Justice System impact on Provisioning skill and motif/recipe farming? ZOS please help with answer...

babylon · July 2014

aipex8_ESO wrote: »

Babylon, maybe to save face you should just say you don't know and wait until we get word from a dev. If after all this passionate arguing, your opinion (and it is just an opinion) is proven wrong you're going to have a lot of crow to eat.

I'm sure just like other TES games, stealing is stealing, standing or crouching. Also like other TES games, there will probably be many places you can loot containers (even in cities) that won't be stealing.

I said it was speculation.

And I am entitled to have an opinion as much as you are. I disagree with your assumption btw, as forcing a stance to engage the justice system will save a lot of headaches for ZOS (accidental bounties), so it makes sense they have already thought of this. If they haven't and you're right then it is going to be quite a mess, and I'll be the first one to say "I told you so". Looks like I'll get to say that either way :P

Zephyr · July 2014

Im pretty sure its only theft if you are in a building ie a shop or inn. I sincerely doubt open world it would be theft. You'll just have to relocate your farm spawns.

XquixoticalX · July 2014

Maybe they're not being specific about how it works yet because they still don't know how it works yet.

Anastasia · July 2014

kitsinni wrote: »

XquixoticalX wrote: »

If that's the case, then provisioners would have to put skill points into thieves guild just to continue doing their craft as before. How is this fair in relation to the other crafting skills? It's not becoming "theft" to collect alchemy reagents or blacksmithing ores for example. What if we don't want to join thieves guild skill line? What if I want to be an honorable provisioner who joins the guards?

What happened to play your way? Just seems like this change will be forcing provisioners into being on the wrong side of the justice system. Just like the game forced templars who want to succeed into wearing light armor and waving sticks.

You might be getting a little worked up over a hypothetical. Maybe they will add vendors with the mats or other ways to get them. Maybe I am completely wrong. Also you can always buy from other players.

Or he and others can keep pointing out how unfair it is until ZOS changes it, as they did the Vet+ content.

babylon · July 2014

XquixoticalX wrote: »

Maybe they're not being specific about how it works yet because they still don't know how it works yet.

I would imagine some of this is still being debated. The fact that banker NPCs are currently attackable indicates they haven't finetuned it vs the players yet

XquixoticalX · July 2014

Anastasia wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

XquixoticalX wrote: »

If that's the case, then provisioners would have to put skill points into thieves guild just to continue doing their craft as before. How is this fair in relation to the other crafting skills? It's not becoming "theft" to collect alchemy reagents or blacksmithing ores for example. What if we don't want to join thieves guild skill line? What if I want to be an honorable provisioner who joins the guards?

What happened to play your way? Just seems like this change will be forcing provisioners into being on the wrong side of the justice system. Just like the game forced templars who want to succeed into wearing light armor and waving sticks.

You might be getting a little worked up over a hypothetical. Maybe they will add vendors with the mats or other ways to get them. Maybe I am completely wrong. Also you can always buy from other players.

Or he and others can keep pointing out how unfair it is until ZOS changes it, as they did the Vet+ content.

As the OP, I should point out that I never really said anything about fairness. I may have mentioned it not being on par with other crafting skill lines, but that is not the intent of this thread. My original sentiment is a question. I just want to know how it works. If it is not the answer I want to hear, yeah it will suck and I will grumble to myself about it for a few minutes and then start working on alternative solutions. But I will not be repeatedly complaining or crying unfair, creating multiple topics and commenting on identical ones. You will not see that from me on this forum ever.

Re: the Vet content, I was never one of the people complaining. To be honest it doesn't really matter to me. It was fine before and it is fine now. I'm not sure I really noticed a change.

Anastasia · July 2014

babylon wrote: »

XquixoticalX wrote: »

Maybe they're not being specific about how it works yet because they still don't know how it works yet.

I would imagine some of this is still being debated. The fact that banker NPCs are currently attackable indicates they haven't finetuned it vs the players yet

babylon - it was said that the banker NPC's WILL be attackable but not killable...nothing was even hinted that it was up in the air or still undecided.

That is exactly the quote of the description of which type of npc's would included in the new Justice system. While we do not yet know all the details ZOS will be going forward with, its highly unlikely they will change what they already designed before they even release it to live. Puleese.

