provisions is not viable either.

I am absolutely fine with PVE thieving in thieves guild questlines that does not involve PVP but does involve paying off guards or going to prison. But this changes forces provisioners to be thieves and be subject to PVP to be viable, despite other games and polls showing that those desiring open world PVP are nothing more than the truly vocal 10% minority.

You guys have absolutely ZERO evidence to support your concern. All I see is mass panic based on rampant speculation about an unreasonable suspicion.

"Once the Justice System is released, we will make sure that Provisioning is adjusted to ensure you don't need to be thieves in order to participate meaningfully in the tradeskill."

Seems pretty clear to me.

grimjim398

I have watched the video and don't see any evidence that crouching will act as an off/on switch for the justice system. That's speculation and nothing more. Stating that this is what you think will happen is fine, but some of you guys are talking about this as if you have read some official documentation somewhere and of course that's not possible since there isn't any. In my opinion it's not at all likely that stealth will be used that way.

It's useless to argue the point because we would simply be trading opinions. People will believe what they want to believe; they always do, until a fact hits them in the face. And the fact has to hit pretty hard to make an impact.

There's nothing anybody can say that will stop paranoia about provisioning until the revamp happens and the justice system comes online.

My only reason for posting is to counteract the people who are posting so confidently that the system has to work the way they think it will because only that way makes sense. Do NOT rely on the notion that looting while standing will make you safe because it is NOT in any way a fact.

yarnevk

KariTR wrote: »

My provisions are collected out in the wilds while I adventure and I leave more behind than I pick up.

You mean all the foreign food found in enemy camps that you have no bank space for and cannot use because you find no foreign recipes? There is very little viable provisioner loot out in the wild, compared to what is in town, and again this is not leveling up which is easy, it is about finding rares. There are even more bookshelves than there are provisions in dungeons. Provisioning was designed from the start that provisioning is supported by towns. I have yet to see anyone from ZOS talk about how they are redesigning provisioning to not require being thieves, all they have said is food in towns is now going to be stealing.

All this thread is asking for is an official response before they go any further with the thieving PVP system they have shown, no 'adjustments' after release it needs to be redesigned NOW because we all know it takes months for them to 'adjust'. If people want to play risk reward crafting PVP games, there are niche games out there, but the ESO forum polls have made it abundantly clear that they do not want it in ESO, even though you would not know it from the vocal minority posters who make it sound like PVP risked crafting is a good thing everyone wants if they would just try.

The already took months to 'fix' VR when they 'discovered' that the majority of the gamers that came from TES do not want forced grouping outside of dungeons, how long do you think it will take them to 'discover' and 'fix' provisioning after they break it. So they best not waste anytime on 'try it you might like it' when it comes to the topic of PVP to craft.

Enkil

1. There is provisioning loot in dungeons
2. There is unowned provisioning loot in towns and on docks
3. If you take a shopkeepers goods, no matter if it's just ingredients, you are STEALING. They have a family to feed, you know....
4. Looting containers it not meant to be mindless, have you played an Elder Scrolls game before?
5. It might be helpful to request that tomatoes, wheat and other ingredients that are very common respawning lootable items be added to the world before Justice system is added

vyndral13preub18_ESO

yarnevk wrote: »

KariTR wrote: »

My provisions are collected out in the wilds while I adventure and I leave more behind than I pick up.

You mean all the foreign food found in enemy camps that you have no bank space for and cannot use because you find no foreign recipes? There is very little viable provisioner loot out in the wild, compared to what is in town, and again this is not leveling up which is easy, it is about finding rares. There are even more bookshelves than there are provisions in dungeons. Provisioning was designed from the start that provisioning is supported by towns. I have yet to see anyone from ZOS talk about how they are redesigning provisioning to not require being thieves, all they have said is food in towns is now going to be stealing.

All this thread is asking for is an official response before they go any further with the thieving PVP system they have shown, no 'adjustments' after release it needs to be redesigned NOW because we all know it takes months for them to 'adjust'. If people want to play risk reward crafting PVP games, there are niche games out there, but the ESO forum polls have made it abundantly clear that they do not want it in ESO, even though you would not know it from the vocal minority posters who make it sound like PVP risked crafting is a good thing everyone wants if they would just try.

