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Justice System impact on Provisioning skill and motif/recipe farming? ZOS please help with answer...
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ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭
if you notice, he is not in stealth when he attacks all these peopleIf you take from a container that is owned, your Stealing. Crouching just means you have less of a chance of being caught.
http://dulfy.net/2014/07/18/eso-quakecon-the-future-of-eso-panel-notes/
No, that's an interpretation. In my opinion it's far more likely that crouching is the mechanic used to give access to justice system actions, such as target NPC for attack, and steal rather than search from a container.
Basically that crouching is required to participate in the justice system, and that people can search containers as normal otherwise, and not participate in the justice system if they don't want to.
Otherwise people would be accidentally killing NPCs when they hit a skill, or accidentally stealing when they meant to search because they didn't notice the word was different. Making a player actively change their position seems like a much better way of allowing a player to know when they are in danger of committing any criminal action.
If you'll notice - he had only just killed another NPC immediately before attacking that group - you can see the kill notice flying up in the top right before he attacked them, which was the only reason he wasn't stealthed - he was already flagged for pvp.
Was waiting for someone to post that
It was a trap! :P
"As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?1 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »
if you notice, he is not in stealth when he attacks all these peopleIf you take from a container that is owned, your Stealing. Crouching just means you have less of a chance of being caught.
http://dulfy.net/2014/07/18/eso-quakecon-the-future-of-eso-panel-notes/
No, that's an interpretation. In my opinion it's far more likely that crouching is the mechanic used to give access to justice system actions, such as target NPC for attack, and steal rather than search from a container.
Basically that crouching is required to participate in the justice system, and that people can search containers as normal otherwise, and not participate in the justice system if they don't want to.
Otherwise people would be accidentally killing NPCs when they hit a skill, or accidentally stealing when they meant to search because they didn't notice the word was different. Making a player actively change their position seems like a much better way of allowing a player to know when they are in danger of committing any criminal action.
If you'll notice - he had only just killed another NPC immediately before attacking that group - you can see the kill notice flying up in the top right before he attacked them, which was the only reason he wasn't stealthed - he was already flagged for pvp.
Was waiting for someone to post that
It was a trap! :P
It totally was ^_^3 -
zdkazz✭✭✭✭
/sigh
if you notice, he is not in stealth when he attacks all these peopleIf you take from a container that is owned, your Stealing. Crouching just means you have less of a chance of being caught.
http://dulfy.net/2014/07/18/eso-quakecon-the-future-of-eso-panel-notes/
No, that's an interpretation. In my opinion it's far more likely that crouching is the mechanic used to give access to justice system actions, such as target NPC for attack, and steal rather than search from a container.
Basically that crouching is required to participate in the justice system, and that people can search containers as normal otherwise, and not participate in the justice system if they don't want to.
Otherwise people would be accidentally killing NPCs when they hit a skill, or accidentally stealing when they meant to search because they didn't notice the word was different. Making a player actively change their position seems like a much better way of allowing a player to know when they are in danger of committing any criminal action.
If you'll notice - he had only just killed another NPC immediately before attacking that group - you can see the kill notice flying up in the top right before he attacked them, which was the only reason he wasn't stealthed - he was already flagged for pvp.
Was waiting for someone to post that
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom or some one else can you set this straight for us pls, the sitting in the dark is making me feel like a mushroom(Luminous Russula to be exact lol) any clarification would be awesome.2 -
zdkazz✭✭✭✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »
if you notice, he is not in stealth when he attacks all these peopleIf you take from a container that is owned, your Stealing. Crouching just means you have less of a chance of being caught.
http://dulfy.net/2014/07/18/eso-quakecon-the-future-of-eso-panel-notes/
No, that's an interpretation. In my opinion it's far more likely that crouching is the mechanic used to give access to justice system actions, such as target NPC for attack, and steal rather than search from a container.
Basically that crouching is required to participate in the justice system, and that people can search containers as normal otherwise, and not participate in the justice system if they don't want to.
Otherwise people would be accidentally killing NPCs when they hit a skill, or accidentally stealing when they meant to search because they didn't notice the word was different. Making a player actively change their position seems like a much better way of allowing a player to know when they are in danger of committing any criminal action.