How - (not whether) it will affect a player nearby who isn't involved, has yet to be explained. But part of this is the general interactivity of other players nearby. Perhaps for example light RPing will occur and those not involved or not wanting to be involved in the attack who are nearby will /cheer emote or /yell for the guards, or take a second to 'take bets on how far the attacker will make it before Lt. Zonn and his associates take him out'... etc etc etc.

I don't see how this will be put in and be completely 'instanced' individually in some way so as to completely not 'bother' other players nearby...its sort of part of the point isn't it?????

If your banker keeps getting attacked, you have choices...interact with whats occurring and then carry on, or go find another banker. If attackers get a bounty on themselves, its sort of likely to be DIFFICULT TO ENTER THE BANK AGAIN ANYTIME SOON since there are guards about; thus limiting or preventing that specific player to repeatedly mess with said Banker npc.

Really. o-0

babylon · July 2014

Anastasia wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

XquixoticalX wrote: »

Maybe they're not being specific about how it works yet because they still don't know how it works yet.

I would imagine some of this is still being debated. The fact that banker NPCs are currently attackable indicates they haven't finetuned it vs the players yet

babylon - it was said that the banker NPC's WILL be attackable but not killable...nothing was even hinted that it was up in the air or still undecided.

Well the ZOS employee who posted immediately after being questioned on this point indicated that ZOS was looking at what effects this would have, and waiting to see how it pans out on the test server. So yes ZOS is still finalising the details here.

Loyheta · July 2014

provisioning is really easy to find. it is everywhere.. the only thing I see becoming harder is motifs

Anastasia · July 2014

babylon wrote: »

Anastasia wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

XquixoticalX wrote: »

Maybe they're not being specific about how it works yet because they still don't know how it works yet.

I would imagine some of this is still being debated. The fact that banker NPCs are currently attackable indicates they haven't finetuned it vs the players yet

babylon - it was said that the banker NPC's WILL be attackable but not killable...nothing was even hinted that it was up in the air or still undecided.

Well the ZOS employee who posted immediately after being questioned on this point indicated that ZOS was looking at what effects this would have, and waiting to see how it pans out on the test server. So yes ZOS is still finalising the details here.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom admin
July 21 Staff Post

The current plan is that important NPCs (quest NPCs, bankers, stablemasters, merchants) will not be killable when the Justice System goes live. However, they will be attackable, react accordingly, and you will incur bounty for doing so.

Jessica Folsom
Community Manager (English) - The Elder Scrolls Online
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Flag Quote · 7Insightful 1Agree 41Awesome 2LOL

babylon · July 2014

Anastasia wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Anastasia wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

XquixoticalX wrote: »

Maybe they're not being specific about how it works yet because they still don't know how it works yet.

I would imagine some of this is still being debated. The fact that banker NPCs are currently attackable indicates they haven't finetuned it vs the players yet

babylon - it was said that the banker NPC's WILL be attackable but not killable...nothing was even hinted that it was up in the air or still undecided.

Well the ZOS employee who posted immediately after being questioned on this point indicated that ZOS was looking at what effects this would have, and waiting to see how it pans out on the test server. So yes ZOS is still finalising the details here.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom admin
July 21 Staff Post

The current plan is that important NPCs (quest NPCs, bankers, stablemasters, merchants) will not be killable when the Justice System goes live. However, they will be attackable, react accordingly, and you will incur bounty for doing so.

Uhh yeah, like I said - the post AFTER that post -

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

So every 10 seconds some guy attacks the banker and kicks you out of the bank screen. Awesome.

This is why we'll have testing on the PTS.

You'll note they are still seeing how this all goes (and my bet is this will be fixed quickly to make bankers/quest NPCs and shop NPCs unattackable and non-reactive).

Anastasia · July 2014

babylon wrote: »

Anastasia wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Anastasia wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

XquixoticalX wrote: »

Maybe they're not being specific about how it works yet because they still don't know how it works yet.

I would imagine some of this is still being debated. The fact that banker NPCs are currently attackable indicates they haven't finetuned it vs the players yet

babylon - it was said that the banker NPC's WILL be attackable but not killable...nothing was even hinted that it was up in the air or still undecided.

Well the ZOS employee who posted immediately after being questioned on this point indicated that ZOS was looking at what effects this would have, and waiting to see how it pans out on the test server. So yes ZOS is still finalising the details here.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom admin
July 21 Staff Post

The current plan is that important NPCs (quest NPCs, bankers, stablemasters, merchants) will not be killable when the Justice System goes live. However, they will be attackable, react accordingly, and you will incur bounty for doing so.

