Justice System impact on Provisioning skill and motif/recipe farming? ZOS please help with answer...

XquixoticalX

Will there be a new way to obtain provisioning ingredients in the future, or will all provisioners have to resort to sneaking around towns and stealing?

Also I wonder what impact this will have on farming containers for motifs and recipes and such. If opening containers in public areas and removing their contents is considered stealing, how will we obtain motifs in the future?

Edit: This post has grown large rather quickly, so it's clearly something more than a few people are either confused or curious about. It would be wonderful if someone from ZOS would pop in and lay some knowledge on us.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ - you're getting the batsignal because you're the admin I see replying to threads most often!

To summarize... including my inquiry above, the main questions we have are:

1. Will it be stealing to loot all containers in cities, or just certain ones?
2. Is the stealing action only initiated when the player is in a crouch, or is all looting stealing?
3. What is the future for motifs and recipes that normally have been found in containers within banks or taverns?

kitsinni

It seems like it will have to make provisioning ingredients more expensive and harder to get. I would think they need to increase the amount you get to make it worth doing. Maybe the thieves guild will passives that significantly reduce your chance of getting caught.

XquixoticalX

If that's the case, then provisioners would have to put skill points into thieves guild just to continue doing their craft as before. How is this fair in relation to the other crafting skills? It's not becoming "theft" to collect alchemy reagents or blacksmithing ores for example. What if we don't want to join thieves guild skill line? What if I want to be an honorable provisioner who joins the guards?

What happened to play your way? Just seems like this change will be forcing provisioners into being on the wrong side of the justice system. Just like the game forced templars who want to succeed into wearing light armor and waving sticks. I'm generally not a complainer and I'm not trying to be negative, but this presents a legitimate problem in my opinion and I'm just curious.

kitsinni

XquixoticalX wrote: »

If that's the case, then provisioners would have to put skill points into thieves guild just to continue doing their craft as before. How is this fair in relation to the other crafting skills? It's not becoming "theft" to collect alchemy reagents or blacksmithing ores for example. What if we don't want to join thieves guild skill line? What if I want to be an honorable provisioner who joins the guards?

What happened to play your way? Just seems like this change will be forcing provisioners into being on the wrong side of the justice system. Just like the game forced templars who want to succeed into wearing light armor and waving sticks.

You might be getting a little worked up over a hypothetical. Maybe they will add vendors with the mats or other ways to get them. Maybe I am completely wrong. Also you can always buy from other players.

nerevarine1138

I would assume that (just as in the single-player series) not every container is considered private property. There are plenty of containers outside of cities.

XquixoticalX

kitsinni wrote: »

You might be getting a little worked up over a hypothetical. Maybe they will add vendors with the mats or other ways to get them. Maybe I am completely wrong. Also you can always buy from other players.

In both cases, it is creating a system in which a certain crafting skill line either now has to BUY or STEAL his materials. It's bad enough that some recipes ALREADY require bought ingredients. None of the other crafting skills require even ONE item that can be bought from a vendor.

XquixoticalX

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

I would assume that (just as in the single-player series) not every container is considered private property. There are plenty of containers outside of cities.

Very true, but anyone who has maxed Provisioning and dumped the max amount of skill points into it and does it as one of their main crafting skills knows that towns are the best places for provisioning mats. Specifically inns, banks, and taverns.

Same goes for recipes and motifs.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

I would assume that (just as in the single-player series) not every container is considered private property. There are plenty of containers outside of cities.

Agreed. I would also assume this is why motif drops were nerfed. Since the justice system didn't make in time to stop people from robbing houses blind, they had to slow down the farming.

kitsinni

XquixoticalX wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

You might be getting a little worked up over a hypothetical. Maybe they will add vendors with the mats or other ways to get them. Maybe I am completely wrong. Also you can always buy from other players.

In both cases, it is creating a system in which a certain crafting skill line either now has to BUY or STEAL his materials. It's bad enough that some recipes ALREADY require bought ingredients. None of the other crafting skills require even ONE item that can be bought from a vendor.

Based 100% on a guess .. well yes but it could very well not be that way at all. There could be open containers, they could have nodes you find mats at there could be any number of other possibilities.

Kewljag_66_ESO

XquixoticalX wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

You might be getting a little worked up over a hypothetical. Maybe they will add vendors with the mats or other ways to get them. Maybe I am completely wrong. Also you can always buy from other players.