The already took months to 'fix' VR when they 'discovered' that the majority of the gamers that came from TES do not want forced grouping outside of dungeons, how long do you think it will take them to 'discover' and 'fix' provisioning after they break it. So they best not waste anytime on 'try it you might like it' when it comes to the topic of PVP to craft.

What is strange is you just seem to use whatever argument fits you case the best. For example you keep repeating over and over that they shouldn't make the change since provisioning was designed with out. You even say designed from the start That way. Fine.

Then you tear into VR content. Which was working in exactly they way it was designed from the start. But it was ok to change because you didn't like it.

Why don't you just stop making up arguments and say i don't like the idea that i might have to steal some ingredients.

grimjim398

[/quote]

All this thread is asking for is an official response before they go any further with the thieving PVP system they have shown, no 'adjustments' after release it needs to be redesigned NOW because we all know it takes months for them to 'adjust'. If people want to play risk reward crafting PVP games, there are niche games out there, but the ESO forum polls have made it abundantly clear that they do not want it in ESO, even though you would not know it from the vocal minority posters who make it sound like PVP risked crafting is a good thing everyone wants if they would just try.

The already took months to 'fix' VR when they 'discovered' that the majority of the gamers that came from TES do not want forced grouping outside of dungeons, how long do you think it will take them to 'discover' and 'fix' provisioning after they break it. So they best not waste anytime on 'try it you might like it' when it comes to the topic of PVP to craft.[/quote]

The game is only four months old. Asking them to tell you everything about a system that is being designed and implemented now for release sometime in the future is just silly.

Bleakraven

Black market for sugar and spices.

yarnevk

Yes I have played Elderscrolls before and I pretty sure that there was no ganker camping waiting for PVE players to be trapped into PVP. I did just fine growing my own food in my house in Skryim, but player ownership is not even being considered for ESO. It simply is not viable for dungeon loot to support provisioning, foreign loot is unuseable no matter how many pirate kitties and orc bandits I kill, you cannot say you mastered provisioning by skipping towns. It will need a complete redesign, and they need to start saying what that is. The fact that they showed video saying town food is stealing means they had not even considered their designs impact on crafting. Players cannot even try to put up ideas for how to fix it and delay this system, when the PVP gank squads who cannot do it in game decide to take it out on the forum by pretending to be the vocal majority who is all for crafting risking PVP is a good thing.

kitsinni

yarnevk wrote: »

You mean the magic crystal ball that said they was intent developing a third person MMO, until all us whiny TES players cried for first person view and they actually listened to the few that dared speak up for the silent majority louder than the vocal minority? It says a lot, that they do listen to their customers as long as they speak up. But past experience should tell you that taking the wait and see attitude is the wrong thing to do with these devs. PVE crafters do not want to be remotely involved in PVP games for more risk/reward, no amount of arguing by PVP will ever change that for those types will simply not play and

yarnevk wrote: »

Yes I have played Elderscrolls before and I pretty sure that there was no ganker camping waiting for PVE players to be trapped into PVP. I did just fine growing my own food in my house in Skryim, but player ownership is not even being considered for ESO. It simply is not viable for dungeon loot to support provisioning, foreign loot is unuseable no matter how many pirate kitties and orc bandits I kill, you cannot say you mastered provisioning by skipping towns. It will need a complete redesign, and they need to start saying what that is. The fact that they showed video saying town food is stealing means they had not even considered their designs impact on crafting. Players cannot even try to put up ideas for how to fix it and delay this system, when the PVP gank squads who cannot do it in game decide to take it out on the forum by pretending to be the vocal majority who is all for crafting risking PVP is a good thing.

Well let me start by thanking you for your service and bravery in fighting the "vocal minority" and the devs to insure first person for all 2 people that use it!

Then I will follow up by saying no they don't have to start saying what their plan is you will be fine.

zdkazz

@kitsinni Im glad Im one of the two people who use first person, it makes my pvp experience and videos that much cooler as it is something most people dont experience, ive pvped in mortal online for over 4 years(first person only openworld half ultima half tes oblivion)and i laugh at the misconception that fpv is gimping your self, for the situational awareness you loose you gain so much positional awareness .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Len4BkvrNnc

kitsinni

zdkazz wrote: »

@kitsinni Im glad Im one of the two people who use first person, it makes my pvp experience and videos that much cooler as it is something most people dont experience, ive pvped in mortal online for over 4 years(first person only openworld half ultima half tes oblivion)and i laugh at the misconception that fpv is gimping your self, for the situational awareness you loose you gain so much positional awareness .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Len4BkvrNnc

I'm glad you enjoy it.