Uhh yeah, like I said - the post AFTER that post -

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

So every 10 seconds some guy attacks the banker and kicks you out of the bank screen. Awesome.

This is why we'll have testing on the PTS.

You'll note they are still seeing how this all goes (and my bet is this will be fixed quickly to make bankers/quest NPCs and shop NPCs unattackable and non-reactive).

I understand your guess is as good as mine as to what they may change or delete from any original core content they design; you certainly are hoping they will change that.

I can't offer anything more than what I already said. I just rewatched the segment of Quakecon with Paul enthusing over the Justice system, and note he literally joyfully said with a grin, "Yes, thats right there is going to be more for PvPing!"

XquixoticalX · July 2014

All are making great points, but guys please let's stay on topic. There's an entire other thread dedicated to this NPC reactivity thing. This discussion is about containers and looting materials in cities or homes. I've seen enough threads closed for going off topic and I think this one has some good ideas in it and may yet be responded to by someone from ZOS, so let's not kill it.

babylon · July 2014

Anastasia wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Anastasia wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Anastasia wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

XquixoticalX wrote: »

Maybe they're not being specific about how it works yet because they still don't know how it works yet.

I would imagine some of this is still being debated. The fact that banker NPCs are currently attackable indicates they haven't finetuned it vs the players yet

babylon - it was said that the banker NPC's WILL be attackable but not killable...nothing was even hinted that it was up in the air or still undecided.

Well the ZOS employee who posted immediately after being questioned on this point indicated that ZOS was looking at what effects this would have, and waiting to see how it pans out on the test server. So yes ZOS is still finalising the details here.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom admin
July 21 Staff Post

The current plan is that important NPCs (quest NPCs, bankers, stablemasters, merchants) will not be killable when the Justice System goes live. However, they will be attackable, react accordingly, and you will incur bounty for doing so.

Uhh yeah, like I said - the post AFTER that post -

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

So every 10 seconds some guy attacks the banker and kicks you out of the bank screen. Awesome.

This is why we'll have testing on the PTS.

You'll note they are still seeing how this all goes (and my bet is this will be fixed quickly to make bankers/quest NPCs and shop NPCs unattackable and non-reactive).

I understand your guess is as good as mine; you certainly are hoping they will change that. I can't offer anything more than what I already said. I just rewatched the segment of Quakecon with Paul enthusing over the Justice system, and note he literally joyfully said with a grin, "Yes, thats right there is going to be more for PvPing!"

What is your point exactly? Do you think they are going to be gleefully making people accidentally enter into pvp? I don't think so, they'll be making sure anyone getting involved in the justice system is deliberately and knowingly doing so, and griefer types can't involve people even indirectly (knocking players out of a banking window for example) - forcing a stance to gain justice system actions and making essential NPCs unattackable and non-reactive at all times will quite likely be part of this fine-tuning.

They're not going to want to see their subscribers quit the game over this, they're doing this to make more money, not less.

Audigy · July 2014

I am not entirely sure why some people are worried so much

As for crates etc. it will only be robbery, if you sneak. In the video you saw this quite well and this isn't any different to the ES games.

Sneak = gaining access to thievery tools, robbery & murder

So if you don't sneak, then you wont steal and just get what you always got. An apple, some weed whatsoever. These things however will not have any worth, they stay at 0 gold and you wont get credit for the DB & Thieves guild.

Items however which were stolen, will have a significant value and could be sold to a shady dealer outside of town and might even be a part of some quests to unlock specific skill lines.

As for the NPC thing, as Jess said they wont die - but they will run for cover or alarm a guard.

In my opinion a great system that should please every ES fan and hopefully it will also be acceptable to the MMO crowds. Sure a real "kill" would be more realistic, especially from a point of immersion - but I guess ZO wont do this.

babylon · July 2014

Audigy wrote: »

I am not entirely sure why some people are worried so much

As for crates etc. it will only be robbery, if you sneak. In the video you saw this quite well and this isn't any different to the ES games.

Sneak = gaining access to thievery tools, robbery & murder

So if you don't sneak, then you wont steal and just get what you always got. An apple, some weed whatsoever. These things however will not have any worth, they stay at 0 gold and you wont get credit for the DB & Thieves guild.

Same as what I've been saying right through this thread and elsewhere in the forum (crouching gives us access to justice system actions).

Well that's two votes for changing stance (to crouch) = access to justice system.