In both cases, it is creating a system in which a certain crafting skill line either now has to BUY or STEAL his materials. It's bad enough that some recipes ALREADY require bought ingredients. None of the other crafting skills require even ONE item that can be bought from a vendor.

Did you play Skyrim? Its only containers in cities or friendly NPCs that it would be considered stealing from. You can go into any dungeon, hideout, camp or just any "bad guy" place and take from those containers WITHOUT it being stealing.

babylon

There will be no change at all. To steal you need to be crouching...if you're crouching the use action on the container will change from "search" to "steal".

If you're not crouching you get the container loot same as always.

Stolen goods will have a gold price, while normally obtained goods won't have a gold price.

Justice System: You can take items from crates etc as normal but instead now you are stealing items. Items will have value if they are stolen. To steal something, you need to be hidden.

Also it's likely that people won't be able to sell their stolen goods to other players.

zdkazz

Kewljag_66_ESO wrote: »

XquixoticalX wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

You might be getting a little worked up over a hypothetical. Maybe they will add vendors with the mats or other ways to get them. Maybe I am completely wrong. Also you can always buy from other players.

In both cases, it is creating a system in which a certain crafting skill line either now has to BUY or STEAL his materials. It's bad enough that some recipes ALREADY require bought ingredients. None of the other crafting skills require even ONE item that can be bought from a vendor.

Did you play Skyrim? Its only containers in cities or friendly NPCs that it would be considered stealing from. You can go into any dungeon, hideout, camp or just any "bad guy" place and take from those containers WITHOUT it being stealing.

alot of the containers in towns like in oblivion were free for alls, the only ones marked as stealing were in peoples houses and the once spcifically owned by people, most of the containers around town you could loot without stealing.

starlizard70ub17_ESO

The uncertainty on how the justice systemis going to affect things, is the reason why I'm leveling up a charactor to level 50 provisioning while I can still get the mats now. Rather then waiting to see what happens with it. And from what I've seen in towns over the last week, several other people are doing provisioning mat gathering at a faster pace also. I'd suggest taking alittle time to get the mats now just in case provision mats get really difficult or exspensive to get later on.

ebunts14_ESO

Kewljag_66_ESO wrote: »

XquixoticalX wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

You might be getting a little worked up over a hypothetical. Maybe they will add vendors with the mats or other ways to get them. Maybe I am completely wrong. Also you can always buy from other players.

In both cases, it is creating a system in which a certain crafting skill line either now has to BUY or STEAL his materials. It's bad enough that some recipes ALREADY require bought ingredients. None of the other crafting skills require even ONE item that can be bought from a vendor.

Did you play Skyrim? Its only containers in cities or friendly NPCs that it would be considered stealing from. You can go into any dungeon, hideout, camp or just any "bad guy" place and take from those containers WITHOUT it being stealing.

Well this isn't Skyrim and its not how Zenimax does things. When ZOS makes changes they apply it to the entire system. Crates, Barrels and such belongs to bandits that is in the cave.

Its not just the fact that getting your basic materials is now going to be stealing, your also going to be left open for being pk'd in a PvE environment.

XquixoticalX

babylon wrote: »

There will be no change at all. To steal you need to be crouching...if you're crouching the use action on the container will change from "search" to "steal".

If you're not crouching you get the container loot same as always.

Stolen goods will have a gold price, while normally obtained goods won't have a gold price.

Justice System: You can take items from crates etc as normal but instead now you are stealing items. Items will have value if they are stolen. To steal something, you need to be hidden.

Also it's likely that people won't be able to sell their stolen goods to other players.

Ok this sets me at ease.

Azzuria

If the Justice System makes motifs, recipes and foodstuffs more rare then those who have them will be able to sell them for more gold. People who've put lots of points into Provisioning will be able to leverage that into cooking-for-cash.

It'll make the economy more diverse and that's a good thing.

DenverRalphy

babylon wrote: »

There will be no change at all. To steal you need to be crouching...if you're crouching the use action on the container will change from "search" to "steal".

If you're not crouching you get the container loot same as always.

Stolen goods will have a gold price, while normally obtained goods won't have a gold price.

Justice System: You can take items from crates etc as normal but instead now you are stealing items. Items will have value if they are stolen. To steal something, you need to be hidden.

Also it's likely that people won't be able to sell their stolen goods to other players.

Oh boy are you way off. Whether you're crouching or not makes no difference. Taking the items is stealing either way. Crouching/sneaking simply increases your chance of looting it without getting caught.

XquixoticalX

DenverRalphy wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

There will be no change at all. To steal you need to be crouching...if you're crouching the use action on the container will change from "search" to "steal".