KariTR

yarnevk wrote: »

KariTR wrote: »

My provisions are collected out in the wilds while I adventure and I leave more behind than I pick up.

You mean all the foreign food found in enemy camps that you have no bank space for and cannot use because you find no foreign recipes? There is very little viable provisioner loot out in the wild, compared to what is in town, and again this is not leveling up which is easy, it is about finding rares.

Lol, I have plenty of bag space and characters in all three factions.

However, I do only pick up ingredients for optimum recipes that I can make, or ingredients that I may not use but are sought after and sell quickly on the guild store. Speaking of which, 'foreign' ingredients and recipes are not filtered out.

liquid_wolf

Provisions and Motifs will still be found out in the world via dungeons, crates, and containers.

They are simply flagging items in town as stolen.

This will have a drastic effect on farming these materials, but I believe the gain is greater than the cost.

This step towards thiefs and player interaction is completely worth the adjustments that will need to be made to provisioning.

Alphashado

grimjim398 wrote: »

I have watched the video and don't see any evidence that crouching will act as an off/on switch for the justice system. That's speculation and nothing more. Stating that this is what you think will happen is fine, but some of you guys are talking about this as if you have read some official documentation somewhere and of course that's not possible since there isn't any. In my opinion it's not at all likely that stealth will be used that way.

It's useless to argue the point because we would simply be trading opinions. People will believe what they want to believe; they always do, until a fact hits them in the face. And the fact has to hit pretty hard to make an impact.

There's nothing anybody can say that will stop paranoia about provisioning until the revamp happens and the justice system comes online.

My only reason for posting is to counteract the people who are posting so confidently that the system has to work the way they think it will because only that way makes sense. Do NOT rely on the notion that looting while standing will make you safe because it is NOT in any way a fact.

Here is your pitchfork. Grab a torch off the wall as well.

As someone else stated already, an alien take over is possible. Is it likely considering sensible reasoning? No.

isengrimb16_ESO

zdkazz wrote: »

@kitsinni Im glad Im one of the two people who use first person, it makes my pvp experience and videos that much cooler as it is something most people dont experience, ive pvped in mortal online for over 4 years(first person only openworld half ultima half tes oblivion)and i laugh at the misconception that fpv is gimping your self, for the situational awareness you loose you gain so much positional awareness .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Len4BkvrNnc

I guess I'm also a second person.

Third person is too awkward for me, with that offside target. It was fine in WoW, because of the tab target thing, but it doesn't seem to work like I'm used to here, so I have to aim anyway - like I do in Skyrim.

The only time I have a problem with first-person is on those harvesters, on a melee, because they aren't a matter of just moving out of a red spot/carpet/cone.

Hurray for 360 degree blocking!

zdkazz

isengrimb16_ESO wrote: »

zdkazz wrote: »

@kitsinni Im glad Im one of the two people who use first person, it makes my pvp experience and videos that much cooler as it is something most people dont experience, ive pvped in mortal online for over 4 years(first person only openworld half ultima half tes oblivion)and i laugh at the misconception that fpv is gimping your self, for the situational awareness you loose you gain so much positional awareness .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Len4BkvrNnc

I guess I'm also a second person.

Third person is too awkward for me, with that offside target. It was fine in WoW, because of the tab target thing, but it doesn't seem to work like I'm used to here, so I have to aim anyway - like I do in Skyrim.

The only time I have a problem with first-person is on those harvesters, on a melee, because they aren't a matter of just moving out of a red spot/carpet/cone.

Hurray for 360 degree blocking!

yeah those harvesters suck lol, but back on topic, I really doubt they would change a system that has been implemented since daggerfall, especially when that system would work perfectly in a mmo, in oblivion and skyrim you get a 40 gold bounty for attacking(but not killing someone) and in the video paul was a vet char in a lvl 25 area, so he was op, I doubt that when your in your appropriate area and you accedentally attack some one youll kill them and be marked as kos, your probbobly just get a 40 gold assault charge, as for the crafting side of things I doubt every container is owned, i bet some are open for free, but the ones in houses and also the ones by the market venders and the like are owned and would be stealling.
I know that if i owned a house in eso and someone came in and rummaged through all my drawers id report them to the guards, makes since, so not all the crates are owned lol