Anastasia · July 2014

babylon wrote: »

Anastasia wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Anastasia wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Anastasia wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

XquixoticalX wrote: »

Maybe they're not being specific about how it works yet because they still don't know how it works yet.

I would imagine some of this is still being debated. The fact that banker NPCs are currently attackable indicates they haven't finetuned it vs the players yet

babylon - it was said that the banker NPC's WILL be attackable but not killable...nothing was even hinted that it was up in the air or still undecided.

Well the ZOS employee who posted immediately after being questioned on this point indicated that ZOS was looking at what effects this would have, and waiting to see how it pans out on the test server. So yes ZOS is still finalising the details here.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom admin
July 21 Staff Post

The current plan is that important NPCs (quest NPCs, bankers, stablemasters, merchants) will not be killable when the Justice System goes live. However, they will be attackable, react accordingly, and you will incur bounty for doing so.

Uhh yeah, like I said - the post AFTER that post -

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

So every 10 seconds some guy attacks the banker and kicks you out of the bank screen. Awesome.

This is why we'll have testing on the PTS.

You'll note they are still seeing how this all goes (and my bet is this will be fixed quickly to make bankers/quest NPCs and shop NPCs unattackable and non-reactive).

I understand your guess is as good as mine; you certainly are hoping they will change that. I can't offer anything more than what I already said. I just rewatched the segment of Quakecon with Paul enthusing over the Justice system, and note he literally joyfully said with a grin, "Yes, thats right there is going to be more for PvPing!"

What is your point exactly? Do you think they are going to be gleefully making people accidentally enter into pvp? I don't think so, they'll be making sure anyone getting involved in the justice system is deliberately and knowingly doing so, and griefer types can't involve people even indirectly (knocking players out of a banking window for example) - forcing a stance to gain justice system actions and making essential NPCs unattackable and non-reactive at all times will quite likely be part of this fine-tuning.

They're not going to want to see their subscribers quit the game over this, they're doing this to make more money, not less.

No I do not think they will force PvPing, but seeing what his POSITION in the company is and seeing his enthusiasm in regards to this Justice system that is coming in shortly, I am 'guessing' he would lean toward not changing the already designed plan of some of the important npc's in town being attackable, to cause disturbances etc, but not killable.

No proof, just discussing with you why I think what they have said is the creation will remain basically what they have made it. As others have contributed, if the npc's which are part of the justice system are not good 'bait',or for instance, don't drop decent coin/loot...or if there aren't some very awesome questlines from DB or Thieves Guilds or others, then this will simply be a few days of novelty and then ignored player content.

It will be very cool to find out how this is implemented and how it affects or doesn't affect harvesting containers etc for motifs or provisioning supplies et al.

Psychobunni · July 2014

XquixoticalX wrote: »

Edit: This post has grown large rather quickly, so it's clearly something more than a few people are either confused or curious about. It would be wonderful if someone from ZOS would pop in and lay some knowledge on us.

I came to the forum looking for answers as well. I don't quite agree with the provisioning materials being "easy to find" as some have stated. That depends on what exactly it is you are trying to make. I hope this change is considered and balanced out however they do it.

GnatB · July 2014

babylon wrote: »

And because the pve crowd doesn't actually want to get involved in pvp, which is what the justice system has unfortunately been designed as. Personally I would've preferred to see the justice system designed as pure NPC action, without other players being able to thump you. Steal something, and the guards come at you - not other players. If ZOS wanted to add pvp in the open world, they should've added dueling.

The pve crowd should be able to continue playing the game as it is.

After rereading, I'm not convinced on the crouch = steal, not crouch = not steal.

From what I've inferred:
If you try to steal and are hidden, you successfully steal. If you try to steal and aren't hidden, you get a guard in your face saying you've been caught. You can pay the fine (and lose all stolen goods) or you can fight back/flee. If you get away, a bounty is placed on your head and PC guards can come after you.

•You can take items from crates etc as normal but instead now you are stealing items. Items will have value if they are stolen. To steal something, you need to be hidden. If a guard caught you stealing, you can pay a bounty but it remove all your stolen goods.
•If you cannot pay a bounty when caught by a guard, you can try to flee and guards will attack you.
•You can also be guards and hunt down players with bounty – active world PvP.

I expect there will be enough "unclaimed" sources for provisioners to function, but the claimed ones will be where the good items are. However, just because you try to steal good items doesn't leave you to the tender mercies of the PvPer's. Only if you get caught and don't pay the fine.