If you're not crouching you get the container loot same as always.

Stolen goods will have a gold price, while normally obtained goods won't have a gold price.

Justice System: You can take items from crates etc as normal but instead now you are stealing items. Items will have value if they are stolen. To steal something, you need to be hidden.

Also it's likely that people won't be able to sell their stolen goods to other players.

Oh boy are you way off. Whether you're crouching or not makes no difference. Taking the items is stealing either way. Crouching/sneaking simply increases your chance of looting it without getting caught.

So who is right? Anyone from ZOS care to weigh in? And if this commenter is correct that any and all container loot will be stealing regardless of crouching, how do you propose provisioners find materials after the update?

Tremulous

I get a majority of my mats out in the wild not in towns.

babylon

DenverRalphy wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

There will be no change at all. To steal you need to be crouching...if you're crouching the use action on the container will change from "search" to "steal".

If you're not crouching you get the container loot same as always.

Stolen goods will have a gold price, while normally obtained goods won't have a gold price.

Justice System: You can take items from crates etc as normal but instead now you are stealing items. Items will have value if they are stolen. To steal something, you need to be hidden.

Also it's likely that people won't be able to sell their stolen goods to other players.

Oh boy are you way off. Whether you're crouching or not makes no difference. Taking the items is stealing either way. Crouching/sneaking simply increases your chance of looting it without getting caught.

Nope - to steal you need to be crouching. Read the quote above, it explains everything.

XquixoticalX

Tremulous wrote: »

I get a majority of my mats out in the wild not in towns.

Looting barrels and stuff in dungeons yields provisioning mats, but I don't know where else you are finding them topside out in the world. There aren't crates and barrels just laying around out in the wild. Sometimes there are a few along the roadside, but it's nothing compared to a tavern which will have like 40 lootable containers with food items in them.

DenverRalphy

XquixoticalX wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

There will be no change at all. To steal you need to be crouching...if you're crouching the use action on the container will change from "search" to "steal".

If you're not crouching you get the container loot same as always.

Stolen goods will have a gold price, while normally obtained goods won't have a gold price.

Justice System: You can take items from crates etc as normal but instead now you are stealing items. Items will have value if they are stolen. To steal something, you need to be hidden.

Also it's likely that people won't be able to sell their stolen goods to other players.

Oh boy are you way off. Whether you're crouching or not makes no difference. Taking the items is stealing either way. Crouching/sneaking simply increases your chance of looting it without getting caught.

So who is right? Anyone from ZOS care to weigh in? And if this commenter is correct that any and all container loot will be stealing regardless of crouching, how do you propose provisioners find materials after the update?

Just like every other ES game. Not all containers are flagged for stealing. ie.. Containers in guild halls of which you are a member will not be considered stealing. Cities/Towns of which you have completed their quest lines will grant you "free reign" as their Savior, at which time those city/town containers are free to loot from (excepting sometimes those owned by specific vendors/merchants).

babylon

DenverRalphy wrote: »

XquixoticalX wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

There will be no change at all. To steal you need to be crouching...if you're crouching the use action on the container will change from "search" to "steal".

If you're not crouching you get the container loot same as always.

Stolen goods will have a gold price, while normally obtained goods won't have a gold price.

Justice System: You can take items from crates etc as normal but instead now you are stealing items. Items will have value if they are stolen. To steal something, you need to be hidden.

Also it's likely that people won't be able to sell their stolen goods to other players.

Oh boy are you way off. Whether you're crouching or not makes no difference. Taking the items is stealing either way. Crouching/sneaking simply increases your chance of looting it without getting caught.

So who is right? Anyone from ZOS care to weigh in? And if this commenter is correct that any and all container loot will be stealing regardless of crouching, how do you propose provisioners find materials after the update?

snip

Nope it will be the same, just crouching changes the action. Containers will still have free loot for the provisioners, and crafters don't have to get involved in the justice system at all.

I would guess stolen goods can no longer be used to craft with anyway, they'll need to be disposed of at a fence.

DenverRalphy

babylon wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

There will be no change at all. To steal you need to be crouching...if you're crouching the use action on the container will change from "search" to "steal".

If you're not crouching you get the container loot same as always.

Stolen goods will have a gold price, while normally obtained goods won't have a gold price.

Justice System: You can take items from crates etc as normal but instead now you are stealing items. Items will have value if they are stolen. To steal something, you need to be hidden.

Also it's likely that people won't be able to sell their stolen goods to other players.