If you'll notice - he had only just killed another NPC immediately before attacking that group - you can see the kill notice flying up in the top right before he attacked them, which was the only reason he wasn't stealthed - he was already flagged for pvp.
Was waiting for someone to post that
It was a trap! :P
It totally was ^_^
touché lol2 -
Nestor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭To steal something, you need to be hidden.
Are you watching the same video that I am? He never says those words. He only talks about sneaking as a way to not get caught. I think you want it to be a certain way, but the reality is going to be different.
In every previous TES game, this is how it works. You take something from a container that is owned by someone else it is stealing. You only get a bounty if your seen, and if you pay the bounty off, you lose your stolen items. Nothing in that video contradicts that.
Now, unless you are a ZOS employee and have seen the behind the scenes workings, or have spoken to a developer, this video is all we have to go on, and it sound like every TES game we have up until now with regards to property rights.
I also remember a developer posting or stating that the days of looting containers without consequence are over with the Justice System, but that was a few weeks ago and I can't find a reference to that.
Now, I would hope that your correct and that all we have to do is not Sneak and we can loot just like before. Because, this will quite frankly suck if it goes live the way that is portrayed in the video. Not just the lack of looting but the NPC killing too. I guess we have to wait for a developer to chime in, or this goes up on the PTS.
I just don't see how the instances of the containers can change on the fly based on the stance of the PC. Because that is the only way this could work based on what you are saying.
Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.
PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"2 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I just don't see how the instances of the containers can change on the fly based on the stance of the PC. Because that is the only way this could work based on what you are saying.
The content won't change - the flag associated with the item will be what is changed (value of item, and it will be marked as stolen so can't be sold or traded or crafted with).
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ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭I just don't see how the instances of the containers can change on the fly based on the stance of the PC. Because that is the only way this could work based on what you are saying.
The content won't change - the flag associated with the item will be what is changed (value of item, and it will be marked as stolen so can't be sold or traded or crafted with).
^^^
I'll give you another 10,000g if this happens."As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?0 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »I just don't see how the instances of the containers can change on the fly based on the stance of the PC. Because that is the only way this could work based on what you are saying.
The content won't change - the flag associated with the item will be what is changed (value of item, and it will be marked as stolen so can't be sold or traded or crafted with).
^^^
I'll give you another 10,000g if this happens.
Cheers!0 -
zdkazz✭✭✭✭I just don't see how the instances of the containers can change on the fly based on the stance of the PC. Because that is the only way this could work based on what you are saying.
The content won't change - the flag associated with the item will be what is changed (value of item, and it will be marked as stolen so can't be sold or traded or crafted with).
how in high latency areas is the game going to keep track of changing the flags for you, it would be alot more information going through the server, sending your stance the items flag etc through the system, this will cause server lag,
an example is in pvp in high populated areas you press the crouch button and your char will stand up, but in actuality he will still be in crouch as the client recognizes you are standing but the server hasent sent that info back yet, the amount of information needed to be relayed over the server per person crouching would explode the server lol, this is why they didnt do capes or flowing hair, to much information is hard on the server.1 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I just don't see how the instances of the containers can change on the fly based on the stance of the PC. Because that is the only way this could work based on what you are saying.
The content won't change - the flag associated with the item will be what is changed (value of item, and it will be marked as stolen so can't be sold or traded or crafted with).
how in high latency areas is the game going to keep track of changing the flags for you.
Same as the flags change when a yellow aura mob suddenly becomes attackable and is now a red aura mob. The flags just change, there's no delay or latency problem at all, it's instant - I know this as I'm an Oceanic player.0 -
Nestor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I just don't see how the instances of the containers can change on the fly based on the stance of the PC. Because that is the only way this could work based on what you are saying.
The content won't change - the flag associated with the item will be what is changed (value of item, and it will be marked as stolen so can't be sold or traded or crafted with).
That does not explain the red text when activating the container, which is the universal TES indicator that taking things from the container will be stealing.