GnatB · July 2014

One thing I am curious, once you have a bounty, and die, does that simply zero out your bounty?

So, as a provisioner, I can stick all my money/gear in the bank, run around stealing, dumping my goods in the bank every so often, and if I get caught simply let the guard kill me to zero out my bounty and then back to the looting without any real muss/fuss?

Or, for those after money, run around killing as many NPC's as possible, build up as large a bounty as I can, then unequip everything so my friend can kill me for the gold?

I just don't see how this justice system isn't one big exploit waiting to happen.

Audigy · July 2014

GnatB wrote: »

One thing I am curious, once you have a bounty, and die, does that simply zero out your bounty?

So, as a provisioner, I can stick all my money/gear in the bank, run around stealing, dumping my goods in the bank every so often, and if I get caught simply let the guard kill me to zero out my bounty and then back to the looting without any real muss/fuss?

Or, for those after money, run around killing as many NPC's as possible, build up as large a bounty as I can, then unequip everything so my friend can kill me for the gold?

I just don't see how this justice system isn't one big exploit waiting to happen.

If a guard or player caught you then you can either pay the bounty or you flee and occasionally die. If you die, you will however resurrect on a Wayshrine or by using a soul gem.

The bounty will stay until paid, at least this is the last information we have based on the Quakcon presentation.

It will be very interesting to see how this is going to work out in the long run. Someone who cant pay his bounty, would always be attackable by other players. If we now assume that having a bounty will happen sooner or later while doing the guild quests, then also those opposed to pvp would feel the consequences of their behavior in game.

That said, only if a crime was witness a player receives a bounty.

DuelWieldingCheesyPoofs · July 2014

Logic says stealing is stealing, id bet looting containers will be harder, dnt think they will clarify this because just think if they say yes, stealing is stealing, then motifs will get farmed again by hoarders untill the patch hits and them sell them at silly prices ..again xD

jelliedsoup · July 2014

Containers in homes when the people are there will be stealing. Wtp? I'm a provisioner too.

OtarTheMad · July 2014

I LOVE the idea of the Justice System and just can't wait to see it in game. However I have to say that Zenimax has to readjust how they do motifs, provisioning and some other things you can only find in houses. Maybe adding more in-world encounters/chances or maybe vendors that sell them... in terms of motifs maybe Blacksmiths or clothier can occasionally/rarely sell it... just an idea. I assume with the new motifs coming in at some point you plan on changing how they drop.

KariTR · July 2014

The last three motifs I have found were done so out in the world - two in dungeon containers and one in a random backpack I came across while exploring. This is exactly how it should be and the Justice system will not affect it one bit.

I'm not sure why some people need to know the intricacies of the system NOW. Well, except that they may want to farm the hell out of the game between now and when the Justice system comes in. Like I said, that isn't gaming. This is TES, not Supermarket Sweep.

Pele · July 2014

I'm interested to know how the justice system will work as well.

*watches thread*

Anastasia · July 2014

"•You can take items from crates etc as normal but instead now you are stealing items." (!)

I am curious for sure if 'hidden' means you must be in stealth/crouch or if he meant you could be just around the cart not in line of vision therefore sometimes not detectable as stealing etc. but it would be
a risk. ^-^

Dagoth_Rac · July 2014

This is discussed in the Provisioning Revamp thread. I think it is on page 3 where Gina says:

Once the Justice System is released, we will make sure that Provisioning is adjusted to ensure you don't need to be thieves in order to participate meaningfully in the tradeskill.

isengrimb16_ESO · July 2014

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

This is discussed in the Provisioning Revamp thread. I think it is on page 3 where Gina says:

Once the Justice System is released, we will make sure that Provisioning is adjusted to ensure you don't need to be thieves in order to participate meaningfully in the tradeskill.

Well, from what I remember how the rest of it sounded, we won't need to hunt recipes any more, or something.

Enkil · July 2014

Didn't read all thread... but why not treat it just like Skyrim did? Ingredients flagged as stolen can be readily used to make food + drink which in turn would not be flagged as stolen.

These ingredients can be obtained by stealing from barrels and sacks that are owned such as in towns and in shops, or a more upstanding citizen can loot unowned versions freely in dungeons, random parts, parts of the docks, and places where the owner is no longer alive. Just put a flag on the container so we know it it's stealing or not.....

In short: Copy Skyrim.