Oh boy are you way off. Whether you're crouching or not makes no difference. Taking the items is stealing either way. Crouching/sneaking simply increases your chance of looting it without getting caught.

Nope - to steal you need to be crouching. Read the quote above, it explains everything.

You need to be crouching/stealth to Successfully steal. Standing upright doesn't make those items free to take.

babylon

DenverRalphy wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

There will be no change at all. To steal you need to be crouching...if you're crouching the use action on the container will change from "search" to "steal".

If you're not crouching you get the container loot same as always.

Stolen goods will have a gold price, while normally obtained goods won't have a gold price.

Justice System: You can take items from crates etc as normal but instead now you are stealing items. Items will have value if they are stolen. To steal something, you need to be hidden.

Also it's likely that people won't be able to sell their stolen goods to other players.

Oh boy are you way off. Whether you're crouching or not makes no difference. Taking the items is stealing either way. Crouching/sneaking simply increases your chance of looting it without getting caught.

Nope - to steal you need to be crouching. Read the quote above, it explains everything.

You need to be crouching/stealth to Successfully steal. Standing upright doesn't make those items free to take.

No you don't need to not be seen to steal. You can steal at any time, right in front of a guard - just getting seen means you get caught.

To get the steal action, you'll need to be crouching.

radiostar

I wonder when they say in cities, are they including the docks/ships? That's a prime loot place for foodstuffs.

DenverRalphy

babylon wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

There will be no change at all. To steal you need to be crouching...if you're crouching the use action on the container will change from "search" to "steal".

If you're not crouching you get the container loot same as always.

Stolen goods will have a gold price, while normally obtained goods won't have a gold price.

Justice System: You can take items from crates etc as normal but instead now you are stealing items. Items will have value if they are stolen. To steal something, you need to be hidden.

Also it's likely that people won't be able to sell their stolen goods to other players.

Oh boy are you way off. Whether you're crouching or not makes no difference. Taking the items is stealing either way. Crouching/sneaking simply increases your chance of looting it without getting caught.

Nope - to steal you need to be crouching. Read the quote above, it explains everything.

You need to be crouching/stealth to Successfully steal. Standing upright doesn't make those items free to take.

No you don't need to not be seen to steal. You can steal at any time, right in front of a guard - just getting seen means you get caught.

To get the steal action, you'll need to be crouching.

Where are you coming to the conclusion that you need to be crouching to get the steal action? The items in a container are flagged as stealing (in red) whether you're crouching or not. Where exactly are you getting anything different from that?

babylon

DenverRalphy wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

There will be no change at all. To steal you need to be crouching...if you're crouching the use action on the container will change from "search" to "steal".

If you're not crouching you get the container loot same as always.

Stolen goods will have a gold price, while normally obtained goods won't have a gold price.

Justice System: You can take items from crates etc as normal but instead now you are stealing items. Items will have value if they are stolen. To steal something, you need to be hidden.

Also it's likely that people won't be able to sell their stolen goods to other players.

Oh boy are you way off. Whether you're crouching or not makes no difference. Taking the items is stealing either way. Crouching/sneaking simply increases your chance of looting it without getting caught.

Nope - to steal you need to be crouching. Read the quote above, it explains everything.

You need to be crouching/stealth to Successfully steal. Standing upright doesn't make those items free to take.

No you don't need to not be seen to steal. You can steal at any time, right in front of a guard - just getting seen means you get caught.

To get the steal action, you'll need to be crouching.

Where are you coming to the conclusion that you need to be crouching to get the steal action? The items in a container are flagged as stealing (in red) whether you're crouching or not. Where exactly are you getting anything different from that?

It states you need to be hidden (crouching) to steal items, and that items will have value IF stolen. This implies that items don't have value if they are not stolen...so items will be taken from containers as normal unless players are crouched. This will bring up the "steal" action instead of the "search" action.

Also it's been stated that you can't sell stolen items normally, you have to find a special NPC to sell them to (a fence)...so it's likely the items won't be able to be crafted with either.

XquixoticalX

28 comments in just under an hour, maybe a ZOS person will come settle this argument eventually.

Tremulous

Personally I don't see an issue. If anything they might even add in a vendor to buy mats from. No more waiting for that silly hireling to send you those rare tomatoes.

XquixoticalX

Tremulous wrote: »

Personally I don't see an issue. If anything they might even add in a vendor to buy mats from. No more waiting for that silly hireling to send you those rare tomatoes.

Don't you see the problem with this? Blacksmithers don't have to buy ingots.