The way you are describing how this works is just about the most complicated way of doing things that there could be. The game has to check first on your stance, then it has to assign a red indicator on the container you are looking at, then it has to apply a flag, and an item value, to the item being stolen, all on the fly. Which means I could crouch for one container, steal from it, then stand up and just loot the next container.
The more you try to prove your point, the more absurd the mechanism becomes to support what you are describing.
Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.
PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"3 -
zdkazz✭✭✭✭I just don't see how the instances of the containers can change on the fly based on the stance of the PC. Because that is the only way this could work based on what you are saying.
The content won't change - the flag associated with the item will be what is changed (value of item, and it will be marked as stolen so can't be sold or traded or crafted with).
how in high latency areas is the game going to keep track of changing the flags for you.
Same as the flags change when a yellow aura mob suddenly becomes attackable and is now a red aura mob. The flags just change, there's no delay or latency problem at all, it's instant - I know this as I'm an Oceanic player.
that is a hard coded instance, this however is something that would need to be done server side due to the scope of items in each crate and the fact that they dont have loot tables, but rather the loot is randomised by the server and then placed in the crate, the game would need to keep those items on memory inorder to change the flag as they have already been placed in the world.1 -
zdkazz✭✭✭✭
not only that all that information per person looting and crouching would cause server lag because it would need to be sent to the server and returned to the player and the more information on the server there is the less often you receive the data packages, causing lagI just don't see how the instances of the containers can change on the fly based on the stance of the PC. Because that is the only way this could work based on what you are saying.
The content won't change - the flag associated with the item will be what is changed (value of item, and it will be marked as stolen so can't be sold or traded or crafted with).
That does not explain the red text when activating the container, which is the universal TES indicator that taking things from the container will be stealing.
The way you are describing how this works is just about the most complicated way of doing things that there could be. The game has to check first on your stance, then it has to assign a red indicator on the container you are looking at, then it has to apply a flag, and an item value, to the item being stolen, all on the fly. Which means I could crouch for one container, steal from it, then stand up and just loot the next container.
The more you try to prove your point, the more absurd the mechanism becomes to support what you are describing.0 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I just don't see how the instances of the containers can change on the fly based on the stance of the PC. Because that is the only way this could work based on what you are saying.
The content won't change - the flag associated with the item will be what is changed (value of item, and it will be marked as stolen so can't be sold or traded or crafted with).
That does not explain the red text when activating the container, which is the universal TES indicator that taking things from the container will be stealing.
The way you are describing how this works is just about the most complicated way of doing things that there could be. The game has to check first on your stance, then it has to assign a red indicator on the container you are looking at, then it has to apply a flag, and an item value, to the item being stolen, all on the fly. Which means I could crouch for one container, steal from it, then stand up and just loot the next container.
The more you try to prove your point, the more absurd the mechanism becomes to support what you are describing.
This isn't absurd, it will work fine. It's just coding. It would be far better for the game to check stance than to have players accidentally attack NPCs and get a 70,000 bounty for hitting the R key accidentally.Edited by babylon on July 24, 2014 10:53PM1 -
zdkazz✭✭✭✭@babylon why are you fighting this so hard the system you put down would kill performance, and makes no logical since, they have never said anything to back your claim up, my claim however is they same system that has been in every es game since Morrowind, and the developers have said multiple times
"eso is an elder scrolls game"
just dont hit R accidentally, or steal from towns or someones house, problem solvedEdited by zdkazz on July 24, 2014 11:00PM1 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@babylon why are you fighting this so hard the system you put down would kill performance, and makes no logical since
It would not kill performance and is very logical, and practical, and also brings about a second Christmas every year. And will save tons of people accidentally gaining the attention of guards. It'd make no sense to NOT do it that way.
If anything is going to kill performance it would be all the extra fighting going on in town with guards running about on steroids all over the place.
Edited by babylon on July 24, 2014 11:02PM1 -
XquixoticalX✭✭✭I gotta say, if @zdkazz is correct, it will be hard not to accidentally hit R and incur a bounty. When I'm gathering foodstuffs things are moving so fast and it's like reflex. It would be safer if the containers owned by NPCs were either a different color or a different design than unowned containers. I already choose not to loot certain containers because I know they never contain something I want. I can learn not to touch owned containers too.~ Belle Folie
"I'm here to kick ass and eat sweetrolls. And I'm all out of sweetrolls."1 -
Kewljag_66_ESO✭✭✭✭✭ebuntsb14_ESO wrote: »Kewljag_66_ESO wrote: »XquixoticalX wrote: »You might be getting a little worked up over a hypothetical. Maybe they will add vendors with the mats or other ways to get them. Maybe I am completely wrong. Also you can always buy from other players.
In both cases, it is creating a system in which a certain crafting skill line either now has to BUY or STEAL his materials. It's bad enough that some recipes ALREADY require bought ingredients. None of the other crafting skills require even ONE item that can be bought from a vendor.
Did you play Skyrim? Its only containers in cities or friendly NPCs that it would be considered stealing from. You can go into any dungeon, hideout, camp or just any "bad guy" place and take from those containers WITHOUT it being stealing.
Well this isn't Skyrim and its not how Zenimax does things. When ZOS makes changes they apply it to the entire system. Crates, Barrels and such belongs to bandits that is in the cave.
Its not just the fact that getting your basic materials is now going to be stealing, your also going to be left open for being pk'd in a PvE environment.
I really doubt that, this system will just mean that if you try to take the easy road and steal from convienent close stuff in cities from friendly NPCs you run the risk of having to pay for it. otheriwse leave the the city and search the map, abandon houses, ramdom caravan wrecks and yes anything from aggresive mobs places like bandit hide outs will be up for grabs without being stealing. its a very simple , but everyone always assumes the worse for everything and wants to have everything handed to them and to take the easy road. I gurentee you 90% of teh crates and barrels in the game on the map will not be considered stealing, Only the ones you choose to steal from friendly people in towns.Edited by Kewljag_66_ESO on July 24, 2014 11:10PM2 -
zdkazz✭✭✭✭XquixoticalX wrote: »I gotta say, if @zdkazz is correct, it will be hard not to accidentally hit R and incur a bounty. When I'm gathering foodstuffs things are moving so fast and it's like reflex. It would be safer if the containers owned by NPCs were either a different color or a different design than unowned containers. I already choose not to loot certain containers because I know they never contain something I want. I can learn not to touch owned containers too.
perhapse you should bind your ult to a different key lol,
back on subject tho, I wonder if these will effect the armor and weps we just got the ability to pick up, seems kinda weird atm when you can just steal all the blacksmiths weps from the forge lol0 -
zdkazz✭✭✭✭
yeah they are over complicating it, it is quite effective and elegant in oblivion and skyrim, it will transition nicely when it gets applied here.Kewljag_66_ESO wrote: »ebuntsb14_ESO wrote: »Kewljag_66_ESO wrote: »XquixoticalX wrote: »You might be getting a little worked up over a hypothetical. Maybe they will add vendors with the mats or other ways to get them. Maybe I am completely wrong. Also you can always buy from other players.
In both cases, it is creating a system in which a certain crafting skill line either now has to BUY or STEAL his materials. It's bad enough that some recipes ALREADY require bought ingredients. None of the other crafting skills require even ONE item that can be bought from a vendor.
Did you play Skyrim? Its only containers in cities or friendly NPCs that it would be considered stealing from. You can go into any dungeon, hideout, camp or just any "bad guy" place and take from those containers WITHOUT it being stealing.
Well this isn't Skyrim and its not how Zenimax does things. When ZOS makes changes they apply it to the entire system. Crates, Barrels and such belongs to bandits that is in the cave.
Its not just the fact that getting your basic materials is now going to be stealing, your also going to be left open for being pk'd in a PvE environment.
I really doubt that, this system will just mean that you you try to take the easy road and steal from convienent close stuff in cities from friendly NPCs you run the risk of having to pay for it. otheriwse leave the the city and search the map, abandon houses, ramdom caravan wrecks and yes anything from aggresive mobs places like bandit hide outs will be up for grabs without being stealing. its a very simple , but everyone always assumes the worse for everything and wants to have everything handed to them and to take the easy road. I gurentee you 90% of teh crates and barrels in the game on the map will not be considered stealing, Only the ones you choose to steal from friendly people in towns.0 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I wonder if these will effect the armor and weps we just got the ability to pick up, seems kinda weird atm when you can just steal all the blacksmiths weps from the forge lol
Yes, if you steal it, it will have value. Otherwise if you just take it as normal, it will be valueless like it is right now.0 -
XquixoticalX✭✭✭XquixoticalX wrote: »I gotta say, if @zdkazz is correct, it will be hard not to accidentally hit R and incur a bounty. When I'm gathering foodstuffs things are moving so fast and it's like reflex. It would be safer if the containers owned by NPCs were either a different color or a different design than unowned containers. I already choose not to loot certain containers because I know they never contain something I want. I can learn not to touch owned containers too.
perhapse you should bind your ult to a different key lol,
back on subject tho, I wonder if these will effect the armor and weps we just got the ability to pick up, seems kinda weird atm when you can just steal all the blacksmiths weps from the forge lol
Binding R to something else is actually not a bad idea, at leas for a week or so after the update to get used to things.
~ Belle Folie
"I'm here to kick ass and eat sweetrolls. And I'm all out of sweetrolls."0 -
zdkazz✭✭✭✭I wonder if these will effect the armor and weps we just got the ability to pick up, seems kinda weird atm when you can just steal all the blacksmiths weps from the forge lol
Yes, if you steal it, it will have value. Otherwise if you just take it as normal, it will be valueless like it is right now.
lol, just lol, so if im standing hes cool with me grabbing everything in his store that he spent all that time making, but if i stand a little lower now its an issue, seems legit lol /sarcasm0 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I wonder if these will effect the armor and weps we just got the ability to pick up, seems kinda weird atm when you can just steal all the blacksmiths weps from the forge lol
Yes, if you steal it, it will have value. Otherwise if you just take it as normal, it will be valueless like it is right now.
lol, just lol, so if im standing hes cool with me grabbing everything in his store that he spent all that time making, but if i stand a little lower now its an issue, seems legit lol /sarcasm
If you need to RP it :P then just pretend your friend the blacksmith's apprentice just made a few crappy fail weaps and you might as well take them, because they suck so much.2 -
XquixoticalX✭✭✭It would be so easy to settle this. Seriously, we just want to be informed. Would it be so hard for someone official to pop in and drop some knowledge on us?
@ZOS_GinaBruno ? @ZOS_MichelleA ?
Bueller?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS6f1MKpLGM Edited by XquixoticalX on July 24, 2014 11:18PM~ Belle Folie
"I'm here to kick ass and eat sweetrolls. And I'm all out of sweetrolls."1 -
zdkazz✭✭✭✭I wonder if these will effect the armor and weps we just got the ability to pick up, seems kinda weird atm when you can just steal all the blacksmiths weps from the forge lol
Yes, if you steal it, it will have value. Otherwise if you just take it as normal, it will be valueless like it is right now.
lol, just lol, so if im standing hes cool with me grabbing everything in his store that he spent all that time making, but if i stand a little lower now its an issue, seems legit lol /sarcasm
If you need to RP it :P then just pretend your friend the blacksmith's apprentice just made a few crappy fail weaps and you might as well take them, because they suck so much.
he sounds like an upstanding guy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oShTJ90fC34&
the elder scrolls series has always been about realism in a fantasy setting the system you are talking about is so unrealistic, i just cant see it going in.1 -
aipex8_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Babylon, maybe to save face you should just say you don't know and wait until we get word from a dev. If after all this passionate arguing, your opinion (and it is just an opinion) is proven wrong you're going to have a lot of crow to eat.
I'm sure just like other TES games, stealing is stealing, standing or crouching. Also like other TES games, there will probably be many places you can loot containers (even in cities) that won't be stealing.2 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Yet you CAN see how the whole town has suddenly started murdering every single person around, and watching the banker take 500000 hits because he's magically unkillable?the elder scrolls series has always been about realism in a fantasy setting the system you are talking about is so unrealistic, i just cant see it going in.
2